Sorry, been busy with real life and Spring Break with the family.
Been trying to catch up on my wife's Honey Due list.
I'll add a post to the thread.

If the chewing out that was going on earlier didn't work, more would probably just drive him further away.  Sorry, Zeic.  He's basically a Bounty Hunter in it because he's got a grudge against the Empire.  He was recruited because he's good at what he does, and has survived a run in against a Moff alone.  I think the only thing that would make him stay is someone actually acknowledging points and working together to fix things.  So far, people have been quick to dismiss any input.  In his mind, he has extrapolated that sort of mindset in ranking officers to the actual mission itself.  If they're quick to dismiss in the mission debriefing, they will be quick to dismiss during an actual mission which will endanger lives.

It was basically a dry run, and so far it seems that Caddy and Forim have failed in his eyes.

Maybe that will help, Zeic.  I don't know.

Although to defend the GM, he had no idea it was going to explode.

Maybe the princess can elaborate that rhe mission is an intel mission.  We are the guys getting intel.  There is never Intel fpr those guys.

Side Note as a Player:

The only way to get your character back into the room is to have our characters back down and concede to your points?

Are you willing to concede any of our points?

I think our two points are

1. Show respect to leadership
2. Agree that there is no intel, and that stage one of hte mission should be intel gathering

I think your points are

1. accept you who you are, respect abilities not rank
2. the mission sucks because we have no Intel, so it should be scrapped.

Am I off base?

Sorry for the long silence. Not upset, just had some long parties I had previously committed to. I'll address this in a few minutes before I head to bed.

Whew.  Ok.  Since it seems that I've got messages from multiple parties to respond to as well, I'll be responding to each person in the medium they have chosen to contact me unless everyone involved wants me to open the floor to it in the OOC itself.  It seems Jurell has a bit of a continuity problem at the moment considering that he was taken into custody in a private line after he left before Caddy's post, so I'm not sure if he's in custody or in the room still at this point.  That is something that will have to be decided.

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I'll respond to you here, Forim.

No, conceding his points is not the only way to get the character in the room.

1. Showing respect to leadership doesn't seem to be instrumental in a party in the Star Wars universe, nor does it make a whole lot of sense in Jurell's case.  He doesn't know much about anyone here.  We haven't really done anything as yet, and that respect will likely be gradual.  He's not a soldier at this point.  Think of it like the original trilogy: Han wasn't originally super into following things right off the bat.  As they worked with each other, his character changed until he came back to help even when he wasn't originally going to.

2. That there is no intel is precisely what he is saying.  Princess Leia advertised the mission as a "strike" mission.  Jurell was pointing out that for it to actually be a strike mission, there should already have been intel gathering done or they will be walking in blind and potentially have major problems.  If Leia wants them to gather intel that is perfectly fine.  But going in to gather intel and strike would probably be better accomplished with two teams.

Second Part

1. I think he is pointing out that people should respect both, not one or the other.  Respecting a person simply because of their rank doesn't make much sense if that person doesn't have expertise in the area.  A good leader defers to subordinates that have relevant knowledge instead of relying on their rank.  That's really his point.

2. Again, not that the mission should be scrapped.  Modified, probably, but not scrapped.  If Leia wants a strike, she should probably either have two teams (one to gather intel and one to perform the strike) or get the intel first and then reassess before going on to strike depending on the circumstances found.  He thinks the latter will be less feasible because having the same team pull double duty is especially risky.


So, yes, kind of off base on a few points there.  He's really not as unreasonable as I think you all may be painting him.  He really only walked out because of Forim's last comment about the door being there and calling him a grunt, basically.  Otherwise, he probably would have stayed put.

Well, With you being arrested, trying to use the OOC medium to find a common ground is almost moot, but I think I will try to continue anyway

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We are making progress!  I read that this mission was intelligence gathering only.  Maybe there would be an item we need to steal, but Leia wants us to get knowledge (intelligence) about the Jedi for luke.


This is her basic introduction.  This says nothing about the mission at all.  I think you agree, because the first thing you say is "so, whats the mission"


Here she tells us three things
1. We got intel about imperial troop movements.  This also hints at a Jedi person, artifact, or similar
2. "I think we should at least find out what it is". This is the part that I understand the mission is pure intel.
3. our travel options.  Not really important to our disagreement.

At this point it seems you see this as a strike mission based on your posts.  This is where our major disagreement starts.  And I think it is because you think this is a "kill" or "strike" mission.


Here you have left the room already, so any extra information from the princess is moot tho this discussion.

However, this does speak to the "lack of intelligence" that you are talking about.  It is not much, but based on the above interpretation of mine that this is an intel gathering mission (which Caddy will change to be a smash and grab mission on the ground when she sees Jedi stuff, and we will probably agree when we see the Empire is planning on destroying it) this extra info just gives us a place to start.  It is nice, but as an intel gathering mission not really needed.

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So, based on your statement Jurell is unwilling to concede either of "our" points, and is not willing to meet us halfway.  I posted that as a player hoping we could find some middle ground.  In any argument the best way out is a compromise.  I was pointing out the two points we are trying to make that if perhaps Jurell could (even temporarily) make a concession to continue the dialog.

With respect to Jurell's point - I think I nailed point 1.  However, contrary to what you are posting here, Jurell does not respect rank at all (Granted, Han barely did and also used the Sweetheart line to degrade the woman he was traveling with.  Lucas is a known sexist which puts that line in the movies.)  So, as long as you are trying to both disrespect the Lieutenant in the room, and degrade he role further because she is a woman on purpose you nailed it.  If you are doing some of these by accident by quoting Star Wars, no problem.  Just wanted to point out that "Sweetheart" inflamed Leia every time that Han used it.  Don't get upset when someone lashes back at you when you insult the leadership directly.

That ties directly into Forim's grunt comment.  You insulted my leader directly.  I insulted you back directly.  Then you left the room.

I know you modeled yourself from Han, and Han did not really respect female leadership at all.  He did have very respectful conversations with the few scenes he had with male leadership.  Han got insulted a lot by said female (that half-witted scruffy-looking nerf herder) but he stayed around because (1, he didnt care he was insulted back or 2, to prove to everyone around him that he was the best: [I couldn't let you get all the glory and reward]).

The second point make sense with the above - you think it is a strike mission.  If you can point out to me why you think this is a strike mission that might help me understand some of your points.

I don't disagree that a intel + strike mission would be _better_ with two teams.  Heck, it would be better with four teams.  Two independant teams gather intel, then a strike team, and a backup strike team incase of curve balls.  That gets us better intel from two overlapping perspectives, and another team in reserve to help the first team if it gets into trouble.

But we are the pennyless rebellion.  Teams often do Intel + Strike on their own.  That is the other part of Forim's point.  When you get assigned a mission, you accept it or you dont.  That is what the GM is getting at with this briefing I think.  Get our grievances out now at the start of the mission so that on the mission we are a coherient party.

Honestly, this post is a bit too massive for me to respond to well.  Sitting on my laptop, I don't have the two monitors I would usually use to respond to each point individually, so I will try to respond to the points that stand out the most.  If there's anything you really want a respond to that I haven't responded to, let me know.  But, honestly, this much is a bit too much for me with the limited time I have to post and limited ability to read and respond to each point.  I'm already mashing alt-tab like crazy as it is!  xD

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Disagreed.  I think you misunderstood the context of why he said what he said.  She started off by saying:


Emphasis mine.  So, in Jurell's mind, she has framed this mission to be a strike mission.  He is, in essence, asking for the details of what has been framed as a strike mission that requires pre-done intelligence in order to assure the least casualties.  So, the problem started actually before you may think it did.  I need to point out that I personally do not see this particular mission any which way.  No initial plan survives first contact in the first place.  All things considered, Jurell is of the opinion that even if they try to go in to "find out what's going on," it's still going to devolve quickly.  What they really needed was relevant information on the base in order to plan out where not to be and where not to go if the mission was going to be successful.  That's the base groundwork that is usually given before a mission like this (ref: original trilogy and Star Wars Rebels).


Honestly, Forim, if I wasn't willing to work for compromise as a player, I would not be taking the time to respond to this large OOC post and two PM threads at this point.  I felt it was important to reframe the impressions you had because I thought they led to important incorrect assumptions.


There's lashing out and there is steamrolling.  Honestly, as I have told Caddy in another PM, this character was designed specifically as a banter counterpoint to her character.  So, yes, the Sweetheart comment was designed especially to evoke that.  I'm not upset about that.  And the comment has nothing to do with disrespect specifically to female characters.  If Caddy was a man, Jurell probably would have done something equally as coarse.  So, still quite a bit off base, in my opinion.  Currently, he has little reason to respect rank given the dialogue between the other ranking officers in the team (Caddy and Forim specifically).

I feel like at this point I need to make another point.  Jurell is by nature a questioning character.  Characters in the Star Wars universe often start out that way by questioning the Rebellion and how it operates.  I can reference Han, sure, but I also want to point out that Ezra and Kanan started out exactly the same way.  They were a part of operations but questioned whether or not things were a good idea.  What it seems to me as a player is that you are expecting "rank and file" characters as part of the Rebellion and this team.  You're interpreting putting his feet up at a table as disrespecting authority, but I feel like I should point out that Kanan and Ezra both straight up questioned the leader of Rebellion force several times in Star Wars Rebels alone.

I also feel like I need to counterpoint what you are saying about why he left because it seems you have the impression that he is butthurt or something.  Jurell is not.  He just sees little point in continuing on when it seems that the ranking officers (again, Forim and Caddy) are willing to go straight into the lion's den on what appears to be a suicidal mission no questions asked.


Disagreed again on this point.  Whether or not the Rebellion is penniless is a bit immaterial to what I'm talking about.  Most of the missions detailed in Rebels (not to mention the famous Bothans that got intelligence on the Death Star), all have at least some idea of the lay of the land.  Maybe not precise troop numbers or the like (which I am in no way expecting), but they have an idea of what's on the ground before they go search for a target.  We've so far gotten none of that.  Where are the bases located in comparison to the target?  Do we have ideas of patrol routes?  Those are pretty basic questions that have not been answered, which is more Jurell's point there.  I think judging from the response from Caddy, at least, that her character thinks that Jurell wants all the details (the milk run comment), which is incorrect.

I find most OOC comments like this usually hurt the game rather than help as you can't use this information as character knowledge and most players get offended at some point.
So, I will read the content but won't be adding to it.
I'd rather hash this out in-character.  ;)

I now tend to agree with you Kraken.  My hope in starting this was that we could use OOC knowledge to help our character act IC in a way that allows a quick resolution to the solution.

For example, if Jurell was willing to apologize for anything, Forim would be happy to hear out his concerns in detail.  I am not saying that is what is going to happen or that apologizing is in Jurell's character.  I am not judging either way.  Sometimes OOC you can give a way for the IC characters to "accidentally" say the right thing.  Sometimes we can use OOC knowledge to metagame a solution before the IC relationship is ruined.

However, as it happens sometimes, some characters are built in such a way that they are inflexible.

At the very least, I see how Jurell sees this as a strike mission now.  I took that statement to be more nebulous in nature, and less a direct bearing on this mission.  Gaining knowledge about the Jedi would strike a blow against the Empire.

That knowledge helps me as a player help Forim the character realize why this guy is so fixated on a strike mission.

I know my post was a beast after I posted it, sorry!

I think I know where you stand, and I think you know where I stand.  I think we know that we disagree with each others position and I can respect that.  We will just have to wait until management lets you out of jail and puts us in a room together again to start hashing it out.

Guys, I'm tired of this. This isn't a forum where we debate political stuff. No more quoting each other and point counterpoint.

Jurell, if you want to play the game, find a way to get back into the mission. all you have to do is say "I want in" and it's fine.

GM, we're really not upset at each other or anything.  I was literally about to just say that I agree with what Forim just said.  It's not that I do not want to play the game, so I'm not really sure where you are coming from in this aspect.  We've been very amicable about it.

Sorry that took a while longer than I wished.  I got a bit distracted with the new Mass Effect!

I thought it was more pertinent to ask this here because it is a terminology question that I have as a player.


Should I be taking this to mean that I should erase all traces of Alpha Team being on the planet?  Or that I should be rescuing a Rebel team that is already on the planet?  The usage of the phrase "Rebel Team" makes the mission a little ambiguous to me as a player.

This is the first Rebel mission to the planet. They want it to be a secret that there are any Rebels involved in this mission.

Man i really read that wrong.

I thought we were supposed to plant the odea of a cell where there was none!

It's ok Force.  We're on the same wavelength ;-)

I am ready for mission start / the introduction of our fellow team mates.

Wow.... tried to get a post in early... just not happening with everyone posting :-)   I applaud the passion!  Hopefully the flow of posts isn't too disconcerting.

Are we really rolling PC to PC social checks at this point?  This really doesn't seem like the best way to handle things.  If it's really going to be one of those kinds of games, I think I'll remove myself from the game.  I have been in far too many games in the past where such things were horribly abused.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:22, Thu 23 Mar 2017.

I'm also rather confused by what Caddy is saying?  Jurell has straight up said that he doesn't do suicide runs, but he will look out for other members of the team.  So, why is she pseudo-threatening him?  I don't understand.  His statement amounts to "I don't do suicide runs, but I'll do whatever else."  So, people are upset that he doesn't do those?  Yeesh.  Tough crowd.

I'm just showing that my words are convincing.   It's all too easy to ignore peoples words and call their bluff because of OOC knowledge.

I don't really know what sort of OOC knowledge you are talking about.  While you are here would you mind explaining your IC post to me to alleviate the confusion I mentioned?  It's difficult to write a post in response when I don't understand it.

Hey Caddy, Just curious how you built your dice pool?

Did you upgrade your Deception to 3P recently?  Also, Deception does not really fit for the text you use.  Charm or Leadership fit better in my mind (although I am a newb at social rolls)

Additionally, the Deception is opposed by the targets Discipline, which would be 1D 1C in this case.

Finally, How did you get the boost die?  If it is for rank, the target has made it very clear he holds no respect for that rank.  If it is for the leverage of being on the mission with us, well he has specifically stated that he is willing to walk away.  Perhaps you are getting the boost from somewhere else though.

Just want to make sure if you are doing an opposed check, you are building the dice pool correctly!  No point making a roll to show lots of successes when in reality the roll was much more difficult!  Heck, you might fail showing YOU back down instead of padding the success to force him to back down ;)

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In addition, I agree with Jurell that rolling dice against him forces him to
a) accept what you say blindly - preventing him from being able to role play or
b) initiate a social or combat encounter with the group.

It really backs him into a corner.

PvP dice never turns out well, unless both players agree ahead of time for a contest of skill.

In a more positive note, we have a tonne of great pilots here!  I think it might make a cool adventure to have us in Y-Wings (or some other 2 man ships).  Pilot / Gunner combo for each ship.  We have the pilots!

Should be cool.  Ill make sure I step up my piloting game to stay on top!  Would hate to lose my position of power ;)