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21:06, 10th May 2024 (GMT+0)

The bailout.

Posted by TychoFor group 0
Tycho
GM, 1692 posts
Thu 2 Oct 2008
at 08:25
  • msg #1

The bailout

Requested topic by Jude 3.
katisara
GM, 3292 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Thu 2 Oct 2008
at 13:44
  • msg #2

Re: The bailout

I've been discussing this in CC, but I'll cover things very briefly to get them started.

If we go with the bailout, the problem is it will lose $700B when we're already heavily in debt.  Rather than crashing the economy, that may crash our currency altogether, which in many ways would result in the end of the country as we know it.  It probably won't, but that's the risk.  The bailout may or may not work on its own.  Plus if it does work, corporations are going to learn they can mess around and the government will bail them out (it was that assumption which contributed heavily to this situation in the first place).  So we can expect in another 20 years a repetition of this, with the taxpayers assuming the risk for investments, and the banks getting the profit.

If we don't go with the bailout, we're looking forward to a major global recession, tens of millions of lost jobs, loss of buying power for the US dollar, and overall a serious degradation of our quality of life for likely 6 years or more, and possibly the long-term loss of our station as leader of the global economy.  It will also decrease trust in our system, resulting in less investment in the future.


Frankly, I don't think any of these are the right answer.  We shouldn't be looking to bail out those responsible and shouldn't be afraid of letting corporations die.  However, we do want to soften the blow so we can take it in more easily.  A long slide over several years is better than over several months because there's less shock to the system.  I'm not sure yet how mechanically you would do that, allowing for a controlled descent, but I think that should be our goal.
Trust in the Lord
player, 996 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Thu 2 Oct 2008
at 23:27
  • msg #3

Re: The bailout

I don't understand why the banks don't just declare bankruptcy. This way, the assets stay, and someone else new comes in willing to take those assets, and work with them at realistic values.

Unless there is no value in anything those banks own, the only people who suffer are the stockholders, and the CEO, right? The business owners, and home owner can still keep their devalued product, but at least they still have value.

Keeping prices artificially high makes no sense. Who would buy a product they know is over priced, when big banks can go belly up at any time?
Falkus
player, 597 posts
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 00:48
  • msg #4

Re: The bailout

I don't understand why the banks don't just declare bankruptcy.

Because that would create a mass bank panic that would result in the collapse of the US economy?
Trust in the Lord
player, 997 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 01:09
  • msg #5

Re: The bailout

Why would it result in a collapse of economy? It should only collapse if the banks have no true value. If they go bankrupt, they go into receivership. The value of the company remains, and a new CEO comes in. Bankruptcy does not mean there is no value.
Falkus
player, 598 posts
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 01:32
  • msg #6

Re: The bailout

The value of the company remains, and a new CEO comes in. Bankruptcy does not mean there is no value.

But it does mean that people no longer trust the banks, resulting in a bank run. People withdraw all their money, further destabilizing the banks and causing them to collapse. That's what caused most of the damage during the depression.

There is nothing about money that makes it intrinsically valuable. Money is an illusion, the only value it has is that which people believe it to have.
Trust in the Lord
player, 998 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 01:58
  • msg #7

Re: The bailout

All the people can go back to the bank and get their money out? It's a good thing that the insurance of such accounts is 100,000 dollars currently.

And since during this day, the USA citizen on average has the highest amount of debt, and the lowest amount of savings, that means all people will get their money, and the majority will get back every single penny.
Jude 3
player, 209 posts
Contend for the faith
once delivered to you
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 03:44
  • msg #8

Re: The bailout

Well I see your all off to a rousing start!  Here is why I wanted this thread.  I am fairly ignorant of these types of things.  Until I got married I didn't even have a checkbook and did everything with cash.  At first I listened to the president's speech and though it sounded good, but then I got an email from a friend with an attached letter from Ron Paul.  I will quote the letter here:

Ron Paul:
Dear Friends:

The financial meltdown the economists of the Austrian School predicted has arrived.

We are in this crisis because of an excess of artificially created credit at the hands of the Federal Reserve System. The solution being proposed? More artificial credit by the Federal Reserve. No liquidation of bad debt and malinvestment is to be allowed. By doing more of the same, we will only continue and intensify the distortions in our economy - all the capital misallocation, all the malinvestment - and prevent the market's attempt to re-establish rational pricing of houses and other assets.

Last night the president addressed the nation about the financial crisis. There is no point in going through his remarks line by line, since I'd only be repeating what I've been saying over and over - not just for the past several days, but for years and even decades.

Still, at least a few observations are necessary.

The president assures us that his administration "is working with Congress to address the root cause behind much of the instability in our markets." Care to take a guess at whether the Federal Reserve and its money creation spree were even mentioned?

We are told that "low interest rates" led to excessive borrowing, but we are not told how these low interest rates came about. They were a deliberate policy of the Federal Reserve. As always, artificially low interest rates distort the market. Entrepreneurs engage in malinvestments - investments that do not make sense in light of current resource availability, that occur in more temporally remote stages of the capital structure than the pattern of consumer demand can support, and that would not have been made at all if the interest rate had been permitted to tell the truth instead of being toyed with by the Fed.

Not a word about any of that, of course, because Americans might then discover how the great wise men in Washington caused this great debacle. Better to keep scapegoating the mortgage industry or "wildcat capitalism" (as if we actually have a pure free market!).

Speaking about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the president said: "Because these companies were chartered by Congress, many believed they were guaranteed by the federal government. This allowed them to borrow enormous sums of money, fuel the market for questionable investments, and put our financial system at risk."

Doesn't that prove the foolishness of chartering Fannie and Freddie in the first place? Doesn't that suggest that maybe, just maybe, government may have contributed to this mess? And of course, by bailing out Fannie and Freddie, hasn't the federal government shown that the "many" who "believed they were guaranteed by the federal government" were in fact correct?

Then come the scare tactics. If we don't give dictatorial powers to the Treasury Secretary "the stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account. The value of your home could plummet." Left unsaid, naturally, is that with the bailout and all the money and credit that must be produced out of thin air to fund it, the value of your retirement account will drop anyway, because the value of the dollar will suffer a precipitous decline. As for home prices, they are obviously much too high, and supply and demand cannot equilibrate if government insists on propping them up.

It's the same destructive strategy that government tried during the Great Depression: prop up prices at all costs. The Depression went on for over a decade. On the other hand, when liquidation was allowed to occur in the equally devastating downturn of 1921, the economy recovered within less than a year.

The president also tells us that Senators McCain and Obama will join him at the White House today in order to figure out how to get the bipartisan bailout passed. The two senators would do their country much more good if they stayed on the campaign trail debating who the bigger celebrity is, or whatever it is that occupies their attention these days.

F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing how central banks' manipulation of interest rates creates the boom-bust cycle with which we are sadly familiar. In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, he described the foolish policies being pursued in his day - and which are being proposed, just as destructively, in our own:

Instead of furthering the inevitable liquidation of the maladjustments brought about by the boom during the last three years, all conceivable means have been used to prevent that readjustment from taking place; and one of these means, which has been repeatedly tried though without success, from the earliest to the most recent stages of depression, has been this deliberate policy of credit expansion.

To combat the depression by a forced credit expansion is to attempt to cure the evil by the very means which brought it about; because we are suffering from a misdirection of production, we want to create further misdirection - a procedure that can only lead to a much more severe crisis as soon as the credit expansion comes to an end... It is probably to this experiment, together with the attempts to prevent liquidation once the crisis had come, that we owe the exceptional severity and duration of the depression.

The only thing we learn from history, I am afraid, is that we do not learn from history.

The very people who have spent the past several years assuring us that the economy is fundamentally sound, and who themselves foolishly cheered the extension of all these novel kinds of mortgages, are the ones who now claim to be the experts who will restore prosperity! Just how spectacularly wrong, how utterly without a clue, does someone have to be before his expert status is called into question?

Oh, and did you notice that the bailout is now being called a "rescue plan"? I guess "bailout" wasn't sitting too well with the American people.

The very people who with somber faces tell us of their deep concern for the spread of democracy around the world are the ones most insistent on forcing a bill through Congress that the American people overwhelmingly oppose. The very fact that some of you seem to think you're supposed to have a voice in all this actually seems to annoy them.

I continue to urge you to contact your representatives and give them a piece of your mind. I myself am doing everything I can to promote the correct point of view on the crisis. Be sure also to educate yourselves on these subjects - the Campaign for Liberty blog is an excellent place to start. Read the posts, ask questions in the comment section, and learn.

H.G. Wells once said that civilization was in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have.

In liberty,

Ron Paul


I guess I'd like you folks who are more savvy about such things to break this down for me and help me understand this issue.  It will come as no suprise to you all that I support Bush on most things, but Education and Economics are two areas I have disagreed with him on.  I'm not sure how you just keep "creating" money to fight a war.  I remember when our Canadian neighbors got the shaft when they came down to buy from us.  Now the tables have turned and I think it's because our Prez has decided to continue to flood just create money when there is none.  Anyway, that may or may not be a rabbit trail, but I'm seriously kind of lost on this deal.  I just got another email today that points to Clinton pressuring Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae to lower their credit standards back in 1999 to allow low and moderate income families to qualify for mortgages as the start of this whole debacle.

Anyway, please let me know what you think. (I know you will. :)
Tycho
GM, 1693 posts
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 09:17
  • msg #9

Re: The bailout

I'm as confused by the whole bailout thing as everyone else.  I don't understand it all well enough to do anything but listen to people who claim to understand it and repeat what they say, which doesn't make me particularly confident.

A few things that do seem clear, however:
1.  We seem to be facing a choice of letting the market run its course, or trying to artificially alter the market in order to avoid some financial pain.  I think it's crucial that we realize that if we're going to be doing the latter, we are not in a free market economy.  If the government is going to be intentionally trying to alter the value and price of assets, going to be artificially preventing some businesses from failing, while letting other ones fail, then we simply aren't in a free market.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's important that we realize and accept it if we do it.  Because we can't treat these companies as if they're in a free market during the good times, but not during the bad.  As people have pointed out here a few times already, that will just lead to more and more booms, busts, and bailouts.  People will continue to make overly risky investments if they know they're going to get bailed out if things go bad.  If people's bad investments are being backed up by my tax money, I want rules in place that limit what kind of investments they can make.  If companies become "too big to let fail," then we need to accept that they're also too big to take the same risks the we let smaller companies and individuals take.  Alternatively, we can keep the idea that the free market is the only way to go, and just let these companies fail.  Either way, though, we need to realize we can't have our cake and eat it too in this situation.  We can't have a free market in the good times, and wellfare for billionaires during the bad, or we'll just end repeating the same mess over and over.  We have to decide whether we want to trust the market to work, with the downside of periodic recessions or depressions OR trust the government to keep the economy from going completely over the edge, with the downsides of more restrictions of large companies and enforcing more conservative investing for them.  If we try to do both, we end up with a situation where the companies get rich during the good times, and the taxpayers get poor during the bad.

2.  We need to update our economic models.  Pretty much all of our economic theory is based on equilibrium theory, but the economy is more dynamic than the theory can handle.  We need to be able to better model things like speculation, confidence vs pessimism, etc.

3.  We have to do something to bring the national debt back under control.  We had a significant budget surplus 8 years ago, which has turned into a huge deficit, made huger by fighting two wars.  The system seems to be straining, as our economy depends more and more on foreign investors buying up our debt.  The dollar is becoming less and less valuable as the debt increases, and if this continues, eventually people aren't going to want to buy up our debt, and the whole thing is going to collapse.  Yes, this probably means both increased taxes and decreased spending.  We need to accept that, and expect it from our politicians.  If we continue to keep cheering for whoever promises to cut taxes and offers the biggest new projects, that's what politicians are going to keep giving us, and the problem is going to keep getting worse.
Tycho
GM, 1694 posts
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 09:29
  • msg #10

Re: The bailout

Trust in the Lord:
Why would it result in a collapse of economy? It should only collapse if the banks have no true value. If they go bankrupt, they go into receivership. The value of the company remains, and a new CEO comes in. Bankruptcy does not mean there is no value.


I think the trouble is (and again I stress that I'm no expert on this, and am just as confused as everyone else) less one of value, and more one of liquid assets.  The economy needs banks around to lend people money, so that business can start, people can buy homes, etc.  We need banks to have cash so that they can make those loans.  If they were to declare bankruptcy, they would have to use what cash they had to pay off their debts, I would think.  That would leave them with no money to lend.  And that would leave all the people and business who need loans in a bad spot.  So if I understand it (see the caution above!), it's not so much an issue of the banks being able to pay their bills each month, and more one of them having money left over to lend.

I'm also under the impression (caution!), that much of the lending is between the various banks.  If one bank needs more cash, they'll take out a loan from another bank, say.  If the banks are worried the other banks are going to declare bankruptcy, they won't lend each other any cash, so those banks who would consider declaring bankruptcy wouldn't be able raise the cash to keep themselves in business.

From what I understand (careful now!), the bailout is designed to buy up questionable debt from banks.  Banks need to keep a certain amount of cash on hand in order to cover their investments, in case those investments go bad.  Right now they're having to keep a lot of cash on hand to cover these investments.  If the government buys up those investments, the plan is, then the cash the banks were using to cover them (as well as the money they get from the sale) would now be available to them to loan out to people, and keep the economy moving.  The government ends up owning a bunch of questionable investments, but since they're not (normally) a lending agency, they don't have to worry about keeping cash on hand to cover them, so it's less of a problem (or so the theory goes).
Trust in the Lord
player, 999 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 09:38
  • msg #11

Re: The bailout

I'm not saying all banks will go bankrupt. Only some will go bankrupt. Once they do go bankrupt, another group or bank can take on the liability and the value held by said bank. For example, if your bank goes bankrupt, you still have to pay off your mortgage, loans, and credit cards to the new bank that will take on your debt. There's still a lot of debt that will be paid, and there will still be plenty of people that want to make a profit off the value owned by the bank that goes bankrupt.


This value does not disappear in the event of a bankruptcy. The bigger issue why banks are not lending money to other banks is due partially to the bailout. If the bank goes bankrupt and the value is 20% of stock to the receiver, but the government is taking it to congress to get 30, 40, or maybe 70% of value, the banks would be crazy to give up the potential profit by having the government take on that debt.

It's still about profit, and how much money they will take away. Right now, it's determining just how much profit.
Tycho
GM, 1695 posts
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 09:54
  • msg #12

Re: The bailout

Trust in the Lord:
I'm not saying all banks will go bankrupt. Only some will go bankrupt. Once they do go bankrupt, another group or bank can take on the liability and the value held by said bank. For example, if your bank goes bankrupt, you still have to pay off your mortgage, loans, and credit cards to the new bank that will take on your debt. There's still a lot of debt that will be paid, and there will still be plenty of people that want to make a profit off the value owned by the bank that goes bankrupt.


That's just it, though:  the liability of these banks is just what other banks don't want right now.  Their own liability is tying their hands at the moment.  If they take on another banks bad debts, that just makes it harder for them to make good loans, because they need to keep more cash on hand to cover the new debts that they've bought up.  If the debt was something other banks wanted, there wouldn't be a problem in the first place--they could just sell their debts off without declaring bankruptcy.

Again, though, the bailout isn't about saving the shareholders of the banks/investment firms (though it may well do that), it's about making sure the banks stay open so that people/businesses can get new loans.  Declaring bankruptcy may be good for some of the banks, but it's not good (we're told) for the economy, so we need (again, so we're told) to stop it from happening in order to avoid a credit crunch.  Put another way, the goal isn't the keep the banks from losing money, it's keeping the banks around and lending money.  Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to do that is to keep the banks from losing money on their bad investments.

Put yet another way: letting these banks/investment firms go under would be worse for us than it would be for them.  The banks care about making the most money (or taking the smallest loses) for their shareholders, where as "we" care about making sure the economy is running well.  Bankruptcy might be the bank's choice best (if there isn't a bailout), but it's not what "we" want to happen, so "we" offer them a bailout so they don't declare bankruptcy.  We give them a new choice, because their current best choice doesn't work well for us.  At least, I think that's how the story goes.
Trust in the Lord
player, 1000 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 10:04
  • msg #13

Re: The bailout

We can still get loans. The banks will want to give out loans so it has more money. They won't want to give out loans recklessly like before, thinking the Government will take on the bad debt if it doesn't work out. Making the taxpayer take on the risk, but the banker to take on the profit is not a good idea. It leads to risky behavior.


Another bad part about the bailout is that it will also devalue the American dollar. Since the USA will have to loan itself the 700 billion, it will lower the American dollar even further than it has already devalued itself.
Trust in the Lord
player, 1001 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 10:21
  • msg #14

Re: The bailout

I just looked up Forbes website, and note that the CEO of Fannie Mae, Daniel H Mudd, was paid 8.79 million last year for his efforts. I'm learning this is common to be be so hugely paid when making bad investments.
Tycho
GM, 1696 posts
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 10:30
  • msg #15

Re: The bailout

Trust in the Lord:
We can still get loans. The banks will want to give out loans so it has more money.

That's just it, though.  The banks have to have some amount of cash on hand in order to make loans.  If that wasn't necessary, you or I could just call ourselves banks and start handing out loans.  As I've said, the trouble isn't so much just the banks losing money, but rather the banks not having the cash on hand to give out loans.  They need to have liquid assets in order to make loans.  At the moment their assets are tied up in questionable debt.  They want to sell off those debts, so they can have cash instead, and thus make more loans.  Nobody wants to buy up the debt, though, because they don't have a good idea on what it's likely to be worth (and because if they have cash with which to buy them, they're better off just using it to make "good" loans anyway).

Trust in the Lord:
They won't want to give out loans recklessly like before, thinking the Government will take on the bad debt if it doesn't work out.

To be fair, I don't think most of them were expecting a government bailout when the made the loans.  However, they did think housing prices would just keep going up and up, and that someone up the financial food chain would buy up their debts.  It was very much poor judgment, but I think it was more a case of them thinking the loans weren't actually risky, rather than thinking the government would back them up.

Trust in the Lord:
Making the taxpayer take on the risk, but the banker to take on the profit is not a good idea. It leads to risky behavior.

No disagreement there.

Trust in the Lord:
Another bad part about the bailout is that it will also devalue the American dollar. Since the USA will have to loan itself the 700 billion, it will lower the American dollar even further than it has already devalued itself.

Yep, this is true too.  The question is (and I don't know the answer) whether that's worse than a credit crunch that slows the economy way down, likely for a decade or so (similar to what caused Japan's "lost decade").  Like I said in my first post, we can't have it both ways.  We have to swallow one unpleasant pill or the other: government influence in the economy (in both the good times and the bad), or accepting recessions/depressions as part of a free market, and sucking it up and living through them.
Trust in the Lord
player, 1002 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 10:42
  • msg #16

Re: The bailout

http://www.forbes.com/business..._bw_0923bailout.html

quote:
In fact, some of the most basic details, including the $700 billion figure Treasury would use to buy up bad debt, are fuzzy.

"It's not based on any particular data point," a Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday. "We just wanted to choose a really large number."


It brings up an important point. Since the banks themselves don't know if one bank or another is going to go bankrupt, the 700 billion is a completely made up number. The government cannot know if 700 billion, or just 20 million will be enough to make a bank have value again.

Why did the government wait till the very end before revealing the bail out? Didn't they know? Why did the government stop making it public knowledge about how much money they printed starting back in 2006?

Does anyone wonder why the Federal Reserve is a private company owned by banking cartels?


The bailout is a hoax. It's all about how much profit these ruling banks can make on the backs of every day citizens. The "scariness" and fear tactics are along the same lines used to get the regular people to accept ideas such as the Patriot act.
katisara
GM, 3295 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 13:28
  • msg #17

Re: The bailout

Overall I agree with Ron Paul, and many but not all of his economic theories I tend to agree with.  On some points I think he takes it a bit far (his theories are very safe and very conservative, but by being so safe, they sometimes limit opportunities for economic growth).

The fact that the government no longer tells how much money it prints is indeed a bad sign.  The value of our currency depends on security, and that in turn depends on knowledge.  Even if the government is playing straight, the fact that they're hiding their cards makes me suspicious, and more eager to invest in tangibles and overseas than I would otherwise.  Hiding how much money they print allows them to print more (or less, but almost certainly more) than normal and delay the consequences enough that it primarily hits someone else, namely people like you and me.

quote:
To be fair, I don't think most of them were expecting a government bailout when the made the loans.


It would appear Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae did.  They took on more high-risk loans with the understanding they had government support (since many senators actively spoke out on behalf of those risky loans).  While they aren't 'most banks', they do make up a surprising number of loans.



That said, I'll go ahead and give a few reasons why we do need this bailout (since everyone seems to be fighting on the other side), going from most straightforward to more distanced, as the ripples of economic meltdown are felt.


On the most basic level, many (perhaps even most?) people have significant amounts of money tied into the market right now.   Most businesses have a 401k, Roth IRA or TSP account, all of which invest in the market in one form or another.  Additionally, most people with kids have a 539 or similar college plan which invests in the market.  The truth is, if I were to retire right now, I would not be able to live off of my retirement pay by a long shot, and most people are in a similar place.  The economy moved away from a full pension back in the 80s, and now most companies only pony up a small portion, if any (which is a very mixed blessing).  If the market crashes, a lot of boomers who were just on the cusp of retiring will not be able to do so, and a lot of people (like me) who are saving up for their own or their childrens' college education won't have the money for that.  I don't think anyone wants to see their saved up retirement fund disappear, nor to see their children not be able to afford college, so this is pretty significant.

As banks close down, the FDIC will have to fill in the gap.  The big problem here is, the FDIC is not especially fast.  There was a minor crash a few years ago (I can look it up if people are interested) and the FDIC took two months to reimburse people, and offered no additional interest for the difference in time.  Can you imagine surviving for two months with no paycheck?  Most people can't.

People can't get loans for important things.  College loans, house loans, car loans, etc. all dry up.  Some of these people have been abusing for a while, but when it comes down to it, these loans are also very helpful.  If I were getting ready to sell my house, or change jobs, I may need a loan to fix up the house beforehand or make the move.  Without this liquidity, I can't do that, and I'm stuck in a bad situation.

Businesses also can't get loans required for growth.  Right now most everything requires a loan.  You can't start a new business out of pocket.  If businesses can't get loans, they can't hire new people, they can't expand, and economic growth stalls.  This is a critical point, since this is where we move from direct effects to less obvious effects.

Now things start to get more complex.  A healthy economy is one where money moves quickly.  Right now, each dollar you spend 'makes' approximately $11 more dollars before it stops.  This all depends on people having cash available to spend above and beyond the necessities.  If you can't afford more than rent and food, the cycle is a lot lower.  So as people have less disposable income, it results in a cycle.  They spend less, less moves around the economy, less gets back to them, they have less to spend, etc.  There are problems relating to this 'speed of money', but we aren't focusing on those right now.

Most of us are in a position where we benefit from people having discretionary income to spend on more than just food and rent.  Most of us also benefit from having a wide availability of luxury products, like TVs and ipods.  On the contrary, when the money doesn't move as far, people aren't needed to produce these things and get laid off.  Meanwhile, consumers have less selection to choose from and have to make do with lesser products.

One way of keeping this money moving is by 'making' money, either literally through printing presses, loans (enter the FDIC) or credit cards.  Since the banking meltdown will significantly curtail two of these, we look forward to a significant increase in unemployment and falling luxury levels for a long period fo time until the market self-corrects.


Tycho is very right about the public and private debt.  We've already been skating on thin ice for a while.  If we had a 0 balance, $700B would be painful, but pretty safe.  No one would question the US's ability to repay that.  But we aren't, so it puts our currency in doubt, and threatens to overthrow it altogether.  Similarly, most people are in a lot of debt, and so now that they actually NEED that money to pay their mortgage, they're in a tough spot.
katisara
GM, 3296 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 13:58
  • msg #18

Re: The bailout

Something interested (and related) I just read on Global Guerrillas http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/

quote:
SYSTEMIC SHOCKS
A top-level conclusion from my book Brave New War is that security in the future, from economic to physical to environmental to social, will be measured by our responses to a never-ending series of global systemic shocks derived from a plethora of sources. Unfortunately, we are likely to fare badly. The reasons for this are simple, the global system is:


Too Big. Simply, the system's scale is far beyond the ability of nation-states, or a community of nation-states, to manage when it suffers a breakdown. In the case of the current financial collapse, the global shadow banking system (a globally inter-networked collection of unregulated financial products) is approximately $450 trillion, as compared to a US GDP of $15 trillion or a global GDP of ~$60 trillion. Put another way, the financial liabilities of the highly leveraged Deutsche Bank are 80% of Germany's GDP and Barclay's liabilities are 100% of the UK's GDP. As the leverage underlying the shadow banking system unwinds and more banks fail, the scale of the loses experienced will rapidly exceed nation-state budgets.


Too Fast. The speed at which shocks spread in this globally interconnected system is faster than the response time of governmental institutions (tight coupling). In this financial crisis, the cascade of failure in the system spreads at the speed of information networks and computer automation in trillion dollar increments. The upshot is that the government's impacted will likely take hasty measures, like the 3 page Paulson plan in the US, without the analysis, orientation, or synthesis necessary to produce high quality results.


Too Complex. The system's function is beyond understanding. This is due to a lack of data (opacity either due to the nature of the system or by design as in the shadow banking system), the number of variables or connected systems, a lack of long term historical data on its operation in its current configuration, etc. The result is that efforts to mitigate the system's excesses produces pyrrhic victories (where the corrective action produces negative outcomes, like how efforts to ramp biofuel production impacted food prices). Worse, due to the system's complexity and the lack of an effective means to address its excesses, we are reduced to treating symptoms of failure (as with the Paulson plan) and even then under violent debate.

Epilogue

The inevitable outcome of systemic shocks at this magnitude will be an inevitable delegitimization of the nation-state as our trust in the ability of leaders to take effective corrective action evaporates. Further, nation-states will expend the majority of their resources on hasty and relatively ineffective corrective actions, which will make them collectively more prone to damage in the future and which will preclude the investments required to mitigate future crises. The cycle of delegitimization and resource depletion will continue until the nation-state is unable to respond at all to future calamity (the scale of this financial crisis is such, we may as well forget about any chance of early action to delay or prevent global warming, peak oil, water scarcity, food shortfalls, pandemics, etc.). In short, we will see a proliferation of hollow states.


NOTE: Due to the networked design of our global system, small events can be amplified into global shocks -- either through unmitigated positive feedback loops or a breakdown in the system's core assumptions.


What do you suppose will happen when banks owe more than the country they reside in actually makes?  Will a dollar mean anything when your nation makes $100T a year, and the banks residing in it owe $150T to other nations, banks and individuals?
Trust in the Lord
player, 1003 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 14:09
  • msg #19

Re: The bailout

What if 700 billion isn't enough, would any one have any issues after investing so many billions, investing another 300 billion the following year? And what if needed another 50 billion every 6 months?

Once they have the ok to go that far, you have to accept that it will cost much much more. Let's also point out it's a 700 billion loan being added into the system. What's 700 billion plus interest?

If you take out a mortgage, say a 1 million dollar home, even at a small percentage, how much do you end up paying in interest?

Multiple that to a 700 billion dollar loan made in American dollars which have already dropped in value substantially. And than multiple it again when they start taking more money that originally planned.


So here's the question. If 700 billion is added to the system, why would that prevent a collapse of the economy? How would it prevent it? Would it prevent it for a month, a year, a decade? How long will it prevent it from happening?
This message was last edited by the player at 14:10, Fri 03 Oct 2008.
Tycho
GM, 1697 posts
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 14:41
  • msg #20

Re: The bailout

Trust in the Lord:
What if 700 billion isn't enough, would any one have any issues after investing so many billions, investing another 300 billion the following year? And what if needed another 50 billion every 6 months?

This is a good point.  Part of the senate's plan, if I recall, did stipulate giving only part of the sum at first, and requiring progress reports of some sort from the Fed before each increment was disbursed.  Whether congress would actually have the gumption to tell them "no" at any point, though, I'm not sure.

Trust in the Lord:
What's 700 billion plus interest?

The cost of the iraq war so far? ;)

Trust in the Lord:
So here's the question. If 700 billion is added to the system, why would that prevent a collapse of the economy? How would it prevent it? Would it prevent it for a month, a year, a decade? How long will it prevent it from happening?

I think the theory (again, I'm not qualified to say if it's correct or not), is that by buying up the illiquid assets of these banks, they would get the liquid assets they need to be able to lend money, and thus avoid all the problems katisara mentioned in his post.  As for how long it would prevent it, I guess until these companies get all their assets locked up in questionable debt again.  I don't think anyone has any idea on how long that will be.  Will it prevent it from happening again?  The $700 billion itself won't.  Whether new laws will/could is the real issue, and whether voters are willing to tolerate the downsides of the laws that would be required to prevent it from happening again.  Probably, though, laws would end up being made to stop the exact same thing from happening again, when the bigger threat is whatever the next bubble turns out to be (ie, the laws the make to stop another mortgage bubble might not stop a new, different type of bubble that results in a similar mess).  One thing to keep in mind, though, is the cost of not spending this $700 billion.  I think everyone agrees that bailing out these companies is a bad idea.  Some people just seem to think not bailing them out is a worse idea, though!  Who's right?  I don't know.  But it definitely seems like a case of picking the least horrible option.

One thing I'm not entirely sure on is why everyone is convinced it has to happen right now!  Seems like this is the kind of thing where taking the time to do it right would be a good idea, but those in favor seem to want it now, now, now!  I'd prefer the people passing laws not be in quite such a panic when they do it.  In that respect, it does seem a bit like the patriot act.
katisara
GM, 3297 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 15:28
  • msg #21

Re: The bailout

Tycho:
As for how long it would prevent it, I guess until these companies get all their assets locked up in questionable debt again.


That's precisely the question, plus the comments above about how taxpayers would be assuming the risks and bankers taking the profit.  If anything, a complete bail-out would ENCOURAGE a future spiral because it encourages risky practices.

Another economic theory is that free markets (which we haven't enjoyed for almost a century now) have natural rises and falls.  The falls are necessary to clear out the bad debt and companies and make space for new growth.  We've basically artificially maintained growth since the 80s.  Even the dot com bust was partially mitigated by artificial market manipulation.  So some people are of the opinion that an eventual crash is inevitable, and the sooner we get it done with, the better we'll be (since there will be less bad debt to get rid of).  Whether they're right, that a dip is inevitable, so let's get it out of the way, or the contrary view that with appropriate manipulation we can keep constant growth is correct, is a matter of significant debate.  Ron Paul is very clearly in the former party.


quote:
One thing I'm not entirely sure on is why everyone is convinced it has to happen right now!  Seems like this is the kind of thing where taking the time to do it right would be a good idea, but those in favor seem to want it now, now, now! 


I think the theory is that it's like a self-feeding death spiral.  Banks A, B, C and D all have debts with each other, and all have a certain amount of bad debts.  A goes under.  Now B, C and D all have more bad debt, because their debts from A have gone bad.  This makes it tougher to survive, perhaps forcing B to go under.  Now C and D are in an even worse place.  We're seeing that right now as a chain reaction, starting with Countrywide (or perhaps earlier) is toppling bigger and bigger lenders.  If you nick it in the bud early, by buying out A, that reduces stress on B, C and D preventing further damage.  If you wait until D is the only one left standing, you're already in a depression and there's not much you can do.

However, it's correct that rushing politicians dealing with huge numbers is a guarantee for waste and fraud, and we're seeing that right now.  I'm not too keen on that either.

The Cato Institute seems to be supporting the idea of individualized bail-outs on a case-by-case basis, which seems most logical.  A collapses, the government decides they aren't worth saving, and lets them go.  B collapses and the gov't recognizes C and D own substantial portions, and so chooses to keep B up with conditions specially made for their situation.  I personally am coming to like this because it encourages a case-by-case examination, decreases fraud (at least a little), and softens the downward curve without eliminating it.  (The Cato institute leans Libertarian, although not nearly as much as Ron Paul.)
Jude 3
player, 211 posts
Contend for the faith
once delivered to you
Mon 6 Oct 2008
at 14:41
  • msg #22

Re: The bailout

Here's another article I thought was interesting.  It's kind of "after the fact" but helped me understand this dellema a bit better.

From NY Times, Sept 30, 1999:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...amp;exprod=permalink
Trust in the Lord
player, 1015 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Sat 11 Oct 2008
at 16:38
  • msg #23

Re: The bailout

gammaknight
player, 17 posts
Sat 11 Oct 2008
at 17:21
  • msg #24

Re: The bailout

Personally the bailout stinks of Socialism and the government should stay out of the market.

Capitalism is what we were built on and it should stay that way.
Falkus
player, 617 posts
Sat 11 Oct 2008
at 22:37
  • msg #25

Re: The bailout

The market can't be trusted to regulate itself properly, sometimes the government needs to get involved.
katisara
GM, 3308 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 01:25
  • msg #26

Re: The bailout

The market hasn't been allowed to regulate itself in any of our lifetimes.
gammaknight
player, 27 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 01:42
  • msg #27

Re: The bailout

And that is socialism Mr. Falkus.

There is no such thing as a little socialism, it is not there or all the way.  No in between.
Falkus
player, 646 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 03:17
  • msg #28

Re: The bailout

Fine by me. I'm a socialist.
Tycho
GM, 1744 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 08:54
  • msg #29

Re: The bailout

The idea of the market "regulating itself" is based on the assumption of equilibrium.  But in reality, we're never at equillibrium.  It's a useful, informative assumption to make, and it makes a light of economic principles much clearer, but it's also not a good assumption to make about reality.  Bubbles are a very real part of a free market system.  They happen not because of over regulation, but because of speculation.  There's nothing wrong with speculation, per se, but it's not adequately modelled by equilibrium theory economics.  People are starting look into non-equilibrium economic models now, and they're starting to be able to model bubbles and crashes (though not predict them--seems they're a non-linear effect).

The question becomes: can we live with bubbles and crashes?  In some industries, we surely can.  In others, though, it seems we're not willing to just let people suffer for making bad investments during a bubble, because the effects on the economy as a whole are too big.  That's what we're seeing right now.  We're not willing to let all the investment banks, real estate giants, etc. fail, because if they do, too many people will loose too much money.  Now, that's a judgment we have to make.  I'm not entirely sure where I stand, to be honest.  But IF we decide we can't live with bubbles, THEN we have to accept that a totally free market won't work, because totally free markets do end up with bubbles and crashes.  That means accepting external regulation aimed at eliminating bubbles and crashes.  It means eliminating reducing the leverage used in these industries that can't afford to fail.

In the end it comes down to this: you can't have a really high return AND no risk at the same time.  If we can't accept any risk in certain industries, we have to realize that returns will be lower.  We also have to realize that the markets are not magical cure-alls.  Free markets don't automatically lead to the perfect price.  Again, the idea that they do is based on an assumption of equilibrium, which isn't met in the real world.  We need to realize that this idea of "if we just leave the market alone, everything will sort itself out," isn't actually true (unless you count things like depressions as "sorting itself out").  Markets are made up of people making human decisions.  Just because they're are more of them, don't expect them to make perfect decisions.  Large groups of people are very capable of making very bad decisions, all at the same time.
gammaknight
player, 32 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 10:35
  • msg #30

Re: The bailout

You make a valid point Tycho.  I for one am comfortable with a free market.  Falkus admits to being a socialist and I applaud him for his openness, but socialism didn't make this country great, capitalism did.

Socialism is bad, it doesn't reward anyone for taking a risk.  Did y'all know that Hershey failed at least twice before he started to put milk in his chocolate?  Once he succeeded he started to grow and in 1900 sold his company for a cool mill, which was a large sum then and moved.  Under socialism his company, as soon as it became large enough, would be gobbled up by the government. Why bother taking the risk?  You can see this in what the world thinks of the socialist countries.  England and Canada are jokes.  When was the last time you heard a good idea come out either one?  All socialism is is communism for bleeding hearts.

One final point on the bailout.  If this bailout was so grand and had to be done, why hasn't it been done yet?  This thing was going to save us, why did the market start tanking?  I can at least answer the second question, its because the people on wall street are waiting for their peace of the pie that my great-great-great-great grandson, if this country is even around then, will still be paying on.
Falkus
player, 648 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 11:16
  • msg #31

Re: The bailout

Falkus admits to being a socialist and I applaud him for his openness, but socialism didn't make this country great, capitalism did.

Luck and circumstance made your country great, not capitalism.

  Socialism is bad, it doesn't reward anyone for taking a risk

And pure capitalism punishes the poor.

Under socialism his company, as soon as it became large enough, would be gobbled up by the government.

I pay the cheapest electricity prices in the world because Hydro Quebec is a crown corporation that, nonetheless, turns a profit and isn't a drain on the taxpayer's finance. And because it's a monopoly here in Quebec, when the ice storm took down a lot of the lines, they were able to get them fixed far faster than a dozen companies would have, saving a lot of lives in the progress.

England and Canada are jokes.  When was the last time you heard a good idea come out either one?  All socialism is is communism for bleeding hearts.

Aside from the fact that we're the ninth largest economy in the world, one of the highest standards of living, the biggest trading partner of the US and your greatest supplier of foreign energy? I think socialism's working pretty well for us.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:37, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
Falkus
player, 649 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 11:33
  • msg #32

Re: The bailout

Question, gamma: If American capitalism is so great, why is that your banks are failing, while our Canadian banks aren't?
Tycho
GM, 1747 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 11:56
  • msg #33

Re: The bailout

gammaknight:
Socialism is bad, it doesn't reward anyone for taking a risk.

I think you don't actually understand what socialism is.  There are plenty of investment bankers in europe.  There are plenty of very rich people in socialist countries.

gammaknight:
Did y'all know that Hershey failed at least twice before he started to put milk in his chocolate?  Once he succeeded he started to grow and in 1900 sold his company for a cool mill, which was a large sum then and moved.  Under socialism his company, as soon as it became large enough, would be gobbled up by the government.

Um...what?  I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.  There are very big, very wealthy companies in socialist countries.

gammaknight:
Why bother taking the risk?  You can see this in what the world thinks of the socialist countries.  England and Canada are jokes.  When was the last time you heard a good idea come out either one?  All socialism is is communism for bleeding hearts.

England and Canada are jokes?!  I think there might be a lot of people who would take issue with that.

Out of curiosity, gammaknight, how much time have you spent outside of the US?  Do you know that the world thinks canada and the UK are jokes because you've been out in the world, talking to people about it, or is this just something you've been told by talk radio?  Which countries do you think aren't jokes?  Is the US the only one?
gammaknight
player, 34 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 12:11
  • msg #34

Re: The bailout

Capitalism doesn't punish the poor.  Look at Dave Thomas the founder of Wendy's.  He was an orphan who worked hard and died owning one of the largest burger joints arounds.  Capitalism punishes the lazy, and I believe what the Bible says, "He who will not work, should not eat."  We have to much of this in the US, to many bleeding heart liberals who coddle people.

What do I sound like?  Like I said before, I'm a realist.  Life is hard and only those who work diligently can succeed.  We were talking about stagnation in another thread, socialism promotes stagnation.  "Everyone stand around and get your check."  Please.  Don't give me a durn thing, I'll work for it myself.

I don't have a problem with helping those who can't work, that is one of the main charges of the church.  The government should have no hand in it.  Oh and by the way, the US, a capitalistic society, gives more to the down trodden privetly then any other socialist coutry hands down.

As per here
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19409188/

and here

http://www.usatoday.com/news/n...-25-charitable_N.htm

and here about christians

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176163,00.html

and finally a look at Canada vs. USA

http://www.afpnet.org/ka/ka-3....8&folder_id=2345

Note: I just broused the articles, so I may have missed something in them, but you get the idea.

I understand that your economy is not as good as ours, but come on, we beat y'all by 6x (money amount) and 1 percentage point (percentage amount of income)!!!  Socialism better for society, yeah right!!

:)

Oh and just because something is cheap doesn't mean it's good.  I have to agree with you on the monopoly thing, but only to a point.  A monopoly can make things easier to accomplish, like the old AT&T.  I miss it from time to time, but I also understand why it had to be broken up.  Now if there is another nationwide At&T it wouldn't have a monopoly now because of the internet and cell phones, but that's another story.

Now tell me what I sound like.  I hope you will see that I sound like some one who wants everyone else to pull their own weight and not rely on a government hand out by taking my hard earned money.  That's my job to help them, not theirs.
Tycho
GM, 1749 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 12:44
  • msg #35

Re: The bailout

What you need to keep in mind, gammaknight, is that in addition to being a rich country, the US is also a very large country, with lots of people in it.  It terms of how much all of them put together give, yeah, the US is quite generous.  But based on how much americans give, compared to people in other countries, we're actually not as hot as we tend to think.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html

What you need to remember about "hand-outs" and laziness, is that hard work doesn't impact your income nearly as much as does having wealthy parents.  Yes, there are hard working people who've started poor and worked their way up.  But there are far, far more lazy people who've started rich, and stayed there, and there are far more people who have started poor, worked their butts off, and still ended up poor.  The goal of socialism is not to give everyone a hand out, but make it easier for someone who starts poor to work hard and get ahead.  It's also to avoid letting people starve.  You might think those who don't work should starve, but I personally would rather help a freeloader live than watch him die.

Let me guess something else about your views:  you also think estate taxes are wrong.  You think the government taking money away from a rich person who wants to leave it to their child is horrible unethical.  Am I right?  But what happens to your "no handouts, everybody works" cries then?  Where are your "no free rides!" demands when parents pay for their children's education?  The idea that a person's wealth is a direct result of their work only works if everyone starts at the same level.  As it is now in the US, having wealthy parents is a far, far greater advantage than is a good work ethic, intelligence, etc.

You ask what you sound like.  My answer is that you sound like someone who doesn't care about other people.  You sound like someone who only cares about yourself.  You sound like someone who is so convinced that USA is number one no matter what, that you don't look at what life is like in other countries to notice that many of them have higher standards of living than the US.  You also sound like someone who's never had to decide between paying his mother's medical bills, and buying shoes for the kids.  You sound like someone who believes everyone who has money problems is lazy, and that everyone who is rich must be a real hard worker.  You sound like someone who believes that everyone who can't find a job isn't actually looking.  You sound like someone who likes to tell everyone how great he is, how right he is, and how foolish everyone else is, without realizing that they're actually doing better than you.  In short, you sound a great deal like a lot of conservative christians in the US, but very little like christ.
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:48, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
gammaknight
player, 37 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 13:12
  • msg #36

Re: The bailout

Not to hot in our giving?  We are number 4 in the list. Not bad I would say.  Not good, but not bad either.

Just out of curiousity who is infoplease.com and how do they get their info?  I hope they aren't like Wiki where anyone can change or submit info.

You are correct on the rich parent thing, but that is not a government issue, but a parenting issue.  I am not wealthy by any stretch, but I am not going to give my kids anything.  They are going to have to work to get what they want.  All taxes are wrong, especially estate taxes.  Lets see if I can say this right.. What a person does with their money is their choice.  The current liberal mind bent that has been hammered down our throats is that we should be protecting our children because we love them.  BS!!  I say you give the child the tools to succeed and stand back.  Watch them fall and fail, that is how they learn.  It's called tough love.

I do care about people, I care enough that they should help themselves or got to others, not the government.  What I don't want is someone else telling me I have to give taxes so the government can do good works.  No, Jesus said that you go not let the government go.  Charity begins at home.  I only make 50K a year between my wife and I and I have been lazy in the past.  Only 2 years ago we only made 35K, I got a CDL and thus make by myself what my wife and I made together.

I worked hard to do it and am reaping the benefits.

I just tier of all the welfare mommas and dog-like daddys sucking up all my hard work is all, telling the government they need help while they drive lexuses and wear Apple Bottom jeans.  While I have to decide hot dogs and mac and cheese for how many days intermixed with spaghetti and have to buy from Good Will or Wal-Mart clearance racks.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:26, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
Tycho
GM, 1751 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 13:29
  • msg #37

Re: The bailout

Yes, as the richest nation in the world, being 4 isn't that hot.  We're also 15th on the list in terms of government giving, or 14th on the in terms of total giving.  It may be "not bad," but it certainly undermines your "we're way more generous than everyone else" argument.  And considering most of the countries on the list are socialist, it also contradicts your assertion that the US is more generous because it's capitalist.

If you look at the bottom, you can see where they get their info:
quote:
Source: © Center for Global Development and Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. From “Ranking the Rich,” Foreign Policy, May/June 2004. Reprinted with permission.


As for "all taxes are wrong," remember that when you drive on a road next.  And when your garbage is picked up.  And when you put your "support the troops" bumper sticker on your car.  And when you send your kids to school.  And when a fire truck or ambulance drives by.  These things don't show up on their own.  They didn't just appear there because America is so great.

gammaknight:
I just tier of all the welfare mommas and dog-like daddys sucking up all my hard work is all, telling the government they need help while they drive lexuses and wear Apple Bottom jeans.  While I have to decide hot dogs and mac and cheese for how many days intermixed with spaghetti and have to buy from Good Will or Wal-Mart clearance racks.

And just how much of your hard work do you think that's sucked up?  Give me a guess at how much you think you've paid for these supposed lexuses (by the by, have you ever met anyone on wellfare driving a lexus, or did you just hear of one somewhere)?

Put another way: are you mad because they're taking something from you, or is it just because you feel they're getting an easier ride than you?  Is it actually the amount wellfare costs thats got you so upset, or is it just an issue of principle for you?
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:34, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
gammaknight
player, 39 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 13:50
  • msg #38

Re: The bailout

I have thought about that.  Did you know that until 1862 we didn't have any income taxes?  Instead we taxed only "sinful" goods and some business transactions(1).  Also make sure you read down on what Reagan did to the tax system.

I understand that the government needs money to do civil services that benefit all, but how does welfare benefit all?  I don't want half a billion going to Alaska every year by Alaska's Senetor who is now being investigated for fraud.
(I can't remember the service that reported this, but it had something to do with transperancy in government or something like that.)

Oh and my wife works at a local school and sees it all the time, and I have seen myself.  I see it everyday as I drive my semi around making deliveries.  And as a final example, my wife's cousin's baby momma won't marry him because she is getting to much in benefits.  She doesn't work a full time job, she works two jobs, but one of them pays her under the table so she doesn't get caught.  I drives me absolutely bonkers and she and I have had a few heated arguements over it.

(1) source http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html
Tycho
GM, 1753 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 14:14
  • msg #39

Re: The bailout

gammaknight:
I have thought about that.  Did you know that until 1862 we didn't have any income taxes?  Instead we taxed only "sinful" goods and some business transactions(1).  Also make sure you read down on what Reagan did to the tax system.

If you want to go back to living life like it was in 1862, more power to you.  But I sort of like the advances we've had since then, and am quite happy to pay for them with taxes.  As to what Reagan did, remember that Reagan ran up a huge deficit.  He cut taxes, but spent lots of money anyway.  Go team.  Bush did the same over the last 8 years.  He had a big budget surplus when he took over, and turned it into a huge deficit.  If that makes you cheer, great.  But I think we should pay for what we buy, not just bill it to future generations.

gammaknight:
I understand that the government needs money to do civil services that benefit all, but how does welfare benefit all?

Everyone is better off if there aren't as many people living in poverty.  Will some people abuse it?  Yep, probably.  I'm willing to let a few people get a free ride, if it means people who really are working hard get the breaks they need to succeed.  I'd rather tolerate a few deadbeats than let hardworking people starve when they hit a bit of bad luck.  I'm willing to tolerate a few people getting more than they deserve, if it means nobody has to eat catfood to get by when they're 80 years old.  It all comes down to what bothers you more: some people getting more than they deserve, or some people getting less than they deserve AND need.

gammaknight:
I don't want half a billion going to Alaska every year by Alaska's Senetor who is now being investigated for fraud.

That's not wellfare, that's pork barrel spending.  Everyone is against that (except when it benefits them).  If you have a solution, I'd love to hear it.  But keep in mind that it's a small fraction of the budget.  It's a good idea in general principle to eliminate it, but it's not going to have a significant impact on the amount of taxes you pay.


gammaknight:
Oh and my wife works at a local school and sees it all the time, and I have seen myself.  I see it everyday as I drive my semi around making deliveries.  And as a final example, my wife's cousin's baby momma won't marry him because she is getting to much in benefits.  She doesn't work a full time job, she works two jobs, but one of them pays her under the table so she doesn't get caught.  I drives me absolutely bonkers and she and I have had a few heated arguements over it.


I asked this last time, but you didn't reply: are you mad because they're taking something from you, or is it just because you feel they're getting an easier ride than you?  Is it actually the amount wellfare costs that's got you so upset, or is it just an issue of principle for you?

It's an important question, I think.
katisara
GM, 3315 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 14:32
  • msg #40

Re: The bailout

I too think Tycho's post about bubbles and shifts is a good one, and I do agree.  I happen to think depressions are in fact part of 'fixing' things, even if it's not a desirable part (however, the US only seriously began to suffer from depressions after we shifted away from true capitalism and began unnecessarily regulating the market, especially through protectionism).  I've not seen anything indicating that a truly free market would suffer prolonged depressions (but I haven't really been looking for that either).

But Tycho's question is a genuine one.  What services should serve to the whims of the market?  Should retirement funds?  House values?  Fire protection?  (As an aside, I think when gammaknight was commenting about taxes being wrong, he meant federal taxes.  Federal taxes pay for only some of the highways, and none of the fire, police or garbage pickup gammaknight generally enjoys.  Those come from state or, more commonly, county taxes.  If gammaknight doesn't want to pay them, it's generally not an issue to simply move to another county, or to work within the county.  This is not a real option with federal taxes.)

I do have to say, given the shift in information technology, perhaps moving more to decentralization, I'm wondering if our current form of federally-controlled capitalism will continue to be the most effective system (or among the most effective systems) currently available to us.  If we truly enjoy decentralization in the near future, a return to either pure, small-scale socialism or anarcho-capitalism (the two of which are not mutually exclusive) may be possible.  Hard to debate, but fun to think about.
gammaknight
player, 41 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 14:36
  • msg #41

Re: The bailout

What gets me so hopped up, to which I sincerely appologize for, is the corruption.  I understand that it is hard to remove it, but what I would like is for those that are doing the handing out to check up and make sure that these people aren't frauding the government, and to not punish those that are working for their money.

I would like a fair or flat tax.  I like the Fair tax the best, but a flat tax would do most the same thing.  Lock up Social Security so that Congress can't use it as an extra fund and keep throwing IOU's into it.

My wife and I did try, in our younger and dumber years, to get assistance and, because we were married, we were disqualified (we were making about 35K a year at the time).  My wife recently went to check to see if we could get some help due to the fact that my sons are ADHD in a bad way and my daughter had just broken her leg.  They told my wife we would qualify if she stayed home (I now make the 35K a year by myself).  Now why would they tell her to stay home now, but they wouldn't help us when we were making the same money before, but between the two of us?  It's like the system is set up to help those who don't want to work.

I understand that she would be taking care of our children, but she would have been doing the same thing if we could have gotten assistance earlier.

Please forgive me, I have been rather hard nosed in this thread, but I truely believe that you don't give money out all willie nilly and don't check up behind to make sure that it isn't being wasted.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:39, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
Tycho
GM, 1756 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 14:49
  • msg #42

Re: The bailout

One more time, though, gammaknight: is it the cost to you of other people abusing the system that really bothers you, or is it more just the idea of them getting an easier break than they deserve?  Is it the actual cost that gets to you, or is it seeing people get more than than they should?
gammaknight
player, 42 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 15:01
  • msg #43

Re: The bailout

I thought I had answer those questions.  If I didn't here are your questions with my answer underneath.

One more time, though, gammaknight: is it the cost to you of other people abusing the system that really bothers you, or is it more just the idea of them getting an easier break than they deserve? 

I was going to say the first, but then thought hard about your question and have to go with the second.  No one should have an easier time because they are in some "group", but all should be able to climb with the God given talents and abilities they have.

Is it the actual cost that gets to you, or is it seeing people get more than than they should?

Its not the cost, though high, and its not seeing people getting more than they should.  Its getting what they didn't work for that bothers me the most.

The solution to all these is government shouldn't be in the business of morality or charity, but should only be concern with removing as many hurdles from the people's way.  Not by giving them hand outs, but removing punishments and injustices.
Tycho
GM, 1761 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 15:43
  • msg #44

Re: The bailout

gammaknight:
Its not the cost, though high, and its not seeing people getting more than they should.  Its getting what they didn't work for that bothers me the most.

Okay, that's what I was looking for.  This is a natural human tendency, to get angry when others get something they didn't work as hard for as you would/do/have to/whatever.  At it's root, it's a jealously thing:  "I did it the hard way, why should they get it without the hard work?!"  We tend to feel that way, even when it has no direct impact on us.

Have a look at Mathew 20:1-16.  This is quite possibly my favorite of Jesus' parables, and I think it's very apt here.  We have a natural tendency to get angry when things aren't fair, even when the unfairness doesn't harm us, but only benefits someone else.  It's part of our nature, but it's not necessarily a good part of our nature.  We shouldn't get angry at people getting an easy ride.  We shouldn't begrudge others their good luck.  We shouldn't be angry when someone is generous to someone who doesn't deserve it.

This is why I brought up the question first.  I wanted you to really think about what it was that was bothering you.  We tend to talk about it in terms of the cost of wellfare, but really, its usually actually seeing people get something without working for it that bothers us.  It doesn't actually cost us much at all, and if we dropped wellfare, it wouldn't change our taxes all that much.  What bugs us is seeing people get something without working for it.  They show up "at the eleventh hour" and still get as much as us suckers who worked all day.  But that's not the way we should be thinking about it.  We shouldn't be so concerned about people getting more than they've worked for.  That's really not that big of a problem.  It seems unfair to us, but why do we get so upset about it?  If we truly are caring people, who honestly value the wellbeing of others (even those who don't deserve it), we should be happy to see that they're getting more than they deserve.  We should be glad for their good fortune, and glad that they're not starving instead.  It's not easy.  It's not human nature to be happy for people who don't pull their own weight.  But we should aim for it.  We should strive to do better than just human nature.
Falkus
player, 654 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 15:45
  • msg #45

Re: The bailout

but all should be able to climb with the God given talents and abilities they have.

But that's where capitalism breaks down, because they can't. If you work hard, all your life, devote every joule of energy you have to bettering yourself, you are very likely to die in the some economic class you were born in. Luck and opportunity are far more beneficial to improving your lot in life than hard work.
gammaknight
player, 46 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 16:12
  • msg #46

Re: The bailout

Mr Tycho, there is a flaw in your understanding of the parable.  The land owner is not the government.  If a person wishes to give out there money, more power to them!  But if the government wants to dole out my taxes, then we have a problem.

Glen Beck has said on more than one occation, "I have never gotten a job from a poor person, always some one who (had money or the rich)."
Tycho
GM, 1765 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 16:20
  • msg #47

Re: The bailout

I think you're missing the point about the parable.  It's not a parable about the landowner.  It's not telling us whether it's okay to give people more than they deserve or not.  It's about the workers who were there all day.  It's telling us not to get upset when people get more than they deserve.  It doesn't matter who's giving them something they don't deserve, whether it's God, the government, or your next door neighbor.  Whatever the case, your reaction should be the same: don't be offended that they got more than they worked for.  The parable is a message about our human nature to get angry when people get a free ride.

Remember, I asked you if it was the cost to you that bothered you, or the fact that they got a free ride.  You're trying to turn it back to the cost now, with statements like "dole out my taxes."  If you're really hurting because of the amount of your taxes that goes to wellfare, that's one thing.  But if you're upset because they're getting something they didn't work for, that's a different thing.

Again, look at the parable, and ask yourself if you think who the message was for: was it aimed at people who related to the landowner?  Was it aimed at people who related with the workers who showed up last?  I'm suggesting that we're supposed to view it from the point of view of all day workers.  If all you take away is "a rich person can give their money away, and more power to'em," I fear you've missed an important bit of the bible's wisdom.
gammaknight
player, 49 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 16:41
  • msg #48

Re: The bailout

I went back and read the parable and I see that it really wouldn't apply either way.  In the begining it says, "The kingdom of heaven is like. . ."  So this parable has nothing to do with earthly wages or greed, but more over it is pointing out that we should be happy that others are saved and not worry about when they were.  Basically a person who has been saved since 6 years old shouldn't begrudge an 80 year old man who converted on his death bed.  It ends with "So the last will be first, and the first will be last" which sets up how we are to treat others.

The parable before is about the rich young man who doesn't have the right motivation in his heart and the one after is Jesus talking again about him dying.

What I have been trying to get at is that the government shouldn't be forcing me to be charitable or tell me what needs be fixed by taking taxes and then turning around and wasting it on pork barrel and people who just want a hand out.
Tycho
GM, 1768 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 17:37
  • msg #49

Re: The bailout

gammaknight:
I went back and read the parable and I see that it really wouldn't apply either way.  In the begining it says, "The kingdom of heaven is like. . ."  So this parable has nothing to do with earthly wages or greed, but more over it is pointing out that we should be happy that others are saved and not worry about when they were.  Basically a person who has been saved since 6 years old shouldn't begrudge an 80 year old man who converted on his death bed.  It ends with "So the last will be first, and the first will be last" which sets up how we are to treat others.

Yes, it is about heaven.  But I would say that's not all it's about.  There's important wisdom there for more mundane aspects of life that shouldn't be missed.

gammaknight:
What I have been trying to get at is that the government shouldn't be forcing me to be charitable or tell me what needs be fixed by taking taxes and then turning around and wasting it on pork barrel and people who just want a hand out.

Again, though, it's one thing if you're upset about the cost to you.  It's another thing if you're just upset about people not working.  If the cost of these things is really affecting your lifestyle, then yes, you have a real argument to make.  If, on the other hand, it's more that it just rubs you the wrong way to see people not working very hard, and still living well, then I think the problem is actually more internal to you, than with the system.  I think it'd be better for you to change, and learn to accept that sometimes people will get more than they deserve, and that's not in and of itself a problem, than to expect the system to change a great deal.  Be how the landowner tells the worker in the story to be:  be happy that you got what your work warranted.  Don't worry yourself so much that others get something without working as hard as you do.

Put another way:  don't wish unpleasant things on others, just because you've had to endure them.  Instead, wish that other people don't have to endure them.  Hope that people get more than they deserve from life, not only what they do deserve.  Hope that people end up with more than you, rather than hoping they end up with just as much.  Begrudging people benefits they get without working hard is a form of selfishness, and is something we should avoid.

Again, if you're complaining about the actual cost to you of these programs, that's a different issue, and we can discuss that.  But if it's more an issue of seeing people get stuff without working for it, a change of attitude change your life for the better more than will a change in the system.
gammaknight
player, 53 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 18:03
  • msg #50

Re: The bailout

I am not wishing others have less, I am wishing people would not be so lazy.  I don't begrudge what they have, but how they got it.

I see and am humbled by your words.  I did have those feelings looking back.  What I truely wish is that all people would not just get, but work to get.  This kind of links to the teaching that those that have here will not have in heaven, while those that don't have, will have there.

I see your point.  I will endevour to think better.

Thank you.
katisara
GM, 3324 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 18:18
  • msg #51

Re: The bailout

You know one thing I give FDR credit for, he tied welfare into work.  I think if we set up more programs like that, that people on welfare did some form of work, no matter how useless, I would not complain as much.  Perhaps some of them dig holes, some teach a course, some paint art, some organize the library, whatever, as long as it's some personal investment in exchange for what they get out, I would have a good deal less issue with the program.
Tycho
GM, 1771 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 21:04
  • msg #52

Re: The bailout

I definitely am a fan of wellfare that is linked to working as well.  There's plenty of stuff that needs doing, but isn't "worth" doing in an economic sense, but which could very easily get done if our goal is just getting people employed.  Cleaning up public spaces, work on parks, etc., are all things that pretty much anyone can do without much training.  Even if they don't do a particularly good job of it, it's still of some benefit.  For some people, who are disabled, or injured, or whatever, it's not an option, but for people who can work, I'd support a program where they did some work for that wellfare check.  We shouldn't make it so much work so that they don't have time to look for other jobs, though.  But yeah, I agree with you on this one.
katisara
GM, 3328 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Wed 15 Oct 2008
at 13:31
  • msg #53

Re: The bailout

Even the disabled can do work.  Perhaps they check over reports for typos.  Perhaps they watch a video camera.  Right now we have thousands upon thousands of video cameras around critical infrastructure, and not nearly enough people to watch them all.
gammaknight
player, 62 posts
Wed 15 Oct 2008
at 20:19
  • msg #54

Re: The bailout

I got to thinking about my earlier additude about welfare recipients.  Tycho was right, I was angry that they had and I didn't, but I came to a realization today while driving the 2+ hours to my first stop.

They are stealing!

Now I am cool right now, calm, not angry.  What they are doing is taking tax money that they say they need and instead of being wise with the money, and maybe give back what they didn't use, they are buying things that they don't really need.

Why do they need that 40K lexus (approx)?  Why do they need designer cloths?  I don't, about the most designer I get is Levi shorts when their on sale.

I'm not upset anymore that they have, I am upset at the way they got it.

<calm, breathe in, breathe out, I'm okay>
katisara
GM, 3335 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Wed 15 Oct 2008
at 20:38
  • msg #55

Re: The bailout

To be fair, there are many people who do genuinely need the money.  There are people who did work but fell out of work, and still need money for food and rent, for their families.  There are also people who get welfare and 'deserve' it, but also have other sources of money (savings, gifts, loans, etc.) which may allow them to live better than they would otherwise.

That isn't to say there aren't people who don't abuse the system too.  I also don't think that means we should just say 'here, have some money', but attach it to something else so it is not preferable to looking for a real job.  But don't assume that all or even most people who get welfare don't have honest reasons, an honest need for it.
gammaknight
player, 65 posts
Wed 15 Oct 2008
at 20:57
  • msg #56

Re: The bailout

Can I ask this though?  Is it the governement's job to give anyone this money?  No where in the constitution does it say anything about welfare.  I believe it is private organizations, private citizens, and churches that are supposed to do this.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/index.html
Falkus
player, 659 posts
Wed 15 Oct 2008
at 21:28
  • msg #57

Re: The bailout

Can I ask this though?  Is it the governement's job to give anyone this money?  No where in the constitution does it say anything about welfare.

Is it specifically forbidden?
gammaknight
player, 67 posts
Wed 15 Oct 2008
at 23:44
  • msg #58

Re: The bailout

In reply to Falkus (msg #57):

Here is what is layed out in the Constitution for the Legislative branch in full.

Section 8. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes;

To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;

To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States;

To establish post offices and post roads;

To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court;

To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations;

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And

To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.



I don't see anything, anywhere in there.  Do any of y'all?
Falkus
player, 661 posts
Thu 16 Oct 2008
at 00:23
  • msg #59

Re: The bailout

The bit about general welfare of the United States under taxation? Helping the poor, providing education and medical treatment to those who can't acquire it on their own, I'd say that qualifies as the general welfare of nation.
katisara
GM, 3337 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Thu 16 Oct 2008
at 01:50
  • msg #60

Re: The bailout

Reread the line:

"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Congress can collect taxes for blah blah the general welfare.  It doesn't mean that Congress has the power to spend that money on anything and call it "the general welfare".  In this case, like "common defense" refers to the powers of congress to maintain a navy, raise an army, and lead a militia, "general welfare" refers to those civil powers specifically enumerated.

And since the final amendment specifies that all powers not given to the federal government stay in the hands of the states (lower case) or the people, that means the federal government cannot provide that service.  Not that most people care.  We stopped sticking to the constitution well before FDR came around.
Falkus
player, 663 posts
Thu 16 Oct 2008
at 02:55
  • msg #61

Re: The bailout

That's the Madison viewpoint, yes. I prefer the Hamilton interpretation. And Helvering v. Davis supports that interpretation.
Tycho
GM, 1783 posts
Thu 16 Oct 2008
at 09:56
  • msg #62

Re: The bailout

gammaknight:
I got to thinking about my earlier additude about welfare recipients.  Tycho was right, I was angry that they had and I didn't, but I came to a realization today while driving the 2+ hours to my first stop.

They are stealing!

No, they're not.  Stealing is taking from someone without permission.  Wellfare is given out, willingly.  You might say the government is stealing, by taking your tax money.  But the people on wellfare aren't stealing.  You can say they don't deserve the money, but that's different from stealing, and it brings us back to the parable.

Here's another spin on it:  right now, some people on wellfare really need it, and some people are abusing the system.  We could, if we put more effort and money into the system, do more to make sure that only the people who weren't abusing it go the money.  Would you be willing to spend more tax money on wellfare, in order to ensure that less people abused it?
katisara
GM, 3339 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Thu 16 Oct 2008
at 12:58
  • msg #63

Re: The bailout

Oh Hamilton...  You are correct, he would (and probably did) espouse that view.  I won't go into ad hominem attacks against Hamilton, but I will say, I prefer reading the words that are there, rather than squinting to read the words that aren't there.  The sentence says "the government can collect taxes for (these purposes)."  It then goes on to say what it can spend money on.  It wraps up by saying it can't do anything not specifically listed.
katisara
GM, 5330 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Wed 5 Sep 2012
at 12:45
  • msg #64

Re: The bailout

Also bumping this topic. Not sure who has been following the news, but there's actually been an audit of the Federal Reserve. The findings were astounding; $14 Trillion dollars in secret loans. Trillions still outstanding. Clear conflicts of interest and no accountability.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/...e2-a753-62060dcbb3c3

And a little more sensational:
http://beforeitsnews.com/econo...artling-2449770.html

The counter-argument is that the fed needs to be able to work with autonomy and secrecy, since public knowledge of these things can negatively impact the economy, causing serious damage.

What do you think?
Heath
GM, 4964 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Occupation: Attorney
Wed 5 Sep 2012
at 16:23
  • msg #65

Re: The bailout

And as it turns out, hundreds of billions of dollars of stimulus and American money has been routed to other countries that should have stayed here.  So much for a stimulus for America.  This is outsourcing of American tax dollars.  At least businesses have a good excuse to do it; our own government does not.
Trust in the Lord
player, 82 posts
Sat 15 Sep 2012
at 20:58
  • msg #66

Re: The bailout

I think it is ridiculous that tax payers are held foot the bill because of people who were dishonest in the way this money was given out, or "loaned" out. Quite frankly, I think it's a joke that the tax payers had the opportunity to support these business and investment companies in the past, and as obvious as it should be, decided to not support them enough to keep them profitable, and now the government came in and made the people give support enough to make them profitable anyway.
Revolutionary
player, 71 posts
Sat 15 Sep 2012
at 22:36
  • msg #67

Re: The bailout

In reply to katisara (msg # 64):

This is the classic problem of "Who watches the watchers."
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