In reply to Jocelyn Lemru (msg # 773):

I still have the one point from helping Alaric...

This message was deleted by the player at 22:35, Thu 18 Apr 2019.

OK, I will use the one from Alaraic and one of my saved points and give 2 to the Base/Charlene.

Nodwin Zideqick:

When it comes to Charlene, Nodwin will be on the fence.  We seem to be more than capable without her, although it never hurts to have an extra set of hands.  I'll go with the group preference here.

Our combatants are one meat shield (no offense Brodak) and three glass cannons (Mario, Mel, Jocelyn).

I'm not exactly sure where Nodwin fits in... he hasn't done much combat wise yet, same with CLarence.  Jareth is a madman to be rushing into fights (which he does, because... well madman) and is totally unsuited to be anywhere near a fight (I built him as 3/4ths Sage and 1/4th Agent).


So, another meatshield to stand somewhere nearish to Nodwin or our glasscanons isn't remiss.  And it's literally 1 point (from each of us) going to getting Charlene as an Ally.  It's 3 going to Base/Ind Inc.


EXCELLENT!  We won't need to hire a mason after all.... you do have Architecture or Masonry yes*?


* If you don't... don't worry, Jareth can help. He's got them both as defaults.  :P

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 777):

Clarence as built does not really do anything well except, well hold and create light. The last lot of points he used to expand his spell list to create food as well (to go with his pot of cooking), but he is working much more as a utility person at this stage. He has sunbolt, but not at high enough level to really be useful.

Actually, on that note, How much would it cost to change

Small Shield, Heavy DB 1, $40, 4/15 DR/HP, 7 cover DR, 6 lbs
  Buckler Grip  $20, 2 lbs
  No Boss      -$25 -2 lbs
  Lantern Hook, $20, 0.5 lbs (Low Tech Companion, shield options)

for

Kite, Heavy DB 3, $120, 4/21 DR/HP, 9 cover DR, 18 lbs
  Buckler Grip  $20, 2 lbs
  No Boss      -$25 -2 lbs
  Lantern Hook, $20, 0.5 lbs (Low Tech Companion, shield options)

The Heavy flail he currently uses is one of the hardest weapons to use, and he just does not have the points to sink into being able to use it effectively.

In reply to Clarence Montague (msg # 778):

The flail is essentially an iron lantern hanging from a pole. I disagree with making large shields buckler grip only, it is trying to wield a door by using the knob only. Large shields are designed with some kind of forearm strap. Also a buckler works because of the boss- it is where your hand goes. Otherwise you are holding a trash can lid.

If we are looking for a fence as a player, the default form of one is the agent from DF 15.

OOC  I had noticed the same thing Jareth.  Thankfully I have an answer for you.

Nodwin should be pretty decent in a fight.  When I took over the character, I pushed his staff up to a 14.  He was barely using his named weapon, and it seemed silly to carry it and not use it.  Plus, he can enchant it with fire.  And, getting the parry up to a 12 was very desirable.

On top of that, the player before me had pretty much every bit of armor enchanted.  Nodwin should be unexpectedly tough in a fight.  His DR is very respectable, plus he has all the healing spells for staying power.  Having him right next to Brodak wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Outside of that, he doesn't have a ton to do in combat.  He has a missile spell and the pistol crossbow, but neither are super effective at their current skill levels.  He can heal, but he's really under-utilized in that role.  I'm all for having Nodwin step in as our second melee guy.  He should be plenty good enough to guard Brodak's flank and take down a few guys on his own.

As for Charlene, I'm good either way.  Nodwin can do it, but another set of hands wouldn't hurt.

---

Nodwin does not currently have architecture or masonry.  He can probably come up with a decent default, especially if he takes extra time, and has someone with a little education around.  It wouldn't be a bad idea as a growth area though, but I have a few interests for the character....

---

I'm ready to move along whenever.  Sounds like Clarence has a few things to iron out yet.  Happy to make suggestions if you have questions, although Jareth is much more expert at this than I am.

Clarence Montague:

The Heavy flail he currently uses is one of the hardest weapons to use, and he just does not have the points to sink into being able to use it effectively.

Wait, you have a two-handed weapon and a shield?

And look at the Flail like this, for the -1 to skill (because you'll be 'laging' one skill level behind any one else who spent the same number of points) your foes are at -2 to block and -4 to parry, and specific weapons cannot parry at all.

It's far, far better than a non-flail guy using a Deceptive Attack (except for the foes who dodge).





Not quite... but yeah.  There are styles of large shields that were bucklers, but they also used a guige.

They are... cumbersome at best.  They add literally nothing of value to using a shield this way rather than 'strapped' to the arm.  In fact, I'd argue they make the shield's use a bit more difficult (call it -1).  They're also pretty much only the Viking round shield, just really big and heavy.

quote:

Large shields are designed with some kind of forearm strap.

Also, what GURPS calls a 'large shield' the rest of the world generally calls a tower shield (or scutum).  They are not used like a buckler.

They only buckler large shield I'd call a 'buckler large shield', is the Viking round shield with the guige... and the guige is only there so the viking can let it hang when he's not using it (did I mention they are bloody heavy?) and get choked out by it when some nutter grabs his shield and jerks it around behind him.

quote:

Also a buckler works because of the boss- it is where your hand goes. Otherwise you are holding a trash can lid.

Not true, and certainly not by GURPS rules.  I've seen plenty of 'bucklers' without a boss.  They're just a little different, and tend to be small shields.

Why?  Because the boss leaves room for the hand to be closer in and centered on the shield, this lets the shield's center of gravity hang centered on the hand.  Conversely the scottish targe is light enough you can get away with the center of gravity being an inch out off of your fist (a targe is a small shield by GURPS standards and often foregoes a boss).

Look up Viking round shields... every single one that is a buckler (and thus accurate) has a boss.  Because otherwise it's a bitch to weild (it's a medium shield).  The only ones you'll see without a boss are meant to be strapped to the arm (and thus aren't really Viking round shields).


TL/DR:  Bosses aren't really necessary, not by RAW GURPS rules certainly (as per GURPS 4th Low-Tech Companion 2 Weapons and Warriors pg 20), and not really by reality (it's a useage thing, call it the martial style as to whether a buckler would have boss or not, but it's damnably prevalent).
This message was last edited by the player at 01:57, Fri 12 Apr 2019.

Excellent!  I figured being a staff wielder Nodwin was built as a caster primary and just hadn't gotten to the good stuff yet (and didn't have a lot of healing to do so far in our scrapes).

And yeah, then we can stick Charlene with either Jocelyn, Mario, or Mel (or all three).  Clarence sounds like he's going an odd "I'm not a Cleric" build, which is cool, but being spread out will leave him unfocused (I should know, that's Jareth's problem, Ten of All Trades, master of none).

quote:

Nodwin does not currently have architecture or masonry.  He can probably come up with a decent default, especially if he takes extra time, and has someone with a little education around.

Jareth has them both at 11 (defaulted).  So as long as we're taking Extra Time (and I don't flub the roll) I can pretty easily give a Complimentary bonus of +1.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:58, Fri 12 Apr 2019.

In reply to Jareth Mooncalled (msg # 782):

Hmm, bear in mind the shield in question is actually a kite shield, not a tower shield, and the modification does not remove the straps, but adds an extra grip, so it can be used as either. Kite shields, by my reading of history, often did not have a boss, but used a kind of brace that the arm could slide into quickly, as they were meant for mounted combat. As such, the hand sometimes was needed for the reins, so the shield would be 'holstered' on the horse when not in use. That was what I had in mind, anyway. But I appreciate that such a large shield would be difficult to wield one-handed. He has not been using them both at the same time, making his current weapon configuration even less attractive. A shield with the lantern hanging off it would serve the same purpose, and be better defensively.

While the flail might sound good, Jareth, I don't think he has hit anyone with it for ages! Despite several attempts...

With the fence, I was also looking at someone that had some artificer skills to look after the base at the same time.

Kites should be Medium Shields by GURPS standards.  The coverage is reduced and needs to be 'made up for' with mobility (ie skill).

quote:

Kite shields, by my reading of history, often did not have a boss..

No they didn't, because they're a 'strapped' shield (and not be bashed up on foes).  In this case yeah, many had both types of grips, or just loose leather strapping that could be wound up in one hand (taking a Ready maneuver) and be used like a Buckler.

Keep in mind, Shield (Regular), Buckler, and Shield (Guige) are all different skills and default to one another at -2.  So you might want to pick one and stick with it.

quote:

While the flail might sound good, Jareth, I don't think he has hit anyone with it for ages! Despite several attempts...

If you wanted to go "Torch and Board" you might ask if you can switch the Two-Handed Flail skill to regular Flail skill.  You'll lose 2 points of damage and free up 2 pounds of weight.  And could still have a lantern on a shtick (just a shorter shtick).

You kinda have to look at your skill level.  Would a +1 to hit be of greater value than your enemies losing that defense penalty.  I think (if I'm recalling correctly) the entire point of most Torchbearer's builds are either they stand there All-Out Attacking and smashing foes with decent damage output while a "hero" is there to throw a defense their way or they equip their shield and stand around blocking for the casters.

They weren't designed around balanced fighting.  So... yeah, you might need to redesign a bit to be a balanced fighter.

quote:

A shield with the lantern hanging off it would serve the same purpose, and be better defensively.

Truth... you could also have both!  A lantern shield and a lantern flail!  Twice the light!  Twice the chance of spilling oil all over and getting lit on fire!

OOC: FWIW, despite my recent (in game time) excursion into the "glass" side of Jareth's "glass cannon" description, I actually carry a staff as well as my bow, and have good skill with it.

You haven't seen me use it much because it's so much cooler (and more efficient) to drop things at a distance with arrows I don't have to replace -- but if I have literally two seconds to see an unavoidable melee coming up I can sling my bow (or drop it to save a second, but Mario hates doing that), ready my staff, and wade in quite competently.

Skill advances go into bow because Archer -- but skill 15 with a staff isn't useless in melee.

In reply to Mario Crowfoot (msg # 785):

Clarence pretty much was limited to using the passive defense bonus of the shield with the lantern pole and shield.

https://drive.google.com/file/...nM/view?usp=drivesdk

In reply to Narrator (msg # 786):

Passive defence bonus? Isn't that something removed after 3rd Ed?

yeah, it's just called DB now, (defense bonus) from shields. according to the shield's size.

This message was deleted by the player at 22:32, Thu 18 Apr 2019.

In reply to Nodwin Zideqick (msg # 789):

You all head back to the region of Junior House.

I am treating Base like a leveled perk. Anyone with higher levels has a better quality joint- 1 point gets you a run down status-2 room, 2 points gets you status -1, 3 points gets you a respectable looking middle class house and so on.

This message was deleted by the player at 22:33, Thu 18 Apr 2019.

In reply to Narrator (msg # 790):

OOC - Can we get some idea of what we have put into the Base?
I think Brodak is in for 1
I think Jocelyn is in for 2
I think Mellarill was in for 1...

This message was deleted by the player at 22:33, Thu 18 Apr 2019.

OOC: Mario has

2 Base
1 Upkeep (independent income)
1 Charlene as Ally

In reply to Mario Crowfoot (msg # 794):

Clarence will put 1 point into Spidey as ally for now...

Looks like Jocelyn has a point in No Hassles....  but she just put one each into Base and Charlene...

The problem with this is that this is a 10 point base... not a series of 1-3 point individual rooms that are loosely joined together in collective that might, maybe add up to 10 points*...

You'll get a series of "2 points into base and 1 into Ind Inc" which will leave us with a 16 point base...  and 8 in Ind Inc which does not pay for it.

That's why I suggested listing it as "4 points in Junior's Base and stuff", if everyone piles in that amount (4 points) everything gets paid for at the previously required level (10 point Base, 10 Ind Inc, 8 points for Charlene as an Ally).



* Unless that's what it is, in which case, sure.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:02, Thu 18 Apr 2019.

Did he write down how much anywhere?  Because the thread chatter about it was just that, as far as I can tell.  I know gwythaint told me there wasn't any need (at the time) for money to be put into the Junior House, but I've been setting a share aside for the house the last two payouts.

We have $276 in the house kitty, which is why I'm looking at cost cutting methods...


Things needed for the House:  Minor repairs, keys, locks, wall repair work in the sewer/basement level, and then... well 'vanity' projects.  Upgrading the gates into doors in the catchment, upgrading the gates into doors in the sub-sub-basement, putting in bars around the Bone Gate (to stop/discourage) future extra large visitors, hiring/bribing the next Sewer Worker assigned to our maintenance area, etc.  Getting half-assed decent furniture in the Junior house, getting a decentish setup in the sub-sub-basement...

Note, what I call the basement is the singular room under the 'main' apartment that gives access to the catchment tunnel.  I refer to the catchment as the 'sub-basement', and then the area across the main and then down where the cult was as our 'sub-sub-basement' (which I still need to go and bribe into obscurity).


Should I start a Private Thread with all of you to hash this stuff out in, instead of taking up the Adventure thread with it?


Alright, Nodwin is two points in, Mario is a full four points (so his share is paid off), Jocelyn is 2 points in, Jareth has 2 point in (and I'm looking at making it 4 this time), I can't remember Mel and Brodak's contribution level at the moment (and I'm doing 12 hour shifts so no time to go hunting)... so in just 3 'adventures' we halfway paid it off.


That means no extra taxes are charged to you for adventuring in the Undercity.


That's how it was working.  A bit at a time until done.  Keep in mind, IC we've only had the residence for 3 days, so we've still got time to finish paying off the character points and getting stuff set up and etc.