I'm not sure if people who just have a drop of Israelite/Judean blood are necessarily counted as a "Jew" or "Israelite" in God's perspective. Jews, however, are obviously right from the Covenant of Abraham.

I disagree.  Anyone who has a drop of blood from Abraham's descent is literally a descendant of Abraham.  That's how inheritancy works.  You don't have to have inbreeding back and forth along generations for it to count, despite what the royal line of England may have said for generations.  ;)

Hmm. You know, though, has the lineage of the Jews even spread among billions of people in the first place? If so, what's the proof?

Again, it's not the "Jews," which is limited to Judeah.  It is "Abraham" we are speaking of.

So what's the proof that even a drop of Abraham's blood wouldn't count as being of the seed of Abraham?

Also, you fail to account for the fact that the world has not yet ended.  You cannot count whether it is millions or billions until the counting has stopped.

There was very little racial intermixing before the 16th century. Yes, Abraham's descendants spread out, with groups in places like Ethiopia and South Asia, but even there they didn't interbreed much with the locals, so those of Abrahamic blood were a minority. It must be even more rare in East Asia and sub-Saharan Africa, and of course America and Australia.

(Edited to conform to Heath's semantics)
This message was last edited by the player at 23:31, Tue 18 Feb 2014.

In reply to hakootoko (msg # 46):

That's sort of what I thought. It's my understanding that Twelve missing Tribes of Israel are somewhat of a myth.

(EDIT: This replies to Hakootoko)
Okay, but again, you are talking about the "Jews," not the descendants of Abraham.  To put it differently, there are 12 "Tribes" of Israel (Abraham), and 2 Tribes of them are considered the "Jews."  The other 10 tribes were scattered and lost in the world.  So about 1000 years before Christ, 10 of the tribes of Abraham were scattered and lost.  They went throughout the world.  No one knows where.  However, the Bible states:

"For lo, I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth." Amos 9:9

Another quote: "And I will scatter thee among the heathen, and disperse thee in the countries, and will consume thy filthiness out of thee." Eze 22:15

"And I will sow them among the people: and they shall remember me in far countries; and they shall live with their children and turn again." Zech 10:9

This is talking about Abraham's children, not the Jews per se.  These could be the lost 10 tribes.  So what you are talking about with them not going anywhere until the 16th century is only the 2 tribes that were not lost.  It does not account for the 10 tribes (i.e., over 90% of Abraham's seed) that were scattered around the world.
This message was last edited by the GM at 23:38, Tue 18 Feb 2014.

Yeah, if the 10 tribes of Israel were actually lost. Some people don't seem to agree on that.

So the two points of contention are: (1) whether the 10 Tribes were "scattered," and (2) whether Abraham's seed will be so exponentially large at the time of the end of the world, whenever that is.

First Point
I had never even realized there was any argument as to the first.  Historically, this is what we know actually happened:

After the death of King Solomon, around 930 BC, the descendents of Jacob splintered into two kingdoms, the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom.  (Footnote: This assumes they were still all together, but for all we know, they may have still spread throughout some parts of the world by this time by following the admonition given to Noah.)  The Northern Kingdom was called the Kingdom of Israel, and it was made up of the 10 Tribes.  The Southern Kingdom was called the Kingdom of Judah, and it was made up of the 2 Tribes of Judah and Benjamin (and some from Levi).

Both kingdoms eventually fell to foreign powers and exile, but for the Northern Kingdom, this occurred in 722 BC, when the 10 tribes were carried away into Assyria and became scattered.  Historians do not know what happened to them.  They are called the Lost 10 Tribes.

Second Point
We don't know when the world will end, but it clearly has become a global world, with the descendants of Abraham living all over the world.  There are clearly, without doubt, millions upon millions of them currently, and that's just those who are "Jews" (from the Southern Kingdom of Judah), not even all those who have Abraham's blood.  So clearly, those who are descended from Abraham are very numerous and will continue to increase in number as time and the population of the world increases.

We should also be cognizant of the parabolic curve of human population growth, which only increases the potential number of people each year who have some of Abraham's blood in them.

Thinking it over for a day, I find you have a good point, Heath. Eventually everyone in the world will have at least a drop of Abraham's blood in them. Some of the lost tribes could have traveled to China, or Europe, or South Africa. In some parts of the world it will take more time, but there has been considerable mixing in the last five hundred years. And since you're not saying it's necessarily true today but will be true eventually, that's even harder to dispute.

Exactly.  Just like it wasn't true necessarily one generation after Abraham died, we're also not saying the day the prophecy comes true is today.  I think it's just by the end of the world.

(At least according to LDS tradition, that's still at least 1000 years away, and then some.)

It's a bad idea to think it's 1000 years away ("you will know neither the day nor the hour" and all that). We should always live as if the end is coming tomorrow, so we are always ready. Yeah, I fail in that, but it's something I try to keep in mind.

Well then, read Isaiah 66. If Isaiah 66 is true, then why doesn't it prove the Jews are God's people and Israel belongs to them?

Well, the End of the World is something very different from the end of a person's life or the Second Coming of Christ, all of which could come at any moment.  The last "1000" years comes after the "cleansing" of evil, which will be what most people probably consider the end of the earth according to Revelations or whatever.  That's why I say that.  It's because there will be a massive destruction, and then 1000 years of peace with Christ reigning over the earth before it finally completes its mission.

So, yes, the massive destruction and death and all that glamorous stuff could happen at any time, but since the world is not at peace with Christ reigning yet, I know it's still got at least 1000 years left in it.  :)

In reply to Kathulos (msg # 54):

Can you be more specific?  You are pointing me to an entire chapter of Isaiah.  Isaiah was a prophet who wrote in enigmatic ways where there can be multiple interpretations, so you will need to be more specific with what you are saying.

Well the entire chapter needs to be read in order to be taken in context.

It basically says that God is responsible for rebirthing Israel in one single day, and infers that when that happens, you know the Lord did it.

Okay.  I guess I don't understand the point.  Israel belongs to God.  Israel is God's people based on the Abrahamic Covenant.  I buy that and believe it's true and supported.  (Israel was the name of Abraham after the Covenant, so it applies to all his children, not just those from the lines of Benjamin and Judah.)

But I guess I don't get where you are going from there...

Maybe you could restate your point.

In reply to Heath (msg # 58):









The Jewish people brought forth Jesus. The Jewish people specifically, not any other tribe in Israel.



Okay, May 14th, 1948, Israel was remade in one day.



God did this, in 1948. Israel is going to finish his work in Israel, there is more work to be done.



Be glad with her sounds like a commandment to me.



There is a blessing for those who love Israel.



More flowery metaphor here. Blessings to those who love Israel.



Once more either/or both blessings to Israel or to us for loving ISrael.



Don't hate the Jews. Just don't.



Yeah. . . The Jews once burned in ovens. God must remember that by the time he comes back.



Here the world is attacking Israel.



Gentiles, obviously.



God gathers the nations against Israel to punish them.



But God's merciful, he lets some go to warn the others.







Israel/Jews.





Those who came against Israel will not meet a pleasant end.

Interesting interpretations.  I'm still uncertain of the point you are trying to make, however.  Is there a theory you are espousing?

___

As to the specifics, your interpretation is an interpretation, but not necessarily the only interpretation.  For example, verses 15 and 16 are typically interpreted to mean that the Lord will destroy the wicked by fire (not the Jews) in the Last Days, consistent also with Revelations.

Regardless of which is right, there are multiple possible interpretations, not just one.

My whole point is that the wicked are those who come against the Jews. In the end, God will save them all.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:01, Thu 20 Feb 2014.

God will save all the Jews?  Even the wicked ones?

My understanding is that a Jew separates himself from the House of Israel through wickedness.  But otherwise, I think I agree with you, if I understand correctly.

I'm also not sure if you are saying the only people who are "wicked" are those who come against the Jews.  I wouldn't agree with that.  But rallying against God's people would be essentially the same as rallying against God, except to the extent it is done in innocence/ignorance.  Then it could be blameless.

It's more like, God putting a fish hook in the jaw of a bunch of piranhas to come against a pearl or a little gold fish, and then taking a machine gun and getting rid of the piranhas once they get near the gold fish.

In this case, when the people come against the Jewish people, the only Jews left alive will be those who will accept Jesus when he returns. The rest of the world shakes their fist at God and seek to fight him when he comes back, instead of repenting.

LDS theology is someone similar (though maybe not as graphic as you put it).  In it, Jesus will show the Jews the places where the nails were in his feet and hands and otherwise demonstrate he is the Christ, so they will have a chance to join the fold at the Second Coming because they still are His people.

Right. The part about nail marks in the body is in my belief as well.
Although, I'm not sure if there will be any non-Jewish believers in Jesus when he comes back. Which brings me to the Pre-Tribulation Rapture belief. Have you heard of it?

No.  I think LDS belief about "rapture" is a little different, in that no one will actually go anywhere.  They will remain on earth but in another state of being.  We call it "translation" or "transfiguration" instead of "rapture."