A requested topic for Vexen:

Because we are imperfect fallen being who can't save ourselves and only botch things up when we try.

Hey I love everyone, man.  <peace sign waves in the ari> :)

We do have to accept that people are not good by nature. By nature they are sinful.

This is observed by the many selfish and hurtful actions people do every day. Demons influencing people are also a factor.

We cannot be friends because 90% of the worlds population have a heirachial religion base.  Therefore they believe there must always be leaders, which everyone wants to be.

Instead of us all being teated like the equals we are.

Let me preface this with an article, or rather, a series of recent events.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.../mccain_angry_crowds











There's been a level of partisan conflict and distain, and maybe this isn't even the worst time in history for that, but recently, it's gotten pretty bad. These crowds at the Republican rallies have gotten a very spiteful feel to them.  I don't mean to be racial with this, I'm not insinuating that they're hating the man for his skin (in fact, I'm sure it's not exactly the case), but it has a very lynch mob-esque feeling to it. I've felt for a long time, that politics is the last bastion of hated. If people said this sort of thing about a religious figure, or a racial figure, it would be heavily scrutinized. But this kind of hatred is allowed in politics. It's okay for people like Rush Limbagh, Sean Hanney, and Chris Mathews to criticize the character and intelligence of people, simply because they disagree politically. It's okay to chastize them, make fun of the way they look or say things, be down right cruel, because they're not the same as us.

"Off with his head"? "Kill him"? "Terrorist!"? How could we had come to this point? And, what's worse is that the rallies want the candidate to be even more aggressive against Obama! What's next after kiling him? Killing his family? For being the Democratic candidate?

I give McCain all the credit in the world for standing up against this, it really does seem to come too little, too late. Over the past weeks, Republicans been feeding this idea that Obama is a terrorist, a traitor, abusive, a muslim, a foreigner, anything to denegrade his character, no matter how outrageous. And now, some people have started to believe it, to the point that they want to see bad things happen to him. He's not just the opposing party candidate. He's evil incarnate. I don't want to sound like I'm harping on one side only, it's simply that I'm not hearing calls for McCain's head, nor any accusations that he's evil.

This isn't a single incident, however, or even a recent problem. For years, we've been hearing the same sorts of rediculous accusations. That liberals want to destroy family. That they want a totalitarian government. That they're unamerican. That they're trying for the destruction of American values. That they're antireligous, and elitist.

But, Democrats aren't completely blameless, of course. I was recently watching a political show, where one of the guests, a very liberal one, said the Democrats are, statistically speaking, more decent people than than Republicans. That they're uneducated, Bible thumpers. That they're greedy and selfish. That they're racist, sexist, classist amoral tyrants. That they're war hungry, and bloodthirsty, who believe that might makes right.

Even in this forum of fairly inteligent, educated people, we see this very often. Heath has insinuated in the past on several occassions that anyone who's read up on the issues, reasonably intelligent, and sane will see that conservativism is the only logical way, even so far as to say that conservatism is clearly superior. Katisara has insinuated that Democrats are bad for the country. Faulkus has instigated on many occassions that conservatives and religious fundamentalists are simply ignorant and in denial. Even Tycho has had instances of implicating that a more libral stance is simply more ethical. And even I'm sure I've said a few things here and there in my frustrations.

McCain, bless him, says something that I think is right in this instance. Can't we accept that, for the most part, we're all decent people, who don't have malicious intents, or serious defects? Why can't it be that we simply disagree on things? Why must it be that one is better than the other? Is there no such thing as agreeing to disagree anymore?

I can accept that people have weaknesses. I can accept that sometimes, people have negative impulses. But for that reason alone, is that why we should be okay with this? Is that why we should let people hate each other for simply disagreements? Does that make it okay to wish someone ill because their life philosophy is different than yours? Why is this okay because people are capable of evil?

By the same token, why must the people and policies we support be flawless? Partisan supporters seem to love to point things in one side that they refuse the acknowledge on the side. They'll criticize the hollywood and media elite, and in the same breath, praise Reagan, a hollywood elite. They'll recall the patriotism of New York and it's people on 9/11, then in the next paragraph, tell how urban cities like New York are immoral centers of national decay. They'll point out how Obama has ties to Fannie and Freddie, but refuse to hear the ties McCain has. They'll hear about radical pastor of one candidate, but not the radical pastor of the other. They'll both talk about how their candidate took action against the financial crisis, and refuse to hear how the other one helped, or how little each actually did. Yes, McCain did coauthor a letter to the Feds about a warning in Fannie and Freddie, but it was about accounting practices, not about the loans themselves. Yes, Obama did write a letter to the Feds talking about how action neeeded to be taken about the morgate crisis, but it was only "after" things started to go downhill. Is it not possible that both candidates have suspicious connections and major flaws, much like each and every one of us do? Is it not possible that both Republicans and Democrats are responsible for good and bad things, neither any more or less really than the other?
This message was last edited by the player at 01:59, Sun 12 Oct 2008.

I don't think acceptable form to be hateful of others, but I accept that it occurs. That is our nature to be sinful.

While it natural to have disagreement, even people who fight to allow others their opinions have ridiculed those with differing opinions. Sinful people want to see others fall into sin. People by themselves really don't stand a chance of fighting that.

I'm sorry, but you seem to be rather indifferent towards it. How do you know people can't fight this kind of hatred? We've done it before. We've faught bigotry against racism, and made significant progress. We've faught against sexism and made significant progress. We've established a nation on the principle of the freedom of religion, and while it's not perfect, we're more free than ever before against the oppression of one dominant religion rulling everything.

Just because people can have negative tendancies doesn't mean that we should just sit back and let it happen within ourselves. Maybe we can't force everyone, but we can see this sort of development in our own behavior, can't we? Reexamine our views? Not spew hatred where it isn't warrented?
This message was last edited by the player at 02:06, Sun 12 Oct 2008.

We can't fight it on our own because we are sinful. Only with God can we even get past the sin.

I'm not say we accept it and be okay with it. I'm saying I accept that it exists.

What do you mean, we can't fight it on our own? I'm not calling God for this. I'm not sure if there is a God. Yet I am trying to question this, and do this. Isn't it possible that we, as people, can fight this? Do you honestly believe I'm not sincere because I'm not a theist? Are you saying that I will fail because I'm not with God? I'm sorry, but this seems like victim blaming to me.

What is your solution then, TitL? Must we all be Christians in order to solve this? Religious people can provoke hatred. Religious people can promote demonizing others. Maybe there are problems that we have to solve ourselves, instead of God. Can a person not simply look at themselves critically and try to understand their own views, as well as the perspective of others, without God's guidance? Is what I'm doing really not possible?
This message was last edited by the player at 02:51, Sun 12 Oct 2008.

It was Einstein who said, "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
We see it over and over and over and over.

We cannot fight on our own because we are sinful.

Yes, accepting Jesus will makes things better. That doesn't mean perfect people. That means you will be able to forgive, and be forgiven. To be able to love others. It won't be perfect, but that's okay.

I'm not capable of forgiveness? I'm not capable of loving others? When, after a fight with a friend, after he shoved me to the floor, later that night, I hugged him, and we apologized to each other, that wasn't really forgiveness? When my mom got in a serious car accident and I was in tears with worry, that wasn't love? When I stood up all night to help my brother with a school project because he needed my help, that's not love? What is it then?

I disagree with your notion that because we are sinful that we cannot fight sin. If this was true, no one would seek Jesus. It takes a will to fight against sin in order to seek help, and get yourself out of it. Maybe we can't be sinless without God, but to say that we are completely incapable of fighting sin within ourselves seems to be underestimating the human spirit. There are plenty of people who went to live good, respectable lives with and without God. Surely that is proof enough that we can do this.

Take us for example, TitL. I can see why you fight for creationism so much. I can see why a perfectly logical human being, with healthy emotions, morality, and intelligence could believe in creationism. There are logical points to Creationism, even if I don't happen to think it's necessarily the truth. Can you seek within yourself to do the same for your opponents? Can you understand why a perfectly rational, sane, intelligent person would believe Evolution and not believe in Creationsm? Could you see how someone could logically come to that conclusion that has nothing to do with deception, ignorance, or malice?

We can't fight it on our own because we are sinful. Only with God can we even get past the sin.

Nonsense, humanity is inherently good. The existence of the social contract proves that, people, in general, are willing to give up their own freedoms and rights for the good of society as a whole,

It's written in the bible that anyone can love those close to them. It's when one has to love their enemies that one needs help.



It's been a few thousand years now. How many people starve to death every day? How many wars are going on right now. How many lies are told every day? How many families are broken up through adultery? The victory is in the path we take. That path cannot be won on your own.

Of course. I don't think one need be the opposite of those points to come to the same conclusion either. Well no. Only with Jesus can you really understand what is going on. Even saying that I understand why you think the way you do. I used to think that way too.

Now you're saying something different. Saying that you can only love and forgive through Jesus is different than saying you can only love and forgive your enemies through Jesus. That's a very keen difference.

Still, however, what would you call what I'm calling for right now? I'm trying to reach understanding and commonality between people who have differences of opinion. Is this not part of loving your enemies? Is this not part of being respectful towards all people, not just the ones you agree with? Or is this all some farse? How about people like Ghandi, who sought respect and peaceful resolution without God? Was he a failure? Did he give into sin? Did he secretly hate and wish malice on others?



Ihat is evidense of sin, and imperfection in humanity. However, that is not evidense that people cannot fight sin or try to better themselves. How many people try to help those less fortunate? How many people try to live an honorable life? How many people try to raise the hopes of other at the cost of themselves? How many people give their lives to protect others, including those that hate them? How many people have lived in loving strong relationships? I'm not trying to prove that humanity can be sinless on their own. But I am trying to show that people can try to do what they can to better themselves, and there are people out there every day who do just that, and even without the belief in a Christian God. If there is a God, I'd say he gave us enough strength to at least do that. I believe your Bible even sited that, even before the gospels were written and the word of God reached people's ears, that there were some people who were in fact decent people, who did go and have familes and live a good life.



I don't think that either. But just by acknowledging this fact, aren't we comming to share with each other? To understand, and be more accepting? Aren't we doing this of our own will and power?



What about people with a medical degree? Can they not understand what is happening with our bodies? What about people who hold a geological degree? Can they not understand what is happening to the Earth? What about people with training in business, or economics, or engineering? Can they not understand what is going on in their various fields?

I'm not saying we understand the totality of existence and the universe. I don't think we need to understand that to relate to each other. To place faith in each other. To believe that the person I'm arguing with is a good, intelligent, decent person who lives a respectable life.

I understand that I am young, and that I might not believe the same things I do when I am your age. People rarely stay the same in every way. But can't you understand how I can be honest in my interpretation? That I can relate to you on some level? That I do not wish you any ill will, despite how much we conflict? Is that really too hard to grasp?

Sure, I'll go with that. Loving others is part of the issue though.

I think this is my point. I'm not saying we must sin. I'm stating without Jesus we will not get past sin. Our actions that are good do not remove our sins.

I do realize you believe that is true. Ultimately though, we as people cannot do it on our own.

I'm not so sure. Noah and his family were the only ones worth saving at one point of Earth's history. Even then, it was God who gave the grace to Noah.



I feel we're here because of God. God has something here in this forum that He wants us to see. Maybe it's not even for you or me, but just someone who clicks on this thread, and just reads it, not even a reply from them.



It's not about intelligence, it's about the way we look at things. With God, blinders come off. It's about the spiritual world that exists, and the war that is being fought.

Were not good or decent. We're sinful. The same reason I get smart ass or you belittle someone, or other users make fun of someone. None of us are perfect. All of us are sinful. However, having said that, you are going to live forever. I'm going to live forever. Through God, I hope to add influence as to where that forever will be spent. Your spirit is designed, created to live forever. Your body is not. We will all die. But that's only the beginning. With God, He wants us all to not settle for the world. When you aim for God, you get everything including the world. When you aim for the world, you get nothing but the world. Don't aim so low. There's way more out there then what you see in this physical world.

Age has nothing to do with it. Children have gotten it. I understand where you're coming from, and hold no ill for you. I can relate with many people. I hang out with sinners every day. This includes my family and friends. I'm not trying to disassociate with sinners, I want to associate with them. I come here and do my part. Spread the word. I tell the truth, and sometimes that results in conflict. I don't hate the person I am in conflict with. Personally, I would assume that most people in conflict will not hold ill will, but sinful nature sometimes means there will be ill will.

I'd think there are several things which really don't help.  Alcohol and drugs, charasmatic people saying that we should be killing other people, jealousy and envy, pride, none of these help.  But much of the problem is a lack of respect, and people forgetting the so-called Golden Rule 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'.  In other words, treat people the way you would like to be treated.
I believe that people are generally good and decent, but too many have been taught to ignore their conscience, that winning is everything, that the ends do justify the means.  Much of the hatred would not be there if people would remember that winning is not everything.

People are inherently sinful. We can see this by the repeated actions of with examples like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc  This has happened in the past, and continues still to this day.

You mention society as a whole gives up their freedoms in exchange for the good of society. But don't people benefit from this? Is it not in their interest to be safe? To have people protect them from thievery, mugging, murder?

Look at communism. The idea that people are equal is a good goal. But when people realize they get paid the same if the job is poor, mediocre, good or excellent, then they more often than not get done poorly. Their sinful selfish nature takes the easy road.

Ever hear of road rage? Why do good people get so angry if they are good?

Gang initiation is now more horrible then ever. Beating people up, raping, and random violence are some of the most common ways to be brought into the gang.

Terrorist action is now more horrible than ever. Where it is designed to create fear, where children are strapped with bombs so that people will not know safety because anyone can be a suicide bomber.

Stanley Milgram created an experiment that had people on the opposite side of a barrier, and had them set up to learn with a stimulus of electric shock. Wrong answers were supposed to have these people apply a shock to a person on the other side of this barrier. 65% of the people were willing to continue and apply increasing dosages of electric shock against another person even when it was obviously painful.

People are not inherently good. These actions could not continue without support.

We can see this by the repeated actions of with examples like Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc  This has happened in the past, and continues still to this day.

It's decreased. The atrocities of the past are worse than the ones today.

You mention society as a whole gives up their freedoms in exchange for the good of society. But don't people benefit from this? Is it not in their interest to be safe? To have people protect them from thievery, mugging, murder?

People benefit the most when other people sacrifice their rights and freedoms for society, not when they sacrifice them.

Ever hear of road rage? Why do good people get so angry if they are good?

Anger is evil?

Gang initiation is now more horrible then ever. Beating people up, raping, and random violence are some of the most common ways to be brought into the gang.

Crime has been decreasing steadily since the nineties.

Terrorist action is now more horrible than ever. Where it is designed to create fear, where children are strapped with bombs so that people will not know safety because anyone can be a suicide bomber.

Child soldiers have been around for a long time, but there's never been more awareness of the problem than now, and there never has been more people working to stop it than now.

Stanley Milgram created an experiment that had people on the opposite side of a barrier, and had them set up to learn with a stimulus of electric shock. Wrong answers were supposed to have these people apply a shock to a person on the other side of this barrier. 65% of the people were willing to continue and apply increasing dosages of electric shock against another person even when it was obviously painful.

That's because while man is good, we're also, unfortunately, somewhat obedient to authority. That's what the experiment was testing.

People are not inherently good. These actions could not continue without support.

People are not inherently evil. Society could not exist if they were.