So, I've heard a lot of people say both good and bad things about the d20 skill point system. Some say it's needlessly complex and makes it difficult for low levels to specialize while others say that the alternative (skill training) is oversimplified and doesn't make sense.

SKILL POINTS
At every level you gain X number of skill points to rank up your skills. Distribute your skill points as you see fit with your only limit being your level.

PROS

-Customization:

CONS:

-Complexity: Some people find this to be too complicated and tracking skill points and skill ranks to be a hair-puller.

-Futile Distribution: Sometimes 1 rank in everything is truly useless.

SKILL TRAINING
Rather than deal with skill points and ranks, you merely select a handful of skills from a list and gain a flat bonus to those skills.

PROS

-Quickplay: The skills are quick and easy to keep track of.

CONS:

-Lack of Customization: See above.

-Autogrowth: Everything grows with level. If skills grow with level, it makes no sense for the barbarian to have +5 Spellcraft or the Wizard to have +5 Climb just because they're a higher level. But a game without autogrowth in skills faces the problem of rising skill DCs and the problem of skills ever being used in combat.

---

What are all of your thoughts on this? Ideas for improvement on the skill systems?

 Well you got to ask yourself each time you run a campaign "are skills important?" in that game. If yes go with option 1 if no go with option 2. I have been  in games where even the same group used different options depending on the campaigns tone. I personally favor the SKILL TRAINING option, but I tend to run//play more 'Kick in the Door' style d20 games that revolve around dungeon crawls.

That's a good point. But how do you address the issue of autogrowth?

Wizard with +10 Athletics or Barbarian with +10 Spellcraft?

With no training whatsoever, they just autogrow to keep up with DCs?

If you disable autogrowth for skills, it changes the whole nature of the game and makes balancing DCs very difficult.

If you keep autogrowth, the skills become insensible and ridiculous.

 Honestly, I never ran a game long enough to hit that wall. The only Auto Growth system I had was in 'Yet Another Fantasy RPG' where your skill was the characters level. If trained you got a +5 bonus to the skill. D&D 4th ed. used a similar system. But the skills you could have were based on your class. Each class had a list of skills they could choose from. In the games I ran my group never got past the 10th level. We always wind up switching to another game or system then switch again, until we come back round.

In reply to Arkrim (msg # 3):

I don't think that it's fair to say "Wizard with +10 Athletics or Barbarian with +10 Spellcraft? With no training whatsoever"

A Wizard that has leveled up enough to possess that +10 in Athletics has probably been on plenty of adventures and climbed lots of stuff in those years.  Similarly, a Barbarian that's high enough level to have the +10 in Spellcraft has simply experienced lots of magic in his travels and has picked up some things along the way.

So while I do favor customization (I'm a number cruncher), I can very much understand a plausible rationale for autogrowth based on experience that's happening in the background over the course of a lifetime/campaign.

Customization has also the Con of increased Munchkin-ism:  no Wizard will ever 'waste' points to improve Athletics, for instance.  So I view autogrowth as basically forcing experienced characters to be a little more well-rounded.  That could be good or bad, depends on that for which your game aims.
This message was last edited by the player at 09:56, Sat 26 Apr 2014.

In reply to mofo99 (msg # 5):

Yes, you just re-explained the PRO of BALANCE for AUTOGROWTH and the CON is LACK of customization (and of course angry d20 fans screaming at the designers that 4E sucks and doesn't make sense). I'd rather avoid that fate completely if I can.

I thought about perhaps having the game use scaling DCs. Where it wasn't always fail/success but rather, more success based on how high of a DC you achieved. That way, autogrowth wouldn't be needed. But I haven't plotted out anything in more detail or found any other useful suggestions/fixes to it. And a well-balanced dungeon crawl would have a variety of skills needed as well as combat. Rewards would be based on success levels and quest achievement would be dependent upon a certain level of success. Something like that.

Note you are sticking with full greyscale vs. black and white progression.

You could have more tiers.  For instance...
You currently suggest just having trained an untrained.   How about trained, familiar, difficult and unknown.

Most skills start at difficult.  Your class or profession provides you a list of skills to be considered familiar.   You normally pick a subset to be trained in.

Purely for a starting point, let's say we were retrofitting pathfinder with this system.  Skills you chose at first level become your trained skills.  Those that are not trained but would have been considered class skills, get treated as familiar.  Everything else, except fly becomes difficult.  (Exceptions: linguistics for barbarian becomes unknown, or maybe some other shifts to unknown).

Trained skills treated like level+3, familiar treated as 1/2 level, and difficult treated as 1/4 level.  Unknown treated like 0

Feats could be used to make skills bump categories.  Original skills bought if begun as difficult get bumped to familiar instead of trained.

All that adds some complexity back but might be simpler than point but each level.  Granted, I'd probably stick to point buy generally for my own style, as I like the variance it provides.

In reply to LoreGuard (msg # 7):

I've actually explored this idea elsewhere and forgot! I called it STREAMLINE d20 in another thread here, but I had only 3 tiers instead of 4: Trained, Class, Cross-class.

But it's a great idea and a great compromise! I can't believe I forgot this.
This message was last edited by the GM at 17:19, Sun 27 Apr 2014.

Has anyone had any ideas to expand on skills or alternate ways of doing skills OTHER than "skill points" or "bonus + level = skills"?

I like 5e's Proficiency bonus.

What do you like about it?

Or more specifically, why DON'T you hate something that is so black-and-white binary it might as well be chess instead of D&D?

For starters, I'm ok with chess. Chess is not binary, but I'll accept your premise because Proficiency is (you either have proficiency bonus or not). What do I like about it? Simplicity. That seems to have been the goal with the reductions in skill. One thing I could do without is that there's no variation in wages for professionals or crafters. They just do what they do. That's it.

Skill points as is are very fussy. with this proficiency or not system, all the fuss is gone.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:47, Sun 07 Dec 2014.

If you don't like binary proficiency, you can always use the base proficiency (changing the first two levels to +0, and 3-4 to +1) for a "familiar" skill (anything not cross class or "trained only"), Maybe half level for a Cross Class (anything not a class skill), and full level for class skills.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:03, Sun 07 Dec 2014.

On a d20 scale +2 to +6 is pennies. So that proficiency bonus is really a joke to those who like to play epic adventurers instead of incompetent yokels who found a dungeon.

Telling me that someone with +5 is an olympian athlete while someone with +0 is an average adult human is horrendous.

+5 vs. +0 is a difference of only about 25%. So an olympian will beat a regular human at acrobatics 75% of the time, but that's 25% of the time a normal person defeats an olympian. And the barbarian is going to lose an arm-wrestling match to a peasant 25% of the time? And how does one create a "true master" of a skill if the game has nothing beyond advantage and a +2-6 based on level?

1) Huge scaling issue. My level 20 fighter is pretty much still a complete chump stat-wise, just like my level 1 fighter.

2) It causes you to miss out on so many aspects of a character. I can't make a "master of disguise" or "master of fear" because once they have proficiency and advantage, that's that. They're tapped. It's over. That street performer over there is just as good at disguise as the spy.

These are problems to me. How would you overcome them? (other than just ignoring them or pretending they don't exist)
This message was last edited by the GM at 20:12, Sun 07 Dec 2014.

I answered that already in post 13. The part where I designated greater variety by also bringing back class and cross class skills. I'm not talking about using the whole proficiency system, just the numbers. And by the way, there are things that let you double and add more to proficiency bonus as well, but since they're irrelevant because I only meant to suggest using the numbers, I won't get into them either.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:53, Sun 07 Dec 2014.

^ You seem to have trouble with this part.

Your previous post implied chopping up the already too small bonus into smaller bonuses (cross class and class), which doesn't address the issue AT ALL. So no, you didn't. You just ignored the question, which is not the same as answering it.

The +2 to +6 scale IS the problem. It's too small for a d20 game. The obvious answer is to increase the numbers, but at what scale is debatable.

If you split it up AFTER that, then you may have something useful to work with, but not before.

But if you just do nonproficient, proficient (cross-class) and proficient (class), that's still only 3 tiers of scale.

And a street performer expected to be good at disguises would certainly have it as a class skill if their class were "street performer" and yet would the master of disguise spy still be on par with such a character rather than superior in nature? So there needs to be a different distinction.
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:05, Sun 07 Dec 2014.

Wrong. My post exactly stated using your level or half your level for class and cross class respectively.

For clarity: at 20th level you use 20, 10, and 6.

No, that's what class features and Skill Focus are for.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 17):

That still doesn't answer the question nor does it offer a new solution that hasn't already been explored. Or are you merely unaware that this has been done before and just thought that up on your own without paying attention?

----------

Wrong again. 5th edition doesn't have those feats. You'd have to first suggest ADDING them back into the system.

Which would essentially just put us back to Pathfinder...

...So what did you like about 5th edition again...and are you just trolling me? Because you just went full circle with this discussion and I'm not sure if it's because you're completely unaware of what you're doing or if you did that intentionally.

I'm done with this thread. Clearly I'm no help.

Okay. Thanks for trying, I suppose. You clearly thought you were doing something, but I've already heard that before and I was looking for new ideas. Sorry. *shrugs* But I do appreciate the effort at least.

What is the goal behind the variation or house rule you want to explore?  Simplification, flexibility/variation, specialization?  Knowing the direction you would like would help me identify what directions might prove useful.

I'm actually looking for something that no one's done before.

Why does ACROBATICS and SPELLCRAFT have to be bonuses to certain types of ability checks? Why can't we have skills do more than flat d20 bonuses. That seems so bland and with a variation as small as +2 to +6 on a d20, the difference is practically meaningless in 4e and 5e while differences as big as 3e and Pathfinder leave us wondering why anyone would invest in CLIMB and SWIM when spells and magic items that grant +20 instantly make those obsolete?

I want to see a skill system where the differences have actual value in gameplay.

I don't want DIPLOMACY to be the bard's +4 to his Charisma check when he does the same thing the wizard tried to do by asking for a favor. I want his DIPLOMACY specialization to have something COOL that he does. Is there a way we can make skills function more like spells or special abilities that you can accumulate to represent skill in the field?

Something like that. I know it's vague and unique, but I'm really trying to brainstorm something that hasn't already been done.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:54, Mon 08 Dec 2014.

Not really vague, but it was enough to spark my interest back in this thread. I've seen it done in a LARP, so I know EXACTLY what you're talking about now. It was done differently than d20, so I may not be able to express it to you exactly how I know what you mean except to say you want to run down all the skill lists and say OK, all these classes get the numerical bonuses for whatever skill points they put in, but:

For a Wizard, Spellcraft is kind of Feat-y
For a Rogue, Acrobatics is kind of Feat-y
For a Barbarian, Intimidate is kind of Feat-y
etc.

Those aren't the only examples, each class would have multiple Feat-y skills.

Maybe for the rogue it might be that you can use Acrobatics to make your next attack a sneak attack, whether the opponent is technically aware of you or not. It might be called En-Passant.

Maybe for the Barbarian it might be that you can literally scare someone to death (or possibly stun them at low levels, knock them unconscious at mid levels, and kill them at high levels) if they fail a will save?

Just examples.

Also, it annoys the crap out of me that the Barbarian (or anyone really) can't really tie Intimidate to Strength.

Well in some games, reaching a certain rank or skill level opens up new actions.  In pathfinder and 3.5 most of this all got tied to tier feats instead.  However instead of tying it to feats, if you tied it to a proficiency bonus level or character level this could open up options.

Example: you could allow an individual to use their strength Bonus instead of their Cha bonus (if Cha is a penalty, they would take the Cha penalty but could then add Str bonus.)  At a higher level they are allowed to substitute Dex if using a finesse weapon.

Yes! Now you guys are cooking with gas! Something like that. But here's my basic idea:

Skills have ranks: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.

Each "rank" merely allows you to acquire a new special "feat" or "ability" that allows you to do something that emulates that skill.

Maybe you can move over difficult terrain unhindered because you're an acrobat?
Maybe you can move past enemies without provoking AoOs because you're an acrobat?
Maybe you can leap long distances because you're an acrobat?

Each rank would allow you to acquire another ability on the list.

In addition, which abilities you can select are based on your rank.

So rank 1 Intimidate allows you to choose either: Scare low level creatures as a free action or muscle extra money out of merchants but higher ranking Intimidate might allow you to scare targets to death or scare vast crowds of targets all at once.

------------------

The only problem this faces are "caps" at some point where you have "all of the abilities". Not sure how to face that one. It wouldn't happen quickly. 5-10 abilities can easily suffice.

The second problem is balancing skill points for such a system. They couldn't be INT based anymore nor could a class have 8 of them per level (that's like getting 8 feats per level). Probably a 1, 2, 3 scale (1 = low skill point type, 2 = average, 3 = high). Max rank would of course be your level.

------------------

STR for Intimidate instead of CHA could easily be one of the possible abilities you select allowing your Intimidate attack rolls against defenses to be STR vs. WIS instead of CHA vs. WIS. Just some thoughts.

Yep, that's how the LARP did it.


No idea, but I'm a little worried at designing 20 tasks for each skill anyway, unless we whittle down the skill list as well. Then it's daunting. Also I'm not fond of level 21+ games.


How about Total Positive Modifiers per level, so the default array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) gets 3+2+1+1 points?

Sorry, the 3 is a typo. Supposed to be a 2.

Actually, I was thinking of working with much smaller numbers.

Here's sort of an example of what I'm looking at right now. You guys have really helped me flesh this out just by letting me bounce this off you. What do you guys think? This make sense?

---------

KROGAR - Human Barbarian 6

ATTRIBUTES
--STR 18 (+4)
--CON 16 (+3)
--DEX 14 (+2)
--INT  8 (-1)
--WIS 12 (+1)
--CHA 10 (+0)

SKILLS
--Athletics  OOOO
--Intimidate OOOOOO
--Survival   OO

Athletics
--When krogar jumps, he can move 10 feet further than his STR check would normally indicate (to a maximum of his normal base speed).
--When krogar climbs, he can move 10 feet further than his STR check would normally indicate (to a maximum of his normal base speed).
--Krogar is not flat-footed while climbing.
--Krogar can lift extraordinarily heavy objects. Double his effective carry capacity for determining what he can push/pull one step at a time.

Intimidate
--Krogar can make STR checks instead of CHA checks to intimidate those in his presence.
--Krogar has a +2 bonus to attack rolls made to intimidate foes.
--Krogar can attempt to intimidate 2 foes at a time at no penalty. He takes only a -1 penalty per 2 additional foes he attempts to intimidate at a time instead of per 1 foe.
--Once per encounter, krogar can intimidate foe as free action instead.
--When krogar scores a critical hit, they can make an intimidate attempt as a free action.
--When krogar intimidates a foe, their morale penalty is -3 instead of -2.

Survival (handle animal/survival/knowledge nature)
--Krogar can ride a mount into battle and takes no penalty for trying to perform skills or attacks while mounted.
--Krogar can survive in the wilderness without fear of going hungry or being unable to find shelter. Environments where resources and/or shelter are extraordinarily scarce may be an exception.

This message was last edited by the GM at 02:48, Mon 08 Dec 2014.

That's really cool, but I don't know what you want to do for curent skill maxima. Do you want to bring everyone down. or just those with an obnoxious number like 8? nevermind
This message was last edited by the player at 02:59, Mon 08 Dec 2014.

Thanks. I'm not sure where to go from here. I know I can come up with at least 10 abilities for each skill, possibly 20. The "cap" is simply your character level. It seems a bit video gamey, but I like that about it.

It's less "roll a check...hurray, you got a higher number" and more descriptive. Things are more clear about what your character can and can't do. And the boosts are very weak but still useful so collecting lots of tidbits over time is a lot of fun.

I'm also open for any suggestions.

Well, I think you need to have some with minimum character levels for sure. It's up to you whether you actually name the abilities. I just came up with En Passant because I like the term. I'm pretty sure I'm using it for the name of a critical result over on my Fabletop.

That's cool. Yeah, I could name the skill abilities.

And I'm thinking 3, 4, 5 skill points for the scale. (or maybe 1.5, 2, 2.5, but that would get awkward)

I know the abilities are generally weak, perhaps half a feat's worth so getting 4 per level is like 2 feats devoted to skills. Considering most class features are devoted to combat or magic, this should balance it nicely.


POSSIBLE SKILLS

ATHLETICS (acrobatics, climb, fly, swim)
AWARENESS (perception, sense motive)
CRAFTS (craft: all of them)
INTIMIDATE (intimidate, fear)
KNOWLEDGE (knowledge: all of them, linguistics)
MEDICINE (healing, craft pharmaceuticals)
PERSUASION (diplomacy, perform)
SPELLCRAFT (knowledge arcana, knowledge the planes, spellcraft, use magic device)
SUBTERFUGE (bluff, disguise, escape artist, sleight of hand, stealth)
SURVIVAL (knowledge nature, knowledge geography, navigation, handle animal, ride, survival)

Any skills that emulate spells use your rank in the skill as your effective caster level.

1. ABJURATION
   
2. ATHLETICS
   
3. AWARENESS
   
4. COMBAT
   
5. CONJURATION
   
6. CRAFTS
   
7. DEFENSE
   
8. ENCHANTMENT
   
9. EVOCATION
   
10. FORTITUDE
    
11. ILLUSION
    
12. KNOWLEDGE
    
13. MEDICINE
    
14. NECROMANCY
    
15. SUBTERFUGE
    
16. SURVIVAL
    
17. TRANSMUTATION
    
18. WILLPOWER

ATHLETICS
-Racer (1):* Add 5 feet to your base speed.
--Agile Run (2): You are not flat-footed when you run and don't take the normal -2 AC for charging.
---Sprinter (3):* You can run at x5 instead of x4 speed. Stacking adds +1 to this each time.
-Balance (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity checks and saving throws made to overcome balancing on precarious surfaces.
--Improved Balance (2): You are not flat-footed while balancing on precarious surfaces.
---Greater Balance (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you balance on precarious surfaces (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Climbing (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Strength checks and saving throws made to overcome difficult climbing surfaces.
--Improved Climbing (2): You are not flat-footed while climbing.
---Greater Climbing (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you climb (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Leaping (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity checks and saving throws made to leap over obstacles or jump up to certain heights.
--Improved Leaping (2): You are always treated as having a running head start when you jump.
---Greater Leaping (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you jump (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Swimming (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Strength checks and saving throws made to overcome difficult climbing surfaces.
--Improved Swimming (2): You are not flat-footed while swimming.
---Greater Swimming (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you swim.
*Stackable

AWARENESS (perception, sense motive)
-Perceptive (1): +2 to Wisdom checks made to listen, search or spot hidden creatures, traps or objects.
-Farsight (1): Your sight range in any condition increases to double what it would normally be.
--Farshot (2): As the feat of the same name.
--Quick Scan (2): You can search locations in half the normal time necessary. If the search time is already only a full-round action, you can search twice as large of an area.
--Trap Sense (2): When you move within 10 feet of a trap, you can automatically make a Wisdom check to notice (or Intelligence check if you prefer). If you would normally already be granted such a check, you may roll twice and take the better of the two.
---Danger Sense (3): You gain 50% Fortification vs. Sneak Attacks.
Initiative: +2 to Dexterity checks made to determine turn order.
--Fast Reaction (2): You are not automatically flat-footed at the start of combat or during surprise rounds where you are surprised.
---Instant Reaction (3): You roll 2d20 for initiative and take the better result (instead of 1d20).
Insightful: +2 to Wisdom checks made to see through disguises and deceptions and saving throws to see through illusions.
--Detect Alignment (2): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per rank in Awareness.
----Zone of Truth (4): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per 2 ranks in Awareness.
------Discern Lies (6): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per 3 ranks in Awareness.

CRAFTS (craft: all of them)
(pick one craft): You gain +2 to Intelligence checks made to work with your selected field.
Master Crafter (1): You gain Master Crafter feat.
Efficient Crafter (2): You can craft, repair and redesign your selected craft with only half the normal cost.
Fast Crafter (2): You can craft, repair and redesign your selected craft in half the normal time.
Magic Item Creation Feat (X): You gain a creation feat provided you have a number of ranks in this skill equal to the minimum caster level requirement.
-Pack Rat (2): For the purposes of carrying capacity, you treat gear that you crafted yourself as half its actual weight.
---Come Prepared (3): You can pull small objects out of your pockets that were "there all along". This functions like the minor creation spell except that the quantity of materials is limited to your light load (requiring you to have a free hand to pull them out of your pockets). You can do this once per day per 2 ranks you have in Crafts.
----Jury Rig (4): You can jury rig a makeshift item. This functions as the Fabricate spell except that it requires a full-round action, has a range of 0 feet and it can target only a quantity of materials up to your light load (requiring you to have free hands to do this as well). You can do this once per day per 2 ranks you have in Crafts.
-----Major Creation (5): As the spell but limited in quantity equal to your light load and 0ft. range. Usable 1/day per 3 ranks in this skill.

INTIMIDATE (intimidate, fear)
Intimidating (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Charisma checks made to intimidate targets and to the DCs of fear effects you create.
-Cause Fear(2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
--Dread Aura (3): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Cause Fear as a free action.
---Dreadful (3): You can make Intimidate check instead of Will save vs. fear effects. In addition, a successful save against a fear effect makes you immune to that same effect for 24 hours and has no effect on you (instead of reducing duration, its negated).
-Doom (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
-Mass Intimidate (2):* You can intimidate 2 targets with a normal check at a time at no penalty. In addition, you only take a -1 penalty per 2 targets you attempt to intimidate at a time instead of per 1 target. This can stack each time adding 1 to the base number of targets and the number of targets you can add before taking penalties.
-Muscle Mass (2): You can use STR or CON instead of CHA to intimidate.
--Gruesome Blow (3): When you achieve a critical hit, you can make an Intimidate check as a free action to intimidate a target.
--------Fear (8): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per 4 ranks in this skill.
---------Fear Aura (9): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Fear as a free action.


KNOWLEDGE (knowledge: all of them, linguistics)
Pretty much all divination spells at some point.

MEDICINE (healing, craft pharmaceuticals)
Medicine (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Wisdom checks made to perform first aid, surgery and remove/treat illness.
--Combat Medic (2): You provoke no AoOs for performing first aid, surgery or casting healing spells.
--Healing Knack (2): When you heal a target or feed them a potion, you auto maximize a number of healing dice equal to half your rank in this skill.
---Invigorating Aid (2):* When you heal a target or perform first aid, you also grant them 1d8 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points cannot exceed 5 * your rank in this skill.
---Brew Potion (3): As the feat.
----Lesser Restoration (4): As the spell, usable 1/day per 2 ranks in this skill. You must use a healer's kit or healing potion on a target to create this effect.
----------Raid Dead (10): As the spell, usable 1/day per 10 ranks in this skill. You must use a healer's kit or healing potion on a target to create this effect.


PERSUASION (diplomacy, perform)
-Persuasive (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Charisma checks made to persuade targets and to the DCs of charm effects you create.
--Charm Person (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
---Charming Aura (3): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Charm Person as a free action.
---Willful (3): You can make Persuasion check instead of Will save vs. charm effects. In addition, a successful save against a charm effect makes you immune to that same effect for 24 hours and has no effect on you (instead of reducing duration, its negated).
--Bless (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
--Mass Persuasion (2):* You can persuade 2 targets with a normal check at a time at no penalty. In addition, you only take a -1 penalty per 2 targets you attempt to persuade at a time instead of per 1 target. This can stack each time adding 1 to the base number of targets and the number of targets you can add before taking penalties.
--Psychic (2): You can use INT or WIS instead of CHA to persuade.
--Graceful Save (3): When you achieve a natural 20 on a saving throw or when an enemy rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll against you, you can make a Persuade check as a free action to persuade a target.
--------Suggestion (8): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per 4 ranks in this skill.


SPELLCRAFT (knowledge arcana, knowledge the planes, spellcraft, use magic device)
SUBTERFUGE (bluff, disguise, escape artist, sleight of hand, stealth)
SURVIVAL (knowledge nature, knowledge geography, navigation, handle animal, ride, survival)
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:07, Sun 14 Dec 2014.

Are the parenthetical numbers level requirements?

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 36):

Technically, "rank" requirements but as max rank = level, that's true also.

Oh and I meant to ask you earlier about


I'm not aware of the other half of the thought.

I want to keep a 3, 4, 5 scaling, but I'm not sure if 3, 4, 5 is too much. So the alternative would be a 1.5, 2, 2.5 scaling.

Low: Odd levels 2, even levels 1
Average: 2 at every level
High: Odd levels 3, even levels 2

That's a bit more complex than I initially wanted but it keeps the number of skills acquired at each level low.

3,4,5 what, scaling what?

I'm pretty sure he is talking about using skill points, instead of having selected trained/untrained skills.  So he is talking about how many skill points you get per level.

Aah right, instead of the class's normally permitted skill points per level. So those that normally get 2 would benefit by getting 3, and the rogue would 5/level. Would everyone else get 4?

Yes. That's sort of the idea.

I'm trying to make skills very ability based. The rank is essentially meaningless except to describe how far along into a feat tree you are essentially.

It makes it "video-game-like" in nature, but I like that aspect of the skills.

I like video game designs as you may or may not be able to tell. Incidentally, I once had a rules set resolved with a d20 that I wanted to emulate Dynasty Warriors (at the time, it was 5XL) and even expanded it to include a zombie apocalypse game kinda inspired by L4D. People were too hung up on "standard d20" for it to work though. If I'd used any other dice for resolution they wouldn't have been so weirded out by it.

Me too. I'm not as familiar with a lot of the games as I used to be but I really like games that can bleed between the worlds with video game and tabletop (if that makes any sense).

I'm pretty sure what I'm doing can be applied to non-d20 games. I'm just starting with d20 (I usually do) because it's probably the single most popular tabletop. Whitewolf probably comes in second but I never liked "pool" games. Too many dice.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:26, Wed 10 Dec 2014.

You know I was just thinking...by creating a Combat and a Magic skill, you could essentially eliminate classes this way and make the whole game just skill point-based without throwing everything out of whack (balance wise).

You'd just give everyone the same amount of skill points, balance the skill categories between the basic archetypes (mage, rogue, warrior) and let people use skill ranks to advance their abilities.
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:37, Thu 11 Dec 2014.

There's a lot of ways you could eliminate classes, but this is certainly the most unique. Eclipse the Codex Persona is a complete overhaul for example.


Would you make hit dice BAB and saves be purchaseable too? I mainly ask because varied skill levels is supposed to be a balancer.

I never liked BAB or HD to begin with. I suppose I could just give everyone average and find another way to allow archetypes to appear.

Or I could just limit everyone to 3 class archetypes (mage, rogue, warrior) and let the details beyond that appear through skill allocation and ability selection.

Not sure which method would work better in combination with this type of skill building.

Well, Eclipse the Codex Persona gives a Warcraft skill, which replaces BAB, and they let you purchase your HD individually each level. I think d4s are free. It allows players to pretty much do whatever they want in terms of skills, abilities, and stuff like that. I've seen a few builds with 1 level of a pretty big HD, followed by multiple levels of d4s accompanied by a variety of other stuff.

BESM d20 had something like that too. I don't like that much insanity lacking archetypes altogether. There needs to be at least some structure to the base stats.

But if you were to do something like that with this unique skill system, a MARTIAL COMBAT skill would grant you a bonus HP and a new weapon, armor or shield proficiency proficiency each rank (or weapon focus, armor focus or shield focus or exotic weapon proficiency or improved unarmed strike).

MAGIC skills would probably be split up by schools of magic and grant you a new spell each rank (as well as additional uses per day in total).

The only trouble is the saving throws.

Alright.


Well, I like the idea of specifically gaining individual weapon proficiencies. It allows people to only use a daisho for example (at least that's what I think they call the Katana Wakizashi pair) and be really good at it. Or use All Axes. Maybe you could do 3 proficiencies allows the purchase of all weapons in a category (handaxe, battleaxe, great axe for example allows the 4th axe to be All Axes).

So under this system would you issue flat HP per level of Martial Combat?


I like this instead of having just one Spellcraft and calling it a day.

Role-master had a skill-ability that was called body development.  Allow upping your dice potentially be a feature of increasing such a skill.

Adding widening to a new school or weapon can be another option one could choose, or they can choose a to do something special with what they already know.

Posting from phone so may be a bit bare.

I merged Knowledge & Divination as the skill vs. magic would be redundant doing the same thing. I also merged Enchantment & Persuasion for the same reason. I'm considering merging Crafts and Conjuration as well.

So this is what we're looking at so far... missing anything? It'd be nice if I could get this to a solid 20 skills but 15 is also okay.

1. ATHLETICS (acrobatics, climb, fly, swim)
   
2. AWARENESS (perception, sense motive)
   
3. COMBAT (every weapon/armor/shield proficiency/focus feat, improved combat maneuver feat)
   
4. CONJURATION (conjuration spells and Spellcraft/Knowledge (arcana)/Use Magic device)
   
5. CRAFTS (craft: all of them)
   
6. ENCHANTMENT (enchantment spells, Diplomacy, Perform and Spellcraft/Knowledge (arcana)/Use Magic device)
   
7. EVOCATION (evocation spells and Spellcraft/Knowledge (arcana)/Use Magic device)
   
8. ILLUSION (illusion spells and Spellcraft/Knowledge (arcana)/Use Magic device)
   
9. INTIMIDATE (intimidate, fear)
   
10. KNOWLEDGE (divination, Spellcraft/knowledge: all of them/Linguistics, Use Magic Device)
    
11. MEDICINE (healing, craft pharmaceuticals)
    
12. NECROMANCY (necromancy spells and Spellcraft/Knowledge (arcana)/Use Magic device)
    
13. SUBTERFUGE (bluff, disguise, escape artist, sleight of hand, stealth)
    
14. SURVIVAL (knowledge nature, knowledge geography, navigation, handle animal, ride, survival)
    
15. TRANSMUTATION (transmutation spells and Spellcraft/Knowledge (arcana)/Use Magic device)

This message was last edited by the GM at 16:44, Sat 13 Dec 2014.

Well, you could separate Perform, Bluff, and Disguise into Acting, or perhaps Theatre.

You could separate the Animal Handling skills back out of survival.

You could make Linguistics its own skill (Perhaps adding idiomatic knowledge of each language as an in between step, so 1 point gets you a language, 2 gets you idioms in that language, 3 gets you a second language, 4 idioms in the second language, and so on).

Adding Profession back in might not seem too useful, but it'll bring you closer to 20.

That's 19. I can't figure out how to tease 1 more out of the list.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 54):

I didn't want to do any separation. That'd get more specific and messy. I was just curious if there were any aspects of the game I completely missed that I could add in. I figured there's always something I would miss and was curious if anyone thought of something else. Looking at it again, all I can really think of are "all those feats and class features" which all inevitably fall into one of these categories.

I did forget ABJURATION though. I suppose I could add 4 more by adding in the 3 saving throws and ARMOR CLASS as skills to grant people special defenses. Seems balanced but also seems weird and awkward.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:35, Sun 14 Dec 2014.

Adding Abjuration is a plus, but one of the things that weirds me out about the current list is that Enchantment has Diplomacy and Perform.

Instead of adding Armor Class, you could add Armor Proficiency. The first few levels get rid non-proficiency for light, medium, and heavy armor, as well as shields. After that it's down to reducing check penalties as well as spell failure. Either staggered, or in that order.

Regarding saves, I do think they would be a clunky add in.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 56):

I don't see the Enchantment as an issue. Afterall, the only difference between Enchantment and Diplomacy is magical vs. nonmagical. I suppose on that note I could clump Intimidate in with it. But then, I might as well just name it Charisma and call it a day.

Armor proficiency would get limited really quick. Perhaps "Defense" would make sense. That way we could include all the feats and abilities that allow you to boost AC, TAC, CMD and FFAC.

WILLPOWER and FORTITUDE might work since there are so many different resistances and effects that could work with those saving throws. However, Reflex would probably just get tied in as a part of DEFENSE.

That would leave us with...

1. ABJURATION
   
2. ATHLETICS
   
3. AWARENESS
   
4. COMBAT
   
5. CONJURATION
   
6. CRAFTS
   
7. DEFENSE
   
8. ENCHANTMENT
   
9. EVOCATION
   
10. FORTITUDE
    
11. ILLUSION
    
12. KNOWLEDGE
    
13. MEDICINE
    
14. NECROMANCY
    
15. SUBTERFUGE
    
16. SURVIVAL
    
17. TRANSMUTATION
    
18. WILLPOWER

Looks pretty solid. You see any obvious problems with it or anything we're missing from a d20 game that absolutely can't fall into one of these categories?

ok.


Yes, but they've already been discarded.
This message was lightly edited by the player at 01:14, Sun 14 Dec 2014.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 58):

What's been discarded?

I do like this though.

the "non issue" with Enchantment. Incidentally, lumping Diplomacy in with Intimidate would be better named Coercion, or Negotiation. And I'd still throw in a Theatrics type skill with Perform and the ones from Subterfuge that would equally fit there. It would bring the total to 19.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 61):

Ah. No, I don't want to get MORE specific. I'm trying to get LESS. Hmmm.

Theatrics would not have enough abilities tied to it to justify the skill, though I agree that Perform can be equally found in Enchantment, Illusion and Subterfuge.

I don't think abilities popping up in multiple skills is a problem. I think a little bleed is okay because the sheer massive number of abilities will still allow someone to max out two abilities and never be able to select them all.

These skills can actually eliminate the need for ability scores as well (STR, CON, DEX, WIS, INT, CHA) and base bonuses (BAB, Caster Level, Refl, Fort, Will, Skill Rank). You can use your "rank" to determine your BAB, Caster Level, Skill Rank and Base Save for a feat and use (rank x 2) + 10 to determine your effective ability score for a feat. This can determine prerequisites.

And I could set the max rank to 5 + 1/2 level and give all character 3 skill points per level. This allows them to work at maxing out a few skills at first and at higher levels they can start becoming more versatile so that even nonmagical classes start grabbing spells (epic characters to godlike characters).

Heck, this may eliminate the need for class & other forms of advancement altogether. You just start with a race, archetype and gain 5 hit points per level (maybe start with some bonus HP at 1st level to give it a video gamey feel).

Your species give you skill rank boosts as well as predetermined abilities that come with it. For example, a Gnome's "Speak with Animals" ability would give them: +1 rank in Survival and they can cast Speak with Animals as a spell-like ability.

You have spell points per day equal to your rank in the spell skill * 5. The higher the spell level, the more spell points it consumes. (0 = 0, 1st = 1, 2nd = 3, 3rd = 6, 4th = 10, 5th = 15, 6th = 21, 7th = 28, 8th = 36, 9 = 45). Highest level spell you can learn is equal to 1/2 your rank (rounded down).
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:39, Sun 14 Dec 2014.

Then why bother to add how you'd like to get it to 20 skills?


Oh really?



By that logic, you don't need Awareness. I very strongly think you do need awareness though.


You'll be agreeing with something I never said then. My whole problem is the inclusion of skills unrelated to magic, in magic.


Pass.


Neat.


...ick. More specifically, why cut out regular characters from essentially multi-classing (note that as a point based system player, I don't like d20 multiclassing anyway.)


Indeed. It does in practice with other point based systems I'm aware of.


That's part of the reason for not eliminating attributes in my opinion. You could start with 9-10 per level with the right race. You could then make Attributes Point Buy and give say... 2 extra points on levels where players could normally raise an attribute.


Nifty.

It was just a side note. Not super important.






Incorrect as that presumption does not follow the logic. Awareness is not only more commonly useful in adventuring, there are far more awareness abilities in the game than there are exclusively "performance" based abilities. You could grab a dozen or so off the bard but you'll find over a hundred feats, spells, species traits and monster abilities that have to do with awareness.



Oh well, then your opinion is withdrawn and tossed aside in this matter. The Magic vs. Not Magic was never a concept I would even bother considering. It's a silly distinction in a high fantasy game. Maybe good for a scifi or LOW fantasy, but not high fantasy. Middle-fantasy would be arguable.



You mean "no comment" as you have nothing useful to contribute on that topic? :P



Indeed.



Because there would be no classes...making it impossible to do otherwise? See following comments.



Hurray for point systems.



That's not a reason not to. You could just as easily use the skills. See previous comments.



I know, right? AND easy to remember. The exponential cost also encourages players to stick with low level magic unless they absolutely need it. But I suppose this can be tweaked in other ways as well.

I think I've contributed all I can at this point. I might come back later.

Yeah, I think I spent that whole last post just responding to you and not building on more of this homebrew. I'll update in a bit and keep expanding the skills.

No ability scores, classes, feats, etc. The only stats you keep track of are:

Hit Points: Start with 15, gain +3 per level up.

Skill Points: Start with 15, gain +3 per level up. You spend them to improve skill ranks and acquire special abilities.

Damage: Light weapon is 1d4 + half damage bonus, one-handed/medium weapon is 1d8 + damage bonus and two-handed/heavy weapon is 2d6 + (1.5 x damage bonus). Spell damage is determined normally, though your caster level is equal to your rank in the skill that you acquired.

AC: Your AC and TAC is equal to 10 + defense rank. Your FFAC is 5 + 1/2 defense rank.
Attack Bonus: Your attack bonus is equal to your Combat Rank, except with spells. Your damage bonus is also equal to this.
Spell Attack: Your attack bonus with spells is equal to the rank in the skill that you acquired the spell from. Your damage bonus is also equal to this. Your DCs for these spells are equal to 10 + your rank.
Fortitude: Your Fortitude bonus is equal to your Fortitude Rank.
Reflex: Your Reflex bonus is equal to your Defense Rank.
Will: Your Will bonus is equal to your Willpower Rank.

Ability Score: Any spell or item that normally adjusts an ability score, instead adjusts a special ability that creates the same effects. For example, Bull's Strength normally adds +4 Str, so instead it would add +4 to Damage Bonus with melee attacks or +2 Damage Bonus with melee attacks and +2 Athletics (Strength + Improved Strength). All such effects will add varying bonuses. Use GM discretion. Effects that normally deal ability damage instead deal penalties directly to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls and saving throws.

Old Skills: Any spell or item that normally adjusts a skill now just adds a bonus to ability checks made to perform the designated action. They don't actually adjust the skills listed here.

1. ABJURATION
   
2. ATHLETICS
   
3. AWARENESS
   
4. COMBAT
   
5. CONJURATION
   
6. CRAFTS
   
7. DEFENSE
   
8. ENCHANTMENT
   
9. EVOCATION
   
10. FORTITUDE
    
11. ILLUSION
    
12. KNOWLEDGE
    
13. MEDICINE
    
14. NECROMANCY
    
15. SUBTERFUGE
    
16. SURVIVAL
    
17. TRANSMUTATION
    
18. WILLPOWER

*Stackable

ABJURATION
-Abjurer (1): +2 to ability checks made to identify, craft or otherwise work with abjuration spells and magic items utilizing abjuration magic. This also applies as a +2 bonus to attack rolls made with abjuration spells, DCs of abjuration spells you cast, and saving throws you make against abjuration effects.
-Magic Feat (1): Acquire a wizard bonus feat of your choice (see wizard class's bonus feats). For prerequisites, treat your rank in this skill as your caster level and BAB. You can acquire only up to one of these feats from this skill per two spells you've acquired from it.
-Spell (1+): You acquire an Abjuration spell. The maximum spell level you can select is equal to your 1/2 your rank in this skill (round down). You cannot know more 1st level spells than 0 levels spells, or more 2nd level spells than 1st level spells and so on and so forth.


ATHLETICS
-Racer (1):* Add 5 feet to your base speed.
--Agile Run (2): You are not flat-footed when you run and don't take the normal -2 AC for charging.
---Sprinter (3):* You can run at x5 instead of x4 speed. Stacking adds +1 to this each time.
-Balance (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity checks and saving throws made to overcome balancing on precarious surfaces.
--Improved Balance (2): You are not flat-footed while balancing on precarious surfaces.
---Greater Balance (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you balance on precarious surfaces (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Climbing (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Strength checks and saving throws made to overcome difficult climbing surfaces.
--Improved Climbing (2): You are not flat-footed while climbing.
---Greater Climbing (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you climb (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Leaping (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity checks and saving throws made to leap over obstacles or jump up to certain heights.
--Improved Leaping (2): You are always treated as having a running head start when you jump.
---Greater Leaping (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you jump (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Strength (1):* Your carrying capacity doubles.
--Improved Strength (2): You are treated as one size larger for the purposes of combat maneuvers (if this is advantageous to you).
---Greater Strength (3):* You can wield weapons as if you were one size larger (if this is advantageous to you).
-Swimming (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Strength checks and saving throws made to overcome difficult climbing surfaces.
--Improved Swimming (2): You are not flat-footed while swimming.
---Greater Swimming (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you swim.


AWARENESS
Divination Magic: This functions just like acquiring Abjuration spells. It does not work for acquiring Divination spells that don't target a creature or object nor does it work on divination magic that creates prophecies or acquires knowledge spontaneously (such as Augury or Legend Lore). Any divination spells in the Knowledge skill are excluded.
-Perceptive (1): +2 to Wisdom checks made to listen, search or spot hidden creatures, traps or objects.
-Farsight (1): Your sight range in any condition increases to double what it would normally be.
--Farshot (2): As the feat of the same name.
--Quick Scan (2): You can search locations in half the normal time necessary. If the search time is already only a full-round action, you can search twice as large of an area.
--Trap Sense (2): When you move within 10 feet of a trap, you can automatically make a Wisdom check to notice (or Intelligence check if you prefer). If you would normally already be granted such a check, you may roll twice and take the better of the two.
---Danger Sense (3): You gain 50% Fortification vs. Sneak Attacks.
Initiative: +2 to Dexterity checks made to determine turn order.
--Fast Reaction (2): You are not automatically flat-footed at the start of combat or during surprise rounds where you are surprised.
---Instant Reaction (3): You roll 2d20 for initiative and take the better result (instead of 1d20).
Insightful: +2 to Wisdom checks made to see through disguises and deceptions and saving throws to see through illusions.
--Detect Alignment (2): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per rank in Awareness.
----Zone of Truth (4): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per 2 ranks in Awareness.
------Discern Lies (6): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per 3 ranks in Awareness.


COMBAT
-Weapon Proficiency (1): You gain proficiency with all weapons in a single weapon category of your choice (see the Fighter class' weapon categories).
--Offensive Combat Feat (2): You can acquire an offensive combat feat. It can be any combat feat that does not provide a bonus or reroll to your AC or saving throws. For the purposes of prerequisites for these feats, your BAB & effective skill ranks are equal to your rank in this skill and your ability scores are all equal to 10 + (rank x2).
--Vicious Strength (2): Add both your Combat Rank and Athletics Rank together and divide the sum by 2. You can use this as your damage bonus for melee weapons instead of just your combat rank.


CONJURATION
-Conjurer (1): +2 to ability checks made to identify, craft or otherwise work with conjuration spells and magic items utilizing conjuration magic. This also applies as a +2 bonus to attack rolls made with conjuration spells, DCs of conjuration spells you cast, and saving throws you make against conjuration effects. Exception: This does not include any healing spells.
-Magic Feat (1): Acquire a wizard bonus feat of your choice (see wizard class's bonus feats). For prerequisites, treat your rank in this skill as your caster level and BAB. You can acquire only up to one of these feats from this skill per two spells you've acquired from it.
-Spell (1+): You acquire a Conjuration spell. The maximum spell level you can select is equal to your 1/2 your rank in this skill (round down). You cannot know more 1st level spells than 0 levels spells, or more 2nd level spells than 1st level spells and so on and so forth.


CRAFTS
(pick one craft): You gain +2 to Intelligence checks made to work with your selected field.
Master Crafter (1): You gain Master Crafter feat.
Efficient Crafter (2): You can craft, repair and redesign your selected craft with only half the normal cost.
Fast Crafter (2): You can craft, repair and redesign your selected craft in half the normal time.
Magic Item Creation Feat (X): You gain a creation feat provided you have a number of ranks in this skill equal to the minimum caster level requirement.
-Pack Rat (2): For the purposes of carrying capacity, you treat gear that you crafted yourself as half its actual weight.
---Come Prepared (3): You can pull small objects out of your pockets that were "there all along". This functions like the minor creation spell except that the quantity of materials is limited to your light load (requiring you to have a free hand to pull them out of your pockets). You can do this once per day per 2 ranks you have in Crafts.
----Jury Rig (4): You can jury rig a makeshift item. This functions as the Fabricate spell except that it requires a full-round action, has a range of 0 feet and it can target only a quantity of materials up to your light load (requiring you to have free hands to do this as well). You can do this once per day per 2 ranks you have in Crafts.
-----Major Creation (5): As the spell but limited in quantity equal to your light load and 0ft. range. Usable 1/day per 3 ranks in this skill.


DEFENSE
-Armor/Shield Proficiency (1): You gain proficiency with all armors and shields in a single category of your choice: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Heavy Armor, Shields.
--Defensive Combat Feat (2): You can acquire a defensive combat feat. It can be any combat feat that provides a bonus or reroll to your AC or saving throws. For the purposes of prerequisites for these feats, your BAB & effective skill ranks are equal to your rank in this skill and your ability scores are all equal to 10 + (rank x2).
-Unarmored Defense (1): So long as you do not wear armor or wield a shield, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC. You can still apply armor and shield enhancements to mundane clothes or weapons taking up your armor or shield slot.
--Improved Unarmored Defense (2): So long as you do not wear armor or wield a shield, you gain a +2 insight bonus to AC. You can still apply armor and shield enhancements to mundane clothes or weapons taking up your armor or shield slot.


ENCHANTMENT
-Enchanter (1): +2 to ability checks made to identify, craft or otherwise work with enchantment spells and magic items utilizing conjuration magic. This also applies as a +2 bonus to attack rolls made with enchantment spells, DCs of conjuration spells you cast, and saving throws you make against enchantment effects. Exception: This does not include any healing spells.
-Magic Feat (1): Acquire a wizard bonus feat of your choice (see wizard class's bonus feats). For prerequisites, treat your rank in this skill as your caster level and BAB. You can acquire only up to one of these feats from this skill per two spells you've acquired from it.
-Spell (1+): You acquire an Enchantment spell or spell with an emotion descriptor (such as [fear]). The maximum spell level you can select is equal to your 1/2 your rank in this skill (round down). You cannot know more 1st level spells than 0 levels spells, or more 2nd level spells than 1st level spells and so on and so forth.
-Persuasive (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Charisma checks made to persuade targets and to the DCs of charm effects you create.
--Charm Person (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
---Charming Aura (3): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Charm Person as a free action.
---Willful (3): You can make Persuasion check instead of Will save vs. charm effects. In addition, a successful save against a charm effect makes you immune to that same effect for 24 hours and has no effect on you (instead of reducing duration, its negated).
--Bless (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
--Mass Persuasion (2):* You can persuade 2 targets with a normal check at a time at no penalty. In addition, you only take a -1 penalty per 2 targets you attempt to persuade at a time instead of per 1 target. This can stack each time adding 1 to the base number of targets and the number of targets you can add before taking penalties.
--Psychic (2): You can use INT or WIS instead of CHA to persuade.
--Graceful Save (3): When you achieve a natural 20 on a saving throw or when an enemy rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll against you, you can make a Persuade check as a free action to persuade a target.
--------Suggestion (8): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per 4 ranks in this skill.
Intimidating (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Charisma checks made to intimidate targets and to the DCs of fear effects you create.
-Cause Fear(2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
--Dread Aura (3): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Cause Fear as a free action.
---Dreadful (3): You can make Intimidate check instead of Will save vs. fear effects. In addition, a successful save against a fear effect makes you immune to that same effect for 24 hours and has no effect on you (instead of reducing duration, its negated).
-Doom (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
-Mass Intimidate (2):* You can intimidate 2 targets with a normal check at a time at no penalty. In addition, you only take a -1 penalty per 2 targets you attempt to intimidate at a time instead of per 1 target. This can stack each time adding 1 to the base number of targets and the number of targets you can add before taking penalties.
-Muscle Mass (2): You can use STR or CON instead of CHA to intimidate.
--Gruesome Blow (3): When you achieve a critical hit, you can make an Intimidate check as a free action to intimidate a target.
--------Fear (8): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per 4 ranks in this skill.
---------Fear Aura (9): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Fear as a free action.


EVOCATION
-Evocator (1): +2 to ability checks made to identify, craft or otherwise work with Evocation spells and magic items utilizing conjuration magic. This also applies as a +2 bonus to attack rolls made with Evocation spells, DCs of Evocation spells you cast, and saving throws you make against conjuration effects.
-Magic Feat (1): Acquire a wizard bonus feat of your choice (see wizard class's bonus feats). For prerequisites, treat your rank in this skill as your caster level and BAB. You can acquire only up to one of these feats from this skill per two spells you've acquired from it.
-Spell (1+): You acquire a Evocation spell. The maximum spell level you can select is equal to your 1/2 your rank in this skill (round down). You cannot know more 1st level spells than 0 levels spells, or more 2nd level spells than 1st level spells and so on and so forth.


FORTITUDE
-Condition Resistance (1):* You gain +2 to saving throws vs. one effect type (pick one).
-Damage Resistance (1):* You gain +5 resistance vs. one damage type (pick one).
-Endurance (1): You gain the Endurance feat. It only grants a +2 instead of +4 but it applies to saving throws against special attacks that create the effects it resists as well.
-Natural Armor (1):* You gain +1 natural armor.
-Toughness (1):* You gain +5 hit points.


ILLUSION
-Illusionist (1): +2 to ability checks made to identify, craft or otherwise work with Illusion spells and magic items utilizing conjuration magic. This also applies as a +2 bonus to attack rolls made with Illusion spells, DCs of Evocation spells you cast, and saving throws you make against conjuration effects.
-Magic Feat (1): Acquire a wizard bonus feat of your choice (see wizard class's bonus feats). For prerequisites, treat your rank in this skill as your caster level and BAB. You can acquire only up to one of these feats from this skill per two spells you've acquired from it.
-Spell (1+): You acquire an Illusion spell. The maximum spell level you can select is equal to your 1/2 your rank in this skill (round down). You cannot know more 1st level spells than 0 levels spells, or more 2nd level spells than 1st level spells and so on and so forth.


KNOWLEDGE
-Lore (1): +2 to ability checks made to identify, craft or otherwise work with knowledge spells and magic items utilizing knowledge magic. This also applies as a +2 bonus to attack rolls made with knowledge spells, DCs of knowledge spells you cast, and saving throws you make against knowledge effects. Knowledge spells are any divination spells that don't fall under the Awareness category.
-Magic Feat (1): Acquire a wizard bonus feat of your choice (see wizard class's bonus feats). For prerequisites, treat your rank in this skill as your caster level and BAB. You can acquire only up to one of these feats from this skill per two spells you've acquired from it.
-Spell (1+): You acquire a knowledge spell. Knowledge spells are any divination spells that don't fall under the Awareness category. The maximum spell level you can select is equal to your 1/2 your rank in this skill (round down). You cannot know more 1st level spells than 0 levels spells, or more 2nd level spells than 1st level spells and so on and so forth.


MEDICINE
Medicine (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Wisdom checks made to perform first aid, surgery and remove/treat illness. This also applies to checks made to identify, craft or otherwise work with [healing] spells and magic items utilizing [healing] magic. This also applies as a +2 bonus to attack rolls made with Healing spells, DCs of Healing spells you cast, and saving throws you make against healing effects.
-Magic Feat (1): Acquire a wizard bonus feat of your choice (see wizard class's bonus feats). For prerequisites, treat your rank in this skill as your caster level and BAB. You can acquire only up to one of these feats from this skill per two spells you've acquired from it.
-Spell (1+): You acquire a [healing] spell. The maximum spell level you can select is equal to your 1/2 your rank in this skill (round down). You cannot know more 1st level spells than 0 levels spells, or more 2nd level spells than 1st level spells and so on and so forth.
--Combat Medic (2): You provoke no AoOs for performing first aid, surgery or casting healing spells.
--Healing Knack (2): When you heal a target or feed them a potion, you auto maximize a number of healing dice equal to half your rank in this skill.
---Invigorating Aid (2):* When you heal a target or perform first aid, you also grant them 1d8 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points cannot exceed 5 * your rank in this skill.
---Brew Potion (3): As the feat.
----Lesser Restoration (4): As the spell, usable 1/day per 2 ranks in this skill. You must use a healer's kit or healing potion on a target to create this effect.
----------Raid Dead (10): As the spell, usable 1/day per 10 ranks in this skill. You must use a healer's kit or healing potion on a target to create this effect.
This message was last edited by the GM at 22:18, Sun 14 Dec 2014.