For clarity: at 20th level you use 20, 10, and 6.

No, that's what class features and Skill Focus are for.

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 17):

That still doesn't answer the question nor does it offer a new solution that hasn't already been explored. Or are you merely unaware that this has been done before and just thought that up on your own without paying attention?

----------

Wrong again. 5th edition doesn't have those feats. You'd have to first suggest ADDING them back into the system.

Which would essentially just put us back to Pathfinder...

...So what did you like about 5th edition again...and are you just trolling me? Because you just went full circle with this discussion and I'm not sure if it's because you're completely unaware of what you're doing or if you did that intentionally.

I'm done with this thread. Clearly I'm no help.

Okay. Thanks for trying, I suppose. You clearly thought you were doing something, but I've already heard that before and I was looking for new ideas. Sorry. *shrugs* But I do appreciate the effort at least.

What is the goal behind the variation or house rule you want to explore?  Simplification, flexibility/variation, specialization?  Knowing the direction you would like would help me identify what directions might prove useful.

I'm actually looking for something that no one's done before.

Why does ACROBATICS and SPELLCRAFT have to be bonuses to certain types of ability checks? Why can't we have skills do more than flat d20 bonuses. That seems so bland and with a variation as small as +2 to +6 on a d20, the difference is practically meaningless in 4e and 5e while differences as big as 3e and Pathfinder leave us wondering why anyone would invest in CLIMB and SWIM when spells and magic items that grant +20 instantly make those obsolete?

I want to see a skill system where the differences have actual value in gameplay.

I don't want DIPLOMACY to be the bard's +4 to his Charisma check when he does the same thing the wizard tried to do by asking for a favor. I want his DIPLOMACY specialization to have something COOL that he does. Is there a way we can make skills function more like spells or special abilities that you can accumulate to represent skill in the field?

Something like that. I know it's vague and unique, but I'm really trying to brainstorm something that hasn't already been done.
This message was last edited by the GM at 00:54, Mon 08 Dec 2014.

Not really vague, but it was enough to spark my interest back in this thread. I've seen it done in a LARP, so I know EXACTLY what you're talking about now. It was done differently than d20, so I may not be able to express it to you exactly how I know what you mean except to say you want to run down all the skill lists and say OK, all these classes get the numerical bonuses for whatever skill points they put in, but:

For a Wizard, Spellcraft is kind of Feat-y
For a Rogue, Acrobatics is kind of Feat-y
For a Barbarian, Intimidate is kind of Feat-y
etc.

Those aren't the only examples, each class would have multiple Feat-y skills.

Maybe for the rogue it might be that you can use Acrobatics to make your next attack a sneak attack, whether the opponent is technically aware of you or not. It might be called En-Passant.

Maybe for the Barbarian it might be that you can literally scare someone to death (or possibly stun them at low levels, knock them unconscious at mid levels, and kill them at high levels) if they fail a will save?

Just examples.

Also, it annoys the crap out of me that the Barbarian (or anyone really) can't really tie Intimidate to Strength.

Well in some games, reaching a certain rank or skill level opens up new actions.  In pathfinder and 3.5 most of this all got tied to tier feats instead.  However instead of tying it to feats, if you tied it to a proficiency bonus level or character level this could open up options.

Example: you could allow an individual to use their strength Bonus instead of their Cha bonus (if Cha is a penalty, they would take the Cha penalty but could then add Str bonus.)  At a higher level they are allowed to substitute Dex if using a finesse weapon.

Yes! Now you guys are cooking with gas! Something like that. But here's my basic idea:

Skills have ranks: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.

Each "rank" merely allows you to acquire a new special "feat" or "ability" that allows you to do something that emulates that skill.

Maybe you can move over difficult terrain unhindered because you're an acrobat?
Maybe you can move past enemies without provoking AoOs because you're an acrobat?
Maybe you can leap long distances because you're an acrobat?

Each rank would allow you to acquire another ability on the list.

In addition, which abilities you can select are based on your rank.

So rank 1 Intimidate allows you to choose either: Scare low level creatures as a free action or muscle extra money out of merchants but higher ranking Intimidate might allow you to scare targets to death or scare vast crowds of targets all at once.

------------------

The only problem this faces are "caps" at some point where you have "all of the abilities". Not sure how to face that one. It wouldn't happen quickly. 5-10 abilities can easily suffice.

The second problem is balancing skill points for such a system. They couldn't be INT based anymore nor could a class have 8 of them per level (that's like getting 8 feats per level). Probably a 1, 2, 3 scale (1 = low skill point type, 2 = average, 3 = high). Max rank would of course be your level.

------------------

STR for Intimidate instead of CHA could easily be one of the possible abilities you select allowing your Intimidate attack rolls against defenses to be STR vs. WIS instead of CHA vs. WIS. Just some thoughts.

Yep, that's how the LARP did it.


No idea, but I'm a little worried at designing 20 tasks for each skill anyway, unless we whittle down the skill list as well. Then it's daunting. Also I'm not fond of level 21+ games.


How about Total Positive Modifiers per level, so the default array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) gets 3+2+1+1 points?

Sorry, the 3 is a typo. Supposed to be a 2.

Actually, I was thinking of working with much smaller numbers.

Here's sort of an example of what I'm looking at right now. You guys have really helped me flesh this out just by letting me bounce this off you. What do you guys think? This make sense?

---------

KROGAR - Human Barbarian 6

ATTRIBUTES
--STR 18 (+4)
--CON 16 (+3)
--DEX 14 (+2)
--INT  8 (-1)
--WIS 12 (+1)
--CHA 10 (+0)

SKILLS
--Athletics  OOOO
--Intimidate OOOOOO
--Survival   OO

Athletics
--When krogar jumps, he can move 10 feet further than his STR check would normally indicate (to a maximum of his normal base speed).
--When krogar climbs, he can move 10 feet further than his STR check would normally indicate (to a maximum of his normal base speed).
--Krogar is not flat-footed while climbing.
--Krogar can lift extraordinarily heavy objects. Double his effective carry capacity for determining what he can push/pull one step at a time.

Intimidate
--Krogar can make STR checks instead of CHA checks to intimidate those in his presence.
--Krogar has a +2 bonus to attack rolls made to intimidate foes.
--Krogar can attempt to intimidate 2 foes at a time at no penalty. He takes only a -1 penalty per 2 additional foes he attempts to intimidate at a time instead of per 1 foe.
--Once per encounter, krogar can intimidate foe as free action instead.
--When krogar scores a critical hit, they can make an intimidate attempt as a free action.
--When krogar intimidates a foe, their morale penalty is -3 instead of -2.

Survival (handle animal/survival/knowledge nature)
--Krogar can ride a mount into battle and takes no penalty for trying to perform skills or attacks while mounted.
--Krogar can survive in the wilderness without fear of going hungry or being unable to find shelter. Environments where resources and/or shelter are extraordinarily scarce may be an exception.

This message was last edited by the GM at 02:48, Mon 08 Dec 2014.

That's really cool, but I don't know what you want to do for curent skill maxima. Do you want to bring everyone down. or just those with an obnoxious number like 8? nevermind
This message was last edited by the player at 02:59, Mon 08 Dec 2014.

Thanks. I'm not sure where to go from here. I know I can come up with at least 10 abilities for each skill, possibly 20. The "cap" is simply your character level. It seems a bit video gamey, but I like that about it.

It's less "roll a check...hurray, you got a higher number" and more descriptive. Things are more clear about what your character can and can't do. And the boosts are very weak but still useful so collecting lots of tidbits over time is a lot of fun.

I'm also open for any suggestions.

Well, I think you need to have some with minimum character levels for sure. It's up to you whether you actually name the abilities. I just came up with En Passant because I like the term. I'm pretty sure I'm using it for the name of a critical result over on my Fabletop.

That's cool. Yeah, I could name the skill abilities.

And I'm thinking 3, 4, 5 skill points for the scale. (or maybe 1.5, 2, 2.5, but that would get awkward)

I know the abilities are generally weak, perhaps half a feat's worth so getting 4 per level is like 2 feats devoted to skills. Considering most class features are devoted to combat or magic, this should balance it nicely.


POSSIBLE SKILLS

ATHLETICS (acrobatics, climb, fly, swim)
AWARENESS (perception, sense motive)
CRAFTS (craft: all of them)
INTIMIDATE (intimidate, fear)
KNOWLEDGE (knowledge: all of them, linguistics)
MEDICINE (healing, craft pharmaceuticals)
PERSUASION (diplomacy, perform)
SPELLCRAFT (knowledge arcana, knowledge the planes, spellcraft, use magic device)
SUBTERFUGE (bluff, disguise, escape artist, sleight of hand, stealth)
SURVIVAL (knowledge nature, knowledge geography, navigation, handle animal, ride, survival)

Any skills that emulate spells use your rank in the skill as your effective caster level.

1. ABJURATION
   
2. ATHLETICS
   
3. AWARENESS
   
4. COMBAT
   
5. CONJURATION
   
6. CRAFTS
   
7. DEFENSE
   
8. ENCHANTMENT
   
9. EVOCATION
   
10. FORTITUDE
    
11. ILLUSION
    
12. KNOWLEDGE
    
13. MEDICINE
    
14. NECROMANCY
    
15. SUBTERFUGE
    
16. SURVIVAL
    
17. TRANSMUTATION
    
18. WILLPOWER

ATHLETICS
-Racer (1):* Add 5 feet to your base speed.
--Agile Run (2): You are not flat-footed when you run and don't take the normal -2 AC for charging.
---Sprinter (3):* You can run at x5 instead of x4 speed. Stacking adds +1 to this each time.
-Balance (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity checks and saving throws made to overcome balancing on precarious surfaces.
--Improved Balance (2): You are not flat-footed while balancing on precarious surfaces.
---Greater Balance (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you balance on precarious surfaces (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Climbing (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Strength checks and saving throws made to overcome difficult climbing surfaces.
--Improved Climbing (2): You are not flat-footed while climbing.
---Greater Climbing (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you climb (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Leaping (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Dexterity checks and saving throws made to leap over obstacles or jump up to certain heights.
--Improved Leaping (2): You are always treated as having a running head start when you jump.
---Greater Leaping (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you jump (up to a maximum equal to your normal base speed).
-Swimming (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Strength checks and saving throws made to overcome difficult climbing surfaces.
--Improved Swimming (2): You are not flat-footed while swimming.
---Greater Swimming (3):* You can move +10 feet farther than normal when you swim.
*Stackable

AWARENESS (perception, sense motive)
-Perceptive (1): +2 to Wisdom checks made to listen, search or spot hidden creatures, traps or objects.
-Farsight (1): Your sight range in any condition increases to double what it would normally be.
--Farshot (2): As the feat of the same name.
--Quick Scan (2): You can search locations in half the normal time necessary. If the search time is already only a full-round action, you can search twice as large of an area.
--Trap Sense (2): When you move within 10 feet of a trap, you can automatically make a Wisdom check to notice (or Intelligence check if you prefer). If you would normally already be granted such a check, you may roll twice and take the better of the two.
---Danger Sense (3): You gain 50% Fortification vs. Sneak Attacks.
Initiative: +2 to Dexterity checks made to determine turn order.
--Fast Reaction (2): You are not automatically flat-footed at the start of combat or during surprise rounds where you are surprised.
---Instant Reaction (3): You roll 2d20 for initiative and take the better result (instead of 1d20).
Insightful: +2 to Wisdom checks made to see through disguises and deceptions and saving throws to see through illusions.
--Detect Alignment (2): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per rank in Awareness.
----Zone of Truth (4): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per 2 ranks in Awareness.
------Discern Lies (6): This functions as the spell of the same name. It can be used once per day per 3 ranks in Awareness.

CRAFTS (craft: all of them)
(pick one craft): You gain +2 to Intelligence checks made to work with your selected field.
Master Crafter (1): You gain Master Crafter feat.
Efficient Crafter (2): You can craft, repair and redesign your selected craft with only half the normal cost.
Fast Crafter (2): You can craft, repair and redesign your selected craft in half the normal time.
Magic Item Creation Feat (X): You gain a creation feat provided you have a number of ranks in this skill equal to the minimum caster level requirement.
-Pack Rat (2): For the purposes of carrying capacity, you treat gear that you crafted yourself as half its actual weight.
---Come Prepared (3): You can pull small objects out of your pockets that were "there all along". This functions like the minor creation spell except that the quantity of materials is limited to your light load (requiring you to have a free hand to pull them out of your pockets). You can do this once per day per 2 ranks you have in Crafts.
----Jury Rig (4): You can jury rig a makeshift item. This functions as the Fabricate spell except that it requires a full-round action, has a range of 0 feet and it can target only a quantity of materials up to your light load (requiring you to have free hands to do this as well). You can do this once per day per 2 ranks you have in Crafts.
-----Major Creation (5): As the spell but limited in quantity equal to your light load and 0ft. range. Usable 1/day per 3 ranks in this skill.

INTIMIDATE (intimidate, fear)
Intimidating (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Charisma checks made to intimidate targets and to the DCs of fear effects you create.
-Cause Fear(2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
--Dread Aura (3): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Cause Fear as a free action.
---Dreadful (3): You can make Intimidate check instead of Will save vs. fear effects. In addition, a successful save against a fear effect makes you immune to that same effect for 24 hours and has no effect on you (instead of reducing duration, its negated).
-Doom (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
-Mass Intimidate (2):* You can intimidate 2 targets with a normal check at a time at no penalty. In addition, you only take a -1 penalty per 2 targets you attempt to intimidate at a time instead of per 1 target. This can stack each time adding 1 to the base number of targets and the number of targets you can add before taking penalties.
-Muscle Mass (2): You can use STR or CON instead of CHA to intimidate.
--Gruesome Blow (3): When you achieve a critical hit, you can make an Intimidate check as a free action to intimidate a target.
--------Fear (8): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per 4 ranks in this skill.
---------Fear Aura (9): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Fear as a free action.


KNOWLEDGE (knowledge: all of them, linguistics)
Pretty much all divination spells at some point.

MEDICINE (healing, craft pharmaceuticals)
Medicine (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Wisdom checks made to perform first aid, surgery and remove/treat illness.
--Combat Medic (2): You provoke no AoOs for performing first aid, surgery or casting healing spells.
--Healing Knack (2): When you heal a target or feed them a potion, you auto maximize a number of healing dice equal to half your rank in this skill.
---Invigorating Aid (2):* When you heal a target or perform first aid, you also grant them 1d8 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points cannot exceed 5 * your rank in this skill.
---Brew Potion (3): As the feat.
----Lesser Restoration (4): As the spell, usable 1/day per 2 ranks in this skill. You must use a healer's kit or healing potion on a target to create this effect.
----------Raid Dead (10): As the spell, usable 1/day per 10 ranks in this skill. You must use a healer's kit or healing potion on a target to create this effect.


PERSUASION (diplomacy, perform)
-Persuasive (1):* You gain a +2 bonus to Charisma checks made to persuade targets and to the DCs of charm effects you create.
--Charm Person (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
---Charming Aura (3): Against targets within 30 feet of you, you can use your Charm Person as a free action.
---Willful (3): You can make Persuasion check instead of Will save vs. charm effects. In addition, a successful save against a charm effect makes you immune to that same effect for 24 hours and has no effect on you (instead of reducing duration, its negated).
--Bless (2): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per rank in this skill.
--Mass Persuasion (2):* You can persuade 2 targets with a normal check at a time at no penalty. In addition, you only take a -1 penalty per 2 targets you attempt to persuade at a time instead of per 1 target. This can stack each time adding 1 to the base number of targets and the number of targets you can add before taking penalties.
--Psychic (2): You can use INT or WIS instead of CHA to persuade.
--Graceful Save (3): When you achieve a natural 20 on a saving throw or when an enemy rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll against you, you can make a Persuade check as a free action to persuade a target.
--------Suggestion (8): This functions as the spell. You can use this 1/day per 4 ranks in this skill.


SPELLCRAFT (knowledge arcana, knowledge the planes, spellcraft, use magic device)
SUBTERFUGE (bluff, disguise, escape artist, sleight of hand, stealth)
SURVIVAL (knowledge nature, knowledge geography, navigation, handle animal, ride, survival)
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:07, Sun 14 Dec 2014.

Are the parenthetical numbers level requirements?

In reply to steelsmiter (msg # 36):

Technically, "rank" requirements but as max rank = level, that's true also.

Oh and I meant to ask you earlier about


I'm not aware of the other half of the thought.

I want to keep a 3, 4, 5 scaling, but I'm not sure if 3, 4, 5 is too much. So the alternative would be a 1.5, 2, 2.5 scaling.

Low: Odd levels 2, even levels 1
Average: 2 at every level
High: Odd levels 3, even levels 2

That's a bit more complex than I initially wanted but it keeps the number of skills acquired at each level low.

3,4,5 what, scaling what?

I'm pretty sure he is talking about using skill points, instead of having selected trained/untrained skills.  So he is talking about how many skill points you get per level.

Aah right, instead of the class's normally permitted skill points per level. So those that normally get 2 would benefit by getting 3, and the rogue would 5/level. Would everyone else get 4?