In a lot of d20 games, the damage increase rises incredibly fast. Almost as fast as the HP increase itself. This makes battles pretty short.

I enjoy longer more thought-out battles that require more strategy than just "use your most powerful abilities first".

So I thought of an idea that would encourage disabling an enemy over just raw damage.

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All HD are automaximized. In addition, several special immunities are granted while you have 50% or more of your current max HP:

• Ability Damage/Drain: Ability damage, ability drain and level drain cannot reduce you below 1.
• Mental Resistance: You can't be compelled to surrender or commit suicide and get a Will save to negate Power Word effects (even though normally they may not have them).
• Death Effects: Death effects stun you for 1 round and deal damage instead of death. The damage is 1d6/caster level unless noted otherwise (save for half).
• Disabling Effects: Disabling effects cannot affect you for more than 1 round at a time. A "disabling" effect is anything that causes the target to be unable to take their normal actions (confused, dazed, dominated, frightened, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, panicked, unconscious). If you are affected by a disabling effect that lasts longer than 1 round, you instead lose 1d6 hit points per round you would have been affected after the first.

*You do not gain these immunities against foes with a CR that's 5 or more points above your CR (your level -1 = your CR).
*Accumulating nonlethal damage equal to half your current HP or more effectively lowers your HP below 50% for these purposes.
*If a special attack lowers your HP below 50%, you are still treated as having >50% HP until that attack is full resolved.

Given that many d20 players are powergamey munchkins, this means that fights may actually last more than 2 rounds. :P

I do not recommend this for players who are not hardcore experienced d20 gamers.
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:56, Wed 01 Oct 2014.

So basically you want to play D&D 4th without calling it D&D 4th?

In reply to shady joker (msg # 2):

Oh god no, I don't want to change the entire combat rule set, class feature lineups or spells or dumb down the skills and gear. Psssh, clearly you don't know enough about the differences between 3rd and 4th edition to even make such a comment. LOL! The differences are way more complex than "doesn't die in one shot".

No, they really aren't. This is pretty much exactly what 4E did, though 13th Age does it better - it gives combat encounters some pacing mechanics to discourage people from just blowing their strongest abilities right off the bat and calling it a day. In fact, one of the biggest complaints people had about 4E was that combats were too long.

And really, look at the 13th Age combat system - www.13thagesrd.com

You'll find a lot to like there if you want to see a well-done pacing mechanic in action, especially the escalation die and the way abilities trigger off of it.
This message was last edited by the player at 07:20, Sat 13 Sept 2014.

In reply to eternaldarkness (msg # 4):

Clearly, neither of you have much knowledge or experience of 4E. It was far more different than 3.5/Pathfinder than this. They didn't even have the same class growth or bonus growth, they had missing skills, they gave lots of HP at 1st level and very little at every level thereafter with no possibility for CON to really improve growth, only base, they reduced all attacks to powers with set damage amounts that don't grow with level...the list goes on and on.

The extra HP listed here doesn't even give you enough HP to lengthen AVERAGE battles beyond a minute or two. All it does is ensure that things don't end in 1 or 2 rounds IF all CR's, items, abilities and so forth are measured correctly (within 3 levels/CRs of each other).

However, I'm intrigued by this 13th Age you're describing. What differentiates its combat style? From skimming through the pages they have abilities that deal (level x 5) damage (holy sh*t) and they give more than double the hit points D&D/Pathfinder does but the damage increase makes this meaningless since the damage still grows just as fast (if not faster). Is there something else in there I'm missing or is this just another supplement that disappoints me?

You're telling me i'm not familiar with a game i've been running and playing for years, and you run a D20 Game Design forum, but know nothing about one of the most innovative and popular D20 games made in years? Nevermind the recommendation of checking out 13th Age. You clearly skipped all the actual mechanics of it and wrote them off, just like you did with 4E judging by your last post.

All players who are experienced with both 3rd and 4th edition can CLEARLY point out that they have major differences in combat. You claiming that there is little to no difference is ludicrous and evidence that you clearly don't know what you're talking about or are intentionally trolling. So, if you're trolling, bravo, sir, you genuinely convinced me that you are indeed quite ignorant of d20 games. Jolly good show.

13thagesrd.com certainly looks interesting but its a waste of time to add more hit points if your damage is going to scale up just as fast or faster. Don't get me wrong, a lot of variants are very cool and can be done very well, but that one clearly missed the point. It could be a million times better than other d20 games in every other way, but if it doesn't accomplish the particular thing THIS thread is discussing, it's not really going to apply here. Maybe you'd have better luck starting your own thread specifically FOR 13th Age? I bet you could get some great feedback. The variant doesn't work here but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work elsewhere.
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:19, Fri 19 Sept 2014.

Where did I say they don't have major differences in combat? As a matter of fact, 4E was specifically used as an example of some ways to make combat last longer and remain interesting, as per your request. If you want a game with long, interesting combats, but relatively little increase in character durability or attack strength, then the D20 system is not the one you want, or you want to just do something like E6 and give characters a cut-off point, beyond which nothing else changes. The only way you'll achieve what you want is literally to cap growth of attack capability and let defense capabilities continue to rise to a point you're comfortable with. That's it: put a hard limit on offensive capability in comparison to defensive capability, and make strategy, tactics and maneuvering meaningful again. You know, like 4E did.

In reply to eternaldarkness (msg # 8):





^ Right there. The quote right there which you are now denying ever happened, is right there. Clearly you didn't realize what you were saying. :/

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No, you're missing the point in all homebrewing. The system IS what you want but you want to change ONE small aspect of it. That's what homebrewing for games IS. You're really bad at this if you failed to grasp that. 4E has NOTHING to do with this thread neither does E6. How is this difficult for you to comprehend?

The whole point was to take the existing system AS IS, and just adjust it as is listed in the first thread, not completely change it to a new system or copy an existing one. All this talk of other gaming systems has nothing to do with it. That shouldn't be difficult even for you to grasp. You can do this man, focus. Stop talking about the games you're obsessed with and stay on topic. Or go somewhere else where you CAN be an otaku/weebo about your favorite game systems and the other otaku and weebos can pretend to care about what you say.

But not here. This thread is for this particular set of homebrewed rules.
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:53, Tue 30 Sept 2014.

Updated: Changed "half damage" to "automaximize HD" as this is just easier to deal with.

Also side note, some customized Death Effect changes may improve the game style. Where the effect still almost guarantees death, it usually grants a character a round or two to act in battle before it kills them, meaning that a cleric or potion can still be useful.

Medusa's Petrifying Gaze: Deals 2d6 Dexterity damage + target is afflicted with Stoneflesh affliction (Fort for half damage and negate infection).

Stoneflesh: 1/round for 1 minute, Target takes 1d3 Dex drain and becomes slowed until they rest for 6 hours, Fortitude DC10 + 1/2 monster HD + monster's CHA modifier to half damage and negate slowed effect.
This message was last edited by the GM at 04:02, Tue 30 Sept 2014.

Max HP certainly does simplify things, making battles take longer as you indicated was the intent.

The half damage concept does have the benefit of allowing modes of play... if you have some encounters you want to last longer, but others which are less important which you don't care about.  [that is a more complicated play-style if different encounters have different play styles... but the idea had crossed my mind, so I thought I would mention it]

Expanding on that concept, if you wanted to make encounters last longer across multiple encounters.  You could assert that the HP between the 'normal' average HP and MAX HP could return after rests (kind of like vitality) effectively healing between encounters.

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I like the general idea of restricting some of the incapacitating effects, when people are generally healthy.  I think the idea of exemptions for creatures whose 'level' are higher than yours is also a good idea.

I have to admit... I wonder about the impact on a low level spell like sleep, however.  It being limited to only one round seems to eliminate most of its effect.  Perhaps one could add that immunity do not apply when they are flat-footed against the attack.  That way if a mage is able to get off a sleep spell, before they are aware of them, they could slumber away.  But if the mage charges in... and their opponents have adrenaline pumping, they can't expect the spell to keep them down for long.

I especially like some customization of things that were generally simply death effects.  I would hope those are not limited to only when people are healthy.

Actually, suggestion... what if Effective level (by CR) played a big part in the multi-round incapacity limitation.

If the attacker is 4 levels higher than the target... the full time happens as per normal rulse standard.
If the attacker is 4 levels lower than the target... any disability lasts at most 1 round before it is shook off.
Otherwise, any target under the effect of an disability is allowed a new saving throw against the effect each round.  Any effect whose original did not allow a saving throw, the individual gets to attempt a saving throw each subsequent round until they save.

Agreed.

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Agreed. We could apply the same concept to all "KO" effects where they simply deal penalty and slowly whittle you down.

Sleep: Targets take 1d4 nonlethal/CL (max 5d4) and are afflicted with Lullaby Syndrome affliction (successful Will save reduces halved damage and negates affliction).

Lullaby Syndrome: 1/round for 1 round/CL, target takes 1d4 nonlethal and becomes fatigued (or exhausted if already fatigued or slowed if already exhausted or unconscious if already exhausted and slowed), Will DC10 + spell level + caster's spellcasting modifier halves damage and negates the additional condition but doesn't cure previously accumulated conditions.

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So, we could simplify this all to:
-If target's CR is higher than yours, divide your duration/damage against them by the difference in CR to a minimum of 1 before a saving throw is made? (which a successful saving throw for half could reduce a 1 to 0)
-Thus even a lucky/unlucky saving throw won't totally destroy a monster or player? And players can still dominate and decimate lower level minions. I like it. Actually fairly simple.
This message was last edited by the GM at 15:01, Tue 30 Sept 2014.

One potential drawback of that rule would be the way it works when lower-level characters attack the PCs-- I've always enjoyed "Tucker's Kobolds"-style ambushes (time-consuming as they can be), but with this houserule the PCs could easily ignore even a large number of monsters a few levels below them.

In reply to Cassus (msg # 13):

Are there any low level monsters that specialize in duration effects? Most of the time when players face low level monsters there are hordes of them and the danger is the fact that they crit, flank and outmaneuver the party. Which such tactics aren't really harmed by this houserule.

Is there are particular type of ambush you use that requires a duration effect to last more than 1 round or the horde is useless?

In reply to Arkrim (msg # 14):

Duration?  No.  But they almost all rely on damage, right?

The house rule for hit points increases HP for everyone.

So the ratio isn't changed for that.

Instant battle-ending conditions transformed to afflictions:

Ability Scores & Level Drain: Any effect that would normally reduce your ability score to 0 cannot reduce it below 1 until your hit points are at 50% or lower. Any ability damage/drain done while already at 1 is converted to level drain (and vice versa). Once both are at 1, only then can you be reduced to 0 (and the conversion ceases). Effects that don't normally cause level drain don't require a save (level drain heals automatically with rest).

Death: Any effect that would normally instantly kill you instead afflicts you with Death syndrome.

Petrification: Any effect that would normally instantly petrify you instead afflicts you with Petrification syndrome.

Unconscious: Any effect that would normally make you unconscious instead afflicts you with Lullaby syndrome.

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Death Syndrome: Target takes 1d6 damage per CL/HD every round (damage type is same as a vicious weapon). Fort or Will for half (depending on effect that created it). In addition, upon 1st failed save target is fatigued, 2nd failed save target is exhausted, 3rd failed save target is slowed and 4th failed save target falls unconscious and remains so until cured. Any effect that can counterspell or dispel the death effect can dispel death syndrome caused by it.

Petrification Syndrome: See Above.

Lullaby Syndrome: See Above.