Hmmm, tell that to the folks who sold all of their belongings for the last 20 times someone told them that Jesus was coming soon.

But just so I can hedge my bets, you wouldn't happen to have the exact date handy would you?  Or even a ballpark? ;)

No. That's the point. The Bible clearly states your not supposed to ever set a date.

We will never know the time, so don't guess the time, and be ready all the time.

However, you said it was clear with the signs of Jesus' return.  What is clear then?  That he WILL return?  Has that not been clear now for 2000 years?

Ah. It's clear he will return within our life time.

Within who's lifetime?  Yours or mine?  Or the guy who wrote the latest prophecy book?  Or Jews born in 1948?  or Jews born in 1967?

People born in 1967.

Interesting viewpoint.

Since you hold that view I guess things are looking up for you.  Even if by some miracle the final 1967er lives to 120 years old, that's only 2087 - so only 75 more years.

The Jew is God's chosen people.

That adds nothing to and takes nothing away from Salvation.

I just wanted to clarify that based on what Doulos has said earlier in the thread.

In reply to Kathulos (msg # 20):

How exactly is that clear?

Ad isn't that putting a rough date on it?

Well, for one thing, there is no indication that Jewish people are automatically saved by being born. There never was even in the Old Testament, where the Jews were even more easily called God's people. Furthermore, the Jewish people being Messianic in nature, (Once saved) are obviously more Jewish then they once were before being saved, because Jesus is not only Jewish but in fact the first Jew. God is Jewish, and being God, Jesus is Jewish.

In reply to Kathulos (msg # 26):

I don't feel like trees much of an answer in there.



Huh? I'm not quite sure what you mean here. What makes some Jews more Jewish than others? Do you mean that orthodox Jews are more Jewish than reformed Jews? Jesus wasn't the first Jew. Judaism had existed for thousands of years before Christ. And God, in my opinion, is not Jewish. He is not Jewish, He is not Muslim, He is not Christian. God is God. He does not worship any God, as He is God himself. God is no more a Jew as Christ is a Christian.

I'm not sure what technically makes one a Jew, but...

If the NT is true, then Jesus is the Christ the Messiah, and both God & Jesus believing this would make them Christians. On the other hand, if God believes that Mohammed is his final prophet, then God is a muslim.

Hakootoko is correct.

Messianic Jews believe in Jesus as the answer to the Messiah's coming. :|

Agreed.



The plan of salvation could be seen as being carried out through the Jewish people, culminating in Jesus.  That doesn't make them more or less gods people, only that they were chosen to be the tool through which god would bring about salvation.



This section is beyond me and needs more explanation.  The Jewish people are only unique in that they are initially the vehicle through which god carried out his plan of salvation (mostly just by breeding), but beyond that they are exactly like any of the rest of us.

In short God picks the jewish people (for reasons unknown to anyone) to be a demonstration of what god is capable of, and to eventually birth Jesus (a jew) who will finalize the plan of salvation for the entire planet's population.  I don't see any reason to read into the jewish population any role greater than that.

How many peoples could survive the world's hate like that? They aren't wealthy/educated and succesful because they are a race of supervillains, like some claim.

I agree that the Jewish people have suffered greatly.  I'm not sure how that is relevant to what we have been discussing though.

I"m saying God has preserved them throughout the centuries.

Even if true, that again does not mean anything other than they still exist.  That doesn't prove that they exist for any specific reason.

Also, many others have survived as well.  It could easily be argued that they have survived despite God's horrific treatment of the Jewish people.  There are reasons why many Jews claim that God was killed in the fires of Auschwitz.

I know that there are Messianic Jews. However, Christians believe that as well, and there is certainly a difference there. Not all Jews are messianic.

One is not made a Jew. One is born Jewish. Theoretically conversion is possible, but it's very rare. You are a Jew if your mother was a Jew. So, even though my father's Jewish and I was raised celebrating the High Holy Days and Passover and such, I am not a Jew, because my mother is not a Jew.

Judaism was the first major monotheism. The Jews worshipped God. That is why they are the chosen people.

Yes I know this. I'm just saying that The Church has not replaced Jews as the chosen people. But in fact, God still has a future plan for them, even if they aren't pre-eminent as the major focus in his sight for now.

Some people are saying that having the Jewish people as still important in God's eyes as an ethnicity/people is adding to the Salvation doctrine or something like that, which isn't the case.

The Jewish people are a part of the future plan insofar as they are human beings.  Their piece in the puzzle has been carried out and now they get to enjoy in the benefits as human beings.  Nothing more than that in my view (though I realise you see differently)

Actually, Revelation does specify that exactly 144,000 Jews will be saved, 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes.

Only if you read it that way, which I do not.  The structure and language of that particular piece of revelation seem to indicate speaking of all of the redeemed, not specifically jewish, though a first glance reading would perhaps suggest otherwise.

Revelation is a very poor book to try and create concrete ideas out of since it is filled with SO much symbolism etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp-lOC2qSYg

Malachi 3:6 yo.
King James/New King James in particular.

There's always been a remnant of Jewish Believers.

Also, in Revelation God practically shows his people a giant Neon sign above the gates of the new Jerusalem which proves the Church hasn't replaced Israel. Also, Isaiah 66 isn't exactly easy to ignore.

I'm a little confused by this topic.  (Granted, I did not watch the videos.)

Here is why I am confused.  The "Jews" come specifically from the Tribe of Judah, which was one of Abraham's sons.  Abraham had 12 sons.  At some point in time the tribes were scattered throughout the earth, except those from the tribe of Judah, though even the Jews have had some scattering.

So given the thousands of years that have passed and the sheer mathematical computations going into the promulgation of the species, it is not hard to imagine that billions of people have Abraham's blood in them in one form or another in one way or another, even if not pureblood from the lineage of Judah.

This line of thinking also supports the scriptural prophecy that the seed of Abraham will be gathered in the New Jerusalem.

(As an aside, LDS beliefs are that people are adopted into a tribe if they are not naturally of a tribe after they join Christ's church, and thus become a part of the gathering of the 12 tribes of Israel, which will occur in the Last Days.)