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09:44, 29th March 2024 (GMT+0)

DFRPG adjustments?

Posted by NarratorFor group 0
Narrator
GM, 4424 posts
DM says
roll for initiative!
Tue 19 Sep 2017
at 16:20
  • msg #1

DFRPG adjustments?

I am grandfathering in quite a few things. I like the new bard, and some of the ready power ups.
Races, in particular  I am keeping, with the following  caveats;
All catfolk are Sahudese, and races must come out of 250 starting points.
New charactets that follow templates are to follow the new version.

Spells: I like creation spells and I want necromancers to have the ability to make zeds. In 3e, ally group covered how many mooks you could have easily, because ally group was built on the points of the allies, not scaled proportionately to the character as in 4e. I am surprised by the volume of gate related spells, but if the expectation is world hopping, it retroactively makes sense that allies are always present and that enemy and sometimes reputations or duties are out.

Things changing now: no more custom elementals. You need enough wood to build a bonfire in order to conjure a fire elemental and control rolls need be made every effective half hour or they leave/dissipate, AND they need fuel regularly. There are enough varieties in Summoners.
Elementals wear no armor, and carry no backpacks. That would be golems.

Speaking of golems, I have been treating them as valuable property, as suggested in Magic. Signature gear more or less equals ally in points... in the future they will be allies. but custom golems must be justified. Chris has DR 10, but the default DR of a clay golem is 0, and stone golems have only 4. So Chris is wearing layered armor, padded plus scale plus plate or something to that effect and is going to be a little slower, and about 75 lbs heavier.
Narrator
GM, 4427 posts
DM says
roll for initiative!
Tue 19 Sep 2017
at 18:08
  • msg #2

DFRPG adjustments?

Languages: I like having distinct regional common tounges, with Aral being common, and Valdassyan, Shevnian, and Sahudese being separate. I dislike orcish as the common tongue for gobblekin, and here is my view on Ancient: Malga'Mar 's latin and greek could become this, but I have this proto elven language called Eldrich, which most Thaumatological writing is in...it is closer to Elder than Ancient, and currently only Chou-Zhen Mou, Jareth Mooncalled, and Dareos Madrigar speak it, (it is Dark One).

Latin I was looking at as being the liturgical language of the Church of the One True Tripartate God, you know the religion that has goblins in the cathedral and an abbey full of wights and doombrats? That one. It has been used for many occult chronicles, but since this history does not have Constantine converting, the church is only one of many, and even Angels get iffy about who they serve...
Ardenas Barehand
player, 893 posts
Human martial artist with
a few spells on the side.
Tue 19 Sep 2017
at 22:54
  • msg #3

DFRPG adjustments?

Doesn't sound as if players will need to buy the DFRPG book unless they're creating characters, perhaps not then?  I've got PDFs of a few of the old DF books, the ones I've needed, and I'm not very prone to getting everything related to DF/DFRPG, because my own preference is for a bit less "retro" game.  If I ever have time to run my own campaign again, that is...
Oly
player, 928 posts
Badly disfigured face
Rank 1 Guild badge
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 02:05
  • msg #4

DFRPG adjustments?

I have some of the DF output, I prefer GURPS, but will try and get the boxed set so I can play along.
Christine Bjorn
player, 1249 posts
blue haired
mountain elf
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 06:48
  • msg #5

DFRPG adjustments?

In reply to Oly (msg # 4):

Christine, Gareth and Kirpich seem the main character effected. I assume all agreed custom elementals still exist? Also, since Chunky, Kirpichs' ally, was an elemental specifically designed to carry stuff, we will need to work out if he has changed, and if so, how. Can we also go over the stat changes with Chris, especially given he has seen combat several times in the past.
Jareth Mooncalled
player, 1183 posts
Dirty High Elf Sage
HP: 9/9 FP: 9/10
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 07:45
  • msg #6

DFRPG adjustments?

My Hot take:

I'd switch over to DFRPG for the spells, and then adapt spells you need over.  Just try to 'realign' them to the new costs, durations, etc.

I have to read more into the DFRPG to see if I'd allow for Power-Ups and abilities from outside of it (personally).

But off the top I can say I'm not overly impressed with Holy Warriors.

Narrator:
New charactets that follow templates are to follow the new version.

So... are you still allowing characters to be made that aren't from, or that simply "color outside the lines" of, a template?

I'm still not sure what the drawback is to doing that.

quote:
Spells: I like creation spells...

Aside from Create Servant, Create Warrior, Create Animal, Create Mount, and Create Item what are missing that you need?

And note, that with a slight rethinking of Phantom, you can cover all the above spells (except Item).... just not quite as cheaply.

But I can also see importing those spells and adjusting them to align with the DFRPG Spells.

quote:
I want necromancers to have the ability to make zeds.

Honestly... on this one I'd just make it:

Raise Zombie:  Ally (Built on 10% [0.4];  12 or less [x2]; Summonable, +100%; Requires and Uses Dead Bodies, -20%; Minion, +0%; PM, -10%) [2]

Undead Minions:  Allies (Five servitor skeletons or zombies; Built on 10%; 15 or less†; Minion, +0%; PM, -10%) [6], (10 servitors) [7], or (20 servitors) [9]

Necromancers uses the Raise Zombie spell to fill out his ranks, and if he has too many Zombies (more than his Ally group covers) he just starts losing them as they wander off, fall apart, etc.  And of course Costs Fatigue and takes extra time can be added to make the "Raise" spell less character points.

†  This is to determine if his Ally group survives between missions.  Obviously NPCs can have Zs be around as long you like, but PCs need some limitors.

For Elementals I'd just use the Elemental Ally from Summoners.


Alternately, if you want to keep the Raise*, Summon, Command, Turn, Bind spells as skills... then I'd change Summon Spirit to Summon (Spirit) (meaning specialized choosing from Ghosts, Elementals, Demons (Divine Unholy), Angels (Divine Holy), etc), and than do the same with Command (Spirit)†, Entrap Spirits, Repel Spirits, Sense Spirits, and Turn Spirits.  Also change the prereqs for the Elemental versions to their Elements and Divine Holy/Unholy to the Gate college maybe (or honestly I'd leave those as Power Investure, so Divine Spirit folk are the realm of Clerics only).

Have Spirits hang around longer (for free) on Good reaction rolls and then just make a new Reaction Roll every [TIME] interval (half hour?  Base Magic is generally an hour).

Sense (Ghost) would of course sense Incorporeal, including incorporeal Demons.

* Obviously you have add in Raise Zombie.
† The only difference here is to actually allow those types for Command (Spirit) as it's already a specialized spell.

Narrator:
Languages

I'd obviously like to get a list of all the languages...  at some point...  also obviously I think you should keep doing Languages as you have.  I think switching to the simplified DFRPG version would be a waste.


Ardenas Barehand:
Doesn't sound as if players will need to buy the DFRPG book unless they're creating characters, perhaps not then?  I've got PDFs of a few of the old DF books, the ones I've needed, and I'm not very prone to getting everything related to DF/DFRPG, because my own preference is for a bit less "retro" game.  If I ever have time to run my own campaign again, that is...

Not sure I'd call DFRPG a "retro" game.

It has a lot less "Hey we only hack and slash!" vibe than DF does, in fact it calls out going on quests.  However it still wants to simplify town into a 2-dimensional backdrop... but then that's what DF does and it's not like that isn't ignorable.
Ardenas Barehand
player, 894 posts
Human martial artist with
a few spells on the side.
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 08:46
  • msg #7

DFRPG adjustments?

Honestly, my head is about to explode just from reading that last post, Jareth.  It sounds to me as if DFRPG is SJ Games's take on Hero System.  I never did really understand Powers, and it's starting to look like everything in GURPS is going to work like Powers (or Ritual Path Magic, to pick a similar book that came out in 3rd Ed.) -- new rules material is all about "here's how to caculate new [stuff], but we're only going to actually give you four examples, after that you're on your own."

To me, it seems like just a way to shove the behind-the-curtain stuff into the face of the GM and players.  Yes, balance is good, but I like having a big bunch of skills, spells, etc. to choose from without loading all of that work onto the players or GM.  The ability to just pick up the books and *play* is what, in my mind, separated GURPS from Hero System.
Narrator
GM, 4428 posts
DM says
roll for initiative!
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 12:18
  • msg #8

DFRPG adjustments?

In reply to Christine Bjorn (msg # 5):

The mechanical form of Chris's DR and encumberance is all that is being altered. DR was an addable feature using magic. Appendix z, which I now use for golem weights and costs has a base DR per material. You have armor equal to the DR at the signature gear rate, which I may have to calculate but it will be DR 10,the expenditure may cover orichalcum for weight reduction, or even enchantment with lighten.

The divine earth elemental ally is pretty much the same as the one from Heavy Metal 2- tiny and not particularly strong.
No more fists of Grom, I have a list of about 6 elemental types.
There is also a flying fireball elemental type that I will use for cracker and the like.  I know you put in some work to build these, but I'd rather use the standard templates.


As to zombies, I looked at :paid for magery with points, paid for skill with points, paid for casting with FP and had to make a roll, wtf more need you pay?

I could put the 24 hour limit on them, unless you pay points for ally, they fall apart.
Gareth
player, 146 posts
Odd Character
Smokin' Human
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 13:01
  • msg #9

DFRPG adjustments?

In reply to Narrator (msg # 8):

Ok. And Gareths fire imps? he was looking for something small and very cheap to create, cheaper than the existing ones, and smaller possibly...
Christine Bjorn
player, 1250 posts
blue haired
mountain elf
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 13:03
  • msg #10

DFRPG adjustments?

In reply to Gareth (msg # 9):

The flying ones cost considerably more to create from the Summoning books. Is there a way to make them cheaper too?

Kirpich will miss the Clubs...but does the new Ally have the same carrying capacity as Chunky?
This message was last edited by the player at 13:05, Wed 20 Sept 2017.
Narrator
GM, 4433 posts
DM says
roll for initiative!
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 14:39
  • msg #11

DFRPG adjustments?

In reply to Christine Bjorn (msg # 10):

The flying elementals cost 6 rather than 4 points. On the other hand, having one as an ally costs 4 character pts;
 the Talus is here:
https://drive.google.com/file/...Vk/view?usp=drivesdk
Jareth Mooncalled
player, 1184 posts
Dirty High Elf Sage
HP: 9/9 FP: 9/10
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 15:39
  • msg #12

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

Ardenas Barehand:
Honestly, my head is about to explode just from reading that last post, Jareth.  It sounds to me as if DFRPG is SJ Games's take on Hero System.

There are no Elementals, Zombies, etc as allies in DFRPG.  There are no Allies in DFRPG.

I suspect... all that will be in a future expansion book.

My take was to go the DF Summoners book and draw from there.  In Summoners they still have the standard "Raise, Summon, Control, etc" spells, but they also add Elemental, Zombie, Demonic, and Spirit Allies.

quote:
I never did really understand Powers, and it's starting to look like everything in GURPS is going to work like Powers (or Ritual Path Magic, to pick a similar book that came out in 3rd Ed.) -- new rules material is all about "here's how to caculate new [stuff], but we're only going to actually give you four examples, after that you're on your own."

Not even remotely.

I haven't figured out how many spells have been truncated from the list, but my gut says half.  So there is still an awful lot of Spells as Skills to chose from.  Most of the spells gone are ones the PCs (in a DF Game) would never be casting anyway**...

For instance Resurrection is gone from the lists.  Why?  Because PCs can't cast it.  I mean who has 500 FP just lying around?  But it is on the "Services You Can Buy In Town" list.  Which is where I've argued it's needed to be all along.

They just didn't bother to replace it's absence on the Clerical list.

The Clerics take a hit at PI 4, 5, and 6, losing about half the spells they used to have a those levels (so do Druids).  And no, I haven't done a serious enough comparison to figure out why or what (aside from Resurrection which was easy).

But... as I'm the guy behind this thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=151211

I will be.  I will be.



[EDIT]
** I did say most.  For instance we know the Create spells from Illusions are gone as are the Elemental Control, Summon, and Create spells are gone.  And those are fan favorites.

But likewise are gone the Enchantment spells, a bunch of Meta spells (I just looked and Link, Delay, Spell Throwing, etc are gone), etc.
[/EDIT]

quote:
To me, it seems like just a way to shove the behind-the-curtain stuff into the face of the GM and players.

Except it's all explicitly behind the curtain.  None of the abilities in DFRPG have the math shown... which means new GMs are boned for easily figuring out how to do new things.  They'll have to go to the forums and get help or buy all the other books...

quote:
Yes, balance is good, but I like having a big bunch of skills, spells, etc. to choose from without loading all of that work onto the players or GM.

You still have all that.

And GURPS has never been a "pick up and play" system.  Not for the GMs anyway.

DFRPG is a "pick up and play" system, it's all worked out... it's just not quite as expansive as GURPS or DF.

It really is a good "newbies first GURPS" system.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:48, Wed 20 Sept 2017.
Narrator
GM, 4435 posts
DM says
roll for initiative!
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 19:27
  • msg #13

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 12):

Spell throwing stays, as do many others. I had a PC enchanter (Xandalar) who knew the manastone spell (yer basic power item charger) but now he has that 50pt advantage form DF19, and is an npcc due to player loss. I like a lot of Magic and will continue with allies etc.
Kirpich Rockson
player, 636 posts
Earth Cleric
He Rocks!
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 19:50
  • msg #14

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

In reply to Narrator (msg # 13):

So should I work out Chunky as a Talas?
Ardenas Barehand
player, 895 posts
Human martial artist with
a few spells on the side.
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 23:01
  • msg #15

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

Well, Jareth, maybe it's just me -- folks with Autistic Spectrum Disorders like me tend to dislike change (at least if we didn't initiate it).  Along with that, in thirty years, I've only ever actually played GURPS in a long term campaign three times (about a year of once a week each time), not counting Northport, and run a campaign for a few months twice.  I feel somewhat left behind by what seems constant change -- really, I don't think I've been completely comfortable with GURPS since 4th Ed. came out, though if I ignore Powers and all the "framework" stuff it's still pretty much the same game 3rd. Ed. was.

Heck, I don't even like templates all that much, though I will admit that a properly constructed one makes it easier to avoid forgetting stuff during character creation.

But I was very annoyed with Sorcery -- it seems like it's one of a growing number of new books that just assume you have, and fully understand, a book I've never seen (and don't say, on the cover, that they have prerequisites).  RPM makes no sense to me, and nothing based on it does -- and some books don't carry the appropriate warning label that says "you must understand RPM to use this book."

If DFRPG is just a subset of GURPS bundled in with a subset of the DF books, I don't think there's a big issue.  I just tend to be afraid I'm going to have to drop a bunch of cash to buy new rule books to stay in a game I've been really enjoying.
Oly
player, 929 posts
Badly disfigured face
Rank 1 Guild badge
Wed 20 Sep 2017
at 23:13
  • msg #16

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

OK So I now gather that the various DF titles I have gathered are not the same as this new DFRPG Boxed set? I'm starting to feel Ardenas' frustration too.  D&D turned me off with so many adjustments, updates, improvement and other crap you had to buy ... SJ sort of rubbed when we had to buy all new Hard Bound books for 4E ... now we need variations? If it isn't in DF, I'm starting not to care ... I'm tired of "new" just to sell books.
Jareth Mooncalled
player, 1185 posts
Dirty High Elf Sage
HP: 9/9 FP: 9/10
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 01:02
  • msg #17

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

Ardenas Barehand:
Well, Jareth, maybe it's just me -- folks with Autistic Spectrum Disorders like me tend to dislike change (at least if we didn't initiate it).

You must hate D&D.

I do, but for very different reasons.

quote:
But I was very annoyed with Sorcery -- it seems like it's one of a growing number of new books that just assume you have, and fully understand, a book I've never seen (and don't say, on the cover, that they have prerequisites).

Well, no those "requirements" are listed in the introductions.  Just like every other GURPS book, that lists what you 'need' to get the most out of what you are using, or in some cases are required to even really use it.

DF has that:   Basic Set and Magic are needed to properly run DF (and a few other stealth books where assumptions are drawn from but never outright stated - which I hate).

quote:
RPM makes no sense to me, and nothing based on it does -- and some books don't carry the appropriate warning label that says "you must understand RPM to use this book."

What needs that warning though?  The only books I can think of that use RPM, introduced it!

Monster Hunters 'created' RPM, Thaumatology: Ritual Path Magic expanded it... and... that's it?  Is RPM even used anywhere else (aside from Thaumatology which really introduced it, but only it's most skeleton form)?

quote:
If DFRPG is just a subset of GURPS bundled in with a subset of the DF books, I don't think there's a big issue.

That's basically what it is.  It's a trimmed down Basic Set, DF, and Magic, so all you need is DFRPG.  You don't need any other GURPS books.  Warning, there are some changes to things in DF, but so far they have been pretty minor (baring the truncated Cleric and Druid Spell lists).

I expect a DFRPG Power-Ups and more Races and Templates.  Probably an Adventurers 2 book can be squeezed out to fulfill that.

quote:
I just tend to be afraid I'm going to have to drop a bunch of cash to buy new rule books to stay in a game I've been really enjoying.

All you'll need is the templates.  And I can copy those if you ever decide you want to make a Template character.

And the spells list if someone wants to play a caster.



Oly:
OK So I now gather that the various DF titles I have gathered are not the same as this new DFRPG Boxed set?

Correct.  They're similar, but not the same.

It's as though DF were version 1 and DFRPG were version 1.5.  A simplified, streamlined DF.

quote:
SJ sort of rubbed when we had to buy all new Hard Bound books for 4E ...

You only 'had' to buy 4e if you wnated play or run 4e.

quote:
now we need variations? If it isn't in DF, I'm starting not to care ... I'm tired of "new" just to sell books.

This isn't 'just to sell books'.  I get the feeling this is the DF Sean Punch kinda wanted to make all those years ago but didn't have the greenlight from SJG to do so.  Or maybe this is the DF as it's adapted in his (and others) home games.  More tightly focused, redone spells, etc.

I'm half looking at this as 4e Magic 1.9.  Kinda.
Oly
player, 931 posts
Badly disfigured face
Rank 1 Guild badge
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 02:07
  • msg #18

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

OK, That helps... some...
As for buying 4E ... see many people still playing 3e?  I don't.
Shroud
player, 10 posts
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 03:25
  • msg #19

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

You should not be afraid of spending money on a hobby you like on product from a company you like, because that money is going to go to that company so they can continue to make product that you will like. Even if what is out now is not what you want, not supporting it is not supporting them, which means they will not have the resources to make those little project that you care about. Its ok to nitpick, but don't nitpick. If you like GURPS, Buy GURPS, regardless of what it is, because that keeps them afloat. They all float down there, and you can float too! you can float too! YOU CAN FLOAT TOO! YOUCANFLOATTOO! YOUCANFLOATTOO!YOUCANFLOATTOO!YOU CAN FLOAT TOO!!!!!!.
Jareth Mooncalled
player, 1186 posts
Dirty High Elf Sage
HP: 9/9 FP: 9/10
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 04:15
  • msg #20

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

Oly:
As for buying 4E ... see many people still playing 3e?  I don't.

There's a thread every month or so on the GURPS forums with someone asking 3e questions.
Shroud
player, 11 posts
Thu 21 Sep 2017
at 04:29
  • msg #21

Re: DFRPG adjustments?

I've noticed that too, but most of those threads are started by the same person...
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