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Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Posted by rogue4jcFor group 0
Bart
player, 146 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 31 Aug 2007
at 21:19
  • msg #97

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Heath:
Bart, are you suggesting in v.68 that it explicitly states that Jesus was married?

I'm stating that in v68, at least the fragment that we have now, it explicitly states that one of the five sacraments is the bridal chamber and that Christ possibly (probably?) did something with all five sacraments.

That earlier quote of Bart D. Ehrman (again, a different Bart than me) was from the book "Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament".
Bart D. Ehrman on The Gospel of Philip in "Truth and Fiction in the Da Vinci Code":
There are two passages of the Gospel of Philip that figure prominently in The Da Vinci Code. One I have already mentioned:
quote:
There were three who always walked with the lord: Mary his mother and her sister and the Magdalene, the one who was called his companion. His sister and his mother and his companion were each a Mary.

Leigh Teabing claims that the Aramaic word for "companion" really meant "spouse", and uses this to show that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married. But as we have seen, the text is written not in Aramaic but in Coptic, and the word for "companion" (it's a Greek loanword, [greek word]) in fact means not "spouse" but "companion", "friend", or "associate".
   The other passage is even more intriguing, but there is a problem with it that I should mention before quoting it. The manuscript that contains the Gospel of Philip is worn in places, having a number of holes where the words are, therefore, missing. This has affected one passage in particular:
quote:
The companion of the [gap in the manuscript] Mary Magdalene [gap] more than [gap] the disciples [gap] kiss her [gap] on her [gap].

Obviously Christ is kissing Mary somewhere -- but where is impossible to say.  The text continues on in a vein similar to what can be found in the Gospel of Mary, involving a dispute among the male disciples about why Jesus loves Mary more than them:
quote:
They said to him, "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The savior answered and said to them, "Why do I not love you like her?"

I have a few books by Bart D. Ehrman and I reccomend them all to you.  As he says
quote:
Is there any historical truth in any of these assertions about Jesus and Mary, or are they simply part of the literary fiction of The Da Vinci Code? The only way to get to the bottom of the problem is to ask a more basic question: how do we know anything about the historical Jesus?
   As we saw in the last chapter, our only recourse for knowing something about Jesus, or about anyone else in the past, is to consider our sources of information. Our principle sources for Jesus, as we have seen, are the Gospels of the New Testament, and possibly a few noncanonical Gospel accounts that may also provide useful information about his life. But these sources cannot be used uncritically, for, as we have seen, even our earliest sources (for example, Mark and the hypothetical document Q) were written decades after the events they describe and were based on oral traditions that had been in circulation year after year among people who modified the stories they told and retold about Jesus'life. This means that all our sources need to be taken with a grain of salt. We need to approach them cautiously, carefully, and methodically if we are to extract historically reliable information about them, for what we are after is not the changed account of Jesus' life but the original information: what Jesus really said, did, and experienced in his life.
   How can we learn such information, so as to evaluate the claims made by the likes of Leigh Teabing or Robert Langdon (or Dan Brown, or anyone else who says anything about the historical Jesus)? There are in fact scholars who have devoted their entire lives to dealing with this problem of how to know what really happened in the life of Jesus. These are highly trained scholars of the ancient world who read all the sources in their original languages (Greek, Aramaic, Latin, etc.), are familiar with every trace of a mention of Jesus in our ancient accounts, and have devised methods for sifting through all the material in order to determine what is historically reliable and what is not. The vast bulk of the scholarship produced by these experts is far from scintillating -- it is hard-hitting, rigorous, detailed, highly nuanced stuff, of use to, and intrest to, mostly other scholars in the field. But the conclusions that scholars have reached can in fact be fascinating to a nonexpert audience. What I will try to do here is to put the methods scholars have devised for reconstructing the life of Jesus in simple and accessible terms, with the understanding that there has been a serious amount of blood, sweat, and sheer hard work lying behind this rather simple presentation.

Heath
GM, 3639 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Fri 31 Aug 2007
at 22:54
  • msg #98

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

quote:
Leigh Teabing claims that the Aramaic word for "companion" really meant "spouse", and uses this to show that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married. But as we have seen, the text is written not in Aramaic but in Coptic, and the word for "companion" (it's a Greek loanword, [greek word]) in fact means not "spouse" but "companion", "friend", or "associate".

This is the part that concerns me.  They are saying it is borrowed from Greek, yet it is clear that the Aramaic equivalent was for spouse.  At the same time, the writers were writing in Coptic but understood ARamaic.  So, for example, if I use a Spanish word to mean "wife" when it really doesn't have the same connotation as English, people 2000 years from now could easily said that's not what I meant.

I believe also that this claim of Bart (the other Bart) is a disputed fact among scholars and not established for sure.

He also references the hypothetical Document Q, something I've also researched.  This document is highly controversial since it does not, in fact, exist at the present.  (I tend to believe there is a Document Q, but I think that's belief, not fact.)

Further, the Document Q Gospels (Synoptic GOspels of Matthew, Mark and Luke) are the least reliable gospels, whereas the Gospel of John is purported to have been written by a witness to the events (John) and is therefore the most reliable.

And it just so happens that the evidence in the Gospels pointing to Jesus' marriage is in John.
Tycho
player, 733 posts
Fri 31 Aug 2007
at 23:25
  • msg #99

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Heath:
Further, the Document Q Gospels (Synoptic GOspels of Matthew, Mark and Luke) are the least reliable gospels, whereas the Gospel of John is purported to have been written by a witness to the events (John) and is therefore the most reliable.

For the record, it's not entirely certain who wrote the book of John, or that it's the most reliable.  I think (though I'm not positive) it is agreed that John was the last of the four gospels to be actually written down, which would mean even if the author were an eye witness, the potential for memories to change over time is still large, so an eye-witness author might still not guarantee the most accuracy.

Here's just a few links with varying opinions:
http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/John.htm
http://www.geocities.com/atheistdivine/john.html
http://www.holyspiritinteracti...uth/biblegeek/26.asp
http://www.mystae.com/restrict...ns/messiah/john.html

Anyway, it's not a critical point, really.  Just wanted to make sure everyone realized it wasn't quite so cut and dry it sounded in your post.  For what it's worth, I'd probably say that it's a toss-up between Mark and John for most reliable, but it's tough to say which is the more accurate.
Bart
player, 147 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Sat 1 Sep 2007
at 06:54
  • msg #100

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Heath:
They are saying it is borrowed from Greek, yet it is clear that the Aramaic equivalent was for spouse.  At the same time, the writers were writing in Coptic but understood ARamaic.  So, for example, if I use a Spanish word to mean "wife" when it really doesn't have the same connotation as English . . .

Wednesday, I was working and one of my coworkers was (jokingly) lambasting another coworker in Spanish.  Luz called Helen "mensa".  I was puzzled, as it seemed that she was trying to denigrate Helen, not compliment her.  So I asked her if I'd heard her correctly and what it meant.  It turns out "mensa" in Spanish means "stupid".  In English, though, Mensa (http://www.mensa.org/) is a long established group that purports to only allow those people whose IQ is in the top 2% of the population.  The two words in Spanish and English sound the same and are spelled the same, but they have completely opposite meanings.  It doesn't really matter very much what a word in a written account means in a different language, unless the author was trying to make a pun, because different languages sometimes have different meanings for the same words.

The authors were writing in Coptic, an Egyptian language, but one written with the Greek alphabet and thus Greek loanwords were relatively common in it.  Around 650 BC, the Arabs conquered Egypt and the resulting mishmash of Coptic and Arabic created Egyptian Arabic.  Although Arabic was certainly around back then and the authors probaby knew Arabic, since they were writing in Coptic I'd be inclined to go with the Coptic definition of the word.

Also, the Gospel According to St. John was probably not written by an eyewitness to Jesus' life.  As far as we know now, nothing that we have was written by an eyewitness to Jesus' life (well, except for the Book of Mormon, but that's a different subject).
Heath
GM, 3642 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Tue 4 Sep 2007
at 20:30
  • msg #101

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Tycho, although your point may be partially correct, scholars for the most part agree that John is the most reliable out of all the gospels...and almost has to be, given the differentiations.  (Sorry, I typed quickly, and don't always include all the myriad details...except that scholars do believe John to be the most accurate.)

Here's from our discussion on the origin of the New Testament:

Heath, Origins of the New Testament:
(3)  The four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were composed during and after the revolt of AD 66-74, when Judaism effectively ceased to exist as an organized social, political and military force.
(4)  Mark was composed during or immediately after the revolt (except for its treatment of the Resurrection, which is a later and spurious addition).  Mark was not an original disciple, but he appears to have come from Jerusalem.  He seems to have been a companion of St. Paul.  His Gospel (as Clement of Alexandria states) was composed in Rome and addressed to a Greco-Roman audience.  At the time it was written, the Jews were in open revolt and thousands were being crucified for rebellion against Rome.  In order for his Gospel to survive, Mark had to present it in a way that was not anti-Rome.  (He would have had to exonerate Rome from Jesus' death and not portray Jesus as a political figure.)
(5)  Luke is dated at AD 80.  Luke was a Greek doctor who composed his work for a high ranking Roman official at Caesarea, the Roman capital of Palestine.
(6)  Matthew was composed in AD 85.  More than half of it was derived directly from Mark's gospel, although it was originally prepared in Greek and reflects specific Greek characteristics.  The author appears to be a Jew (possibly a refugee from Palestine).  This is not the same as Jesus' disciple named "Matthew," who would have lived much earlier and likely would have known only Aramaic.
(7)  The first three Gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) are known as the "Synaptic Gospels," meaning that they see "eye to eye" or "with one eye."  They are enough alike that it is believed they derived from the same source (either oral tradition or some documents subsequently lost).
(8)  Nothing is known about the author of the Fourth Gospel (John).  We don't even know if the author's name was John.  Except for John the Baptist, it never mentions John, and its attribution to a man named "John" is due to later tradition.  It was composed about 100AD around the Greek city of Ephesus.
(9)  The fourth Gospel is quite distinctive.  There is no nativity scene or description of Jesus' birth.  The opening is also quite Gnostic in nature.  Unlike the others (which are generally assumed to be second or third hand accounts primarily focused on Galilee), John dwells on Judea and Jerusalem around the end of Jesus' ministry.  It also contains specific episodes and stories not in the others (such as the wedding at Cana, Nicodemus, and the like).  Based on these types of factors, scholars generally agree that John is the most reliable and historically accurate of any of the Gospels.  It draws more upon the traditions, first hand topographical knowledge prior to the 66AD revolt, and chronological framework that make it appear very authentic. (However, the scholars also agree that this Gospel also has been the subject to "doctoring, editing, expurgation and revision.")


Even from a legal standpoint, a witness is more reliable than a document purported to be taken from a document which is now missing (e.g. Document Q).

This is one reason I like to look at the Acts and writings of Paul too.

(But even relying on Paul, you are looking at a guy who was converted by an angelic visitation, which makes it funny to me when mainstream Christians criticize the LDS church for being founded in much the same way.)
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:32, Tue 04 Sept 2007.
Heath
GM, 3643 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Tue 4 Sep 2007
at 20:42
  • msg #102

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Tycho,
Also, I couldn't get the first site to work.  As for the atheist site, that unfortunately does not explain the historical context and therefore loses the quality of its explanation.

From my readings and from scholars, I think the most accepted account of the book of John is that John went about spreading the word and telling orally the stories of all that Jesus was and did in the manner of oral testimony.  It is known that he had many followers that followed him around.  The book of John was compiled around the turn of the first century and was likely (1) a response to the Gnostics, (2) written from firsthand accounts from John the Beloved (or perhaps transcribed from his own writings), and (3) based on the accuracy of its historical and geographical detail (as described above), is the most reliable of the Gospels.
Tycho
player, 735 posts
Tue 4 Sep 2007
at 21:10
  • msg #103

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

I think we more or less agree here Heath, except perhaps on the point of just how "general" the agreement among scholars is on John being more reliable than the other gospels.  While "most" scholars (ie, more than half) may consider it to be so, I don't think the position is held accross the board.  To a certain extent, the issue is the differences between John and the synoptic gospels, and which one feels is the more accurate reflection of the story of Jesus.  That accuracy depends on a number of factors, and it isn't easy to decide which to trust more.  For people who accept the gospels as divinely-inspired, and assume no motives for the authors beyond wanting to get what they considered to be the truth to the people, things like geographic accuracy might seem like indicators of historical accuracy (ie, if John says the store is on 1st street, and Mark says it's on 2nd, and we know for a fact it was really on 1st street, we might think that since John was right about the store, he was probably also right about what Jesus said at the weddding).  But if one considers motives and differeing beliefs to be part of what is in question as well, then the parts that we can check up on John about sort of decouple from the more important issues discussed (ie, if John has a reason to alter his report about what Jesus said at the wedding, the fact that he knows better than Mark where the store is doesn't really imply he's a better source).

Anyway, we're not really disagreeing too much, like I said.  I agree that there are reasons to consider John the most reliable of the gospels, and it's quite possible that most scholars consider it to be the most reliable.  However, I just don't want people to get the impression that all scholars think John is more reliable in every instance than any of the other gospels.  And, perhaps more importantly, that there isn't complete agreement that John was written by an eye-witness to the events described.  In the quote you posted from the other thread, you stated that as well, so we're in agreement on that point.
Heath
GM, 3644 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Wed 5 Sep 2007
at 00:29
  • msg #104

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Yes, I think we agree.  Scholars (good ones, that is) always find reasons to question their assumptions and the commonly held facts, so of course scholaras are looking at any facts which may contradict.  But I don't think that affects the general agreement that John is considered the most reliable (although not perfect itself) of the Gospels.

Anyway, it is John which has the most evidence concerning Jesus' marriage, so Christians who accept John without question as true must (in my opinion) also accept that Jesus was married.
Heath
GM, 3912 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Mon 3 Mar 2008
at 23:13
  • msg #105

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Elana,

Elsewhere you stated that Jesus was not married as though that were a fact.  I highly dispute that statement.  I think the arguments I posted in this thread (especially near the beginning) show this fairly clearly.  Jesus was in fact married, perhaps even had more than one wife.

This is a hotly debated topic in Christianity and resurfaces every once in awhile (in the 80's with "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," and more recently with "The Da Vinci Code").  But I wanted to point out that many Christians do believe that Jesus was married, even some Trinitarians.  To say that Christians believe he was unmarried is not entirely accurate.
Elana
player, 76 posts
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 00:13
  • msg #106

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Heath my appologies I was not aware that there are Christians that believe Jesus was married, I had always thought that Christians thought that Christ was 'pure' untouched and such, the fact that he indeed might have been married makes it much more believeble and human instead of this perfect ideal that some believe.

There was a documentary I watched showing how an Israeli archeologist uncovered what he believed to be Jesus's family tomb in Jerusalem. Some time back there was a discovery made of a box, i can't remember the correct term at this time, a box that holds the bones, anyway it was believed to be Jesus's brothers on it was symbol that the archeologist said was an early symbol of Christianity, it wasn't a cross. Anyway this symbol made him hunt out the tomb, which was known but not investigated properly, which this archeologist did given the amount of time he had which was limited. Anyway in it, was (reliques?) for mother and father, the space for the brothers and what might have been wife and child.
Heath
GM, 3919 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 00:23
  • msg #107

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Many believe that John took Mary and Jesus' family (believing that he had a daughter), and went to France to avoid them being persecuted.  Part of this is encased in the Da Vinci Code in a fictional format, but if you read my arguments above in the thread, I don't see any fair conclusion except that he had to be married.

If he wasn't, that was so peculiar that the writers would surely have mentioned it.  An unmarried rabbi?  That was almost sacrilege.  Also, the way he talked to Mary Magdalene supports nothing short of marriage between them.  Anyway, the arguments are laid out above.

The idea of Jesus being the way you perceive derived primarily with the establishment of the Catholic religion several centuries A.D. at the Council of Nicea.  But nothing canonical about whether he was married was included in any texts.  Those who still believe in the final results of the Council of Nicea tend to believe that Jesus was not married; those who are scholars of ancient Christianity tend to think he probably was married.  Whether he was married or not shouldn't really shake the faith of any Christian.

And that he had children while on the earth was prophecied by Isaiah...so unless Isaiah was wrong, Jesus also had children.
Elana
player, 77 posts
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 00:37
  • msg #108

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

There was something mentioned about Mary returning to Jerusalem from France shortly before her death, but i can't remember where he got the idea from.

Like I said it makes much more sence, the likelihood in my opinion was married and married young is high, otherwise why wasn't he married was there something wrong with him ect? That can be the only logical premis in my opinion why he wouldn't have been married, he after all could support a wife and family, it doesn't make sence that he wasn't.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:39, Tue 04 Mar 2008.
katisara
GM, 2627 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 02:05
  • msg #109

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Elana, yes, there was an ostuary found with the names of Mary, Jesus son of Joseph and James (or something along those lines).  What they failed to mention is that all the names were hugely common, and all were encountered regularly.
Elana
player, 79 posts
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 03:21
  • msg #110

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Now yoy remind me of it i believe that fact was mentioned but they had other evidence that made them think it was likely. But a question I cant remeber if it said brother of Jesus, which cant have been a comman name, Joshua yes but Jesus? And why is Jesus known as Jesus and not Joshua?
katisara
GM, 2631 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 03:28
  • msg #111

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

It wasn't actually "Jesus", since Jesus is an anglization.  You'd have to look up what the original name was, but apparently it was fairly common.
Elana
player, 80 posts
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 03:59
  • msg #112

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

I was told, taught that Jesus's real name was Joshua, but in hebrew ther is no 'J' sound so the 'J' sounds like a 'Y', the two names in hebrew sound alike. I was told Jesus is the Greek interpertation of Christ's name.
Sciencemile
player, 78 posts
Opinion is the default
for most everything I say
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 07:00
  • msg #113

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Yeshua Ben Yosef would be the proper name, Jesus being a mistranslation from a Greek translation of Hebrew.
katisara
GM, 2632 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 13:17
  • msg #114

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Ben Yosef I presume is 'son of Joseph'?

So how common are the names Yeshua and Yosef?  Like I said, they did agree that James (or I guess it's 'Yames') and Mary are hugely common.
Elana
player, 81 posts
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 13:38
  • msg #115

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Both names are very comman as they are both biblical names, Joseph being the fourth father of our forefathers and Joshua being the first judge of Israel, the man that led the Israelites after Moses. But Mary a comman name? It's not a Jewish name as far as I know, but Mirriam is and Mary's name might have originally been Mirriam, maybe.
katisara
GM, 2633 posts
Conservative human
Antagonist
Tue 4 Mar 2008
at 14:02
  • msg #116

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

That's basically what they said, that Mary was originally Mirriam or some derivative thereof, and that the Mary/Mirriam/whatever names (since we can't be 100% sure WHICH name it was originally, just its base, we should include all of them) made up something like 60% of the female names at the time.
Tycho
GM, 3619 posts
Wed 19 Sep 2012
at 07:08
  • msg #117

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Saw this in the news today, and thought of this thread.  Doesn't really seem to prove a whole lot to me, other than the fact that the debates we're having here have been going on a LONG time.  ;)
Heath
GM, 4969 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Occupation: Attorney
Wed 19 Sep 2012
at 18:06
  • msg #118

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Try proving anything actually "happened" 2000 years ago. :)  All you can do is trust the writings (ouch) or the assumptions reached from sciences like anthropology (and you know what they say about people who assume...).
Doulos
player, 112 posts
Thu 20 Sep 2012
at 04:50
  • msg #119

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Interesting article but lots of red flags combined with a lack of known information makes it tough to assess.
Revolutionary
player, 76 posts
Thu 20 Sep 2012
at 06:52
  • msg #120

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

In reply to Heath (msg # 118):

Heath, your use of the word "assumptions" by science is question begging.

I cannot think to name, and I would challenge you to do so lest I be myopic, a method of discovering fact & truth table valid propositions that is better than the rigors of science and the methods there in?
Heath
GM, 4970 posts
Affiliation: LDS
Occupation: Attorney
Mon 1 Oct 2012
at 21:22
  • msg #121

Re: Mary Magdalene:(Da Vinci Code)

Revolutionary, I am not addressing hard science in my note. I am addressing anthropological and related sciences.  They take various pieces of evidence and come to a conclusion, but that conclusion is often based on assumptions.

Example:
"We find a writing about X in the Dead Sea Scrolls."
"We can scientifically prove that the Dead Sea Scrolls were written Y years after Christ."
"We also have a foundational knowledge/corroborating evidence about A, B, and C that is 99% likely to be accurate."
"Therefore, we can assume that X is true and accurate within a D% margin of error."

So my point is that these anthropological findings use other evidence to come up with assumptions about another piece of evidence.  Even the scientists do not say they are 100% accurate because they cannot be certain about anything that "happened" 2000 years ago that is not based in natural science (earthquakes, etc.).  However, when people hear an argument like the above, they take it as the gospel truth (pardon the pun).

Hopefully that makes my point a little more clear.  There is nothing wrong with educated guesses, but in this field, that's really all they are left with.
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