Most wealth and social rules either require loads of bean counting, or they're freeform, relying on GM fiat. Is there something in-between? I'm looking to find/create a simple and adaptable system that will track wealth and status competently without becoming a chore.

Personally, I like the idea of fluid wealth, where you make a roll instead of calculating your exact heap of gold. D20 Modern did this first as far as I know where you basically had a wealth score and an "average" purchase was put on the mid point of the die roll I think (DC 10 for d20) and you may have had a wealth score too, I'm not really sure (old memories and such).

There was a Pyramid article where GURPS did this too, and Wealth Score was based on the CP you spent on wealth. That was also applied to rolls. It bothers me that I can't currently remember the Pyramid, but it may be too crunchy anyway.

Rank and Status? that's a different story. Depends how granular you want to get. Probably not much. I saw a d20 book about war that allowed level based titles, and Decorations that granted Diplomacy bonuses among certain crowds, but I don't remember it much.

There's 8 ranks in the standard GURPS system. I saw a thread that suggested that was way too limiting, and Kromm even posted that you could use fractional rank at a point a pop to represent higher granularity (which I'd already been doing before Social Engineering ever came out) in conjunction with the informal Courtesy Rank.

You discussed specific systems OOC. Are there any proprietary functions you'd like to emulate?

Hmm, I'm not familiar with any of those, so there may be something in them that might spark some ideas, thanks.

Fluid wealth sounds like it could solve some bean counting issues - provided it works reasonably well.

Functions to emulate? Hmm.

I started out with En Garde! I liked the idea of characters having to climb the 'greasy pole' of life and be careful of their actions lest they slide back down into debtors' jail.

My current system has twenty levels from peasant to Emperor.
Increased status requires increased upkeep.
Overstretching creates problems.
Characters are conscious of limited funds.
Loans are available but are risky.
Increasing status enables increasing influence over officialdom. And vice versa.
Good marriages can add wealth and status, but partners can be a millstone for adventurers.
Military ranks interweave with social status, particularly at higher levels.
Investments and trading should play a part, up to and including shipping.
Characters can have a day job, but it shouldn't interfere with adventuring.
At higher levels, wealth and status should be linked to land ownership.
Different sized estates should provide proportional income.
Different levels of wealth and status should have their own problems.

Unlike EG, this shouldn't take over the game, it should be an easily adjudicated add-on. Perhaps each level has a different fluid wealth level? Or something...

It might. I will have to dig it up for you.


I assume you mean Status levels instead of the d20 standard of Class/Character Levels. I would be interested in knowing what the 20 ranks were.


Default rule of GURPS


in GURPS it creates both problems and benefits, depending on the circumstance


being specifically conscious of limited funds may be a problem with Wealth Rolls, but there is the general rule that you never really know when you'll randomly fail such a roll.


In what way?


Standard GURPS Status.


Rules for this in GURPS are based on the legal system, which is a campaign specific detail and GURPS doesn't get that specific.


Status Imputes Rank by Standard GURPS Rules but the Social Engineering book extrapolates further by making it based on points spent rather than specified numerical rank.


I know of no system that discusses this other than (presumably) what you mentioned, and GURPS Low Tech. Pathfinders Ultimate Campaigns really tries though. I hear Kingmaker extrapolates further.


Standard GURPS assumption.


GURPS doesn't make a specific ruling on that, but assumes Status does indeed come with that. It also assumes that pays your Cost of Living. if you have positive status.


GURPS City Stats discusses Town Wealth Level defaults.


They do. this also differs based on whether your status is derived from Military Rank


Yeah, the pyramid article turns it into a score.

I'm really sorry this turned into me saying GURPS! GURPS! GURPS! GURPS! GURPS! GURPS! GURPS! but I've seen a lot of systems, and I only know of one that actually gives you points for negotiations. I do think that Fluid Wealth thing could be made generic, so when I find the article, I'll snip a bit and include it here.

Here's the bits of the article I thought were relevant based on what you've said:

Fluid Wealth
Wealth Score
5 (Homeless)
6 (Destitute)
7 (Working Poor)
8 (Working Class)
9 (Tradespeople)
10 (Middle Class)
11 (Working Rich)
12 (Wealthy)
13 (Very Wealthy)
14 (Millionaire)
15 (Multimillionaire)
16 (Billionaire)
17 (Multibillionaire)
18 (Megacorporation)
19 (Small Nation)
20 (Medium Nation)
21 (Large Nation)
22 (Wealthy Nation)
23 (Multiplanetary Empire)
24 (Galactic Empire)

Whenever an adventurer wants to buy something, roll against the Wealth score just like any other skill or characteristic. A success means he buys the item. Failure means he can’t afford it right now. The particulars of the purchase are up to the player and GM.

Each level of Wealth has a Threshold Value that represents how much someone can spend; It's about a quarter of the monthly pay that a member of the appropriate wealth or status would expect to obtain (which I simplified to avoid having to copy a table).

Normal Purchases
These consist of anything up to Threshold value. Whenever you roll for a normal purchase:

• A critical success buys the item with no penalty for future purchases.
• A success buys the item, but gives -1 to Wealth rolls for one month. All penalties for purchases are cumulative – someone who has made three normal purchases is at a -3 to Wealth rolls to make a fourth.
• A failure doesn’t buy the item. Try again after one week.
• A critical failure doesn’t buy the item, but carries the same penalty as a success.

Cheap Purchases
These consist of anything that costs between 1/10th and 1/2 of the Threshold Value. Whenever you roll for a cheap purchase:

• A critical success buys the item with no penalty for future purchases.
• A success buys the item, but gives -1 to Wealth rolls for one month. All penalties for purchases are cumulative – someone who has made three normal purchases is at a -3 to Wealth rolls to make a fourth.
• A failure doesn’t buy the item. Try again after one day.
• A critical failure doesn’t buy the item, but carries the same penalty as a success.

Trivial Purchases
Anyone can make trivial purchases for stuff that costs 1/10th or less of their Threshold Value. This applies only to regular personal purchases of inexpensive items. Stockpiling small things – ammo, for example requires a Wealth roll based on the total amount a person wants to buy.

This rule never circumvents logistic, legal, or licensing issues that accompany buying some items. The cost of a surface-to-air missile might be trivial to a billionaire, but waiting periods and legal restrictions still apply. In some cases, the process for getting an item might include licensing fees, bribes, and other expenditures that are themselves individual purchases.

Expensive Purchases
An adventure could require expensive equipment. A favorite dependent might need a rare a costly herb to recover from illness. Whatever the reason, this means taking on credit or financial risks that affect spending well into the future. For items above the Threshold Value for a character’s Wealth level, apply -1 to the attempt to buy that item. At double the Threshold Value, and each subsequent doubling, increase the penalty by 1.

• A critical success gets the item, and imposes -1 on Wealth rolls (cumulative with all other penalties to Wealth) for a number of months equal to the penalty on the attempt. It does not actually reduce your Wealth score –your Threshold Value does not change.
• A success is treated as a critical success, except the -1 does reduce your Wealth score (and thus your Threshold Value).
• A failure doesn’t buy the item. Try again in a month. If the penalty on Wealth was -3 or lower, the attempt inflicts -1 on Wealth rolls for one month.
• A critical failure doesn’t buy the item, but inflicts the same penalties as a critical success.

Pooling Resources
Party members will inevitably want to combine their assets to afford larger purchases. Handle this by subdividing the total cost of an item and having individuals make a Wealth roll for their part of the total bill. Let the group split the shares among themselves as they see fit. When pooling resources, it’s never possible for a purchase to qualify as trivial. Even a share that would normally qualify as such would instead be treated as cheap.

A note on dice/resolution: GURPS uses 3d6, roll under. if you are using d20, feel free to double penalties, or follow a -2, -5, -10, progression.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:24, Mon 24 Nov 2014.

I noticed that table may be a bit too wide range for your game, especially if you only have (at best) planetary rule and that you said you only have 20 levels. so I thought the following amendments could be made:

1    (Homeless)
2    (Destitute)
3    (Working Poor)
4    (Working Class)
5    (Tradespeople)
6    (Middle Class)
7    (Working Rich)
8    (Wealthy)
9-10 (Very Wealthy)
11   (Millionaire)
12   (Multimillionaire)
13   (Billionaire)
14   (Multibillionaire)
15   (Megacorporation)
16   (Small Nation)
17   (Medium Nation)
18   (Large Nation)
19   (Wealthy Nation)
20   (Planetary Empire)

If you're using d20 with DCs, this would allow you to set DCs up to 40. We can discuss other dice mechanics too.

This reminds me a bit of a boardgame... it was called rat-race.  It involved moving up in the world, buying status symbols which would help you enter higher tiers, which would give you more money, which would help you climb to greater status.

Perhaps something that might help would be to identify certain things... either concrete or general... which might represent items of Capital.  These items would potentially act as these status symbols which much be acquired to advance into a new tier or level in the social/economic scales.

Having 'status symbols' for tiers lower than your current... are of no value to the system.  A wealthy merchant may have his first cart he used to sell supplies he stole or managed to scavenge... allowing him to start his business but it is a level 2 or 3 capital item, and of no consequence to others.  [GM could allow them to keep it, or they could, if they think it is appropriate, require some upkeep roll to make sure it is kept in an appropriate condition.  Or... with some flexibility... the cart could become a 'luxury' item... placed in an expensive glass case and polished daily.]  If the latter... it is no longer a 'cart' but an item which is upgraded to something 'expensive' that shows your ability to 'maintain' something above the norm.

So I would suggest that there would be some sort of a basic living roll that would need to be made.  This would probably help set the 'stage' for what are trivial expenditures.  If you fail one of these rolls, you find you have to taking penalties to your attempted expenditures, or you have to cut back your living... taking extra penalties on attempts to advance.  (or perhaps making you ineligible to advance for a certain time)

You have been living as a tradesperson, looking to enter the middle class.  You make your monthly wages roll and fail.  depending on how you work the rules:
The failure might well:
  Flat out keep you from making 'advancement' rolls, even if you have acquired the necessary status symbols to try entering the middle class, because people see you are skimping.
  The rules might allow you to continue to live at your 'normal' level (same levels for trivial, etc) but force upon you an additional penalty for a given span of time, if they choose to live above their 'currently' experienced income.
  The rules might allow you to drop your effective lifestyle... adjusting trivial limits and other buying aspects... hopefully temporarily... but perhaps it might require a roll to make sure you don't actually slip and fall down to that level permanently.

Some examples however that I think would help.  With the concept of Capital.  A poor blacksmith can have a smithy... that has equipment that is well above his typical 'price-range' of items... but that are integral to the business of his smithy.  Things he cant just give away without consequence.  [So yes... he has an extra good hammer... so they may be able to borrow and use it... but if something breaks it... he would have to replace it or his smithy/capital might risk degrading.]

I'm thinking capital items would probably require you to roll a wealth check every so often... its difficulty based on the 'level' of that capital.  The frequency based on the difference between your wealth level and the level of the capital in question.
Perhaps a Captial of your level, requires a roll once a year.  One one higher, requires a roll every 6 months.  One 2 higher, once every 3 months, one 3 higher every 2 months, 4 higher once every other month, and 5 higher every month.  Failing this check risks a chance that you degrade or lose your capital item.

Anyway... I know that isn't a lot of detail... and even then, might be too crunchy... but I thought I might throw out some thoughts, to see if any of it is in a vein you might be able to work with.

A secondary benefit perhaps of having a status symbol of a particular type of business.  I would suggest that things are tied closely to that particular buisness as a consumable... or product of it, you can probably treat items something like twice the normal price for that [level] as a trivial expense.  So if you own a Wealthy Restaurant, you can eat and provide food for a close group of acquaintances at something similar to twice the level a normal average wealthy person might have access to for daily meals.  [these wouldn't all have to be at your restaurant, as you may have common suppliers... or may have helped out a fellow restaurant owner out, etc.

And my example of borrowing the hammer... if the hammer is cheap enough that it is less than twice a trivial expense... then if something did happen to it... it would not likely be any consequence.

Just another thought to throw out there.

Coming to a determination of what a monthly wage is for middle class (and what ratios to that different levels equate to) would determine what a trivial expenditure, since a trivial expenditure is 1/10th of a quarter of monthly wages under this system (or about 2%).

As for "basic living rolls" Those could probably be ballparked about Threshold x 3 (75% of monthly earnings) including taxes. This would be a monthly Expensive Purchase using Wealth -1 (whether that be the score you'd roll under, or the number you'd add to your roll depending on dice resolution) and taking the results already outlined


Well, d20's Pathfinder Ultimate Campaigns suggests yearly rolls on investments. You could say... give up a point of wealth each month for a year and consult the following

Investment      Normal Return   Failed Year     Normal Year     Breakout Year   Breakout Return %
Arts
Creative        4%              01–30           31–95           96–00           2d4+1
Performing      2%              01–35           36–95           96–00           2d6+1
Banking         2%              01–10           11–98           99–00           1d4+1
Crafting
Common          1%              01–05           06–95           96–00           1d3+1
Magical         5%              01–30           31–95           96–00           1d8+1
Military        5%              01–15           16–90           91–00           1d6+1
Exploration     2%              01–40           41–85           86–00           2d8+1
Granary/Mill    3%              01–10           11–98           99–00           1d3+1
Guild
Assassins       5%              01–30           31–95           96–00           2d4+1
Crafting        2%              01–05           06–98           99–00           1d3+1
Merchant        3%              01–10           11–98           99–00           1d4+1
Thieves'        4%              01–15           16–90           91–00           1d8+1
Imports
Exotic          5%              01–30           31–90           91–00           1d10+1
Ordinary        2%              01–15           16–95           96–00           1d4+1
Invention       3%              01–40           41–90           91–00           2d6+1
Protection      3%              01–30           31–95           96–00           1d8+1
Quarry          3%              01–20           21–90           91–00           1d6+1
Research
Magical         5%              01–50           51–75           76–00           2d6+1
Mundane         3%              01–20           21–85           86–00           1d8+1
Stable          1%              01–05           06–98           99–00           1d3+1
Tavern          2%              01–10           11–98           99–00           1d4+1

On a failed year, you get lower Wealth (by the amount you invested). On a normal year about +.6 wealth (on top of your original investment) on a break out year, depending on the industry it could be as high as +2 wealth (17% is approximately 1 in 6).
This message was last edited by the player at 23:48, Wed 26 Nov 2014.

My twenty levels are:

Debtor
Destitute
Peasant
Trades(wo)man
Wealthy Trades(wo)man
Merchant
Wealthy Merchant
Gentle(wo)man
Wealthy Gentle(wo)man
Knight/Dame
Baronet(ess)
Baron(ess)
Viscount(ess)
Earl/Countess
Marquis/Marchioness
Duke/Duchess
Prince(ss)
Crown Prince(ss)
Consort
Monarch

This is personal wealth and doesn't include corporate or national incomes. It also reflects the historical nature of the game it was designed for.

Your GURPS based system still seems too crunchy for where I want to go, Steelsmiter. It's probably not dissimilar in crunchiness to the system I have at present, but I need to simplify for the sake of my sanity.

I like the sound of this Rat Race game, Lore Guard. It's quite possible that board games will have rules at a suitable level of complexity. I'll see if there's a rule set for it online somewhere, or perhaps you could tell me more.
I like the idea of status symbol purchases that define wealth bands. At higher levels these could be properties and estates which will also generate income.

Thanks both, I'll peruse your posts a little more later, gotta dash for now.

I’ve been looking at a system that requires characters to make Upkeep (Wealth) rolls on a monthly basis. There are a few modifiers and if you make your roll all’s well, but if you fail your roll your Wealth score reduces. If you get a critical success your Wealth score may increase. In that system Wealth and Status are not the same, but Wealth can be used to grease palms and aid your social climbing. Wealth rolls are also made when you want to purchase something, which may or may not reduce your Wealth score, depending on the size of the purchase, and there are alternative ways to improve your Wealth.

I like the simplicity of these fluid systems, it cuts out a lot of bean counting, but...

What worries me with this type of system is that it works well if all the characters have a similar level of Wealth, but the degree of granularity can be a problem. If, for example, you’re rolling Wealth on D100 and all the characters have a wealth between 60 and 80, it works nicely, but if a couple of characters have Wealth of around 6 to 8, they’re not going to be in the game for long, either because they spend their days in debtors prison, or because the players get bored with continually failing rolls and walk. It may realistically reflect a peasant’s life, but it’s not good for the game.

A system that uses this type of roll would need to scale the roll to the PC’s social level, I think, so that all players have a reasonable chance of success at their own level.
I think the modifiers for wealth rolls should be limited, counting modifiers shouldn’t become as onerous as counting cash. I felt that was a difficulty with BESM, there were so many modifiers (in the interests of diversity and realism) that it was all but impossible to keep track of them. They all fed into a single roll, but determining what that roll would be was a mammoth task.
Similarly I think it’s a good idea to avoid large look-up tables. Tables aren’t too bad for FtF games using real books in which you can flick through the pages easily, but I find that on a computer, where you can only access one page at a time, flicking between tables becomes a chore in itself. I’d prefer to have a handful of small tables that will all fit in one screen view, if possible.

Borrowing from En Garde! I’m looking into a system of ‘favours’, where mutual back-scratching can help you climb the greasy pole, and gaining introductions can provide opportunities to toady to people of influence. Charming a wealthy heiress can provide a leg up, as well as over. However, mistresses require a lot of attention...

En Garde! uses the possibility of loans, either from NPC moneylenders or from other PCs, but the interest rates can be usurious and if you fail to pay on time you could have your assets frozen, stripped, or you could go directly to jail.

I like the idea that Wealth might help to buy Status, perhaps including the concept of status symbols and capital purchases. If there are scaled Wealth bands, perhaps the purchase of Capital items will result in dropping a Wealth band, and you can’t actually enjoy the status symbol and use it to gain Status until your Wealth band catches up again?

Above all, the wealth and status rules should provide benefits and consequences that aid game play, but should be simple and easy to implement as a backdrop for adventuring rather than becoming a mathematical game in themselves. I find players fall into two categories: those who avoid maths like the plague, and those who use it so much in RL that they don’t want it in their games as well.

Here’s a first draft of my Wealth mechanic. I’m using a 1D6 roll-under because my current rules of choice for combat use it, so it’s easy for the players to assimilate - probably. It also keeps everyone in the same boat, a 6-point scale rather than a 20 or 100 point spread.

There are twenty Wealth Bands, corresponding to the twenty Status bands. Each band has six levels of expenditure:
1. Capital - Land, Property, equipment.
2. Major - One off or infrequent purchases, replacement materials.
3. Significant - luxuries or indulgences.
4. Everyday - food, drink, clothes, etc.
5. Pocket - trinket purchases.
6. Trivial - money you might throw to a beggar.
You must roll under the degree of expenditure to make a purchase. A natural 6 is an auto fail, a natural 1 is an auto success. Each time you roll an autofail you get a -1 modifier on all subsequent rolls. Each autosuccess gains a +1 modifier. If the only way you can make any purchase is with an autosuccess, you move down a Wealth Band. If the only way you can fail to make any purchase is with an autofail, you move up a band. IC activities might gain or lose a modifier, too.

If your Wealth band is higher than your Status you do not have to make any Wealth rolls, except those linked to increasing your Status. If your Wealth band is below your Status, you have only two choices: you can drop your Status to match your income and try to work your way back up in due course, or you can take out a loan. A loan will allow you to keep living at your current Status and will give you a clean slate, wiping out all the negative modifiers, but it has to be paid off in 1D6 months. Repaying a loan is a Capital expense and if you fail to repay it you drop two wealth levels and nobody will give you a loan to stop it. You can’t take out another loan for a year and a day. You will almost certainly have to drop two Status levels to become financially stable.
You can save up for Capital expenditures by making every purchase for a month, including your upkeep roll, at a chosen negative modifier. You may then use that as a positive modifier on the roll for the Capital purchase at the end of the month. You may save to pay off a loan, too. You can defer such payments over several months and add together the modifiers for each month. eg, if you have three months to pay off a loan, you could take a -2 modifier for the first month and a -1 modifier for each of the next two months and gain a +4modifier to pay off the loan when it is due.

No spreadsheets, just a monthly modifier you can note down. Now I need to figure out something about status symbols to use Wealth to increase Status.