It may be true, but you're not making a very effective argument for it :)

Not all people act rationally. Ask any psychotherapist.
Economics *assumes* that all people act rationally for the basis of it's definitions, including teh definition of value, from which you are deriving your evidence that all people act rationally. in short your proof is nothing but assumption.

If you could provide an example of an human acting irrational rather than asserting that some do, I'd have something to argue against.

Rational Choice Theory isn't just an economics model, as I already stated, and any psychotherapist who says a human isn't rational using the definition provided under the RCT isn't a very good one.

It's a theory used in Criminology, Sociology, and Psychology, among other fields that deal with human behavior.

Your assertions that humans do not choose the best possible option that they are aware of according to their subjective standards of value really needs an example or two, or else it is still just assertion.

A heroine addict knows that their addiction is killing them, they feel controlled by the drug, they wish they had never started using it, and know they are contributing to their own destruction but they still choose to inject themselves with what they know to be poison.

Okay, so... I'd have a practical religion-related question to you, people.

I love the general idea behind White Wolf's Mage: the Ascension (the old Mage game, not the new one - Mage: the Awakening). I'm enamoured with the general theme of the protagonists being believers / visionares with power to change the nature of reality. The problem? Being set in, more or less, the modern world, the game features quite a lot of stuff based on real-world occult beliefs. Like the magical paraphernalia: pentagrams etc. These things exist in real-world magic, too.

And so... I'm kind of torn about the game. As I said, I like the general idea - but the details based on real magic unnerve me. I'm an atheist, but I've been raised Catholic - and I've always been told that doing magic in real life is evil. So, what Mage, then? If a game, in a way, emulates things from real-life magic (which is supposed to be evil), then... is playing such a game evil, too?

To put it differently... According to what I've been raised to believe, if a person (in real life) started trying to summon spirits etc., that would be evil. And dangerous to that person, too. What about Mage, then? In that game, the characters tend to do quite similar things... So, is playing that game evil and / or dangerous?

On related note: what do you, in general, thing about RPGs incorporating symbols and concepts from real-life occult beliefs? Even in fantasy games, you'd find runes, pentagrams etc. Is it okay or not?

BTW. If anyone wonders why I actually worry about such matters, despite being an atheist... well, I'm may be an atheist, but I'm a superstitious atheist. It sounds terribly inconsistent, but that's how it is...

I’m not meaning this to be an attack on you personally, because I don’t like attacking people personally.  So if this comes off as a personal attack, correct me and let us move on; however, given what you just said, wouldn’t that make your more agnostic, given the definition of an atheist, given the etymology of the word, you still have some believe in the supernatural.  As an aside, I’ve encountered more Catholics turned atheist than have of any other religion that makes me more than a little curious if there isn’t some relationship between the two, but I digress.

Varsovian, in other rpg's you play, do you play characters that commit acts of violence (most rpgs)?  Or, resist the legal authorities (say, shadowrun)?  Or steal things (most rpg dungeon crawls)?

I'd say most people do things in rpgs that they would never do in real life.  You're telling a story, which isn't an evil act to me, even if it's a story about an evil person.  So my advice is to remember its a story, and leave the question of whether magic is good or evil up to the characters in the story.  You won't be doing any magic yourself, so no danger for you.

That said, some people have trouble with the IC/OOC separation, and view themselves as the character, etc.  If you have trouble separating what your character is doing, from what you're doing, certain types of games should probably be avoided, including anything that make you feel uncomfortable.

As for supersitious atheisism, I'll leave that for someone else, I think.

The number of RPG players is in the millions, yet the number of players lost to demon attacks, curses and witchcraft is still 0 :)

A major part of magic is belief. If you don't believe you're doing magic, you're okay. A second major part of magic is the levels of strictures and rules which must be met. I've yet to see an RPG which even approaches them. Yes, many RPGs use symbols which can be used in magic, and yes, symbols have power, but in that context, it's just for color.

Until your game requires you change religion, or provide blood, I wouldn't worry about it being much of a threat.

Well, you may be right. I realize that I kind of straddle the line between being an atheist and an agnostic.

In a way, I'm like the Ancient Romans, who believed in their own patheon, but also dedicated some altars to the "unknown gods"... just in case.



Really? That's an interesting observation...



That's a valid argument. On the other hand, there's this problem I'd playing a magic-practicing character because, frankly, I find such character to be cool...



Maybe I should do so... Although it's not really that the game makes me uncomfortable just in the sense of my character's doing something I don't approve of. It's more that, back when I was Catholic, I've heard a lot of warnings that if you do some things (like practicing magic, meditating etc.) you could get influenced by some evil force for real. So, it's not that I'm afraid of doing something wrong... but rather of doing something dangerous.



Heh. I know, it's weird, but I don't think I'm the only atheist / agnostic with this kind of problem.



Well, we cannot really know that, can we?

Plus, I actually have heard rumours about bad things happening to people who played Kult.



But, if symbol do have power, then don't they have this power regardless of the context they are being used?
This message was last edited by the player at 15:54, Fri 17 Dec 2010.

Batteries have power too, but you're not likely to suffer if you put them in stacks or anything.

Symbols are like batteries. On their own, they're inert. It's only when they're configured and 'plugged in' that they can do anything. You're not doing anything (well, except to create atmosphere). Unless you're larping and actually writing out the symbols, just seeing them in a book won't do anything. Just keep yourself grounded (in reality - but pun intended).

I haven't heard about Kult. I'm open to the idea that truly dangerous information can be stored in an RPG book, although it still requires your willingness to act on it. I've looked through Mage though and it seems fine to me. Just remember it's fantasy, is the important part. If it starts to change your actual beliefs, that's when you need to stop and take a critical review.

(I guess my point is, the book isn't as much of an issue as who you're playing with, or the setting. LARPing in a poorly lit basement where you paint out sigils is more dangerous than writing up a five line post once a day on RPoL.)

If I put a functional design fro a nuclear warhead in an RPG, it would still be dangerous (OTOH see the secret service raiding SJgames...)
as for batteries if you put enough of them end to end positive to negative you might generate enough voltage to be dangerous without an electronic device to put them in... especially if you stack them too close to an I-Beam...

If I put a functional design fro a nuclear warhead in an RPG, it would still be dangerous

A bit of a tangent here, but that's not actually accurate. Knowledge on how to construct nuclear warheads has been commonplace for a long time now. Any student of nuclear physics could come up with a workable design. The issue is materials, which are not so easy to come by.

Depends on where you live. In Western kansas apparently there are surface level uranium deposits. Now admitedly you would also need plans to develop it into weapons grade material, the point is that if the iformation is dangerous there is nothing (except the secret service) preventing it from being put into a RPG.

What about a situation when you roleplay a detailed scene in which your character writes them down? You'd be still writing down the symbols... in your imagination, that is.



Here's some info about Kult, if you're curious about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kult
http://www.kult-rpg.com/

BTW. Have you read / played Eden Studios' WitchCraft? I wonder what you'd think about it.

If you say "my character writes down the magical runes", that's okay. There's a pretty heavy layer of abstraction there. If you write down the runes and say "this is what my character writes down", debatably, you might possibly be getting into a sensitive area (in so far that you, the player, think you just wrote a spell). But again, it comes down to how well grounded YOU are. If you think 'this is a bunch of gibberish I bought for $20 at Barnes and Noble as part of the art for this book', it doesn't matter - it's gibberish. If you think 'this is legitimate magic that may change how the world operates, and now that it's written down, it's a spell', I would say you really should take a step back and play a different game.

(And no, never played Witchcraft.)
This message was last edited by the GM at 11:57, Sat 18 Dec 2010.

Hmmm... And what if I think: "It's all make-believe, but I kind of wish I had these kind of powers, as they would be quite cool"?

Yeah, ESP, would be nice.

If that's a problem then I think we're ALL in trouble.

I have a question for katisara - and any other Catholics on this board.

I was watching "Joan of Arcadia" (a TV series with religious elements) today and there was a subplot about the lead character's mother preparing herself for her Confirmation ceremony. And it got me thinking... For once, the mother in question was in her fourties - also, there seemed to be a lot of attention given to her Confirmation by her priest (the character got to have a kind of spiritual guide assigned to her at her parish, the preparation process required a lot of studying  etc.). Meanwhile, back here, people undergo Confirmation quite early, back when they are in high school - and there are no individual spiritual guides etc.. People just go to a general church meetings a few times, get a form signed by a priest saying that they attended it - and that's all...

So, here's a question: are American and Polish branches of Catholic Church so different - or is aforementioned TV series just unrealistic?

Most confirmations are like you describe - high school students attend sunday school classes every week for X weeks, they choose a confirmation name for themselves and a sponsor, and they get blessed. For me, it was pretty throw away. For my brother, it was a Big Deal. IMO, this is one of the bigger failings of the RCC - for most people and most parishes, it's just another thing to do, wasted on kids who don't really care.

The mom in Joan of Arcadia may also have been going through RCIA - Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. This is a more complex process - you do get a single sponsor, the classes are usually 3-4 hours a day, you get homework, and it's a much bigger thing. It's a serious investment of time and energy to complete (and it's adults, who actually know what they're doing and volunteered for it).

The process in JoA seems to be what you describe as RCIA - still, they call it  "confirmation"... Hm.

Anyway, in the case of my parish, the confirmation definitely wasn't all it was supposed to be. I was told that it was a very important step in a Christian's life and I was really looking forward to it. Then, the preparatory meetings started and... I couldn't help feeling disappointed. The meetings were really short and I didn't feel that they were adding anything to my faith...

RCIA goes through all the same rites as a cradle Catholic goes through, so it does finish with confirmation. But it's the last step in a very intense process.

I personally do wish I hadn't gone through confirmation when I had. I wasn't old enough to make that decision, and I wasn't in a position where I could make it free of coercion. The whole process seemed more of book knowledge than spiritual inspiration. Yeah, I also felt very let down by it. And unfortunately, I don't think the RCC is really willing to reconsider things (at least not in our lifetime). Had I pursued it on my own time, I think I would have put more personal value in it.

Thanks for your input, katisara :)

Aaaaaand here's another small issue for discussion:

I just read a curious news blurb. Apparently, the students at one Polish high school have made a short slasher flick to be played during their prom. The villain in the movie is a priest, who kills people at a church. The whole flick is meant to represent a student's nightmare before taking his final high school exams.

The thing is that the villainous priest in the movie is being played by a real priest that teaches at the school. And the story takes place at the church the priest runs... When the priest's superiors learnt about it, the priest was punished. According to the superiors, it's wrong for a priest to allow to film this kind of stuff in a church - and, also, it is wrong for a priest to take part in such a movie (as it tarnishes a priest's reputation and shocks the members of his parish).

What do you think about it, katisara?

This sounds like an administrative thing, not a theological or ecclesiastical thing. I don't think there's anything wrong with priests playing roles, leading punk rock bands and so on, as long as in the process they're leading people to be better people (and helping a student develop a film sounds like a good example). But there's also a PR cost with representing a priest as a monster, and filming in an actual church. It sounds like the priest went over the head of his boss and got reprimanded for that.

If genuine, this could prove very interesting:  metal plates containing codices documenting some of the last days of Jesus' life:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_...of-christian-history