We're very lucky to have Elana here who has a first-person view on the Israeli-Palestine conflict.  To keep things neat, I'm giving her her own thread.

I'm going to copy her previous posts over to avoid confusion.


Well about the wall, I can't disagree with it, Bethlehem is the home of many fanatics, perhaps you remember some years back when a large number barricaded themselves in the Church of the Manger, I’m not sure if that’s the correct name, the Church that is on the spot where it is believed that Christ was born. Bethlehem is too close to Jerusalem and various suburbs not to have strong security around it and a wall is the simplest way to do it.

Also Palestine isn't the only ones who have had to give up certain freedoms for safety, a person can't drive into a car park here without having the car and bags searched, the same goes for the fact that if a person wants to go into a shopping mall, a government building or even a restaurant or many other places that they have to allow themselves and any bags they are carrying be searched. The funny thing is I personally don't feel safe in places where they don't search people, I lived in Ireland for a few years and I never got over the feeling that I wasn't safe because they didn't search people. And need I mention the fact that almost everyone is drafted into the Army in Israel? But Israeli's are willing to live with these sacrifices for safety.

As for the wall being built on Palestain land, well I personally don't think it is right, much of the wall was built during Sharon's tenor as Prime Minister and there is many things he did that I feel was wrong.

Why would anyone want to invade Switzerland or Costa Rica, what vast natural resources do these countries have, do they threaten the borders of neighboring countries?

quote:
Vexen wrote:
Also, keep in mind that this is true of any extremist fanatics, regardless of religion (or the lack there of). The Crusades and Inquisitions, the Salem Witch Trials, McCarthyism, and the Virginia Tech shootings are proof enough of that. Not a point against what you're saying, but simply clarifying, as it does seem like you're pointing at just the obvious, and it could be easy to think you're just ganging up on the Muslims.

Nope I have no problems with Muslims, just the fanatics, when I lived aboard I had a couple of good friends who were Pakistani Muslims, we had no problems getting along and in fact had allot in common, as we shared many dietary traditions and other customs. I found many of the locals had almost no knowledge of Islam or Judaism and found the customary fasting during Ramadan very strange to say nothing of the traditions of ultra orthodox Jews, one person asked me if I had to be covered head to toe like many orthodox Muslim women, and they thought I was pulling their legs when I tried to explain what a kibbutz was to them.

quote:
katisara wrote:
Never instigate a war against another power, only fight a war someone else brought to you.

99% of the time I would agree with this rule, but as with most rules there are exceptions, and that exception was the Six Day War.


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There’s places up in north Israel that are being bombed daily but does it appear on the international news no, there’s a few towns that are basically living in their bomb shelters, I remember seeing a local report recently about how the children were spending Chanukah in the bomb shelters. Now I know I'm biased but I find it hard to understand people who think Israel is the big bully picking on Palestine, when it is the other way round, Israel is surrounded on all sides by countries with large populations. But in spite of that Israel is willing to share.

I know that America's war on Iraq is a very hot button topic in the US but frankly I personally am glad that Saddam was taken care of, I think he was building to be another Hitler and I'm glad he's dead. However the situation America now finds itself in is difficult, I'm sure most of the US brass would love to pullout of Iraq but if that happened the country would disintegrate into warring factions which would probably spill over onto Iraq's neighbors and considering how touchy they are it would start a war no one wants. Yes some terrible things happen, not everyone is angels and even the best people can break due to stress and make them do monstrous things, I don't think the army paper pushers understands that sometimes when you hear certain stories of some soldiers serving in Iraq.

Some things in America do worry me though about the current situation, how it seems it whittling down certain civil liberties that was part of the American ethos. How if you speak against the war or the government a person is thought to be un-American and a possible danger. How a person can be charged with terrorism and be held for an indefinite time without seeing a lawyer. There are other examples I could speak of but I don't know the whole issue, I know that if people want security there are certain sacrifices that have to be made but it does feel as if these changes are using security as an excuse.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:45, Sat 29 Dec 2007.

re: Sacrifice - there's no question Israelis are sacrificing a lot.  I am glad I don't have to suffer the daily threat of bombs or terrorist attacks like that.  However there's a difference between forcing oneself to sacrifice for something and forcing someone else to.

I hadn't realized how long it had taken to build the wall.  I suppose that makes sense - if parts of the wall are already built, you take advantage of that instead of spending lots and lots of money building a new one.

You brought up civil liberties and how you're sad the US seems to be losing them, yet only one post before you mention how you have to consent to searches everywhere you go.  Freedom from being searched is considered a basic US liberty (not that you'd know visiting DC now).  How do you marry those two?



This whole topic is fascinating to me in part because, as an American, a lot of the details seem alien.  The conflict is based off of land claims going back literally to the time of Moses, some six thousand years ago?  Most Americans are lucky if we remember who we elected as president four years ago.  They say the US has no memory, but it would                                                                                                                                                                                                             appear this conflict is based off of literally ancient ties, and ideals of honor, pride and justice going back generations.  I feel like every time I sit down to study it I learn something new that completely shifts how I view the situation.

It is unfortunate there's a small group of individuals willing to kill innocents (which is in direct violation of the Koran, by the by) in order to try and push an extremist agenda, but overall from here it would seem both sides are making tremendous progress in an issue which really should take generations to solve.  Unfortunately, in the mean time, Israel continues to come across as the kicking dog...

(Alright, little boy demands attention, so I'll cut it short...)

Frankly, I've always sided on Israel on this.  I think it is a shame that the Palestinians get more aid then other people groups.  Having a peaceful demonstration is one thing, blowing up buses and malls is another.  The religious leaders that teach these things should also be held accountable.

The other thing that gets me is how Palestinians and the other Arab nations don't get along.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan  for example

How exactly is this a bad thing? Believe me the various Arab states get along fine in most situations.

Sorry if I’m a little defensive, as I have said i lived for a few years in Dublin, and there the sentiment is quite anti Israel and the US, and I got the feeling that much of Europe feels the same way. I do think that that is partly Israel's fault, when something happens here and representatives of the government are interviewed by CNN or such they often come off sounding defensive, I wish they would appoint Bibi Netanyah as the national spokesperson of the government as he is among the few that I have seen speak well when interviewed, I'm not a fan of his but he does have a silver tongue.

There is many things wrong with certain Israeli security policies in my opinion, bull dozing the home of the family of a suicide bomber is one of them. But did you know that when Saddam was in power he used to offer 25,000 dollars to the family of a suicide bomber and an additional 11,000 to any family member that lost their home because of the bombers actions?

There was a bomber a couple of years back that was stopped at one of the check points, he suffered from some type of retardation, he had been convinced that the only way he would ever have sex was if he blew himself up, thankfully he was stopped, the soldiers were able to stop him and managed to convince him to cut off the suicide harness.

Israel does a lot of good world wide that it never gets credit for, which I personally feel is a shame. Israel is almost always among the first countries to offer aid when there been a disaster, when Katrina devastated New Orleans many countries offered to help but were turned away because of security issues, but Israel was the only country allowed to help. Another thing Israel does is offer scholarships to deserving students in developing African nations, these aren't extra spots, there is no such thing here, people sometimes have to go aboard so that they can learn what they want especially in medicine.

I think it is a bad thing because the people groups that feel so displaced by having a jewish state in what used to be an islamic state can't find places in other countries.  If I was unhappy living in one part of the US, I'd go move to another part, why can't the Palestinians do this in the middle east?

Paulos, this goes back to what I said earlier.  Americans have no sense of history.  If someone told me to move out of my home, I'd grump and fuss, but I'd do it, and in twenty years I'd be like 'man, I sure am glad they got me before I'd paid a few more years into my mortgage.  I miss that place, but it's nice here.'  But I never felt I had any divine right to be there.  My parents never lived there, no children were born there.  It's just a house.

Imagine if someone forced you to change religions and it's a bit more accurate.  All of my family were born into my church, as far back as I care to name, all of them were baptized, all of them shared this central string no matter where they lived or what language they spoke.  It is promised to us by God and we're guaranteed a spot within it.  It's part of our identity.


Israeli security seems to be stuck between Iraq and a hard place (haha, I crack me up!)  You have a group of mostly peaceful Palestinians on one side, mostly peaceful Israelis on the other, both hosting extremist individuals.  An extremist Palestinian goes and kills a bunch of Israelis.  Israel can't politically ignore the situation, and so they have to pursue somehow.  However, in doing so there are oftentimes unfortunate casualties as these extremists are living in population centers, effectively using innocents as cover.  When an Israeli person shoots an innocent Palestinian, especially a child, the community doesn't blame the person the Israelis were pursuing, but blame Israel itself.  They remember when a bunch of Israelis burst in, starting shooting and killed little Timmy.  Next time the Israelis burst in, they're a lot more difficult and, unfortunately, more likely to get someone innocent shot again.

Let me correct one misunderstanding, the current conflict between Jews and Arabs is something that hasn't been going on hundreds of years, in fact in the past centuries Jews were often treated better in Muslim countries then in western ones that had many unfair rules against Jews. The present conflict goes back about ninty years or so, the people of both beliefs believe that we are decended from Abraham, Jews from Isac and Muslims from Ismael, there basicly being two differences in belief, Judasim believes the massiah is yet to come where as Christians and Muslims both believe the massiah has already come. The other difference of opinion is who Abraham was going to sacrifice.

My wife taught at a private Orthodox Jewish school.  One day, a student did a project interviewing the other students about the conflict with Palestine.  Several of the students said things like they should just kill the Palestinians or other such things.  This type of idea was immediately squelched (thankfully) by the director, who demonstrated that love and compassion was much better.

So I think it is a human issue as well as (or even more than) a religious one.  Passion gets in there and sometimes smothers a more god-like compassion.

___

On the other topic, there is a sect of Judaism, the "Messianic Jews," who also believe that the Messiah has come already.

When I was young and lived in England I also went to an Orthodox Jewish school, we were taught some things about Israel and to support it. You need o remember the children interviewed were children and children tend to see things as an eye for an eye type mentality. I'm not saying that there aren't those that share that belief but I believe the majority of Israeli's want peace, however you need two sides to be willing to make peace and while Hamas is in control of Palestine, Israel has no partner for peace.

I believe i know of the "Messianic Jews", they're the ones who believe the leader of their group was the massiah correct? And that he died a few years back right? If we're thinking of the same group they're not taken seriously here. But then there tends to be a bit of a rift between the orthodox and secular Jews here in Israel.

messianic jews are more along the lines that they follow the Torah, and jewish culture, but believe Jesus christ is the messiah, and that He did fulfill the prophecies.

So in that respect, they would be considered more christian, that following the jewish religion.

Over all, jewish and messianic jews should be near identical in faith, and the only difference should be when the Christ comes, whether it'll be His first or second time.

Ahhh them, yes I've heard of them, it seems to me as if they are returning to the original belief before the church was set up, personally I believe that Christ's (though I don't believe he was massiah, I think he might have been a talented healer) intent was to reform the leadership of the Jewish faith not start a new one.

Now for a bit of controvesy, what do you think of the whole Da Vinci Code thing? Yes I know it was simply a book but the story was built on a real scroll, I know there is a hole which prevent us from being sure as to what it said, but what do you think of it? Do you think it might be a fake? though I think there has been considerable proof saying it isn't, though many artifacts are a bit suspect currently because of the actions of one man who set out to defraud many private collecters and museams.

I assume the scroll was real, could be a real scroll with mistkes. Not sure. Either way, the Divinci Code is just a story. I'm not overly concerned with it in itself. Though I am aware that people walk away with a different impression then what the scroll may have originally said.

Shesh that was a quick reply, lol.

Well might I say that I have always thought it strange that Jesus wasn't married, at that time men of his age were usually married in the Jewish culture that he wasn't is very unusual.

Ok what about the so called Scroll of Judas, have you heard of it? If so what do you think of it?

The short answer is this, what about Jesus is usual?

The long answer is that the new testament mentions Jesus's father, mother, siblings, but mentions nothing about a wife.

Also there was a jewish group called the Essenes who remained unmarried by choice. This is to point out while not typical, it was not unusual either. There's no command to be married, that was just the culture, and Jesus made quite a few changes away from culture, didn't He?

I don't know anything about the scroll of Judas. Anything that stands out?

Normally I'd put this in a new topic, since whether Jesus had kids or not has very little relation to the Israeli-Palestine conflict, but it would seem the answers are coming out pretty fast :P

We discussed the Da Vinci code thing a few years back.  On Heath's recommendation, I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail (the book Da Vinci code is based on).  However it has later come to light that much of the basic material used in both books was falsified by a fellow who apparently was trying to set himself up to become the new king of France or something crazy like that.  It was gobbled up by journalists who were more anxious to get a neat story than to do actual fact-checking.  There's little, if any evidence supporting the story.

The Testament of Judas?  I believe it was a scroll written by Christians, probably a gnostic sect, well after the death of Christ (barring the 'gnostic' part, that describes most of the books of the New Testament, however).  I haven't read it, but I don't believe it's divinely inspired right now.  If you're interested in that stuff, I'd highly recommend reading the Book of Thomas, which is a fascinating study.

To get things back towards the main topic here, here's my thoughts on the Israel-palestine conflict:  Both sides have committed many horrible acts, and continue to do so pretty much every day.  Both use the past actions of the other side to justify their actions, rather than trying to figure out a way forward.  Granted, in both sides there are a lot of people who want peace, and who would be happy to find a compromise, and it's a comparatively small group who keep the fires going.  However, those peaceful majorities don't seem to do a very good job of stopping the harmful minorities.  The situation is pretty messed up at this point, and a lot of people on each side have become so angry at the other, that often it seems unlikely to me that there will be a solution any time soon.  If there is to be one, I think it'll have to have some of the following properties:

First and foremost, both sides will have to accept the other's right to exist.  Israel will have to accept that there should be a palestinian state (which I think it has accepted for the most part), and the palestinians will have to accept the Israel will exist (which most palestinians seem to accept, but Hamas in particular does not, which is a big stumbling block).  That would go a long way right there.

The borders of the two states seems like they should be pre '67 borders, as that's more or less what the world seems to think is fair.  That means Jewish settlers in palestine would need to be moved out, ideally with the option to immigrate from Isreal into palestine and return to their settlements, but that would have to be up to the palestinians, and if they don't want the settlers, the settlers would just have to swallow that pill.  The land simply doesn't legitimately belong to them.

The right of return is a non-starter for Israel, as it would put at risk it's right to exist.  A sudden influx of palestinians to Israel (which is democratic), could cause a political change of an existential nature, so palestinians just have to swallow the pill that not everyone is going to get to go back to their former homes.  That said, the palestinians must be fairly compensated for land and property lost.  I think an unbiased (as possible) third party should be employed to determine the fair market value for all property lost.  Isreal would be ultimately responsible for making that payment, though I'm guessing international contributions would probably make up a large part of it.

Damage from any continued attacks from the palestinians would have to be covered by the palestinian government, so that there would be an incentive to stop them.  Israel would have to agree to leave policing of attacks to the palestinians.  I think an international third party might be required to help deal with this, as Israelis would likely be very suspicious that the palestinians were policing their own to the best of their ability.

Both sides would have to set asside ancient and/or religious claims to the land.  That kind of question simply isn't something that can be negotiated.  If God is really on one side or the other, let Him sort it out Himself.  Until that point, humans need to do what they can, and that means not assuming any divine rights that the other side doesn't accept.

Palestinian prisoners who have not already been convicted of crimes would probably have to be returned to the palestinian government's custody, which probably means set free in many cases.  That's a pill Israel will just have to swallow.  After the palestinian state forms, any further criminals arrested in Isreal would go into Israeli custody and be dealt with by Israeli law.

Hmm, probably a lot more should go into that, but that's what I've got at the moment.  For a liberal, I'd say I'm fairly sympathetic towards Israel, though not so much as the average american probably would be.  I definately don't like that Isreal receives more of our foreign aid than any other country.  I think there are many other places in the world (and many places in the US for that matter), that need it more at the moment.

I just wanted to say, this seems like the best idea I've seen in a long time.

They believe Jesus is the Messiah.  They are almost like Jewish Christians.  I tend to find that these Jews are most like the LDS church in many ways.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism

Ok lets reply to this on a point by point summery.


Israel acknowledged the Palestine state a while back, it is most of the Arab states that refuse to acknowledge Israel’s existence.


Setting the clock back and redrawing the map is impossible now, much of the territory taken in '67 was taken for security issues, those security issue still exist thirty years later. However did you miss seeing on the news last year that many settlers were relocated and their settlements dismantled? Israel did give back a lot of land and those places are now Palestine, in fact there is a Palestinian town just a ten minute drive from where I live, Israeli's aren't allowed to enter, the majority of Arab towns and villages became Palestinian territory.


Your right in no way or how would Israel ever allow the right of return to the Palestinians, harsh I know but Tycho summed up the reasons why pretty well. Your right about the Palestinians being compensated if they have proof that their family formerly owned the land or property. (That sound all to like the Swiss banks and I would rather Israel not be compared to those thieves that call themselves bankers.) I'm just wondering who has an odd billion or so to give us to pay the Palestinians.


That is a difficult point because as of now the Palestinians have done no policing of the terrorist unless it is directed internally. One thing the western world has difficulty understanding is the overall mentality over here, the Arab nations tend to have a very macho outlook, Israel can't always allow others to defend our country because if we do it will be seen as weakness and that will be extending an invitation to anyone to attack us, and frankly Israel doesn't always do so well when it does allow others to defend what is ours. On paper having a third party to police things sounds fine but in reality I don't think it would work. Also might I say that this sounds a bit like the peace plan discussed in the West Wing? (TV show if someone doesn't know)


Easier said then done unfortunately, personally i would definitely agree to Old Jerusalem, Hebron and other religious hot spots being declared neutral territory, however that isn't taking into account the Ultra Orthodox over here who have a frightening amount of political clout. For those that don’t understand Israeli politics I'll explain briefly, Israel has a coalition government what that means is as follows instead of having two main political parties, Israel has many, anyone can set up a party here all you need is the votes, believe me there been some nutty ones, The Taxi Cab Coalition and the Marijuana Party are just two examples, though I think the Maryjane party actually got three seats....lol
Anyway in the last couple of elections Shas the Ultra Orthodox party has been gaining more and more power, last election Shas came out as the third strongest party, a very strong third, so they tend to vote in a block and no amount of political bribery would get them to give up their claim. These guys are nuts they still cant get over the fact that Mosque of the Rock is where it is, they want to start building the third Temple right now, they were shlapping big rocks up to the gates of Old Jerusalem just this summer. They consider anyone who is not orthodox as non Jewish, hell one of their main religious leaders once said on radio that those that died in the Holocaust deserved it as they obviously weren't devote enough, does that sound like sanity to you?


That is something Israel is learning to deal with we are releasing them a bit at a time, though we have still haven't gotten back our soldier who was kidnapped a couple of years back.


I was wondering when someone would bring this point up, allow me to clear up a few misunderstandings. To my knowledge Israel receives three billion from the US in foreign aid, however there is a condition attached to that money, Israel can only spend that money in the US on American products, so basically America is giving Israel money to help improve the American economy. I don't know if Israel receives more foreign aid then other countries, but I doubt it. America also gives aid to Israel's neighbors, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, I'm not sure about Syria, and they used to give aid to Palestine as well, at least that was before the Palestinians voted a terrorist organization into power. Each of these countries ges aid from the US to the tune of two billion dollars each. Now as to who should get aid or not and whether money should be spent on aid or not when there are so many that need help in the USA that’s something that you might want to bring up with your local politicians, just remember it's in America's interest to help Israel be as strong as possible, Israel is America's only real ally in the area, you might mention the Saudi's but they are hostile allies at best, and the people there are not happy about the American presence in their country.

Whew that was a long post, you know there's an old Yiddish saying, get three Jews together and you'll get five different arguments, that very much applies in Israel but it's more like ten different arguments. :)