A requested topic for Trust in the Lord.

From a religious Christian standpoint, you render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar.

I also had a tax attorney speak at my law school once with a religious twist on tax law.  He said something to the effect that God never meant by that that you should pay as much in taxes as you can (i.e. there's nothing wrong with legally minimizing your taxes through deductions, etc.).

I'm interested in discussing the idea of whether it is legal, or if it is just something people do.

What exactly does this mean?

I figured Heath would have an understanding of the subject clearly.

Are US taxes legal? Meaning is it truly illegal to not pay taxes. I notice plenty of groups that claim taxes are not constitutional. As a result, they refuse to pay taxes.

In other words, while many people pay their taxes, they don't have to. They just do. (according to the groups that don't pay taxes that is)

I've heard the same of canadian taxes, but I haven't seen anything conclusive however. US tax laws seem to be more fought, and opposed by more groups. Not sure if they have more to stand on, or if there are just more americans, and therefore more protesters.

And to be clear, I'm not asking if you will go to jail, I'd just to like make sure that the laws are there stating you must pay taxes if you are an american.

And to be clear, I'm not asking if you will go to jail, I'd just to like make sure that the laws are there stating you must pay taxes if you are an american.

Internal Revenue Code section 7201.

That helps. Who does that apply to?

Not me, cause I'm Canadian. That's the easy part. I'm not trying to trick anyone here. So please don't think I'm trying to create an impossible situation.

Who does that apply to? Does someone have to agree to the contract in order to be held to that?

Incidentally, this is in reference to income tax.

It's US law. If you try to evade or defeat taxes, you serve up to five years in jail and must pay a fine of up to one hundred thousand dollars.

. So please don't think I'm trying to create an impossible situation.

What I'm thinking is that you may not be fully clear on the meaning of the term legal. It is the law that you have to pay taxes, so paying taxes has to be legal by the very definition of the word.

Does someone have to agree to the contract in order to be held to that?

Do you honestly think that this is true? That a person has to agree to have the laws of the land enforced on him? Don't you think that's a little ridiculous?

'Frank here murdered sixteen people in cold blood in public, but since he didn't agree to a contract concerning the laws against murder, we can't put him on trial and lock him away.'

Incidentally, this is in reference to income tax.

Well then, since you're Canadian, you have to pay taxes because of the Tax Act.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:06, Sat 09 Aug 2008.

I realize people say that, I'm trying to confirm if that is actually specified, or if it is just done. Are people who don't pay income tax in the USA actually doing something illegal.

I'm not saying taxes are legal. I'm talking about not paying taxes being illegal.

For example, if you wanted to give me money, I wouldn't prevent you from doing so. If you like, I could even tell you how much money you should pay me. But if you don't pay me, you don't go to jail. There's no law saying you have to pay me. Is there a law that states you Falkus must pay me.


So, to be sure, I'm not saying if there are tax laws. I'm asking how is it defined in law on who is to pay, and why they must pay, etc.

Not as much as you think. When you go into a court of law, you have to place your handle on the bible, and swear to tell the truth.

They are asking you to agree to tell the truth. What if you don't agree?
When you sign a contract with your cell phone company, you are agreeing to their terms.
When you sign a driver's license, you're agreeing to the terms.


That's for the safety of others. How does Mike not paying taxes affect Tom? I am making a difference between taxes, and criminal activity.

I don't wan to confuse the argument with multiple points. Why don't we come back to canadian taxes after the american taxes are "finished".

I realize people say that, I'm trying to confirm if that is actually specified, or if it is just done. Are people who don't pay income tax in the USA actually doing something illegal.

It's not because people say that, it's because it's written into the tax code.

I'm not saying taxes are legal. I'm talking about not paying taxes being illegal.

Since you go to jail if you don't pay them, that's sort of a hint.

So, to be sure, I'm not saying if there are tax laws. I'm asking how is it defined in law on who is to pay, and why they must pay, etc.

That would be the tax code.

They are asking you to agree to tell the truth. What if you don't agree?

You're held in Contempt of Court and then jailed and/or fined.

hat's for the safety of others. How does Mike not paying taxes affect Tom? I am making a difference between taxes, and criminal activity.

Because without taxes, we'd have no roads, law enforcement, fire stations, hospitals, infrastructure, etc., etc. etc. These things do not magically appear, the government has to pay for them. Taxes are how they get the money to do so.

I don't wan to confuse the argument with multiple points. Why don't we come back to canadian taxes after the american taxes are "finished".

What confusion? You pay taxes or you go to jail. Specifics might differ, but they have the same general point.

And that's what I'm asking. I'm asking to see where it's specified who is to pay, why they must pay, etc.

It's not that easy. People in the states used to, (maybe still do) go to jail just because they had a spouse, or significant other who dealt drugs. The spouse or SO did not have to be involved, they just had to know the dealer, and allow them phone use, or to stay over night in their house, or accept a gift from the proceeds of the sales of drugs.

In other words, something enforced does not mean it is following what the law is trying to enforce.

Right, as I said, I don't see where it states who must pay, why they must pay, etc.

It was a point, I'll come back to this as it's a side point. I don't want to distract from trying to find out who is specified to pay income taxes.

I'm making a distinction of income taxes. I'm not saying sales tax, gas tax, etc aren't legal. The government can continue to generate profits from user fees, licensing, sales of commodities, etc

Because Canadian tax laws are not american tax laws. I want to make sure we stick to the original point, and not go off on off shoots until we have an answer that is clear. I can appreciate that people are stating the laws exist, I'm just asking to see if anyone knows where the specifics are located, and what they say.


No different than if someone asked me why I feel something is a sin, and my answer became a generic, "It's in the bible", and left nothing else, the person would have a start, but realistically it didn't answer their question. It just provided a start of many months of additional research. And that's if they don't lose track of the original point after months of reading thousands and thousands of details.

Don't you think the difference is pretty slim? If US don't pay its military to guard its nuclear warheads, for instance, bin Laden might steal one of them and detonate it in New York or Belgrade, for instance. That way people who don't pay taxes do endanger both people living in and out of US, both American citizens and people who are not.


It is pretty clear that US Congress has at one point or other (actually on numerous occasions) erected laws that force people to pay taxes, the question (pretty dumb, but not absolutely outside of realm of logic) is if US constitution permits them to bring such legislation. This is a view point of most fundamentalist of US conservatives who believe that the government can do only what is explicitly permitted by the constitution, while they can do anything they want as long as it is not explicitly forbidden by law (and sometimes even if it's against the law (including the constitution)).

And that's what I'm asking. I'm asking to see where it's specified who is to pay, why they must pay, etc.

In the tax code. I'm not an accountant, what more do you want? I'm telling you where you can find it, I'm not sure what else there is to say.

It's not that easy. People in the states used to, (maybe still do) go to jail just because they had a spouse, or significant other who dealt drugs. The spouse or SO did not have to be involved, they just had to know the dealer, and allow them phone use, or to stay over night in their house, or accept a gift from the proceeds of the sales of drugs.

That's because they're aiding and abetting the commission of a crime.

Right, as I said, I don't see where it states who must pay, why they must pay, etc.

What are you talking about? That's exactly what the tax code says. It's the codification of how exactly your income, property, etc. is taxed.

I'm making a distinction of income taxes.

Why?

I'm just asking to see if anyone knows where the specifics are located, and what they say. 

You could check the US or Canada revenue agency websites.

No different than if someone asked me why I feel something is a sin, and my answer became a generic, "It's in the bible", and left nothing else, the person would have a start, but realistically it didn't answer their question.

Why don't you look it up yourself? Unless one of the people here is a tax lawyer, it's going to come down to Google anyway, so you might as well skip the middleman.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:55, Sat 09 Aug 2008.

I think criminals and taxes are vastly different. For example, if someone were to oppose high sales tax, I'd be less threatened if that were compared to one who opposed shoplifting fines.

I addressed that in a different post, but my context is income taxes, not all taxes.


I think that is the question I'm asking. Let's find where it states it clearly who is to pay taxes, and the why's, and so on. I'm not trying to say that liberals of the law welcome taxes, or conservative value the letter of the law, and don't want to pay taxes. I'm just trying to find out what is said to be clear, and where it is stated.

It's ok. I'm not asking you to show me where it states. I'm asking anyone where it states. I gave the example of stating a general answer that will involve hundreds of hours of research. (I'm guessing. I'm not sure how many hours it would take to read all the laws on taxes.) I think most people would admit that to be a daunting task.

Not always. My point was addressing the laws not being used as intended. The SO, or spouse don't even have to know what's going on to be convicted. In some cases, the results were the spouse or SO received more time than the dealer because the dealer would be able to cooperate with the prosecutor, and pass on details such as other dealers, and sources of supply. The SO or spouse were not even privy to such details, and so unable to provide any information to act as "collateral" for a lesser sentence. (For something they did not even participate in).


Falkus, it's not so clear how that applies to people. In the earlier link, it said it applied to anyone. And yet the USA cannot tax just anyone. They can't tax me for example. So what else is pointed out where they can tax "anyone"?



Why not? That's the one I am asking about.

Too much for me to try and break down. I'm asking the group here since I'm counting on some insight from others who have done more research than I. I'm expecting Heath and kat to be more into this than the other users here. A lawyer, and a government conspiracy theorist seems to be my first guess on getting an inside track or at least a good opinion about what they feel about their view.

I do believe Heath is a lawyer, and I remember something about corporations. That suggests taxes, and financing to me. It's just a guess, but either way, if more people get involved than just kat and Heath, I'm fine in hearing the discussion from others as well.

Perhaps you could google it... or ask your neighborhood lawyer.

Yea, I'm doing that too. I do like to hear from others with potentially more insight on the subject. I'm hoping there could be others that are interested in the subject in this forum.

TitL, is the 16th ammendment more what you're looking for?

Yes, that helps.

I've been doing more searching, specifically with the 16th amendment. What I can't find now is where there is a "cap" on taxes. There doesn't seem to be any minimum, or maximum. That doesn't seem likely though, so I'm assuming that I'm missing something.

Does the USA have the lawful right to take any amount they want from you? Do they have to be fair about what they take from you? At what point do the people have the right to withhold payment when a hardship is happening?

When I looked at the 16th amendment, it talked about a specific instance that it brought in a 2% tax rate on those who made more than 4000 dollars. I think they might be shocked that much much more than 2% of wages are taken in income tax.

http://www.givemeliberty.org/f..._xcdfr_is_income.htm
http://political-resources.com...mendment/default.htm

Apparantly Bill Benson has written a couple books on his own research that the 16th amendment was never legally ratified.


He is stating that in 1913 it was stated to be ratified, but it was not done so through the proper legal manner. It would suggest that without ratification, income taxes are not covered by the other amendments.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:07, Mon 11 Aug 2008.

To quote the seventh circuit:

"Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest. 'Tax protesters' have convinced themselves that wages are not income, that only gold is money, that the Sixteenth Amendment is unconstitutional, and so on. These beliefs all lead — so tax protesters think — to the elimination of their obligation to pay taxes."

I'd agree with that. There do seem to be groups that believe that income taxes are unconstitutional. I'd like to look at that deeper, and see how they able to protest, and go without paying. It seems like it should result in a quick decision in court, but the more I look into it, the less decisive it seems to be.