An old favorite!  Requested topic for Kathulos.

Real faith leads to works

Works does not lead to salvation, no matter how hard one works.

Ergo, faith leads to salvation and works
Works does not lead to faith and salvation

Faith = salvation + works

I guess the above would only apply to Christ centered relationship. I suspect there are religious groups who would not agree with that.

I think as people, it's a natural idea to want to believe that you are rewarded or punished based on one's actions. As such, I would say it goes against most people's ideas what the bible says about being rewarded with something you do not deserve.

Also, if someone brings up faith being meaningless without works, please read the context in which the passage in the Bible is referring to. When referenced in context, it's not necessarily talking Salvation.

If works does not lead to salvation, how was Jesus saved?  He didn't need faith since he had a perfect knowledge; therefore, all you have is his works, which were perfect.

The problem is not the works vs. faith argument.  The problem is that there is an unnecessary dichotomy interposed.  If you have faith only, and then go murder people, your faith is pretty meaningless.  If you have faith and do your best to do good in the world, your faith is rewarded.  If you have no faith and go murder people, your lack of faith is meaningless too.  If you have no faith but do your best to do good in the world, then that is the only point where the question really arises.

Faith itself is not a state of being but an action.  You "exercise faith."  How do you exercise faith?  By doing good works with an eye single to the glory of God.  If you are not donig good works with an eye single to the glory of God, you do not truly have "faith" because you are not execising it.

To be more clear, the grace of God/Jesus comes only through "faith" after all you can do ("works").  It is the grace of God which perfects a person and forgives sin since no one is perfect no matter how hard they try.

This is not the same as "salvation" per se.  Salvation is based on baptism, or being "born again" of the water and spirit.  But works is primarily important for those who have already been "saved" by baptism because they can lose their salvation through sin.

"For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:23)."

So this tells us that when we sin after being saved/baptized, we can still suffer spiritual death and must partake again of Christ through continued repentance and calling upon him through faith.

Jesus is/was God, he didn't need to be Saved.

I don't think Jesus sinned. He took our punishment for our sins however.

I think there's two different things going on here. We talk about faith vs works, but then the discussion changes to what faith leads to.

When it comes to salvation, faith is the difference. Works are only a result of faith.


Further explain ed through scripture


Faith leads to works. Faith leads to salvation, which is not of works, so that no one can boast.

I was doing a bit more reading on LDS faith, and I do note in several sources of LDS literature, they do make repeated reference to requiring faith and works for salvation.










That last quote seems to address your ideas about sinning and losing salvation from post #6 better than what it says in Romans 6:23.

So I think I do understand why you as a LDs believe the way you do about works and faith and salvation. But when it comes to salvation and what it says in the bible, I think someone who is christian and doesn't use those other books, the implication of faith versus works is much different.

Here's a different perspective.

Faith is meaningless.  Only works matters.

Salvation is likewise meaningless, because salvation refers to things achieved in the next life.  Only things done in this life means anything, which means works.

If you have an extremely pious man, who never does anything to help his fellow man, you have no difference than a worthless layabout.  If you have a a man with no faith, but the most saintly of works, then you have someone truly doing god's work... even without faith.

I think that's a more natural thought of the world. Only what can be physically measured by man is something that people can keep track of.

I think people want to be able to earn their way.

To riff off of GMC, there were times when Mother Teresa seriously questioned the existence of God. Had she died suddenly at that moment, not having true faith and belief in God, what would have happened? She was still working every day to do what she was told is God's will, and she was working towards faith, but at that precise moment, she had none.

In reply to katisara (msg #12):

If She ever believed in Jesus as the way to get to Heaven because he atoned for her sins for her, then she would have went to Heaven at the moment of unbelief.

But how is she different from someone who believed in God as a child, but as an adult became agnostic and simply put no effort into the relationship whatsoever (i.e., neither faith nor works?)

In reply to katisara (msg #14):

That person, however would have very little rewards in Heaven, although he'd still be fortunate enough to get there.

M.T, if she died at the moment of unbelief, would have had decades of devoted service behind her + good works to  go along with that service, and thus earn immense rewards in Heaven for them.

Where are you getting this gradient of rewards in heaven? (And what sort of rewards are you imagining?) I understand the LDS belief in 'levels' of heaven which are closer or further from God, but I'm not familiar with any non-LDS beliefs on the topic.