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16:53, 28th April 2024 (GMT+0)

The Great Deluge.

Posted by HeathFor group 0
Heath
GM, 4928 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Occupation: Attorney
Mon 7 May 2012
at 19:17
  • msg #1

The Great Deluge

Anyone want to revisit the Great Flood issues?  It's been about 4 years, so I'm starting a new thread on it.

Here are some websites to get discussion started:

Here's a guy trying to explain it as literal using some apparently prominent ideas trying to explain it scientifically:
http://www.rae.org/bits22.htm

Here's an explanation that is not literal:
http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/

These should show two sides to the story.

The trump card of true believers can always be that God is all powerful and can do whatever he wants, but then the question becomes why would there be deception involved.  This and the Tower of Babel discussion are a couple of my favorites.
habsin4
player, 43 posts
Mon 7 May 2012
at 20:11
  • msg #2

Re: The Great Deluge

I took a Mythology class many a year ago, that focused mostly on Joseph Campbell's Jungian interpretation of myths.  In case anyone doesn't know, Jung and Campbell believed myths were personifications of our subconscious, although Campbell believed in a deep spiritual message in myths as well, and was, I believe, a devout Catholic.  I'm not sure I buy it all, but Joseph Campbell makes for a very good read.  The Hero With a Thousand Faces and The Power of Myth were both excellent reads.

Anyway, this is what Campbell had to say about the Flood:

Joseph Campbell:
CAMPBELL: Yes. There are very few cultures that don’t have a Flood motif. That’s a basic idea: the dissolution of the world which takes place every night when we go into the flood of our own unconscious. It’s the analogue of the mythological Flood: at the end of the cycle, there’s a flood. The American Indians have lots of Flood stories.

It was thought when the diggings in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley were proceeding that evidence of the Biblical flood could be located – at least a flood universal to that area. And there were flood levels found in several cities. But they were not the same flood level; they were local floods. There’s no cosmic flood; the Flood motif is a mythological idea. The whole notion that all originates from water, and all is going back to water, gives you a cycle: out of water, back to water, out of water, back to water; and each new cosmic aeon, each new world-age, is, as it were, a creation out of water and a dissolution into water. So it’s a mythological motif. This is exactly the point that Thomas Mann makes very well in the first part of Joseph and His Brothers: the archetypal Flood is a mythological, a psychological flood, and when local floods occur they become identified with it. Do you understand? We have experienced The Flood. The Flood is a mythological principle, and when a flood occurred, we understood the sense of the image.


Jung, on the other hand, believed the flood was symbolic of a womb (if memory serves).  That one seems a little more far-fetched to me.  Personally, I doubt the veracity of a historical world flood, because I assume there would be some sort of archeological evidence left behind.  But given that localized cultures in the pre-global world would have experienced devastating floods across much of their land, I can imagine how it must have seemed like a world flood when it first happened.
Heath
GM, 4930 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Occupation: Attorney
Mon 7 May 2012
at 23:20
  • msg #3

Re: The Great Deluge

The symbolism ideas are interesting; the same symbolisms apply to baptism.

I think the Great Flood is a little different, though, in that it was believed to be literal by the early subscribers (as far as I know), or applied some real event to describe a mythological concept (destruction of the world, etc.)
katisara
GM, 5236 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 8 May 2012
at 14:03
  • msg #4

Re: The Great Deluge

I was reading the other day that the flood myth has been found on Bablyonian tablets, predating the actual tribe of the Jews. The main character was a faithful (to Babylonian deities) Bablyonian king, if memory serves.

It's also interesting to note that one of the best respected gods in Sumerian/Babylonian mythology was Enki, "Lord of Sweet Waters", oftentimes represented as a fish. While Jesus was represented as a fish, I'm not familiar with any strong water motifs associated with Yahweh.
Heath
GM, 4938 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Occupation: Attorney
Tue 8 May 2012
at 17:45
  • msg #5

Re: The Great Deluge

I'd have to research it again, but didn't the Gilgamesh legend also predate Noah?
katisara
GM, 5239 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 8 May 2012
at 23:04
  • msg #6

Re: The Great Deluge

By a long shot, although I don't recall a flood myth specific to him.
habsin4
player, 50 posts
Tue 8 May 2012
at 23:32
  • msg #7

Re: The Great Deluge

In reply to Heath (msg #5):

I don't know when Noah is supposed to have happened, but Gilgamesh is meant to take place ~2500BC.  I'm also unfamiliar with a great flood in the epic, but its been a long time.
hakootoko
player, 1 post
Mon 4 Jun 2012
at 20:17
  • msg #8

Re: The Great Deluge


Bishop Ussher's date for the flood: 2349 BC.

The flood in Gilgamesh:
http://www.ancienttexts.org/li.../gilgamesh/tab11.htm
My copy of Gilgamesh (Andrew George 1999, Penguin books) lists Gilgamesh as living in 2800 BC, and the flood was long before Gilgamesh's time.So the flood in Gilgamesh is said to occur well before the flood in Genesis. Though this was the question asked above, I'm not sure if it was the intended question.

Of more value would be to say "how far back can we date the flood stories?" The flood in Genesis should be known to the Israelites in Egypt (before the Exodus, usually dated between 1250 BC and 1500 BC). The Gilgamesh flood is first found in the "standard Akkadian version of Gilgamesh", compiled around 1200 BC.

So it's a toss up as to which is older.
Heath
GM, 4954 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Occupation: Attorney
Tue 24 Jul 2012
at 17:58
  • msg #9

Re: The Great Deluge

Thanks, hakootoko.  That's pretty close to what I remember too.
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