A requested topic for Silveroak (a spin-off of the Catholicism thread).

All religions 'recruit' new people to their belief system. even ones which are non-prosthetysing or in some cases highly exclusive and secretive. So which forms of religious salesmanship work, how well, and on what kind of people? Are there any methods you (or your belief system) find immoral or counterproductive?

For example, a lot of modern sales techniques focus on getting a sale without buidling a relationship, sometimes even at the cost of the potential to develop a relationship. Presumedly this would be a bad way for a religion to go in selling their doctrine, but many people seem to feel that borrowing these techniques will be effective at 'selling' their religion...

One thing I notice in a lot of religions is a sort of built-in protection against changing your mind once you've joined.  Most religions discourage considering other religions, and consider it evil/bad/immoral/unsafe/whatever to give other religions serious consideration.  That's not quite the same as salesmanship, since you get it after you accept it, but it's perhaps something that religions must compete with when pitching their message, and seems at least somewhat related.

I dunno what kinda "sales training" you've had, but if you upset people you'll never make money.  I'd actually have to say living my life through a sales perspective has done me quite well.

That's what I've been trying to tell you in the other threads!  ;) I think your approach to "selling" your version of christianity is upsetting people, making them less likely to believe you.  And not just you, but any christian.  The same way that if a potential customer has a bad experience with someone in your company upsetting them, they'll be less likely to 1) buy your product then, and 2) listen to the next person that tries to sell it to them, even if the second person is more pleasant.  You seem to know that it can happen in sales, but can you see that it can happen when you're "selling" christianity (or one particular strain of it) as well?

Some of the things that both AN and TitL are saying seem more geared to saying "I told you so" in the afterlife, or perhaps "don't look at me, I warned'em!"  That kind of thinking comes off as being more about you ("hey, I tried, don't blame me if they didn't believe me!") and less about the person you're trying to 'save.'  If you're goal is really to change their mind, doing anything that makes them less likely to believe your message is bad, even if that includes telling them your message bluntly!

I think TitL was much more in the right way of thinking when he said his "preach all the time, and sometimes use words," or however he said it.  Being a good example, and acting in a way that attracts people is much more effective than shouting at them to change their ways.  The way you tell people sometimes has more influence than what you tell them.  If your delivery makes people think "hmm, christians seem sort of angry, in-your-face types that don't listen to what anyone else thinks," then it doesn't matter if your message is true or not.  You don't get points in the afterlife for driving people away with good intentions (or so you told me earlier when I asked if it was your intentions or your actions that God judged).


This quote really surprised me.  There's a real disconnect between what you think of yourself, and what you're presenting for others.  You might not think you're the type to force your ideas on others, but that's what it seems like you're trying to do.  You might feel you're not the "salvation is only my way" type, but to me you look like the most "my way or the hell way" person on these boards.  Certainly far more than the catholics and moromons that you're accusing of being that way.  I'm not saying that to be mean, I'm just trying to get you to realize that you're not presenting a good example of the message you mean to present.  Your intended message seems to be getting lost in your delivery.  You say you're not hear to convert, but you look like you're pushing harder for conversion than anyone else.

You can say "if you don't like my approach, then sorry!" and feel I just have to deal with it, but what I'm trying to tell you is that if no one likes your approach, then it's doing the exact opposite of what you want it to do: it's driving people away from your views, nor drawing them towards it.  I'm not telling you this because I want you to change, I'm telling you because I think you'll have more luck doing what you want to do if you change.  I'm trying to help you.  Not particularly effectively, unfortunately, but I'm not sure how else to do it.

To be clear, I'm not asking you not to share your views, or not to try to change people's minds.  I'm trying to help you find a more effective way of doing it.  I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I can see how people are reacting, and I can see that people who might normally be inclined to agree with you are being pushed away because of your approach.

I know of a number of religions (most forms of paganism, Buddhism...) which as  a matter of practice if not doctrine *encourage* the examination of other belief systems.

Also AN, check out the phrase 'cognative dissonance', it describes the sales technique you yourself were refering to which is common in hard sell businesses which emphasise the short term sale over a relationship, and the issue is upseting people the right ammount.

So the other night the Beltane fire society here in Edinburgh put on their yearly Samhain celebration, which consist of dressing up in body paint, a parade down the royal mile, and then a bunch of skits depicting a personification of winter taking power from a personification of summer.  It's meant to be similar to old pagan rituals from this time of year, but I'm not sure how much liberties the people putting it on take with the old rituals to make it more fun for them (and involve as much fire as they can).  Overall, it's pretty entertaining, especially considering it's all done by ametuers, and funded by donation.

Anyway, each year there's always christian groups there, trying in various ways to save people from the "evils of paganism."  Sometimes they just have a coffee stand, and then give out pamphlets about Jesus, sometimes they carry placards, etc.  Overall, they tend not to be too confrontational, but it does seem somewhat disrespectful.  But to each their own, it's a free country, and all that.

This year I was handed a folded up piece of paper, and when I opened it up it had a big title of "ONE GOD: the only God." on it, and some bible verses.  Not too surprised, I folded it up, put it my pocket, and didn't really look at it until this morning.  The first thing that struck me was that they didn't do a great job of picking their verse if they were trying to promote mono-theism, because they picked verses from Genesis in which God speaks of Himself in the plural.  Launching straight into the concept of the trinity when trying to advance a monotheistic premise doesn't seem like a good strategy to me, but who knows.

The next verse was the one that really surprised me.  I'll type it out here exactly as it was on the page:


This really surprised me because I didn't remember any mention of Jesus in Exodus.  So I looked it up, and that "Jesus is the Son [God the Son]" isn't there.  I checked 5 different versions of the bible to make sure, and none of them had this last part about Jesus in them.

So, as far as I can tell, these people (new methodist christian fellowship) just decided to claim the bible said something it didn't, in order to win converts.  So, two questions come to mind:
1.  Am I missing something here?  Is there another explanation beyond them just making stuff up?
2.  Is it ever right to lie about what's in the bible?  Say they manage to convert a person to christianity, so (in their beliefs) save that person's soul from eternal torment, etc.  Does that justify lying?  Is it okay to lie to people in order to change their beliefs about Jesus?  Do the ends justify the means in this case?

I tend to think not, on question 2, but I'm not a christian, so don't hold the idea that belief in Jesus is the only thing that really matters at the end of the day.  And, to be honest, that kind of "do whatever it takes to convince them!" thinking seems very distasteful to me.  I mean showing up at someone else's show to win converts seems a bit disrespectful, but lying while doing it seems downright dishonest.  What do the rest of you think?

Certainly it would be interesting to approach them directly and ask them why that is there if it's not in the bible.

Since you're now away from that encounter, I'd suggest heading to their Sunday service, and asking them about it there.

Don't know any reason for that addition, but they maybe they had a typo, or a printing error. Basically, the printer person messed up, and rather than just throw them away, gave them for a big discount or something.

Is it right to lie? Well always depends on the circumstances. It's all in reasons for why you're lying. Is it to protect someone, or is to serve yourself?

In this case it looks to me like they were lying in order to win converts.  Does that count as "protecting" them?  Is it serving yourself?

I'm less inclined to think it's a printing error, to be honest.  And that makes me even less motivated to go to their sunday service than I would otherwise be.  But in this case, they didn't put info on their sunday service on the pamphlet.  There was a weblink for a streaming video of a preacher, but the sound was poor so I couldn't really understand it and lost patience trying very quickly.  There's an email address too (from fiji, oddly), so I suppose I could ask them, but to be honest, I'm not too keen on them having my email address.  I can give it to you if you'd like to ask them.

It looks to me like they have three seperate verses and failed to seperate and attribute the second two.

As to the historical accuracy of teh events probably not so much. Ancient rituals were not written down and generally the strength passes from summer (Oak king) to winter (Holly King) at either midsummer (when summer is at it's peak and winter is starting to rise) or Lughnasa (Autumn equinox) when the two are of equal strength heading towards winter. The historical-traditional Samhain celebration would consist of driving cattle between bonfires and culling the herd for the comming winter and remembering those who had gone on before (died). Most modern celebrations focus on teh latter. Or of course partying which can be a aprt of any pagan celebration. Unless they have researched another tradition unfamiliar to the majority of pagans arround it seems more like they are trying to show more typical and really more signifigant pagan hollidays while the Halloween Hoopla has given them a stage rather than be seasonally appropriate.

   I think converting people to be done right is not the province of the street corner but the home and the workplace. Talk to them, show them that you live by the right and just principles set down by your faith, speak softly and carry no stick at all. When they see that you are simply a better person than them one of two things will happen, if they are ready for salvation they will seek you out and ask for your help, if not they will hate you. You must be ready to accept that some will hate you, or else you are not ready to convert anyone.

Beliefs for sale.  One can buy any religion they choose to believe in.  Take a walk into any religious or occult book store and you will find that latest religious/spiritual craze to hit the market.

Wicca, Scientology, Paganism, New Age, Universalism, Shamanism, Feminist Christianity, Sufism, etc.  You name it and someone has "unlocked" the truth behind the religion.  You can enroll in one of their classes, buy their books, take an online course, and maybe someday you can open a studio franchise for teaching others the way!

I actually prefer AmericanNightmare's style:



He's not asking for money or saying that his way is some big secret.  Take his faith or don't.  No BS.  But, as noted, that is not the way to SELL his faith and clearly that is not his intent.

Never take spiritual guidance from someone who asks a cover charge.

Cover charge? Never. However donations to help pay for the meeting space...
realistically any kind of even moderate effort to propogate and maintain a religion will have some financial costs associated with it.

In reply to silveroak (msg #13):

Indeed.

I am talking about the ones who sell a book which directs you to a website which sells implements to assist in enlightenment which you can use at the conference center they rent when they come to a town near you.

Personally I have seen a few friends spend buttloads of money on such things.  One rented a camper and drove out to a ranch in Montana to take part in a spiritual awakening.  Just to get a spot on the ranch cost her $1500.  She then purchased around $800 in CDs and books.

It is also harkens back to the Sunday morning speaking-in-tonguers who ask for money after they heal you by putting your hands on the screen.

But I have no problem with donations freely given.

Even selling religious products is freely given- you aren't generally required to buy. And it is a very ancient tradition- Archemedies invented the first vending machine for the sale of blessed water.

In reply to silveroak (msg #15):

I agree that fleecing the masses is an ancient tradition.