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05:52, 10th May 2024 (GMT+0)

The bailout.

Posted by TychoFor group 0
katisara
GM, 3296 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 13:58
  • msg #18

Re: The bailout

Something interested (and related) I just read on Global Guerrillas http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/globalguerrillas/

quote:
SYSTEMIC SHOCKS
A top-level conclusion from my book Brave New War is that security in the future, from economic to physical to environmental to social, will be measured by our responses to a never-ending series of global systemic shocks derived from a plethora of sources. Unfortunately, we are likely to fare badly. The reasons for this are simple, the global system is:


Too Big. Simply, the system's scale is far beyond the ability of nation-states, or a community of nation-states, to manage when it suffers a breakdown. In the case of the current financial collapse, the global shadow banking system (a globally inter-networked collection of unregulated financial products) is approximately $450 trillion, as compared to a US GDP of $15 trillion or a global GDP of ~$60 trillion. Put another way, the financial liabilities of the highly leveraged Deutsche Bank are 80% of Germany's GDP and Barclay's liabilities are 100% of the UK's GDP. As the leverage underlying the shadow banking system unwinds and more banks fail, the scale of the loses experienced will rapidly exceed nation-state budgets.


Too Fast. The speed at which shocks spread in this globally interconnected system is faster than the response time of governmental institutions (tight coupling). In this financial crisis, the cascade of failure in the system spreads at the speed of information networks and computer automation in trillion dollar increments. The upshot is that the government's impacted will likely take hasty measures, like the 3 page Paulson plan in the US, without the analysis, orientation, or synthesis necessary to produce high quality results.


Too Complex. The system's function is beyond understanding. This is due to a lack of data (opacity either due to the nature of the system or by design as in the shadow banking system), the number of variables or connected systems, a lack of long term historical data on its operation in its current configuration, etc. The result is that efforts to mitigate the system's excesses produces pyrrhic victories (where the corrective action produces negative outcomes, like how efforts to ramp biofuel production impacted food prices). Worse, due to the system's complexity and the lack of an effective means to address its excesses, we are reduced to treating symptoms of failure (as with the Paulson plan) and even then under violent debate.

Epilogue

The inevitable outcome of systemic shocks at this magnitude will be an inevitable delegitimization of the nation-state as our trust in the ability of leaders to take effective corrective action evaporates. Further, nation-states will expend the majority of their resources on hasty and relatively ineffective corrective actions, which will make them collectively more prone to damage in the future and which will preclude the investments required to mitigate future crises. The cycle of delegitimization and resource depletion will continue until the nation-state is unable to respond at all to future calamity (the scale of this financial crisis is such, we may as well forget about any chance of early action to delay or prevent global warming, peak oil, water scarcity, food shortfalls, pandemics, etc.). In short, we will see a proliferation of hollow states.


NOTE: Due to the networked design of our global system, small events can be amplified into global shocks -- either through unmitigated positive feedback loops or a breakdown in the system's core assumptions.


What do you suppose will happen when banks owe more than the country they reside in actually makes?  Will a dollar mean anything when your nation makes $100T a year, and the banks residing in it owe $150T to other nations, banks and individuals?
Trust in the Lord
player, 1003 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 14:09
  • msg #19

Re: The bailout

What if 700 billion isn't enough, would any one have any issues after investing so many billions, investing another 300 billion the following year? And what if needed another 50 billion every 6 months?

Once they have the ok to go that far, you have to accept that it will cost much much more. Let's also point out it's a 700 billion loan being added into the system. What's 700 billion plus interest?

If you take out a mortgage, say a 1 million dollar home, even at a small percentage, how much do you end up paying in interest?

Multiple that to a 700 billion dollar loan made in American dollars which have already dropped in value substantially. And than multiple it again when they start taking more money that originally planned.


So here's the question. If 700 billion is added to the system, why would that prevent a collapse of the economy? How would it prevent it? Would it prevent it for a month, a year, a decade? How long will it prevent it from happening?
This message was last edited by the player at 14:10, Fri 03 Oct 2008.
Tycho
GM, 1697 posts
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 14:41
  • msg #20

Re: The bailout

Trust in the Lord:
What if 700 billion isn't enough, would any one have any issues after investing so many billions, investing another 300 billion the following year? And what if needed another 50 billion every 6 months?

This is a good point.  Part of the senate's plan, if I recall, did stipulate giving only part of the sum at first, and requiring progress reports of some sort from the Fed before each increment was disbursed.  Whether congress would actually have the gumption to tell them "no" at any point, though, I'm not sure.

Trust in the Lord:
What's 700 billion plus interest?

The cost of the iraq war so far? ;)

Trust in the Lord:
So here's the question. If 700 billion is added to the system, why would that prevent a collapse of the economy? How would it prevent it? Would it prevent it for a month, a year, a decade? How long will it prevent it from happening?

I think the theory (again, I'm not qualified to say if it's correct or not), is that by buying up the illiquid assets of these banks, they would get the liquid assets they need to be able to lend money, and thus avoid all the problems katisara mentioned in his post.  As for how long it would prevent it, I guess until these companies get all their assets locked up in questionable debt again.  I don't think anyone has any idea on how long that will be.  Will it prevent it from happening again?  The $700 billion itself won't.  Whether new laws will/could is the real issue, and whether voters are willing to tolerate the downsides of the laws that would be required to prevent it from happening again.  Probably, though, laws would end up being made to stop the exact same thing from happening again, when the bigger threat is whatever the next bubble turns out to be (ie, the laws the make to stop another mortgage bubble might not stop a new, different type of bubble that results in a similar mess).  One thing to keep in mind, though, is the cost of not spending this $700 billion.  I think everyone agrees that bailing out these companies is a bad idea.  Some people just seem to think not bailing them out is a worse idea, though!  Who's right?  I don't know.  But it definitely seems like a case of picking the least horrible option.

One thing I'm not entirely sure on is why everyone is convinced it has to happen right now!  Seems like this is the kind of thing where taking the time to do it right would be a good idea, but those in favor seem to want it now, now, now!  I'd prefer the people passing laws not be in quite such a panic when they do it.  In that respect, it does seem a bit like the patriot act.
katisara
GM, 3297 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Fri 3 Oct 2008
at 15:28
  • msg #21

Re: The bailout

Tycho:
As for how long it would prevent it, I guess until these companies get all their assets locked up in questionable debt again.


That's precisely the question, plus the comments above about how taxpayers would be assuming the risks and bankers taking the profit.  If anything, a complete bail-out would ENCOURAGE a future spiral because it encourages risky practices.

Another economic theory is that free markets (which we haven't enjoyed for almost a century now) have natural rises and falls.  The falls are necessary to clear out the bad debt and companies and make space for new growth.  We've basically artificially maintained growth since the 80s.  Even the dot com bust was partially mitigated by artificial market manipulation.  So some people are of the opinion that an eventual crash is inevitable, and the sooner we get it done with, the better we'll be (since there will be less bad debt to get rid of).  Whether they're right, that a dip is inevitable, so let's get it out of the way, or the contrary view that with appropriate manipulation we can keep constant growth is correct, is a matter of significant debate.  Ron Paul is very clearly in the former party.


quote:
One thing I'm not entirely sure on is why everyone is convinced it has to happen right now!  Seems like this is the kind of thing where taking the time to do it right would be a good idea, but those in favor seem to want it now, now, now! 


I think the theory is that it's like a self-feeding death spiral.  Banks A, B, C and D all have debts with each other, and all have a certain amount of bad debts.  A goes under.  Now B, C and D all have more bad debt, because their debts from A have gone bad.  This makes it tougher to survive, perhaps forcing B to go under.  Now C and D are in an even worse place.  We're seeing that right now as a chain reaction, starting with Countrywide (or perhaps earlier) is toppling bigger and bigger lenders.  If you nick it in the bud early, by buying out A, that reduces stress on B, C and D preventing further damage.  If you wait until D is the only one left standing, you're already in a depression and there's not much you can do.

However, it's correct that rushing politicians dealing with huge numbers is a guarantee for waste and fraud, and we're seeing that right now.  I'm not too keen on that either.

The Cato Institute seems to be supporting the idea of individualized bail-outs on a case-by-case basis, which seems most logical.  A collapses, the government decides they aren't worth saving, and lets them go.  B collapses and the gov't recognizes C and D own substantial portions, and so chooses to keep B up with conditions specially made for their situation.  I personally am coming to like this because it encourages a case-by-case examination, decreases fraud (at least a little), and softens the downward curve without eliminating it.  (The Cato institute leans Libertarian, although not nearly as much as Ron Paul.)
Jude 3
player, 211 posts
Contend for the faith
once delivered to you
Mon 6 Oct 2008
at 14:41
  • msg #22

Re: The bailout

Here's another article I thought was interesting.  It's kind of "after the fact" but helped me understand this dellema a bit better.

From NY Times, Sept 30, 1999:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...amp;exprod=permalink
Trust in the Lord
player, 1015 posts
No Jesus No Peace
Know Jesus Know Peace
Sat 11 Oct 2008
at 16:38
  • msg #23

Re: The bailout

gammaknight
player, 17 posts
Sat 11 Oct 2008
at 17:21
  • msg #24

Re: The bailout

Personally the bailout stinks of Socialism and the government should stay out of the market.

Capitalism is what we were built on and it should stay that way.
Falkus
player, 617 posts
Sat 11 Oct 2008
at 22:37
  • msg #25

Re: The bailout

The market can't be trusted to regulate itself properly, sometimes the government needs to get involved.
katisara
GM, 3308 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 01:25
  • msg #26

Re: The bailout

The market hasn't been allowed to regulate itself in any of our lifetimes.
gammaknight
player, 27 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 01:42
  • msg #27

Re: The bailout

And that is socialism Mr. Falkus.

There is no such thing as a little socialism, it is not there or all the way.  No in between.
Falkus
player, 646 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 03:17
  • msg #28

Re: The bailout

Fine by me. I'm a socialist.
Tycho
GM, 1744 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 08:54
  • msg #29

Re: The bailout

The idea of the market "regulating itself" is based on the assumption of equilibrium.  But in reality, we're never at equillibrium.  It's a useful, informative assumption to make, and it makes a light of economic principles much clearer, but it's also not a good assumption to make about reality.  Bubbles are a very real part of a free market system.  They happen not because of over regulation, but because of speculation.  There's nothing wrong with speculation, per se, but it's not adequately modelled by equilibrium theory economics.  People are starting look into non-equilibrium economic models now, and they're starting to be able to model bubbles and crashes (though not predict them--seems they're a non-linear effect).

The question becomes: can we live with bubbles and crashes?  In some industries, we surely can.  In others, though, it seems we're not willing to just let people suffer for making bad investments during a bubble, because the effects on the economy as a whole are too big.  That's what we're seeing right now.  We're not willing to let all the investment banks, real estate giants, etc. fail, because if they do, too many people will loose too much money.  Now, that's a judgment we have to make.  I'm not entirely sure where I stand, to be honest.  But IF we decide we can't live with bubbles, THEN we have to accept that a totally free market won't work, because totally free markets do end up with bubbles and crashes.  That means accepting external regulation aimed at eliminating bubbles and crashes.  It means eliminating reducing the leverage used in these industries that can't afford to fail.

In the end it comes down to this: you can't have a really high return AND no risk at the same time.  If we can't accept any risk in certain industries, we have to realize that returns will be lower.  We also have to realize that the markets are not magical cure-alls.  Free markets don't automatically lead to the perfect price.  Again, the idea that they do is based on an assumption of equilibrium, which isn't met in the real world.  We need to realize that this idea of "if we just leave the market alone, everything will sort itself out," isn't actually true (unless you count things like depressions as "sorting itself out").  Markets are made up of people making human decisions.  Just because they're are more of them, don't expect them to make perfect decisions.  Large groups of people are very capable of making very bad decisions, all at the same time.
gammaknight
player, 32 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 10:35
  • msg #30

Re: The bailout

You make a valid point Tycho.  I for one am comfortable with a free market.  Falkus admits to being a socialist and I applaud him for his openness, but socialism didn't make this country great, capitalism did.

Socialism is bad, it doesn't reward anyone for taking a risk.  Did y'all know that Hershey failed at least twice before he started to put milk in his chocolate?  Once he succeeded he started to grow and in 1900 sold his company for a cool mill, which was a large sum then and moved.  Under socialism his company, as soon as it became large enough, would be gobbled up by the government. Why bother taking the risk?  You can see this in what the world thinks of the socialist countries.  England and Canada are jokes.  When was the last time you heard a good idea come out either one?  All socialism is is communism for bleeding hearts.

One final point on the bailout.  If this bailout was so grand and had to be done, why hasn't it been done yet?  This thing was going to save us, why did the market start tanking?  I can at least answer the second question, its because the people on wall street are waiting for their peace of the pie that my great-great-great-great grandson, if this country is even around then, will still be paying on.
Falkus
player, 648 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 11:16
  • msg #31

Re: The bailout

Falkus admits to being a socialist and I applaud him for his openness, but socialism didn't make this country great, capitalism did.

Luck and circumstance made your country great, not capitalism.

  Socialism is bad, it doesn't reward anyone for taking a risk

And pure capitalism punishes the poor.

Under socialism his company, as soon as it became large enough, would be gobbled up by the government.

I pay the cheapest electricity prices in the world because Hydro Quebec is a crown corporation that, nonetheless, turns a profit and isn't a drain on the taxpayer's finance. And because it's a monopoly here in Quebec, when the ice storm took down a lot of the lines, they were able to get them fixed far faster than a dozen companies would have, saving a lot of lives in the progress.

England and Canada are jokes.  When was the last time you heard a good idea come out either one?  All socialism is is communism for bleeding hearts.

Aside from the fact that we're the ninth largest economy in the world, one of the highest standards of living, the biggest trading partner of the US and your greatest supplier of foreign energy? I think socialism's working pretty well for us.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:37, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
Falkus
player, 649 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 11:33
  • msg #32

Re: The bailout

Question, gamma: If American capitalism is so great, why is that your banks are failing, while our Canadian banks aren't?
Tycho
GM, 1747 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 11:56
  • msg #33

Re: The bailout

gammaknight:
Socialism is bad, it doesn't reward anyone for taking a risk.

I think you don't actually understand what socialism is.  There are plenty of investment bankers in europe.  There are plenty of very rich people in socialist countries.

gammaknight:
Did y'all know that Hershey failed at least twice before he started to put milk in his chocolate?  Once he succeeded he started to grow and in 1900 sold his company for a cool mill, which was a large sum then and moved.  Under socialism his company, as soon as it became large enough, would be gobbled up by the government.

Um...what?  I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.  There are very big, very wealthy companies in socialist countries.

gammaknight:
Why bother taking the risk?  You can see this in what the world thinks of the socialist countries.  England and Canada are jokes.  When was the last time you heard a good idea come out either one?  All socialism is is communism for bleeding hearts.

England and Canada are jokes?!  I think there might be a lot of people who would take issue with that.

Out of curiosity, gammaknight, how much time have you spent outside of the US?  Do you know that the world thinks canada and the UK are jokes because you've been out in the world, talking to people about it, or is this just something you've been told by talk radio?  Which countries do you think aren't jokes?  Is the US the only one?
gammaknight
player, 34 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 12:11
  • msg #34

Re: The bailout

Capitalism doesn't punish the poor.  Look at Dave Thomas the founder of Wendy's.  He was an orphan who worked hard and died owning one of the largest burger joints arounds.  Capitalism punishes the lazy, and I believe what the Bible says, "He who will not work, should not eat."  We have to much of this in the US, to many bleeding heart liberals who coddle people.

What do I sound like?  Like I said before, I'm a realist.  Life is hard and only those who work diligently can succeed.  We were talking about stagnation in another thread, socialism promotes stagnation.  "Everyone stand around and get your check."  Please.  Don't give me a durn thing, I'll work for it myself.

I don't have a problem with helping those who can't work, that is one of the main charges of the church.  The government should have no hand in it.  Oh and by the way, the US, a capitalistic society, gives more to the down trodden privetly then any other socialist coutry hands down.

As per here
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19409188/

and here

http://www.usatoday.com/news/n...-25-charitable_N.htm

and here about christians

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,176163,00.html

and finally a look at Canada vs. USA

http://www.afpnet.org/ka/ka-3....8&folder_id=2345

Note: I just broused the articles, so I may have missed something in them, but you get the idea.

I understand that your economy is not as good as ours, but come on, we beat y'all by 6x (money amount) and 1 percentage point (percentage amount of income)!!!  Socialism better for society, yeah right!!

:)

Oh and just because something is cheap doesn't mean it's good.  I have to agree with you on the monopoly thing, but only to a point.  A monopoly can make things easier to accomplish, like the old AT&T.  I miss it from time to time, but I also understand why it had to be broken up.  Now if there is another nationwide At&T it wouldn't have a monopoly now because of the internet and cell phones, but that's another story.

Now tell me what I sound like.  I hope you will see that I sound like some one who wants everyone else to pull their own weight and not rely on a government hand out by taking my hard earned money.  That's my job to help them, not theirs.
Tycho
GM, 1749 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 12:44
  • msg #35

Re: The bailout

What you need to keep in mind, gammaknight, is that in addition to being a rich country, the US is also a very large country, with lots of people in it.  It terms of how much all of them put together give, yeah, the US is quite generous.  But based on how much americans give, compared to people in other countries, we're actually not as hot as we tend to think.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html

What you need to remember about "hand-outs" and laziness, is that hard work doesn't impact your income nearly as much as does having wealthy parents.  Yes, there are hard working people who've started poor and worked their way up.  But there are far, far more lazy people who've started rich, and stayed there, and there are far more people who have started poor, worked their butts off, and still ended up poor.  The goal of socialism is not to give everyone a hand out, but make it easier for someone who starts poor to work hard and get ahead.  It's also to avoid letting people starve.  You might think those who don't work should starve, but I personally would rather help a freeloader live than watch him die.

Let me guess something else about your views:  you also think estate taxes are wrong.  You think the government taking money away from a rich person who wants to leave it to their child is horrible unethical.  Am I right?  But what happens to your "no handouts, everybody works" cries then?  Where are your "no free rides!" demands when parents pay for their children's education?  The idea that a person's wealth is a direct result of their work only works if everyone starts at the same level.  As it is now in the US, having wealthy parents is a far, far greater advantage than is a good work ethic, intelligence, etc.

You ask what you sound like.  My answer is that you sound like someone who doesn't care about other people.  You sound like someone who only cares about yourself.  You sound like someone who is so convinced that USA is number one no matter what, that you don't look at what life is like in other countries to notice that many of them have higher standards of living than the US.  You also sound like someone who's never had to decide between paying his mother's medical bills, and buying shoes for the kids.  You sound like someone who believes everyone who has money problems is lazy, and that everyone who is rich must be a real hard worker.  You sound like someone who believes that everyone who can't find a job isn't actually looking.  You sound like someone who likes to tell everyone how great he is, how right he is, and how foolish everyone else is, without realizing that they're actually doing better than you.  In short, you sound a great deal like a lot of conservative christians in the US, but very little like christ.
This message was last edited by the GM at 12:48, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
gammaknight
player, 37 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 13:12
  • msg #36

Re: The bailout

Not to hot in our giving?  We are number 4 in the list. Not bad I would say.  Not good, but not bad either.

Just out of curiousity who is infoplease.com and how do they get their info?  I hope they aren't like Wiki where anyone can change or submit info.

You are correct on the rich parent thing, but that is not a government issue, but a parenting issue.  I am not wealthy by any stretch, but I am not going to give my kids anything.  They are going to have to work to get what they want.  All taxes are wrong, especially estate taxes.  Lets see if I can say this right.. What a person does with their money is their choice.  The current liberal mind bent that has been hammered down our throats is that we should be protecting our children because we love them.  BS!!  I say you give the child the tools to succeed and stand back.  Watch them fall and fail, that is how they learn.  It's called tough love.

I do care about people, I care enough that they should help themselves or got to others, not the government.  What I don't want is someone else telling me I have to give taxes so the government can do good works.  No, Jesus said that you go not let the government go.  Charity begins at home.  I only make 50K a year between my wife and I and I have been lazy in the past.  Only 2 years ago we only made 35K, I got a CDL and thus make by myself what my wife and I made together.

I worked hard to do it and am reaping the benefits.

I just tier of all the welfare mommas and dog-like daddys sucking up all my hard work is all, telling the government they need help while they drive lexuses and wear Apple Bottom jeans.  While I have to decide hot dogs and mac and cheese for how many days intermixed with spaghetti and have to buy from Good Will or Wal-Mart clearance racks.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:26, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
Tycho
GM, 1751 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 13:29
  • msg #37

Re: The bailout

Yes, as the richest nation in the world, being 4 isn't that hot.  We're also 15th on the list in terms of government giving, or 14th on the in terms of total giving.  It may be "not bad," but it certainly undermines your "we're way more generous than everyone else" argument.  And considering most of the countries on the list are socialist, it also contradicts your assertion that the US is more generous because it's capitalist.

If you look at the bottom, you can see where they get their info:
quote:
Source: © Center for Global Development and Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. From “Ranking the Rich,” Foreign Policy, May/June 2004. Reprinted with permission.


As for "all taxes are wrong," remember that when you drive on a road next.  And when your garbage is picked up.  And when you put your "support the troops" bumper sticker on your car.  And when you send your kids to school.  And when a fire truck or ambulance drives by.  These things don't show up on their own.  They didn't just appear there because America is so great.

gammaknight:
I just tier of all the welfare mommas and dog-like daddys sucking up all my hard work is all, telling the government they need help while they drive lexuses and wear Apple Bottom jeans.  While I have to decide hot dogs and mac and cheese for how many days intermixed with spaghetti and have to buy from Good Will or Wal-Mart clearance racks.

And just how much of your hard work do you think that's sucked up?  Give me a guess at how much you think you've paid for these supposed lexuses (by the by, have you ever met anyone on wellfare driving a lexus, or did you just hear of one somewhere)?

Put another way: are you mad because they're taking something from you, or is it just because you feel they're getting an easier ride than you?  Is it actually the amount wellfare costs thats got you so upset, or is it just an issue of principle for you?
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:34, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
gammaknight
player, 39 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 13:50
  • msg #38

Re: The bailout

I have thought about that.  Did you know that until 1862 we didn't have any income taxes?  Instead we taxed only "sinful" goods and some business transactions(1).  Also make sure you read down on what Reagan did to the tax system.

I understand that the government needs money to do civil services that benefit all, but how does welfare benefit all?  I don't want half a billion going to Alaska every year by Alaska's Senetor who is now being investigated for fraud.
(I can't remember the service that reported this, but it had something to do with transperancy in government or something like that.)

Oh and my wife works at a local school and sees it all the time, and I have seen myself.  I see it everyday as I drive my semi around making deliveries.  And as a final example, my wife's cousin's baby momma won't marry him because she is getting to much in benefits.  She doesn't work a full time job, she works two jobs, but one of them pays her under the table so she doesn't get caught.  I drives me absolutely bonkers and she and I have had a few heated arguements over it.

(1) source http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html
Tycho
GM, 1753 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 14:14
  • msg #39

Re: The bailout

gammaknight:
I have thought about that.  Did you know that until 1862 we didn't have any income taxes?  Instead we taxed only "sinful" goods and some business transactions(1).  Also make sure you read down on what Reagan did to the tax system.

If you want to go back to living life like it was in 1862, more power to you.  But I sort of like the advances we've had since then, and am quite happy to pay for them with taxes.  As to what Reagan did, remember that Reagan ran up a huge deficit.  He cut taxes, but spent lots of money anyway.  Go team.  Bush did the same over the last 8 years.  He had a big budget surplus when he took over, and turned it into a huge deficit.  If that makes you cheer, great.  But I think we should pay for what we buy, not just bill it to future generations.

gammaknight:
I understand that the government needs money to do civil services that benefit all, but how does welfare benefit all?

Everyone is better off if there aren't as many people living in poverty.  Will some people abuse it?  Yep, probably.  I'm willing to let a few people get a free ride, if it means people who really are working hard get the breaks they need to succeed.  I'd rather tolerate a few deadbeats than let hardworking people starve when they hit a bit of bad luck.  I'm willing to tolerate a few people getting more than they deserve, if it means nobody has to eat catfood to get by when they're 80 years old.  It all comes down to what bothers you more: some people getting more than they deserve, or some people getting less than they deserve AND need.

gammaknight:
I don't want half a billion going to Alaska every year by Alaska's Senetor who is now being investigated for fraud.

That's not wellfare, that's pork barrel spending.  Everyone is against that (except when it benefits them).  If you have a solution, I'd love to hear it.  But keep in mind that it's a small fraction of the budget.  It's a good idea in general principle to eliminate it, but it's not going to have a significant impact on the amount of taxes you pay.


gammaknight:
Oh and my wife works at a local school and sees it all the time, and I have seen myself.  I see it everyday as I drive my semi around making deliveries.  And as a final example, my wife's cousin's baby momma won't marry him because she is getting to much in benefits.  She doesn't work a full time job, she works two jobs, but one of them pays her under the table so she doesn't get caught.  I drives me absolutely bonkers and she and I have had a few heated arguements over it.


I asked this last time, but you didn't reply: are you mad because they're taking something from you, or is it just because you feel they're getting an easier ride than you?  Is it actually the amount wellfare costs that's got you so upset, or is it just an issue of principle for you?

It's an important question, I think.
katisara
GM, 3315 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 14:32
  • msg #40

Re: The bailout

I too think Tycho's post about bubbles and shifts is a good one, and I do agree.  I happen to think depressions are in fact part of 'fixing' things, even if it's not a desirable part (however, the US only seriously began to suffer from depressions after we shifted away from true capitalism and began unnecessarily regulating the market, especially through protectionism).  I've not seen anything indicating that a truly free market would suffer prolonged depressions (but I haven't really been looking for that either).

But Tycho's question is a genuine one.  What services should serve to the whims of the market?  Should retirement funds?  House values?  Fire protection?  (As an aside, I think when gammaknight was commenting about taxes being wrong, he meant federal taxes.  Federal taxes pay for only some of the highways, and none of the fire, police or garbage pickup gammaknight generally enjoys.  Those come from state or, more commonly, county taxes.  If gammaknight doesn't want to pay them, it's generally not an issue to simply move to another county, or to work within the county.  This is not a real option with federal taxes.)

I do have to say, given the shift in information technology, perhaps moving more to decentralization, I'm wondering if our current form of federally-controlled capitalism will continue to be the most effective system (or among the most effective systems) currently available to us.  If we truly enjoy decentralization in the near future, a return to either pure, small-scale socialism or anarcho-capitalism (the two of which are not mutually exclusive) may be possible.  Hard to debate, but fun to think about.
gammaknight
player, 41 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 14:36
  • msg #41

Re: The bailout

What gets me so hopped up, to which I sincerely appologize for, is the corruption.  I understand that it is hard to remove it, but what I would like is for those that are doing the handing out to check up and make sure that these people aren't frauding the government, and to not punish those that are working for their money.

I would like a fair or flat tax.  I like the Fair tax the best, but a flat tax would do most the same thing.  Lock up Social Security so that Congress can't use it as an extra fund and keep throwing IOU's into it.

My wife and I did try, in our younger and dumber years, to get assistance and, because we were married, we were disqualified (we were making about 35K a year at the time).  My wife recently went to check to see if we could get some help due to the fact that my sons are ADHD in a bad way and my daughter had just broken her leg.  They told my wife we would qualify if she stayed home (I now make the 35K a year by myself).  Now why would they tell her to stay home now, but they wouldn't help us when we were making the same money before, but between the two of us?  It's like the system is set up to help those who don't want to work.

I understand that she would be taking care of our children, but she would have been doing the same thing if we could have gotten assistance earlier.

Please forgive me, I have been rather hard nosed in this thread, but I truely believe that you don't give money out all willie nilly and don't check up behind to make sure that it isn't being wasted.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:39, Tue 14 Oct 2008.
Tycho
GM, 1756 posts
Tue 14 Oct 2008
at 14:49
  • msg #42

Re: The bailout

One more time, though, gammaknight: is it the cost to you of other people abusing the system that really bothers you, or is it more just the idea of them getting an easier break than they deserve?  Is it the actual cost that gets to you, or is it seeing people get more than than they should?
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