So, I had this idea for totally skill-based game.

Instead of classes, HD, base attack bonus, base saves, etc., everyone just earns 1, 2, or 3 skill points from significant encounters or from finishing quests. Every 5 skill points you SPEND causes you to "level up" but you start at level 0.

You start the game with:

• Ability scores/modifiers as normal
• Race selection and traits as normal
• HP = Con score + size modifier (+2 per size larger than medium -2 per size smaller than medium)
• Equipment as normal
• 5 skill points (you're level 0 until you spend all 5 of this and become level 1)

*You don't gain extra skill points based on Int
*Max skill rank = level, but your class and race may have a bonus to your "effective" rank which grants you bonus abilities at 1st level.


Every level up gives you 10 + Con mod hit points and increases the max skill rank you can have but doesn't give you anything else except those things that have "level" as part of their calculation.

Every time you put a rank in a skill, you would gain a feat or class feature of your choice related to the skill so long as you meet the prerequisites. Many such abilities would still have ranks as prerequisites.

Here is just a short list of examples. It is by no means a complete list:

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ARCANA

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Your Arcana rank is your Caster Level, Spellcraft rank, and Use Magic Device rank for abjuration spells, incantations, extracts, etc.
 -Abjuration spell
 -Metamagic feat

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ATHLETICISM

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Each rank is +1 to STR & DEX checks to perform acrobatic/athletic maneuvers
 -Gain +5-foot to an existing base speed
 -Gain a 15-foot base speed of a new type (Climb, Burrow, Glide, Swim, etc.)
 -Upgrade Burrow speed to allow you to leave tunnels
 -Upgrade Burrow speed to allow you to move at half speed through stronger materials like rock but only while armed with weapons that can break rock or while under the effects of an [earth] spell you cast
 -Upgrade Climb speed to include Brachiation
 -Upgrade Climb speed to function as Spiderclimb
 -Upgrade Glide speed to function as clumsy Fly speed
 -Upgrade clumsy Fly speed to average maneuverability
 -Upgrade average Fly speed to agile maneuverability
 -Permanently affected by Jump spell as supernatural effect
 -Change supernatural speed to extraordinary (GM must rule its possible for you)

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CRAFTING

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Your Craft rank is your Caster Level, Appraise rank, Craft rank and Use Magic Device rank for all magic items and conjuration (creation) spells. Every rank allows you to gain one of the following:
 -Item creation feat
 -Conjuration (creation) spell
 -Transmutation spell that only targets objects and/or constructs


DEFENSE
Rank = Base Reflex saving throw. Also, every 2 ranks grants you +1 dodge AC.
 -Learn Dodge feat or any feat that has Dodge as a prerequisite
 -Learn Monk AC: Converts 2 points of your dodge bonus from this skill to an Insight bonus so it works even when Denied your Dex mod. Can be learned multiple times.
 -Learn Evasion, Improved Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, or Defensive Roll

ENDURANCE
Rank = Base Fortitude saving throw. Also, every rank = +2 hit points.
 -Learn an armor or shield proficiency feat or any feats that have them as prerequisites but don't fall into another skill category
 -Learn Toughness, Endurance, Diehard, Great Fortitude or similar feats
 -Gain resist 5 to one energy type, stackable, max resistance = level x 1.5
 -Gain DR 1/rare weapon or DR2/uncommon weapon or DR3/common weapon, stackable, max DR = level x 1.5
 -Learn Barbarian or Dwarven Defender class features

EVOCATION
Rank = CL & Spellcraft with Evocation spells, Mage Hand, Telekinesis, & any spells with the following descriptors: air, cold, electricity, fire, force, sonic
 -Learn a new spell of the types listed above
 -Learn a new metamagic feat

KNOWLEDGE
Rank = CL & Spellcraft with Divination magic (except Scrying)
 -Learn new divination spell (non-scrying type)
 -Loremaster secrets
 -Scribe Scroll, Spell Mastery, Magus Arcanas

MEDICINE
Conjuration (healing) magic, WIS checks to heal
 -Conjuration (healing) spells
 -Brew Potion, any feat that alters how your healing spells or spell-like abilities work (but not non-healing spells).

MELEE
Rank = BAB with melee weapons
 -Weapon proficiency feats for melee weapons or any feats that have them as prerequisites but don't fall into another skill category
 -Power attack, Vital Strike, Weapon Finesse, Cleave, Great Cleave, etc.

PERCEPTION - Rank = CL & Spellcraft with Divination (Scrying) spells.
 -Learn new Divination (scrying) spell or Darkvision, Scent, Blind Sense, Blind Sight or Tremor Sense spell.
 -Alertness or any spell that has ranks in Perception as a prerequisite but doesn't fall into another category.

PRESENCE
Rank = CL & Spellcraft with mind-affecting Illusions & Enchantment spells.
Rank = Diplomacy, Intimidate & Perform checks.
 -Learn new Illusions or mind-affecting Enchantment spell.
 -Gain Bardic Performance (and all class features dependent upon it) as if you gained 1 level in bard.

RANGED
Rank = BAB with ranged weapons
 -Weapon proficiency feats for ranged and thrown weapons or any feats that have them as prerequisites but don't fall into another skill category
 -Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Point Blank Mastery, Improved Precise Shot, Deadly Precision, etc.

STEALTH
Rank = CL & Spellcraft with non-mind affecting Illusions and bonus to Dexterity checks made to hide, move silently, pick pockets and pick locks.
Rank = Bluff & Disguise checks.
 -Sneak Attack and all feats that have it as a prerequisite but not fall under another category.
 -Rogue talents that require ranks in Stealth, Escape Artist or Sleight of Hand but don't fall into another category.
 -Shadowdancer class features as if you gained 1 level in Shadowdancer.

SURVIVAL
Each rank gives you a +1 bonus to INT, WIS and CHA checks made to recall information about biology, meteorology, geology, geography and navigation, predict weather, forage for food, identify poisonous lifeforms and hazardous terrain and weather and find shelter.
 -Learn a druid that is personal or druid spell that creates, summons or targets animals or plants or a druid spell that manipulates (but doesn't conjure) the weather or elements (air, earth, fire, water).
 -

WILLPOWER
Rank = Base Will saving throw.

ETC...
This message was last edited by the GM at 21:28, Wed 07 June 2023.

Craft; (Blacksmith) may only hire workers to make, blacksmith items, apprentices, other trained blacksmiths. it is easy enough to buy good handles, and grips from ivery carvers, and woodwork folk.

Profession; (craftsman) this person can run the shop of any craft they have, they can hire anyone they need of any craft or profession to work in that shop. they can employ their own wood work journymen in their blacksmith shop.
  As in you could have a blacksmith who really wasn't that good as a blacksmith but runs a good shop. and could take ten on an UNCONTESTED roll to keep the shop running smoothly.

If you considered sailor as a craft, then the captain of a small keelboat or small lake craft could actually be barely able to sail him or herself but could successfully be the captain of a craft in his Difficulty range to take ten on.  If its difficulty is to high he needs a higher skill score for that ship to take ten but doesn't get the disadvantage of unskilled.

I'm playing with the idea that Profession and Craft are the same thing. And the subcategories would just be specialties.

I'd say that Craft is a definite subset of Profession (since a sheepherder doesn't make sheep per se), so I'd be in favor of that, provided that distinction. You appear to already have provisions for Item Creation feats in Craft, so it wouldn't be too hard to switch it over to Profession and specify that the profession must make things to be eligible. The non-crafting professions could benefit from feats not related to Item Creation instead. Like a sailor could get water based feats.

my problem is the idea of profession (magestrate) doesn't make anything.  and truthfully a manager also makes no thing. but if they ar doing there job they make itpossible or those who do to work in a more stable environment.

I just said that, only I used the word sheepherder instead of magistrate.

I think you guys are missing the point here. Craft is used as a noun here, not a verb. Craft as a verb means to make something but craft as a noun means "an art, trade, or occupation requiring special skill" just like profession. The only reason for using the word "craft" over "profession" is purely aesthetic (craft sounds cooler and more archaic). They shouldn't be separate skills by any means whatsoever. I know many d20 games did this but I have no need to split hairs on them.

Now, WHAT your craft is can be purely determined by your selection. Each rank only gives you a "related" ability. What ability you select is up to you.

Example Character using this method...
Wizardy McWizardton
Level 6 Spellcaster
STR 10, CON 10, DEX 14, INT 20, WIS 10, CHA 10
HP: 23 (6d6)
SP: 5/level (30/30 spent)

    ARCANA - OOOOOO
         -Spell (Alarm)
         -Spell (Shield)
         -Feat (Still Spell)
         -Feat (Silent Spell)
         -Spell (Resist Energy)
         -Spell (Protection from Evil)
 ATHLETICS -
     CRAFT - OOOOOO
         -Spell (Mage Armor)
         -Feat (Scribe Scroll)
         -Feat (Brew Potion)
         -Feat (Craft Magic Arms & Armor)
   DEFENSE -
 ENDURANCE -
 EVOCATION - OOOOOO
         -Spell (Magic Missile)
         -Spell (Burning Hands)
         -Spell (Scorching Ray)
         -Spell (Fireball)
 KNOWLEDGE - OOOOOO
         -Feature (Bardic Knowledge)
         -Spell (Detect Magic)
         -Spell (Read Magic)
         -Spell (Detect Thoughts)
         -Spell (Detect Alignment)
         -Spell (Clairvoyance/Clairaudience)
  MEDICINE -
     MELEE -
PERCEPTION -
  PRESENCE - OO
         -Spell (Charm Person)
         -Spell (Cause Fear)
    RANGED -
   STEALTH - OO
         -Spell (Vanish)
         -Spell (Mirror Image)
  SURVIVAL -
 WILLPOWER - OO
         -Feat (Iron Will)
         -Feat (Combat Casting)
         
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:11, Tue 17 Feb 2015.

  it makes a good format to hang my Demi-talent [almost sergeant, lieutenant, captains] & Mundane [almost zero level] player characters & and Mortal-minions NPCs, set up in my campaign area.  And could see this as a class character in it called the Polymath the Heroic class of multi-classes.

I'm sorry, I can't make much sense of that post. Are you trying to say you can use this for a game of yours and you think it's very multiclassy?
This message was last edited by the GM at 04:32, Wed 18 Feb 2015.

Yes... I am familiar with how C-h thinks.  That is more or less what he is saying.  He sees classes as the 'Heroes' of different groups of people.  Roles people tend to look up to (or fear).

He has tried to find a way to allow non-level individuals to progress beyond a the given base.  Why shouldn't a middle aged blacksmith be able to hit better with a hammer than a young apprentice, without having to be made a fighter or warrior for instance.

I think he was indicating your class of this he would call a Polymath and make it a hero of those that don't fit the traditional molds.  But I'm not positive on that, he lost me at that part.  :)

About your Skill Point feats issue.
I see a few options.

1:  Offer it to provide a bonus[rank] to a particular chosen skill.  Bonus ranks do not grant feats themselves, but they do add a bonus to skill checks, and they modify the 'effective' rank for purposes of feat prerequisites.  This might allow a first level character choose a 'feat' only available to Rank 2 characters?

2:  Feat-less ranks: It might allow you to make skill rolls as trained, but not allow the bonuses you normally get with full points.  Might be useful in some cases.  [this might be somehow combined with 1, if you allow choice of a skill you don't have]

3:  Simply make Int bonus and SP bonuses add languages [and literacy status], and potentially allow them to be spent to add weapons/armor to their proficiency list, and otherwise make them more important than just languages typically tend to be made.

Question: if you are stripping classes of their special features and using this system to replace their method of getting features, why start with the classes?

1. That'd just be Skill Focus wouldn't it? +3/+6 to checks but nothing else?

2. Okay, I'm a little lost what you mean here.

3. I think they already add to languages so I simply wouldn't change that. I don't feel the need to make INT more powerful in a world with INT, WIS and CHA-based magic. In a LOW fantasy or SCIFI game, maybe, but not high fantasy. Doesn't seem necessary honestly.

4. Yes. I'm stripping the system down to be classless. I'm thinking ranks in Endurance and Defense can give you bonus hit points for Rogue and Warrior types. HP would just be (CON SCORE/2)*level + whatever you get from feats, features, ranks and buffs. I hate using (Hit Dice + CON mod) for HP since it makes it very difficult for those with <8 CON to have any HP at all.

I still have more work to do on the abilities. I need to make everything "as strong as a feat" and organize them in the correct skill. Possibly add new skills depending. It's a work in progress. I'm open for suggestions. I'm practically begging for them actually...

Sorry; I should have put a better post together, the problem is I started to and ended up putting together a very large post redesigning, my Full Talents; almost the normal heroic class characters, Demi-talents; almost the normal heroic class characters, contained Only in organizations [like sergents, lieutenants, captains, within armies, Mundane; almost zero level characters of first edition. Mortal Minion; an almost mundane of any race that Can have classes. That creats a character that is stunted to the point that allows a player to play any race at first level with a combination of power penalties and crippled powers.

Heroes [full & demi talents] gain class levels through "xp", USUALLY racial dice through age, mundanes and demi-talents when xp is frozen gain advancement [mastery of; Skill, feat, & ability, power] through Faction renown Points (see DnD 5th Ed.) these points are spent in a tree form of advancement each position of the tree a small shopping list of possible, masteries, the points can also be used to  additional steps up the tree or sideways.

To me each class is an arc-type of some part of society.. it IS them only more so almost as if the heroes are lesser saints. What I see as the Polymath Class; in some ways mirrors the mixed bag of Masteries a multiclass gains, so they would to some extent represnt them, but as the gain their masteries in much the same ways as mundanes [except via xp rather than renown.. but I might even allow that but no sideways promotions], I would likely add a bonus if they choose the Feat Mundane Leadership they gain an in command radius of mundane retainers (henchmen) of three leagues rather then the three miles for; compan-masters, aristacrat, warriers, adepts, or the three "hexes" for regular Talents.
This message was last edited by the player at 12:55, Wed 18 Feb 2015.

In reply to C-h Freese (msg # 13):

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude or critical, but I literally cannot understand what you're saying. Loreguard, can you help us out?

In reply to Arkrim (msg # 14):

Sorry for taking so long to get back, the short answer is the ideal as you seem to be stating it seems to work as a class.  Looking at it a different way it seems to work as not really zero levels of my campaign area.  That is less important then the idea you are working on, if you don't understand yet you may figure it out in context.

msg #11  (2) I'm not sure what LoreGuard means either but I wonder if he means, instead of maybe +3 to one feat under a skill, have the option to add something that adds +1 to all items under the skill? He almost sounds a little Jack o Trades, in the description.  like you are able to roll work all or some subset of items of that skill but only at ability score even if untrained, or possibly at a minus if the group you choose is big enough.