...and now my main home computer has decided to glitch. I'll try for an update on one of my backups in about 12 hours from now. [Private to Sven Arnoff: If things get really desperate, I might even try plugging in yours and updating from that! Shirley's got a spare laptop, but since I can't read that chicken scratching she calls a written language...]

It was my uncle who died after several years battling prostate cancer. Given that three out of four grandparents have also had cancer (two lost that fight), so signs aren't good for the rest of us... :(
My mother and sister had lumps removed from their breast earlier in the year too (proved not to be cancerous thankfully).

What they said. We'll be thinking of you

Nope, update not likely tonight. One backup computer (the kids) moves at the speed of a glacier, and the other has barely any software installed. (Note to self. FIX!!!)

A while back I lived in England for a couple of years. I went along to the local doctor to get checked for skin cancer - all clear, thanks, but he said something that I have remembered ever since. He said most people today will either die from cancer or heart attack, because we've just about found cures for everything else. (Sure, there are still exceptions but, generally, those are the main killers today.)

That really put things into perspective for me.

Doesn't make it any easier to deal with the grief though.

I send my condolences, too.

And FINALLY got the update done. Damn that's a big one too!
So, who's feeling bored now? :p

I rolled a 15 to hit and STILL missed?

Also, Brother Yew, you're fired. You did damage to us and 0 to the enemy.

...he must be a spy for the Temple! :P

You're attacking somebody in plate mail and carrying a shield. That's an AC of 2 right there.
At your level you've got a Thac0 of 20, which means you need an unmodified 18 to hit. Strength helps, but not enough in this case.
And then there's the Weapon vs Armour modifier - that would be a -2 for a long sword against plate and shield, so that makes it a 20 that's needed.
And of course there's always magic and high Dex on the defenders part which could make it even harder!

Note that it's only thanks to that weapon vs armour modifier that Luthien escaped injury from Brother Yew's first bolt of the round. Same goes for Rolf.

From a tactical point of view, having our fighters blocking that doorway is a disaster. We have the numbers on the people in the room in front of us (even with the reinforcements), but we're blocking the doorway. Umpteen people in that room can spread out and attack with melee or missile weapons, and our people that aren't in the front row have to fire through our fighters - hitting them at the moment.

Either move into the room and pull back and let them come through into the same situation so that we can attack them from the sides.

Tell 'em that IC. :)

Gents, I think shit just got *real*.

Gwythe, you are absolutely correct. I'm writing a post IC now to that effect. There's a spce for Ron to step on the Axeman's West, and Luthien can take the East. There's the door in Luthiens way, but that rectangle is drawn over 10' and there's no way that's real. Plus that's how you win a bloody fight - you step in and push people!

So if Ron and Luthien flank him he will go down - I won't need to help Ron at least.

Sven will then run past to meet the South-Western sword & shield fighter.

As for the reinforcements, if all the magical firepower in that room can't stop them then at least the Prince can run down and hold the door with his nifty longspear if there's at least one person meaty enought to stand in the actual doorway.

That's my take, but Sven will only have an opinion about Ron and Luthien right now.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:49, Sun 21 Sept 2014.

In reply to Luthien (msg # 886):

Curses, foiled again.  :o(

<Shuffles off to check rule book>

So what are the rules for a crossbowman in the second rank of melee to shoot an enemy in the opposing ranks? DMG page 63(?), which means probability of 'targeting' someone on either side is based on ratio of numbers of combatants on either side? Do only those in the enemy's front rank count in that calculation? Does that mean there is zero chance of shooting someone beyond the enemy's front rank?

True, Ronalt may be able to move into that space, but that assumes he gets a low initiative.
Also, in the last two rounds Ronalt has taken nearly 70% of hit total hit points in damage in the last two rounds, most of that in the last round. Chances are good that another couple of hits, maybe even just one, will drop him like a stone.

In reply to Brother Yew (msg # 891):

I assigned a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the right target for PCs (axeman the target, equal chances of hitting either Ronalt or Luthien, as per page 63 of the DMG). Shooting right through melee I judged as being effectively impossible (height of the shooters being less than the three/four battling it out in the doorway - this is one reason why Amathaon climbed the wall).
The odds were basically the same for for the opposition crossbowmen, but once the last spearman went down Ronalt was left wide open for the dart throwers attacks (but darts against chainmail? Not the best of chances at any time).

Over at the rearguard, I didn't bother with any chance for the crossbowmen to hit their own people - melee hadn't been joined, and they're clearly acting as a well drilled team (front rank staying out of the way of the crossbows, at least for the moment).

Hmm, I missed the non-proficiency penalty...
I also missed the damage bonus for the magic of the crossbow, AND Yew's monkly damage bonus of 1/2 a point per level.
That really could have been a disaster!!!

In reply to GM the Third (msg # 893):

Yew's THAC0 17 at short range includes +3 dexterity adjustment, +1 magic weapon and -3 non-proficiency penalty. I haven't factored in weapon vs armour class to hit adjustments.

I have included damage bonus of +1 for the magic crossbow but not the extra +2 damage for 1/2hp per monk level.

Seems a bit strange that Yew's high dexterity doesn't help him avoid accidentally shooting his allies, actually makes it more likely that his shot will find the weak spot in his friend's armour and that his monk training in weapons and anatomy makes it more likely that when he accidentally shoots his friend in the back it would hit a more vital spot and therefore do more damage.  :o(

Yeah, that's why I didn't factor that in. Didn't forget about it at all..... ;)

Friendly fire is always awkward to model in games.

Me I say 'its random' and roll a die: usually six sided, and say '1..n' you get your target, the other numbers are the other people in combat. And I only roll base damage.

That's 'totally arbitary', but I've done a load of LARPing, and its really hard shooting into combat. My son is an archer (wins competitions and can reliably put an arrow into a playing card at 20m ) and LARPs as well. We talk about this quite a bit (how to model it in games) Mostly in the chaos of battle, people get shot by their friends if you shoot into combat.

Well, Ron is in a tough spot, if his char can step back and swap with Sven that would be good but I still put him at beter odds than Luthien who will drop on the first hit... Sven should be there instead, but that's hindsight.

It's almost obligatory for Ronalt to end up unconscious or paralysed or prisoner at the end of every combat, isn't it?  ;o)

In reply to Iviana (msg # 896):

And yet Legolas never seems to have any trouble hitting his target at all!  LOL

Maybe it would make more sense to treat the other combatants as 'cover' instead. DMG p64 indicates a +2 AC bonus for 25% cover, +4 for 50% cover, +7 for 75% cover and +10 for 90% cover.

Perhaps say one row of combatants provides 50% cover (+4 AC) for those behind, two rows provides 75% cover (+7 AC) and three or more rows provides 90% cover (+10 AC).

An exceptionally skilled archer can have a reasonable chance to hit a target behind cover but less skilled archers have less chance.

Roll to hit the intended target. If you hit the target's adjusted AC that's the end of it. But if you missed, then roll randomly to see which other combatant was the 'cover' that you accidentally hit instead. Then check your 'to hit' roll against their AC (with no bonuses for cover, because you've already decided what the arrow actually hit) to see if there was any damage done.

In reply to Brother Yew (msg # 899):

If Yew was significantly taller than those in front of him, I'd certainly consider the cover idea - in fact it's exactly how I was going to handle Amathaon if he'd thrown a dagger from up the wall (turns out he'd need an impossible roll to his due to the multitude of penalties to hit - range, cover, fighting while on a wall, weapon vs armour mods).
However, both Yew and (surprise, surprise) Haldan are rather shorter than the humans dancing about in the front rank. Oh well....

In reply to Brother Yew (msg # 899):

I like your thought process -- DnD presents a unique challenge in making a complex phenomenon into a couple of dice rolls.

*GASP!*

Sven has THOUGHTS!!!????  :-O

Merely echoes in the chasm...

As nice as OOC chit chat is, IC posts are so much better. ;)

I was thinking more about the general situation of shooting into melee to set up some basic rules to start from, then move on later to adjustments like different size combatants and restricted angles of fire such as doorways.

For bigger or smaller combatants perhaps modify by +2 or -2, respectively, for each rank according to relative sizes.

For restricted angles of fire, consider how much of the available width is obstructed by the bodies involved. A human fighter is maybe 24 inches wide at the shoulders, say the same at the waist (including arms), about 6 inches per leg, about 12 inches at the head (in helmet). Standard dungeon doorway is what, 8ft tall by 5ft wide? So Ronalt and Luthien's bodies occupy 80% of that width at Yew's eye height but their legs only occupy 40-50% of that width at Haldan's eye height if he ducks down a bit to aim between all those long legs.

Don't get hung up about all that movement in combat making it hard to pick a gap to shoot through. The percentage of area that is obstructed doesn't actually change and the dice-roller takes care of the random element, i.e. whether or not there is an obstruction in the way or not at the moment that the shot is fired.

So for Yew that would give the axeman about +7 AC cover. For Haldan the axeman would only have about +4 AC cover. Critical failure (rolling a natural 1 to hit?) might have rather different consequences, of course, but that's just another interesting role-play opportunity.  ;o)

Targets in successive ranks would get their AC improved by cover in the same progression as for those basic cover percentages. i.e. +4, +7, +10, +13?

By the way, I'm not actually suggesting that the rules should be changed in this fight. This one has just highlighted something in the rules that doesn't make much sense and I'm just exploring another option that makes more sense ... well, to me it does. Maybe if it is considered a better system it might be adopted as a new house rule in future. Or maybe not.