Well, having not started yet, I really can't comment much here; I've done a little bit of back-reading before I submitted a character, though, and there was enough to interest me, at least...and like Tindy said, a fight is no time to stop role-playing!


Overall, I agree with Yesil's comment from when you asked this before - people who want fast combat should probably not be playing AD&D.  Posting rates can be tricky, though, and since you've asked twice, I gather it's been a problem for somebody.

The only thing that comes to mind might be to get a kind of "standard procedure" from players who are likely to be gone, or who (as I gather is the case with Yesil) have established RL patterns that keep them to a slower rate.  Combat is on the one hand a very touchy time where people can get badly hurt, but it's also usually kind of straight forward - only so many things you can do.  If people offer some basic parameters - like, do they go for the biggest bad-guy first, or try to cut down support types?  How many HP do they lose before they back off the front lines?  How badly does another PC have to be hurt before they take a round to Cure Wounds on them?  Etc., as applicable.

But it's definitely an imperfect suggestion.  I was in one game where the GM asked for that kind of setup, but it never came up that he had to use it, so I haven't ever seen how well it actually works.  In the kind of broad sense it was asked for in that game, it had sounded problematic to me, but shorter term might be feasible.  (So Yesil, say, could post her thoughts on the next couple of rounds, when she has the time to post - given a few "if-then"s, and perhaps queing up a quick series of attack/damage rolls, she could probably give you a good enough idea what she'd do that she doesn't have to stand around doing nothing, as seems very out of character for Yesil, but the whole combat doesn't have to wait, and it's not just you NPCing her.)  Likewise anybody else who anticipates being gone for a while during a battle, whether they're just really busy or going on a trip or whatever.  'Course, it won't apply if a fight breaks out after they leave, but it might help things.

(Or, there's the Wand of Fireballs suggestion.  Excellent time-saving devices, those.  Much more effective than a Personal Organizer.)


Um, no, I sure didn't figure it out, but I had a fantas...tic...time...?  Er.  Well, OK, so speaking entirely as somebody who wasn't there, but who DID just spend a pleasant hour looking over some of it...

Generally speaking, I don't like it.  I think a key difference between a GM running the badguys, and PCs running badguys, is that...well, it's understood that a GM could just squash the players at any moment, so it's too easy to just overwhelm and kill them.  So a GM intrinsically has a different goal: To create a challenge.  Players tend to assume more equal footing, and go into it with intent to kill - even when they're given "GM Resources" as NPCs.  Having looked over much of the other game setup, I'm surprised it worked as well as it did, but it looks like it did.  (But here again, that's an impression based on a whole lot of not having been part of it, so take it as it's worth.)

Much of that seems, to me, to go to Diaminthe, especially, who made a point of keeping in mind that he was playing an NPC, and running him as such.  I think that helped, and one of his comments suggested that you'd thought about this and told them from the beginning that they were there to provide challenge, and not to just squish the players.  All three of them played very well, in terms of...well, of playing bad guys, with their own in-fighting, and not just focusing on the most efficient way to kill the PCs, and I love the Fog-Of-War application between them.  Since Lugan said he was really doing his best to kill them, I think the FoW, and that they were all good enough players to keep up the pre-arranged in-fighting, made the rest of the difference...I saw the comments from both Diaminthe and Robin saying that if they'd been doing it, it would have been very one-sided, and I tend to agree.  If almost any one person had been coordinating all of the Moathouse's forces with the specific intention of killing the PCs, I think they were badly outmatched.  Which, on the one hand, is a definite compliment to you on the setup, and to them on their playing; on the other hand, it was also a big risk.  I think if they had all played like Lugan (very well indeed, but still really trying to kill the PCs), it would have gone a lot worse - you can see some things Diaminthe did to slow it down, like not letting Lugan place his bodyguard-ogre for best effect.  So I think it was well done, but also very lucky.  Plus, it looks like the PCs were smart, and that always helps. grin

I think if I knew 3.5 better, I'd have a fun time trying to figure out the back-and-forth conversions you did, but...I don't, so I'll take your word for those.  It was definitely an interesting trick to keep things feeling a little bit strange, and to have the bad guys end up with unexpected abilities...

The only thing that struck me wrong, which isn't much to do, actually, with the PC-vs-PC aspect, was the Entice Gift spell's effect.  As I read the spell posted when it was cast, I don't see that he'd have walked blindly past a rampaging Ogre, any more than, as in the spell description, he'd have walked into an open pit.  It seemed to me that the evident dangers between him and the one he had the sudden urge to give his sword to would have counted under its rule of being unable to fulfil the brief geas, and the spell should have been wasted.  From the fact that he posted the description, I'm assuming that's from one of the non-Core books, which I think you had said you weren't familiar with, so I do see that you had to decide pretty quickly without much information; It wasn't an unreasonable ruling, just the only place that really felt to me like I'd have done it differently, you know, if I was DMing, which, of course, I'm not. grin

So, anyway, that's probably more than enough rambling from me about a situation I wasn't even in...I just had time today, and wound up having Thoughts, and that's never a good combination. grin
This message was last edited by the player at 14:46, Thu 04 Oct 2007.

I enjoyed the living hell out of it.  The fighting actually increased role-playing in some instances, so there it is.



I agree with Iviana: The system is made with slow combat.  On the other hand, I've seen people try various tricks (a pool of dice throws made for combat, one roll per combat for initiative, averaged spell effects...) most of them detract from the chaos of combat, which is part of the flavor.

Hey guys thanks for the feedback especially Ronalt who spent loads of RL time incapable for doing anything except plan revenge (still waiting for the arrows in my back).

The reason it worked so well is that the other players really had fun trying to overcome the party. There was only one time when I was held up waiting for a post, whereas there were many times I held things up... Something I need to work on next fight.

Glad you all enjoyed it.

And Iviana thanks for the feedback! Just had to respond to some of your comments.



After I set the situation up I started to get concerned that I had overcooked the bad guys.  The original module did not have Diamenthe or Lugan, both powerful character.  Or too many guards with class levels...

The things I put in place to balance it out were the fog of war and the personal intrigues.  As Robin said you couldn't have scripted Diamenthe offering his assailant to bring up the rear.

Also I decided at last minute to add the second party Kalador, Rolf, Elmo and Shaddowfoot^rip and really proved decisive delaying Lugan long enough to make the attacks happen in three waves. Also they caused enough confusion with Diamenthe that it gave him excuses for not coming to Lareth's rescue too quickly.

Tindo's inspired instruction to the gnoll along with Lareth's slow realisation that it was charmed was something that I could never have scripted.  Lareth would have killed it straight off if I had been NPCing him. (Foo Foo Trixibell is the name of one of Bob Geldof's daughters btw).

If Lareth had escaped and joined with Diamenthe it could have gone very badly for the party. But then Diamenthe might have killed Lareth in his weakened state....



I may have misread this one however it was Diamenthe's only real chance! Drake failed his save spectacularly.  Even so I thought the party might get to him in time to stop him from dying.  Lugan turned up probably a couple of rounds too soon for that. C'est la vie (or not as it turned out).

His player had been thinking about dropping out though he didn't tell me before this happened.  I guess I just gave him one more reason. But it should serve as a heads up that I am not against player mortality and with this game getting someone resurrected might be hard.....

I'm not sure if I would try and repeat it, it was just good timing that I knew three very good roleplayers scratching around for something a bit different. We'll see how the game progresses and if there is a similar siege situation I might go for it.  I don't think it would work too well in other situations...

I was a bit worried about how the two party experiment would work out. I had two concerns.

First, that the bad guys had too many resources and would be far too strong a challenge for the good guys. Fortunately, a mixture of luck, good management by the DM and good roleplaying on both sides meant that the bad guys didn't fully coordinate their attacks and that disaster didn't happen.

Second, I was worried that playing first edition rules for one party and 3rd edition for the other wasn't exactly a level playing field.

However, it all worked out OK in the end (apart from Drake, of course) so, as they say, all's well that ends well. Congratulations to all of you.  :o)

How exactly did you calculate mechanical crosses such as AC and TACO > Attack?

I am just happy their were no casters some spells in 3e are just nasty for these intents and purposes.

AC and THACO were easy. AC0 is essentially AC20 in 3.5...

The magics and there were some, were much more interesting (effect, durations etc.).  But the main difference was the number of spells mages/wizards are allowed and that did concern me.  However Diamenthe was out of the fight too quickly for that to matter.  Some of his defensive spells were in effect but again they played little part once his internal foes set about him.

But basically what I did was look for the nearest equivalent 1st ed spell and use that.

Lareth for some reason preferred to melee than cast spells and his bugbears really sucked which helped you guys a lot..

The biggest danger would have been if Daimenthe had turned up while the party was still split by the darkness and silence spells.  That was quite an effective tactic by Lareth and he would have escaped if Tindo's gnoll hadn't delayed him.

Robin was the only Lurker in both games as they went on and kept me sane on more than one occasion.

Overall I had a blast!!

I liked that part of it a lot, actually.  Well, I mean, maybe not the being too powerful part, per se; they had a definitely overwhelming force, if they hadn't kept to their infighting so well.  But the general idea of changing the module a bit here and there is great.  I've only played the PC game of ToEE, and I don't know how true it was to the original, but it's one of the most famous / best known modules around...so out of a bunch of AD&D players, it's a good bet some of them are at least passingly familiar with it.  No good when people can walk into a hallway and say, "Oh, I check the third column on the left for secret compartments.  Just on the off chance that there's a Potion of ESP and a +2 Longsword in there."  Change is Good.

But, yeah, adding in high-powered enemies while keeping all of the original ones still there, is definitely a tricky balance...but it does look like you had a good sense of what the party could handle, and some good fallbacks in place to balance things out...



Well, of course, technically, you can.  It's the kind of thing that pops up in a module sometimes with comments like, "If things are going too badly for the party, remember that the Sergeant is really working for Lugash, who's been thinking of changing allegiances.  Things going too well for Diaminthe here would really upset his chance to do that, so a well-timed betrayal from the Sergeant might help your PCs get out alive if the dice turn against them..."  Or something.

But then it's, you know, scripted, and if you do that too much, it starts to feel like Deux Ex Machina, and it's certainly not something you'll be talking about ten years later, while this might just be.  It's functional, but not as cool.

That's another one that impressed me with Diamenthe, though.  Seeing an NPC offered a chance to act like somebody with their own mind and preservation instincts is a rare thing in AD&D...grin


That's a good point, though.  It's hard for the GM to sort out exactly who can determine what how quickly, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for a mage to have recognized that faster...the fact that he didn't was great (just along with his illusory ogre, with the specific request not to give it away too soon...if he'd only known how little he needed to worry about that!  Hehe)

And, yes, Tindy's careful instruction was brilliant..



Hehe...c'est la morte, maybe?  That does all make sense - like I said, the ruling didn't seem unreasonable, even knowing I don't have all the information.  (Don't think I didn't notice all those Deleted For Security Reasons posts! Hehe...)  It just seemed to me that an ogre (or even just some guy intent on killing you) and a pit are not incomparable as obstacles.


OK, so along with Tindy's Wand of Fireballs, we should put in a request for about, um...tappity tap tap, er, two million or so experience points for our Cleric?

That doesn't seem like an unreasonable request...hehe...

A yes the save to say if I hadn't have done that you wouldn't have had access :)

I could live with that! :P

The whole setup was great. I didn't have a clue that there was actually people in control of the NPCs.

Maybe if you can identify Item #9...

(Er...or is that too obscure?  If anyone was wondering if I'm old enough to be in an adult game somewhere - now you know. sigh)

So getting back to the important stuff
What treasure did we get and who gets it?
Has it been all identified?

Given you made a strategic withdrawal, you did not spend much time searching.  Tindo retrieved and identified the following:

cloak of resistance +1 - Tindo took this
composite long bow +1
elven chain mail
Longsword +1 from the priest
Longsword +2 from fighter
A +2 shield

Also Vestan retrieved two of the explosive bombs which Burne is attempting to replicate.

There was no other loot reported..

Dibs on the nice shiny sword from the fighter (Longsword +2)
Next the composite Longbow if no one else can use it.

The shield is about all thats useful for me.

unfortunately Yesil probably won't use any of the stuff... Tindo's already grabbed the only thing she can use. Although Markus is still around, he will be leaving the group.  Vestan is out of the picture unless you really make a big push to recover an NPC....

The store will struggle to buy any of these items unless you accept a credit note from them and your previous dealings suggest you would not get market value.

So I guess that leaves Ronalt and Arek to pick up the spoils. Or perhaps offer to lend some to you potential new companions Rolf and Kalador?

Ronalt, the elven chain would not increase your protection but it is lighter and quieter (read improved chance of surprise when scouting.)

I feel a little guilty taking 3 items.
Yesil uses what sort of armour now?

The loan of the enchanted sword to one of the newcomers with a pledge would work.

Share the spoils I say, with or without some sort of guarentee. After all, the better equipped the spear carriers, the longer we're all likely to survive.
I will officially claim the shield for Arek though unless somebody else can come up with a REALLY good reason why they should have it instead.

I'd love a longsword.  Don't think I'll be jumping on the idea of a pledge, however.

"Pledge" just doesn't seem right does it?
Now a Geas on the other hand....    ;)

Give me a couple of levels and I will se what I can do ;)

Pledge, geas, promise, blood oath. Which one?
Giving a magic blade without something as security seems a little too generous considering the blood split to get it.

Maybe if he gives you his drivers license and a 100gp security deposit...

A security deposit... there's an idea.

Trust that he will act in your best interests if you hand him the blade, though.  You could also simply demand his services in exchange for the blade.

Or we can just sell it if he dos not want to swear loyalty and use the money to hire some NPC warriors :P

Noooooooooooooo!!!