I read today that Sharon Angle recently was on a talk radio show, and said that she opposed abortion, even in the case of rape or incest, because it would "interfere with God's plan."

We've already got at least on thread on abortion here, so that's not what I mean to discuss.  And we've got plenty of politics too, so no need to discuss our personal views of Angle.  What I'm actually interested in regarding her statement is the idea of "God's plan" that seems to involve bad things.

The view that 'bad things' happen as part of God's plan is pretty common.  Even if I don't agree with it, there's enoug people who do that it can't be dismissed completely out of hand.  Under the standard view, everything is part of the plan.  The good, the bad, the seemingly irrelevant.  God knows all, sees all, so everything that happens, from the holocaust to getting an A on your 3rd grade spelling test, to stepping in dog poo on the walk to work, it's all part of the plan.  He's got it all mapped out so that it ends like He wants it, and all the little details (and big events) of life have been set up to make it work just right.  That means some of the bad stuff you might think otherwise should be avoided (say, 9/11) have to be tolerated because they help us reach ultimate goal in the end.

Now, Angle's version changes it a bit, because in her view, it's possible to "interfere" with the plan.  In her view, there are some things we should do because they're in the plan, and somethings we shouldn't do because they're not.  At first this may seem like it's making the idea more sensible, in that it's allowing free will*, makes the final outcome unknown, etc.  But by not throwing out the idea that bad things are part of the plan, it really muddles things up.  Take the specific case she brings up: abortion in the case of rape.  To her, aborting would "interfere" with the plan.  But that means the rape was part of the plan.  It didn't need to be.  In this model, there are things, acts, events, etc. that aren't part of the plan.  Bad things don't happen because they're a necessary part of the plan, they may have happened because somebody didn't follow the plan.  How odd is it to think that God's plan involved the rape of a woman, but didn't allow for abortion?  If He was going to say "Hold on a second, that's not in the plan," wouldn't the appropriate place for Him to do so be before the rape occured?

Also, once we get into the realm where some things are part of the plan, and some things aren't, we get back to the question of why God allows certain horrible events to happen.  In the "it's all part of the plan" model, the bad bits are necessary to achieve the end goal.  But in the "some of it's part of the plan" model presumably some of the bad stuff isn't necessary, but He didn't do anything to stop them.  Or, if He does stop all the unnecessary bad stuff and only lets the necessary bad stuff happen, how could we 'interfere' with his plan?

Does it even make sense for falible humans to be able to interfere with God's plans?  Is God up in heaving saying "Oh crap!  I totally didn't think she'd get that abortion...that totally screws up my plan!  What am I going to do?!"

So what do people think?  Is the reasoning of "I have to do X in reaction to a bad situation because it's part of God's plan" sound?  Or is it the case that you can only logically have bad things be part of the plan OR be free to choose things that aren't part of the plan, BUT not both?


*for the record I think the first model is entirely consistent with free will, but others disagree.  We've got a thread for that debate too, if anyone wants to take issue with that point.

Her reasoning is basically "G-d says it has to be this way and not that other way because I don't agree with that other way and I like to think of myself as close to G-d."

It's self-serving and distasteful, in my opinion.

Too, it makes one wonder what her reaction would be to getting raped, mugged, assaulted, her house burned down, or any other number of horrible and horrific things. If she were beaten senseless and robbed, would she demand justice under the law or accept that it was G-d's plan and move on?

Bah. Like I said, I find it distasteful.

I can understand abortion incase the woman's very life was in danger. That's it. I don't care for arguments for abortion because of rape or incest.

Ironically i can see a point to her point of view *if* you take the idea of god a step sideways. If you move to the idea that God is managing chaos to a degree and takes something of an evolutionary view of 'the potter having power over the clay' then God essentially sits in his private viewing booth waiting to see where the opportunity for conception might occur (okay, this is starting to sound more like Q from start Trek than the Judeo christian God, but stick with me). When the rape occurs Q-God looks at the combinations of factors- both potential parent's genetics, the environment the child would likely grow up in, influential figures likely to enter their life, culture, paint chip content diseases they will face etc, and gives a thumbs up or thumbs down to conception.
Of course within this point of view Q-God presumedly has other ways to correct the course as well- natural disasters, disease, the occassional meteorite...
And it should be pointed out that this is also more or less the argument that was made a couple of centuries ago against lightning rods- that lightning rods were immoral because lightning was God's weapons to strike down the irredeemable. Until someone pointed out that a weapon which can be defeated by putting a metal rod on the roof is a pretty pathetic weapon for a deity, and now lightning rods are everywhere. Of course abortion has been arround for over 10,000 years and isn't even mentioned in the bible, didn't become a theological issue until the Catholic Church decided it should be, but hey, at least there is a theological model which sort of supports the underlying premise of her concept.
One final point- if she is correct then it would be equally interfering with God's plan to not have sex with someone when your future child was suppose to be concieved, so it would be equally immoral to refuse to have sex with whichever person(s) of the opposite gender should happen to take a hankering for you. Assuming (huge leap) that she followers her theology to its logical conclusion it would be impossible for a man to rape her because she would always be willing to have sex with any man under any conditions, and if she is willing it is not rape.

I think there is a point where religion truly does become a psychological crutch. "God's plan" is one of those places where the cross-over seems more common. Do I believe God has a plan? Of course; if you accept there's a higher being, and that that higher being has an interest in the actions of humans, that He has a plan seems just simple logic.

However, God having a plan does not excuse us from moral thinking or overcoming crises by our own power. It's just an excuse, either to assure oneself that, well, bad things happen to people, and bad things happened to me, but I shouldn't take action against it because it's ultimately to my benefit, or to say I am required to engage in this action, but I absolve myself of moral responsibility, because this action is required by a higher being.

If she had said "I oppose abortion because the Bible has made it clear that killing a living human is wrong under all but these particular circumstances, and that a fetus is a human being, as indicated by these sources," that's a valid moral argument (if based on shaky assumptions). Saying "I oppose abortion because God planned for that baby to be conceived, and therefore we must bring it to full term" is an argument against human will in all cases. You may as well say "God planned for me to be fat, so I should not diet".

Logically, you can extend this further.  Humans should extend no aid to others at all, ever, under any circumstances, you see, because that would be interfering in God's plan.

Don't abort that baby, but don't offer any medical help either.  Maybe God wants the mother to experience the pain of losing a child.  It will make her a better, more spiritual person. God's plan.

Where do these people come from?




Too Funny!  Having done a lot of planning at the professional level... lord help me, I can say things like "Decision Support Matrix" and keep a straight face... any serious plan is flexible and full of alternates and options, and looks more like a tree than a ladder.  We can only assume, then, that God is a crappy planner.

That's okay.  We've already determined God is a crappy civil engineer.

Huh?

Well, consider the design of the Human body.  What kind of moron runs the main sewage/waste lines through the middle of the recreation area?**

And let's not even go into why anyone would put the retinas in backwards, like He did.  Hooboy.


**(I think the infamous smell of New York's Riverbank State Park makes my point.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riverbank_State_Park

Obviously he's an electrical engineer. "I'll just fix it in the software".

If you do have an abortion, wouldn't that be part of God's plan?  If he's infallible you can't prove his plan wrong, so whatever you do was in the plan.

It's a stupid sidestep meant to add ambiguity to the issue; It was in the Gods' plans to rid the world of excess humans by instigating the War of Troy.  That it was part of their plans does not say anything about whether war is wrong or not.

This is especially true for Gods whom are both infallible and omniscient, because everything's part of their plan.  And thus, no matter your decision on whether you should abort a fetus or not, your eventual choice was all part of the plan.

But was your choice good, evil, neither, or somewhere in between?  This hasn't been answered.

Implementing the "Divine Plan" idea also paints the Divinity in question with horrible light. God also planned for you to get raped pregnant with the eventually aborted fetus.  God specially chose the rapist, planned every single unjust beating and molestation he'd receive by parents and strangers in order to screw him up enough to inspire his rapist tendencies.

Having planned every action seen as good would not redeem me from having planned every horror, misfortune, or tragedy seen as evil.

Additional Thought:

If a God has a Plan and cannot be proven wrong, yet you have Free Will despite this preposition, then the only conclusion I can come to is that the God's plan was authored by you.