A place to pitch and spitball game ideas that you would either like to see run or would like to run.

With the playtest of the Vigilante coming out, I'm real interested in seeing how it works out and have been toying with various worlds to run a game in.

3rd party material. Snippets of some amazing ideas and abilities that taunt and tease you on the pfsrd, yet you will rarely get the chance to play due to being 'unbalanced' or 'not a fit for my campaign'. The few games you find which allow these works of art usually have received 10 applications by the end of the day they were posted to 'Requesting Players'.

I desire a game where 3rd party content is open season so long as the gm has no problem with it (Here's looking at you, Godling classes). Preferably a lowish level start, something like 6 or 7. Gestalt......I can go one way or the other on that.

The basic premise behind this is something classic. Characters from various realms and locations who likely don't know each other have been dropped into a world many would call deadly. Strange and outright bizarre beasts walk the land and unknown peoples dwell here or perhaps even hunt you strange intruders.
Thrown together, you have little choice but to work together for whatever purpose you decide, do you want to return home, carve out your own territory, or conquer this land?

I will warn this, I am not a good gm, I am a player who was driven to gm for the simple reason that no games but my own allowed me to use the material I desired.
I really want someone who can take this idea and make it fun for the players to do so in my stead. I am fully willing to contribute myself to fleshing everything out and doing whatever is needed to make this happen.
I just wanna play a bloody TaskShaper.

Please pm me if this is of any interest to you.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:18, Thu 16 July 2015.

http://rpg-ideas.wikidot.com/s...-tags/tag/pathfinder

Did you come up with these? There's a couple I really like. The first one made me think about creating a Pathfinder version of Captain Planet where Earth/Fire/Wind/Water must quest to find heart.

I'm thinking a custom setting or a different plane where humans don't exist, everyone is an elemental race. Their plane comes under attack by an ancient evil, possibly a breach to the negative energy plane so the 4 elementals have to quest to find "heart", a chosen one aasimar who represents the positive energy plane.

To find this person though they travel to Golarion where the child exists and they have only vague clues as to where. Add to that the negative energy plane sending its own champions to find the child and defeat the prophecy and you get this weird Fifth Element/Captain Planet/Harry Potter vibe that I think might be really neat...

Anyway just an idea for now. If I decide to pursue it further you guys will be the first to know.

Heya.

Before I hand over my game idea for your delight or ridicule, I wanted to say a little about my approach to playing RPGs.

I like to craft stories rather than crunch mechanics.  I run some rules-lite games using a system called Wushu for this very reason, allowing me to play the game, not the rules, all the time.   But i have a pile of Pathfinder material I have never, ever used... and I wanted to specifically use one tome.  I've run D&D, AD&D 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 and 3.5 for countless years before delving into other systems like Vampire, Exalted, and the like.

So... anyway, to the game idea:

A desert filled with Ghul, sand-sharks and horrors beyond mention; a river running through it, bringing life to the shores in seasonal floods; a populace of humans and near-humans surviving in the baking sun by tilling the fertile land on the banks of the great river - these are the images that come to mind when people hear about the Kingdom of the Pharaoh Rames IX.

What doesn't come to mind is the hidden dangers that lurk within the cities of mankind, of the dangers that lurk in the heavens, and the terrors that await their time to burst forth from the Netherworld and consume everything.

The game is basically set in a world similar to Ancient Egypt, with plenty of room to explore. I thought I might have 3 players make a party and hopefully find an opportunity to apply Mythic tiers to them through the course of play.  I want the game to remain fairly epic in scope, but also very Ancient World in feel.

So, any tips?  Any feedback?  the link to what I have so far is here: link to another game

Nicely done.

How about keeping the druid class, but calling it a fertility / farming priest, who protects the strip of fertile land along the Besint? And it can change into domesticated animals instead of wild ones. A domesticated druid.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:41, Thu 03 Sept 2015.

There are two books in the Osirion setting that might be worth glancing through if you haven't (and if you can get your hands on them, it's probably not worth buying them at this point):
Osirion, Land of Pharaohs
Osirion, Legacy of Pharaohs
Mostly the second, which has all the cool ideas for old ruins and desert sites to explore. But maybe that is the book which you meant when you said there is a tome you wanted to use ?

Regarding the sorcerer class, if having the right hand cut off is the penalty for 'stealing magic', what happens when the sorcerer continues casting spell without it ? Hard to cut it again, and the loss of a hand does not prevent spellcasting, barely hinders it in fact...
Also, I can just imagine an old sorcerer instructing his apprentices:
"and remember lads, the ring of regeneration is worn on the left hand, never on the right one..."

Thanks for the idea about the Druid Class.  I'll have to mull it over.

I've not heard of the Orison books... but i'll have a poke around and see what they are.

Regarding the sorcerer class... very true... I'll elaborate some more on that.

HA! That's great. You could make it an open secret that it's hard to control magic users because they just magic around the punishments :P

You know magic-users... you never can trust the buggers...

"CHARM PERSON!"
"We're not the sorcerers you've been looking for."

I really like that setting idea, in fact I already have a character idea. Have you thought about the base and hybrid classes yet or you just planning to go core?

I'm not sure what you're referring to with Hybrid classes, which probably answers your question.  I was just going to stick with what's presented in the core, with a few changes here and there.

I fixed the druid class for you, by the way.  If anyone is interested, feel free to shoot me an RTJ in the game.  I'm just finishing up the setting, but having keen people will definatly make that happen faster.

Wow.

Errr... lions in the desert?

Ant Lions in the desert ;)

A note on the favored enemies you listed for the rangers: shouldn't they already fall into the usual categories ? For instance an Efreet is an outsider(fire), I assume the Ghul is an undead, and a Sand Shark is either a magical beast or an aberration... all of which are already favored enemies choices.

For the sorcerer, the Efreeti bloodline looks like it would fit very well into the setting, although it is not in the core book.

Yeah, i agree about the Ranger - the mention there is really to steer people away from things like orcs, goblins and the like, which I won't be including in any adventures.  I will look into a better way of presenting that information.

An Efreeti bloodline would be cool- I'll look into it =)

@metulmonkee:
I don't know if you already know it, but it's useful: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classe.../sorcerer/bloodlines

Yarp, it is useful.  I added the Efreeti bloodline from the SRD, but im having a bit of a rethink about classes.  Since there are so many, im thinking instead of a list of Allowed and Banned things, instead making a vision statement and hoping people can work within that. That way, people can use the wider SRD and books to come up with a myriad of character options and play what they want.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.  Its been really useful.  Thus far, the setting and the character creation 'rules' are starting to come to shape nicely.

link to another game

Ive had a couple of interested people enquire, but before i throw up a 'Players Wanted' thread, I thought I'd come here first.

Hi.

I have an idea for a game I'd like to play in. I'm not a good gm so it would be cool if someone else would run it. Its a little different so we'll see. Warning this is probably going to be ramble-y.

The world would be a standard fantasy one in most respects, wizards and monsters and all that. There are a couple things that make it unique however. In this world music is life. Magic especially is musical. The gods are all fantasy counterparts to real world musicians. Here is the pantheon and the thing that gave me this idea:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Pantheon/Music

So for people to hear and play their gods' music there are magical versions of modern musical equipment. Magic radios, electric instruments, amplifiers that kind of thing. Pretty much everyone is a follower of one of the gods or genres of music and the pc's would have something tying them to their god/s. Here are some examples:

The character I want to play is a follower of Ronnie James Dio. A sorceror with the Maestro bloodline. All verbal components would be sung, and if possible would be lyrics from a Dio song.

A fighter follower of Kiss who uses a battle axe because Gene Simmons plays an axe bass.

A monk who carries a boom box. When a fight starts he sets it down to get a beat because his fighting style is break dancing.

The conflict for the game would come from some entity,  whether an eldritch abomination or a powerful mortal(maybe a psion who gets their power from the lack of music), out to silence all music somehow. Which of course would end all life as we know it. So the pcs form a band to stop it. The gods of course don't interfere directly because that's what gods do.

Sound interesting to anyone?

That sounds great, I'd probably go for a mesmerist who followed Freddie Mercury. The trick would be setting up all the domains etc though.

Giving all of the deities domains would be a huge undertaking. Personally I would only worry about it if someone wanted to play a cleric and then just give the god chosen some domains.

That sounds neat (and also reminds me of the game Brutal Legends).

If I were running the game, I would only list out say a dozen or so of the "greats" (just cull a top selling or most popular bands of all time, take the top 10) and those would be the greater gods. There are hundreds of demi-gods and moderate powered gods  so players would be free to choose their own and then basically for clerics give them free reign on domains AS LONG AS IT MAKES SENSE!

Something like "they have to use that word or similar words in their famous songs) so if you want Travel domain then something like Nancy Sinatra (These Boots were made for walking) or The Proclaimers (I would walk 500 miles).

Yes that would give someone prolific w/ lots of hits like Elton John nearly every domain...as it should :P

Again taking a page from Brutal Legends you could assign genres by race. So the elves could be classical and their pantheon are the late greats Beethoven and Bach etc. Orks would be metal because of course they would. Dwarves could be Country/Folk, Gnomes could be Electronica and Halflings could be rap because I find that funny :P

Actually given the large number of musical genres you could have many genres associated to a given race...

There's music outside of bands ! And there was music before top selling was a concept !



Ah, finally ! Someone who remember there was music before the 20th century ! When someone writes the Art of the Fugue and everyone afters him just gives up trying to outdo him in this particular form of music, that should mean something ;)

In reply to Halancar (msg # 26):

Oh I didn't mean to exclude classical and folk and anything else you could think of. In fact I think I made a mistake in how I worded that sentence about the pantheon link. That should be more of a guideline, I don't think any musician should be left out. I spent a bit of time talking about electric instruments to be sure modern artists can be represented but older styles should be welcome as well. In fact a deaf oracle follower of Beethoven sounds pretty neat to me. Can you imagine being deaf in that setting?

@praguepride
I don't know that album sales should be the criteria for greater/lesser god. I would base it off of their sphere of influence, which would of course be arbitrarily decided upon by the group. Maybe leaving the whole hierarchy out of it and just calling them all even would be the best way to go.

I think giving the races a musical tendency is a good idea, but personally I'd rather it not be a hard rule that race x listens to music y. Maybe that's just because I want to play my Dio character as either an elf or a gnome(I haven't decided yet). Elf because he was in a band called Elf. Gnome because he was short.

What I mean is to establish genre pantheons instead of racial pantheons. You can make the setting more diverse then Pathfinder RAW and allow anyone to worship anything, just the default cultures would gravitate towards one genre or another, again if you're following Brutal Legend.


And I agree on the sphere of influence...once you establish "cultures", say around musical genres, you can then cull the top stars of those genres to form your greater gods.

So Beethoven and Mozart are the major gods of the "Classical" pantheon, while Black Sabbath/Metallica are the major gods of metal.

Then again it's all really up to the GM. If the GM decides that the Pixies are the overgods then who can really argue with him/her?

Ah, I thought you meant 10greater deities total. 10 per genre is a good idea.


True, it is up to the gm. Of course no one has stepped up. If anyone is interested in being a pc alongside me I'd be willing to put something in Wanted.

There is a game starting up here
link to another game

It is NOT Pathfinder, the system is GURPS and the genre is science fiction, but it has the same flavor of music at the center of everything, so I thought I'd mention it.

I'd love to put together a Skald for a music domains game.  Or a flavoured cleric :)

The other character idea I had for that was a doom herald malefactor for a death metal band....

Man this sounds like Brutal Legend :)

I'm in the mood to play in or run a game in Ravenloft.  I always envision Ravenloft to be a game where people don't worry about the longevity of their characters, just get the most out of every moment.  Players could even play commoners or what not.  If a player's character dies, they would simply pick up another character in the story that makes sense.  I could offer an array of available characters that might fit into the story as it progresses.  Any thoughts?

A commoner game in Ravenloft would be AMAZING. I'd play if someone else ran it :)

This game idea popped up in my brain over a weekend and it's itching the space behind my eyes.  I had wanted torun it not in Pathfinder, but in a simpler system - though it seems that nobody likes that idea. Sad as I am about that (the system I had in mind would have allowed for combats to end in a matter of a week or two) the game does seem fun to me.  Would it work in Pathfinder?  I think it could - but I'd want to maintain a 1/day post rate.

Anyway, Looking for feedback on this idea.  if there is any interest, I might create the game over Christmas to begin in January.

A hundred years ago, the land was filled with the bounty of life and culture only a golden age can bring.  Peace reigned among the Kingdom of Alusia and beyond, in the woodlands where the Elven-kind dwelt and in the mountain clan-holdings of the Dwarves. Learning and beauty were the watchwords of the civilised lands, art and poetry were created in quantity and of quality...

And then there was the Drachenacht.

It all ended.  The sky went dark as vast wings blotted out the sun.  Fire rained down from the sky,levelling the towns and cities and villages.  Vast, winged reptilian intelligences devoured ash and cinders, hoarded the riches and the treasures of an age they had broken. Dragons returned to Alusia and destroyed it.  Smoke obscured daylight for months as the dragons burned and tore their way through anything that caught their attention.

Oh, Mankind were the first to try and resist these dread beasts - but swords and bows hardly harmed them, and magic seemed to have little effect over these monsters. The Elves fled as their woodlands were reduced to charcoal. The dwarves retreated under their mountains to avoid their most hated foe.

Once the races of man and elf and dwarf had fled or dug too deep to unearth, the Dragons began to nest amid the carnage they had wrought, birthing strange creatures of their own flesh but warped in order to further their own goals.  The Dragonkin were able to oust hidden groups of humanity from their pits to feed their parents.

Now, there is only one free city, one place hidden from the Dragon Menace - the 'city' of Shield. Shield lies under the ruins of a town on the outskirts of the lost kingdom of Alusia, and is ruled by the hereditary heir to that throne, King Kemnon. Mankind and a handful of other races live here, eking an existence from the fungi-farms and scavenging parties they can manage.

Kemnon has called for heroes though, man and women who he would send to strike back against the Dragons and reclaim his throne.  The portents all point to Mankind either living on the surface of the world once more, soon, or else burned to a crisp in an infero of dragon's breath.

I do like the idea. As for the system and the duration of fights, remember that as the GM you can perfectly well step in once it's obvious the PC are winning, and cut it short :) (on the other hand, it probably wouldn't go well if you cut it short when the PC are losing)

Dragons actually being forces of elemental destruction of sufficient quantity and cohesion to challenge the humanoid races is a good concept.

The tone of the game will depend greatly upon what the king wants the heroes to do. Two options off the top of my head would be: a) group of heroes go seeking some artifact power that would give the kingdom a chance at winning the war; or b) king is forming a group of elite forces who will take the dragons on directly, killing them one by one or in small groups now that the dragons aren't rampaging in massive armies no one could resist.

As you can imagine, those two games would be very different from one another and would appeal to completely different players.

Sounds like Reign of Fire but with the resistance coming from under the earth.  Sounds fun, can follow the plot on the movie and go after the Big Bad fella or strategic missions to collect resources to create the uber dragon killer artifacts or pieces and material to craft specialized armor/weapons to help the heroes battle them.

Can we imagine Dragonkin something like Draconians in Dragonlance?

The über-artifact is rather cliché (and why wouldn't they have used it before civilization was utterly decimated?), but I do love dragons and dragon-centric games. I don't know exactly what is aimed for either, but perhaps instead of there being true hope, this is more a final stand, a last ditch before everything ends. A bit more bleak and end-times themed.

If you run this game I am in.

:)

There is no magic bullet, no port vent that will explode the Deathstar, no orb of Deus Ex Machina or anything of that sort in my imagining of the tale that we'd be telling.  I'd be going for a grim-dark mood with over-the-top combat and magic effects, but ideally a lower magic setting - so some limits on magic and magic users. The game was inspired in part by the film 'Reign of Fire', and in part by 'The Gamers 2: The Dorkness Rising' but I do not want to create a game that is simply about humor - those games bore the pants off me.

I had originally imagined the game using a very cut down system to improve the flow and leave mechanics as something that works for the story, not against it.  However, it could work using a Pathfinder system - I'm thinking of going E6 - not entirely sure as yet.  I want dragons to be deadly deadly foes - and I want character death to be a very real possibility when facing them.

Any thoughts about this?

P.s.
Sorry for the late reply - I was travelling and then had some internet troubles when I arrived.

The problem with making combat shorter, I've found, is that it can be even more brutal to players then ordinary.

For example, if you say take 3 turns at a time (i.e. everyone can make 3 moves and 3 standard actions as part of their turn) then winning initiative REALLY wins battles as you can slice & dice the enemy before they get a chance to react. The flipside is also true though...

I would say that taking triple actions would definitely speed things up (for as long as my combats are, in terms of rounds they're usually less then 10 total rounds in game) and if you tell players up front then they know to expect to get 1-shotted (or deliver a 1-shot) every combat...
This message was last updated by the player at 21:42, Mon 11 Jan 2016.

I was wondering if anyone has had much experience with urban campaigns, specifically those around a "mega-city", a metropolis where the players wouldn't have much reason to leave.

I've never played in one, but I've always been interested in playing one, as well as building one, but not running one myself - I've accepted I can creator a game but not run one.

I've heard good things about Ptolus and Sigil from Planescape, and I also own Cadwallon which is a very interesting read. Are there any others which folks would recommend, that are either for, or would work well within Pathfinder?

Is it the kind of game someone would be interested in running?
Is it the kind of game others would want to play?
If using a homebrew, would they mind me assisting in creating the city, or even working together so that you run the game and I help build the set pieces?

Ages ago I ran a game based out of Waterdeep, the "mega city" of Forgotten Realms.

I spent hours combing through different books so I could throw up EVERY SINGLE store, NPC, and point of interest into an information thread, along with a lot of hidden information for myself.

The idea was to give the players the information they needed to have more agency in the game. I was hoping that instead of just saying "We go shopping" or "We find a tavern" they would actually look at the information I provided and say which shop or which tavern...

That...didn't work. At all. I have no idea if anyone even read through all that work :(

I wouldn't really rely on the setting to run the game. Call my cynical but unless you're running a freeform game I have seen very little initiative from players in the past 10 years. There are of course a few exceptions but the majority of players are content to just sit there and wait for you to drag them from plot point to plot point. If the GM is not pushing the story forward, >50% of players will just stop checking the game and let it die.


That being said, they can be fun to offer a different experience then a typical dungeon crawler however I have found that most games that deviate from the "kick down door, fight monster, grab treasure" format tend to suffer and die because the player's aren't ready for a non-standard game.

NOW there are exceptions and if you can find those players beforehand, or are willing to play "player roulette" where you go through several rounds of replacement then there is no reason a game like that can't work out, it's just the long running games I've seen for D&D/Pathfinder have all been Adventure Path/Linear kick down monster, fight treasure, loot door style games...

Urban settings have my preference actually because there's always people to interact with and the game usually covers more social aspects instead of just hack&slash dungeon crawls. I really love Sharn from Eberron myself.

Edit: I recognize what you say Praguepride. Especially for D&D/Pathfinder. The system is almost fully about combat and has a pretty sickening amount of minmaxing in its community and that seems to draw a certain type of player to it. Take systems like World of Darkness and you will more often see the opposite kind of player pop up; people who want to tell their personal story rather then being dragged along on the plot train. I myself like some personal freedom and not feel punished when I go off the course the DM laid out for me, and do some roleplay character development, something Pathfinder sadly is not strong at. I found a few exceptional DM's over my years who can manage it though, but then indeed the attrition problem rears its ugly head. As soon as people have to think for themselves or are not handed loot at regular intervals they start losing interest. So it's really hard to find those types of games that manage to keep breathing.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:08, Mon 11 Jan 2016.

Last time I tried to show initiative by trying to bluff my way through a plot instead of fighting my way through, the GM threw us into a TPK, so I tend to just follow the GM's lead more often then not now...

Which I know I shouldn't do, but it's easy :(
This message was last edited by the player at 23:16, Mon 11 Jan 2016.

Bad GM is bad.

An urban environment can be fun, as a GM, even if my intent is to let the players "play in the big city sandbox," I find its always best to have a few one-off adventures in my proverbial pocket for when the posting shuts down, or maybe worse, when four of my players go silent, but one person is happily running about talking to npcs, etc.

Agreed but it's always hard when playing with people you don't know. I like it when player's take initiative but not at the expense of other players. I had a player basically say "none of your stories matter, just follow my super awesome guy" and everyone pretty much quit because they didn't want to deal with him.

Every single plot line was like "That's dumb, let's do this instead..."


Meanwhile I have been playing in games and nothing was happening so I was like "I'm gonna go to the tavern and chat up the mysterious guy in the corner" hoping to jump start some kind of plot...ANYTHING. We had been standing around chatting to each other for months RL without anything happening.

Well the GM got really pissy about it. First there wasn't a guy in the corner and then there wasn't even a tavern. Then the GM just quit.

/shrug

I figure I'm just going to do my thing and have fun with it :P

So I been tasked with running a game for a newbie (I won't lie, we are playing DnD 5E since those are the only books I have).

She wants to be a dragonborn so I'm going to run a dragonborn noble campaign, with full fledged dragons being the heads of houses and the dragonborn being the nobles under them. SHe wants an evil campaign so since its just her and no one to back stab her.

I was wondering if you guys had any ideas that could help or maybe plot hooks.

---

If the GM doesn't want to give me hooks then I'll make some but generally I prefer to let the GM lead it.

Lottttaaa ways to go.

One idea is that it could have been a land that was mostly ruled by dragons but then the dragons all kind of disappeared (reasons left to you, maybe heroes slayed them, maybe they all ascended to a higher plane, maybe some epic level spell wiped them out, maybe they are all just hibernating to wait out some upcoming apocalypse...)

Anyway, all the dragons poof gone leaving a biiiig power vacuum that the dragonborn decide they should try and fill. Basically the idea would be to run around to the different empires of men/elves/dwarves/orcs and pressuring them into swearing fealty to your noble house while countering enemy houses.


Another idea is to do a corruption of Cheliax from Pathfinder but replace "Devils" with "Dragons". Basically a powerful nation empire has conquered a big patch of the land because they are "allied" with some Lawful Evil dragons (insert type however you want). Truth be told they're really slaves to the dragons but propaganda means that everyone thinks they are just allies. Anyway over the centuries dragonborn rise up to replace humans or whatever as the "nobles" and favored ones. THEN you could run modifications of Pathfinder games like Council of Thieves just replacing all the demon/devil stuff with dragon stuff. It'd be a bit of work but not too hard to do, even on the fly

I should also mention that she is a Sorcerer. So that opens up the magic avenue as well.

I do like the Dragons taking over that could explain the history of the people and give her a resistance to fight against in the form of humans that want control back. She isn't going to be a straight up combat character because she's a sorcerer so at first it will be more of a political/noble game.

You could give her a bodyguard GM-NPC to help handle the heavy lifting and tank for her if it does go to combat...

Hang on...


Here is a game I ran that was styled after the Count of Monte Cristo. I'd appreciate you not lifting everything point for point but it might hopefully spark some ideas on how to run an evil political game

link to another game

Unfortunately I hit a rough spot IRL and didn't realize i hadn't posted for awhile in this game and the player went AWOL...

Thanks for letting me look at that. I was wondering are there any dnd or pathfinder adventure modules that focus on nobility or evil characters I could take a look at to help?

The Dragon noble houses could oppose one another? Game of Dragons, hooo! :)

There are no official Pathfinder games that are purely "evil". Some games like Kingmaker or Skull & Shackles are tolerant towards those with evil inclination but it is always something the GM is going to have to be observant about because the default mindset behind Pathfinder modules and adventure paths are that the PCs are "heroes".

Hence why they always have a selection of default Good/Neutral characters at the back of every adventure. Pathfinder does not, to my knowledge, have default "evil" characters.

On a side note a buddy of mine runs a GIGANTIC podcast around an evil campaign. They're up to something like 188 weekly episodes give or take. He has also done panels at GenCon about running an evil campaign.

http://geekspective.com/catego...s-evil-does/page/21/

This might be of interest, though I've never experienced it (it always fills up fast when I see one).
http://www.firemountaingames.c...y_of_the_wicked.html

It's far from perfect, but I got through the first book and a half of Way of the Wicked in an evil party and it was great.

Well I look at it like this, there's no real evil. The bad guys think they're doing the right thing. So I can turn any module around for an evil group. I was more so looking for an adventure for a noble that I could draw from.

I think the biggest issue is people don't realize what the definition of 'Evil' is in most cases - and sadly it wouldn't be considered a 'valid' definition by most.

Merriam-Webster online definition:

1
a :  morally reprehensible :  sinful, wicked <an evil impulse>
b :  arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation>
2
a archaic :  inferior
b :  causing discomfort or repulsion :  offensive <an evil odor>
c :  disagreeable <woke late and in an evil temper>
3
a :  causing harm :  pernicious <the evil institution of slavery>
b :  marked by misfortune :  unlucky


Direct/gaming or general life definition:  To be totally driven by selfish/self-centered motivations such as to be unconcerned with harming others or deliberately seek to cause harm to others.  Where harm could be financial, social, physical, mental, emotional or any other form of misfortune or injury.  Essentially Evil is "always looking out for number one".

There really isn't a definition in practical terms. It's entirely subjective; citing the dictionary definition just boils down to "something people don't like." The issue is that many people don't share a subjective frame of reference with suitable overlap, not that they don't understand the definition.

In reply to bashful_batrean (msg # 62):

Yep, I actually agree. Evil is selfishness to the detrement of others. The thing is, this can be expressed in an infinite number of ways. Not all are obvious or even directly disruptive. It also means that in the real world, people of evil alignment are quite common.

I would disagree and say that evil is in the eye of the beholder. There are many examples in history of what we would call 'evil men' who thought they were working for the greater good, that they were sacrificing themselves for the cause.

A not-so-historical example would be the Operative from the movie Serenity. In his mind, he was doing all the bad things that needed to be done to keep justice and democracy alive. He would (and did) murder innocents and do reprehensible acts to preserve the greater good of the world.

While I'm not saying such beliefs are common, I think you will find fanatics and exteremists who commit evil acts who aren't doing it for purely selfish reasons, in fact it is the extreme selflessness of their motivations that allows them to be the conduit for evil.

They are doing evil so other people don't have to.

---

So on a different tact I would say is that concepts of good/evil are highly subjective to culture and society. I might view non-violence as 'good' and violence as 'evil' (i.e. murder bad, peace good) but if you look at it from the mindset of say the Orks then it becomes the opposite. Violence and death are the purest expressions of your god and you are doing your god and your people a disservice when you lay down arms or don't exert yourself physically. In that society, violence is good, non-violence is evil.

D&D alignments are all based upon the mindset of Lawful Good as the starting point (hence why it is Law versus Chaos and not Order vs. Freedom or something 'nicer' then Chaos).

HOWEVER if you built up an NE or CE society like the orcs or the undead and skewed things to their perspective you would get different definitions of 'good' and 'evil'

But that view of Orcs, Goblins, etc falls under the "Might Makes Right" mindset, where if the weaker can't fend for themselves, then they die.  Good vs Evil is subjective, but it's subjective with a slant of Society vs the Individual.  Who will benefit more by the actions - the greater whole, or a select few?  And truly benefit, not gain some minor token while the 'inner circle' gains all the choicest rewards because they're part of the 'driving force' and thus 'entitled'.

Good in this sense would be served when the sacrifices of the individual or few actually provides noticeable gains for those outside their immediate influence with little or no gain or direct reward to those performing the actions.

Orcs wouldn't re-define the concept of 'good' and 'evil', but they would have a different morality between what is accepted as 'right' or 'wrong' from their societal viewpoint.  (As long as it doesn't hurt me or my tribe, then I'm ok with that... if it brings us wealth at the destruction of 'lesser' beings, that's to be encouraged.

Evil is a concept invented by humans to solidify their world view.  If they can justify getting rid of, destroying, treating like dirt, etc that which they define as evil they are vindicating their actions.  WWII is a perfect example, Hitler said the Jews, homosexuals, and Gypsies were evil, thus the general public was ok with the way they were treated.

Might makes right is the concept of evolution and happens in nature all the time.  Only humans disdain such a thing as being unnatural.  In your example the Orcs do redefine what is good and evil.  Good is good for them, then their family, then their tribe.  Evil tries to hurt the same people.

But you're referring to Real-world concepts (in which there is only one sentient species roaming the planet), versus a 'conceptualized' concept of behavioral 'norms' constrained by 'alignments' in an RPG for purposes of conceptualization and mutual recognition in the imagination.  As such, this isn't a 'philosophical' interpretation of Good, Evil, and 'shades of grey', it is a 'given' behavioral classification based on the being's relationship with the world around him.  Where exceptions would exist, you'd be hard-pressed to convince the general population that this is the case.

In the Original D&D, the idea was to give a 'foe' which you could fight without having to ponder the 'moral' implications of your decisions.... after all, it's a FANTASY GAME, you're there fir fun and to semi-constructively blow off steam and frustrations by beating the crap out of the imaginary representation of your difficult day at work, school, what have you.

By far the best Alignment system I've seen is Palladium, where they list the 6(?) alignments with 7-10 bulletpoints following tat describe the behavior of someone with that alignment.

In reply to praguepride (msg # 65):

If I take your life to enforce my political ideals, that's selfish (and evil).

The human concept of being is itself flawed (see Robert Anton Wilson's E-Prime) but this is undeniably an evil act.

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 68):

Mutual Aid is a much stronger factor in evolution than might makes right.

How about a different tactic?

Evil is in the eyes of the DM :P

They're all evil, sir.

As far as I can tell, good and evil in RL are 100% subjective, and cultures started wars over whose interpretation of these is the 'correct' one.

If I understood it correctly, in D&D (and Pathfinder) Good = Altruistic, Evil = Cruel. (By the way, in my opinion the Pathfinder Society and its members are, by the above definition, Evil).
This message was last edited by the player at 23:54, Thu 14 Jan 2016.

Perhaps in human society but in every other group in nature the strongest/wittiest/manipulative are the ones that get to mate and ensure that their genetic code gets passed on.

One could even disagree that it works in human society.  it could be argued that the protection of the sick and weak in human society has cause us as a species to stop evolving.

Edited the following quote for directness:


Are we taking this to vote?
Because I agree with it!
Played a Society game, which I've not done in a while, was floored by how many 'evil' characters are the table...
For example:
I was the token pre-made Cleric; nothing uber-killer.
Going through the adventure and suddenly, I have to heal people!
Great, getting ready to do the 'wash' cycle of healing - that channel healing aura.  In this party, we have 6 players; they all group around me for warmth not knowing I could fill the room up-to 30 feet, whatever...
So, they're all around me: Blast the wave...roll the dice - rather high - and...
Everyone's eyes light-up, they're thinking: We're almost back to full health till...
The DM asked me: What alignment I was and which Deity I asked for assistant.
I said: The goody-goody one and I am goody-goody alignment.
THUD
THUD
THUD
There it was, I took down three Evil characters. Left standing:  Me (ofcourse), a Fighter and a Rogue.  Which I asked the Rogue: How are you still standing?  They smiled and said: I have one hit-point left...

The DM, the Fighter, the Rogue and I are old college roommates; and the DM has played with the group - minus me - before; so he kinda knew what would happened.  I on the other-hand got reminded the 'joys' of playing at Stores...

Talk about three very pissed-off High-schools!

Another way to look at good/evil in Pathfinder is as good being selfless while evil is selfish. A good person does what's good for others, they'll sacrifice what they want to help other people, if it's good for them too that's fine but not their true motivation.  A selfish person does things only for their own benefit, if it doesn't serve them in some manner then they won't do it.  Neutral on that axis is harder to define, if they have a lawful/chaotic compnent their motivations are easier to define, if they're true neutral it becomes much more complicated, they likely would strive for a balance between the two or consider things as what will best lead to the intended result.

In reply to LittleJumbo (msg # 76):

AWESOME!!!!!!   Really wish I could've been there to see that!

Are you telling us that those evil characters deliberately came closer to your cleric after he announced that he was going to channel energy for healing ?

I don't see those characters as having a bright future among the Pathfinders. Evil has its place, indeed evil can shine among the Pathfinders, but stupidity will just get them killed. A good cleric will hurt them, and an evil one... shouldn't be trusted in the first place, certainly not when you are already wounded :)

That's not how channel energy is supposed to work. Unless they were undead it should've healed them anyway.

In reply to eggellis (msg # 80):

You're correct, I happened to leave out a few extra details about the other three Characters along with some side banter that took place...
While the channel, should've healed them - we may-have taken it upon my Deity to be a little more 'unforgiving'.  Granted, when they've spent a large amount of time bashing my Character's Deity and mentioning the foul things they'd do to worshipers/followers...
Best of all, one was an anti-Paladin whom use to follow the same Deity.

I will add this, that anti-Paladin had a great back-story about how the pre-made cleric was his sister and they had a falling out...

But, yeah, probably should not have harmed them.

In reply to PCO.Spvnky (msg # 75):

You might find the following interesting reading then:

http://www.davemech.org/news.html (the myth of the alpha wolf)

http://www.scientificamerican....arwin-misunderstood/

Kropotkin's book on this subject has lots of good counter-examples of mutual aid in the animal kingdom:
https://www.complementarycurre...-Peter_Kropotkin.pdf

Arguably, the most successful species on earth practice mutual aid over competition. Ask any ant!

So I know LivingScarecrow has an excellent evil game going but I was thinking about having a game set in Golarion with a similar stance as that or the <a href="http://geekspective.com/">Geekspective's Evil is as Evil Does</a> game.

Basically you get a group of 4-6 'evil' characters and their goal is to take over a city (I'm thinking Korvosa).

Each PC would have a higher level sponsor so it might be an organization like the Red Mantis or House of Thune or just an established/custom NPC master manipulator.

Then through the patrons each character has an initial task, like a Night Herald would want to start a cult to the elder gods or the Red Mantis might want to set up an assassin's guild. Players would be mid level, say 5-7, and it would rely heavily on downtime rules.

It would start as a bit of a sandbox and hopefully some good narratives and plots develop as the players work with/against one another to secure their portion of the city.

Before anyone gets too excited I am not in the position to run another game full time but I'd love to assist another GM on it...

PP, bruh, that game sounds wicked (no pun intended) and concepts for characters flared up like a wildfire. I'm gonna also have to say that I don't think I could take on a full game right now but would totally love to play in one like you outlined.

So, just to clarify, praguepride, the game would eventually turn into a PvP on a city scale?

Most definitely sounds awesome, and a good Evil game can be a lot of fun. Sadly, my own talents as a GM are... lacking, to put it lightly.

That sounds like an awesome game to make a character for... I think the challenge would be picking one CONCEPT out of the dozens that will inevitably pop up :P

I figure it could go one of three ways. First is everyone plays nice and sticks together, one where everyone betrays their patrons, and one where everyone starte plotting and attacking each other

That would work. Another way you could do it is you could sandbox until they actually conquered the city, with the help of a singular NPC, then turn into city vs. city combat as the rest of the country tries to get the city back via infiltration of the underground, the political arena, or the like. Then, not only is it a problem of PvP, but of said country trying to 'do good' and get rid of the whole party. *shrugs*

I chose Korvosa as it is an independent city-state. Given it's location city vs. city isn't really feasible however that doesn't mean the PCs won't have to defend themselves against external pressures like Cheliax or other city-states.

I have a really neat idea for how to handle what happens when the PCs firmly control the city so I'm not very worried about 'end-game content' so to speak.

For those of you following along, I have poor impulse control so I've started throwing the game together out of an old placeholder game I had recently deleted.

link to another game


I caveat this by saying that I am NOT actively looking for players at this time as I still have months of prep work to finish. BUT for you eager beavers you can keep an eye on things as I develop the game further and begin preparing your characters/RTJs as well as ask questions etc.

Fascinating. I am of a mind to apply. I will look it over in detail tomorrow. :)

Best of luck with the prep praguepride. It sounds like a great game, but a heck of a lot of work to pull off. I'll be keeping an eye on it and cheering you on. :)

Yes, most definitely good luck. I will put in when you get it up and running. ^^

Well...that went quicker then I was expecting! The game is pretty much set up now so feel free to start moving forward with your applications if you so desire.

In reply to The Dungeon Master (msg # 1):

Dunno. I have a few I'm playing with as GM with friends, but currently I kinda really want to play a gestalt game or something else high powered. Mostly because it seems like fun, and it's hard to find.

One thought I was throwing around is that everyone has to be gestalted with either vigilante, or a class with some kind of transformation feature. (Probably feats every level). Everyone plays superheros. With half the game being superhero escapades and half the game being kingmaker-esque organization building. Sadly I don't have time to run such a game.

In reply to The Dungeon Master (msg # 1):

I would also love a game where each person starts with an organization or town behind them, and the game follows players developing and interacting with organizations.

So, I'm looking for some Mythic action myself, playing a Magus Champion.

You probably already know, but in case you don't: Mythic inevitably and irrevocably shatters the fundamental system conceits of Pathfinder, essentially removing the rules system as a consideration - almost anywhere there is some kind of inherent limit you can break through it with a Mythic ability or feat or spell. You will by Tier 4-5 be able to easily annihilate Mythic enemies twice or higher your level in CR in a single round and it becomes impossible to maintain challenges or restrict your actions; the game transitions into something very much like freeform (diceless) roleplaying where you simply state what you're doing as a sort of democratic everyone-is-their-own-DM style of play.

This can be very fun, and a lot of people enjoy the way Mythic builds up to that rather than starting you there the way typical freeform games do (as well as the "epic" theme, whereas many freeform games are either out-and-out godhood or standard medieval fantasy where "epic" is generally out of reach). However if you don't know what you're getting into it can be disappointing or frustrating once the "Pathfinder" style gameplay starts to dissolve. Keep it in mind!

Twice my CR?! I wanna try that.

Is there anyone interested in solo adventures? I'm thinking of starting up another game to provide one-on-one GM/Player interactions and questing.

I am, depending on the type of adventure.

I am also.

The type of adventure is dependent on what the player wants, really. If they wanna do a high fantasy epic quest sort of deal, sure. If they want to be in a low-fantasy, low-magic 15pt buy survival horror, I can do that to. It's up to the player, like I said.

I'm running an early medieval/late dark ages technological level campaign on a homebrew world.  The PC's are discovering all the wonderful aspects of that time period, including it's sanitation.  One has already almost died to ameobic dysentery.  Any other good ideas to challenge them with?

Have them accused of being spies or witches or demon worshippers. Give em a taste of the pre-magna carta justice system

If they can read, where did they learn it from?
Taxes/Tolls "That is my bridge you are crossing!"
Language barriers/open hostility to certain races/religions
Mercenaries/Bandits
Holy days "Sorry, the guild is not doing business today as they are presenting a play."
Do they have permission to leave the farm if they are of a lower class?
Counterfeit coins/Lousy exchange rates.
Plague!

The Rogue is already on the cusp of enjoying the full "mercies" of the legal system,  After insulting the Lord Mayor's intellect, complaining to the mayor about what price was paid for him to be cured of Ameobic Dysentery, and openly trying to purchase poison in town.  Current politics saved him, but that won't last long if he continues on his current track.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:18, Tue 25 Apr 2017.

Being a player character does not make one immune from consequences.  If it pisses off the player, then suggest that perhaps they should be more of a team player next time.

No.  The player is good.  Just new, and learning.

I've seen games where modern day characters have been transported to a fantasy world; but has anyone tried the opposite?  Perhaps Pathfinder characters have been living for the last decade in the modern world, keeping hidden from society, and fighting in a secret war.

Would D20 modern rules be needed?  Or could this effectively be run using just Pathfinder?

In reply to Pookaking (msg # 110):

I think it mostly depends on how you want your game to feel. If the Pathfinder characters still have full access to their magical abilities, or are still hardened warriors used to fighting enourmous monsters and impossible odds, definitely use Pathfinder.

If, however, the mages' power has diminished due to the lesser amount of magical energy in the modern world, and the fighters have become softer living with modern convenience, definitely D20 Modern.

Another interesting idea, which might be something of a compromise, would be use Shadowrun rules. The heroes still have plenty of magic, but are also more adapted to modern technology. Just limit access to things like cybernetics and the like.

Keep in mind that shadowrun characters are equivalent to at least mid-level pathfinder characters and the system is BRUTAL but otherwise would work pretty nicely.

In reply to praguepride (msg # 112):

True. Shadowrun combat is QUITE lethal, especially if you're not prepared for it. Personally, I like it, but it's definitely not for everybody.

Actually, that's what d20 modern does.   It's the campaign idea where you can play elves, dwarves, and the like instead of just humans.

In reply to Isenax (msg # 107):

Bear in mind, trial by combat was an accepted legal argument. I, uh, actually am in an international medieval recreation group. I can give you LOTS of hints. :)

Been thinking about running a game where it's the modern world, on earth, but the (electric) lights hAve been turned off. If you're familiar with S.M. Stirling "Dies the Fire" series, it's basically the concept of that. More or less.

Wasn't there an NBC series about that for a year or two? It's an interesting idea to say the least. What are all the implications of the sudden loss of electricity on a society that has become so dependent on it.

In reply to triggersadness (msg # 117):

The amount of implications is sheer ly mind boggling. Everything from mass starvation to lack of transportation to mass unemployment to loss of ability to manufacture goods to a return to more seditary lifestyles for a few and more backbreaking lifestyles for most of humanity. (The ones that live anyway.)

All very true, but the most painful in the long and short term would be the lack of public utilities and the lack of modern medicine.  For though we would still have the knowledge of modern medicine, without electricity to power the various devices and machines, there would be no additional supplies of medication, no lights or electric tool for surgery, no x-rays, sonograms, cat scans, etc.

Well...yes. Those exact reasons are why I said mass starvation for the utilities, and mentioned the die off in the (for the ones that live) comment.

Hello everyone.

Crazy crossover idea time:

Im considering restarting a Kingmaker game I ran live, here. My twist on it was that I had a nation of Tieflings appear in Northern Brevoy 50 years prior to game start who had literally freed themselves from hell, with the help of Glorantha's Orlanth, who had beaten the shit out of Asmodeus in the process of escape. Orlanth and his ragged, beaten Lightbringers get trapped in the Nine Hells but connect with humans who are enslaved thralls of the lords of hell. Orlanth and said tieflings work together to escape. Orlanth and his Lightbringers go on to complete the Lightbringers quest, and now a nation of 50,000 barbarian storm worshipping Tieflings who do not take shit are living in Brevoy, with the PCs having a mandate to help these refugees build a new home. The King of Brevoy employeed these guys as mercenaries but things were crowded and these folks wanted their own lands. Needless to say, Asmodeus will do anything to have revenge on the Glorantha's god of freedom and storms, and the other powers of Golarion look on nervously at outworlder deities who come from an alien world but who offer great power and meaning from those who explore their myths. Some, like Sarenrae, fully ally with the Thunderer and his tribe. The Pathfinder Society takes on Glorantha's God of Adventurers as their official patron, because the Society, like the Storm God, are freebooters and adventurers and heroes at heart.

For more info on Orlanth and Glorantha - http://www.princeofsartar.com/...the-flame-of-sartar/

This is still Golarion. The royal house of Brevoy would still love a buffer kingdom set up in the Stolen Lands, and my old PCs came from a variety of backgrounds.

I'd love to start this again.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:59, Thu 27 July 2017.

So you're swapping out the bandits with Tiefling Mercenaries?

I'd definitely be interested in this and it would be fun to bring one of the Aasimar varieties to this game, would you be allowing those?

No, the bandits and the Stag Lord are still the same. I'm adding in a nation of Tiefling refugees who are escaped from hell who are part of the bigger back story.

Ah ok. That makes sense. I am still intrigued.

I'd definitely be interested as well!

and my axe!

I'm always down for Kingmaker :D

I'd be down for that as well. The question is whether I'd be a fighter or a cleric.



Randomly, for anyone interested, I've started putting together the "Modern Life collapses" game. Just started, mind you, but it's slowly coming together.

In reply to Coridan (msg # 121):

Sounds like heaps of fun!

In reply to Coridan (msg # 121):

I'd be up for it too :)

In reply to Isenax (msg # 104):

"May we we see your Letters of Marche and Reprisal, and what court do you plan to use to condemn the Enemy of the Estates property to your keeping?"

In reply to Coridan (msg # 121):

Hey there,

New to the group, but would definitely be interested in this, especially if it didn't start out right from the beginning. Unfortunately I've played through the first few encounters of Kingmaker about 4 time, but have never really gotten to the meat of the kingdom building, which is what interests me most. And I particularly like the addition of the tieflings. I would perhaps be interested in playing one!

Adapting classic RPGs to Pathfinder


Yeah yeah, not a new idea. But no one can tell me that a set of Castlevania dungeon runs wouldn't be a great event. Or using Diablo to help plan out a partial Abyss dive.

I think the key is simplistic mechanics, a complicated magic system or something will kinda mess up the feel of it all. (Saw something similar to this with a game meant to be like Ar Tonelico over on mythweavers)

If you want to run something akin to Diablo, you should strongly enforce the rules on visibility and light sources, and discourage characters with darkvision. Part of the appeal of the original game was having critters emerge from the darkness.

There was an old 3.0 D&D book that was an official conversion doc for Diablo-to-D&D. I'll see if I can dig it up, and see if it had any other useful advice.

You could also do adventure sets like Temple of Elemental Evil (which my wife and I are currently doing) using Pathfinder rules.

I have always dreamed about converting the Ruins of Undermountain to the PF rules....lol

There was actually more than one, and I have several of them in PDF version. IF your Google-fu is even mediocre, you can certainly find them in the same format.

I feel like D&D 4 is "Diablo D&D" which is why there was very minimal fluff and every class had a multitude of abilities that were "X use per encounter" etc.

Heck, you could probably just run 4E as-is with minimal changes to recreate the feel of it. Though magic items wouldn't have the whole 'prefix-item-suffix' thing going on, not without kit-bashing something for it.

Not impossible, though.

The impression I got from the little bit of 4th ed I saw was that it was heavily influenced by MMOs.  The emphasis on character roles and even the names of those roles seemed to be largely lifted from MMORPGs.  It was also the start of their attempts to be more accessible in general it seems, mostly due to simplifying things.

It was, and it did, and it didn't. 4E was a very tactical game, with heavy emphasis on miniatures, map features, and placement. At least, the combat part. It also had the most compact skill system at the time, akin to the Unchained "Consolidated Skills" option.

Really, for what it was meant to be -- a tactical RPG with a low initial learning curve -- it did the job admirably. It just didn't feel like D&D; I still advocate for it (for players inclined toward what it does), but I've always felt that it might have been received better if they'd given it a different name.

But let's not derail the discussion too much, we're talking about converting classic games like Castlevania or Diablo. (And, yes, I found the 2E/3E Diablo conversions. They really tried hard to force the game's elements into the tabletop rules.)

Iterating a request I have in GMs wanted

 I've got a bit of an itch to attempt a fairly high-power Pathfinder witch as something of a trickster, aiming to eventuallly use the silly op grand hexes to mess with a world as she attempts to overturn established and oppressive orders whilst ascending to mythic greatness. I'd like to use more skill points and hexes than default, and maybe also automatic bonus progression (I like the full +2 level progression, but still allow for other, supplemental items to exist, just nothing that grants a bonus covered by abp?. I've considered possibly a witch/witch gestalt (ie doubling up on class features and hexes and spells. might go for a spontanious archetype  since I favor spontanious casters)

Not opposed to other players, but I'm eager to go for more potent than normal play.

I posted this in the GMs wanted section but would any of you awesome GMs out there be willing to host a group of Vigilantes? And would anyone else be interested in trying out the vigilante class with me?

I'm also perfectly happy to try to play a vigilante in a solo game if there's a GM itching to do that.

What's the Vigilante class?  And why does it need a class?  It's just a profession, and that isn't even accurate since it's just an adjective to describe someone who breaks the law in order to enforce it.

I have a Vigilante NPC in my game.  He was created by the Paladin PC, after she failed to deliver on a promise to bring his daughter's killer to justice.  His daughter was murdered (for unknown reasons) by a (fallen) Paladin of Tyr.

"You Paladins are all the same.  All talk, no action.  You think you're so morally superior to everyone.  But at the end of the day, you're just another coward with a fancy sword you stole from some crypt or temple and ridiculous looking armor.  Screw you, hero.  I'm just a nobody, but if I was a somebody, I'd kill you myself."

It's a fairly Batman esque class featuring dual identities. Pretty neat.

Sure it could just be a profession, but so could hunter. Like the ranger, the vigilante class expands on the theme and does it well! I really like it, chose from full BAB or full (vigilante special version) sneak attack progression (or spells etc with archetypes) and get many, many talents. Half of them combat oriented, the rest are for social stuff! The vigilante is not built for a dungeon crawl, but for campaigns with good social opportunities (I recommend Curse of the Crimson Throne!) since it gets so much stuff that really only matters in social situations. And the combat talents are a great boost for the character building, you can really develop your modus operandi :) And take more "simple" stuff such as wear armor without penalties, or stuff that is again built for a more social campaign (bonus to attack someone that considers you an ally, or a special maneuver to knock someone out then drag them into the shadows and hide them, etc).

I've got one vigilante pc in the Curse campaign I'm dming, and he had a lot of fun when he (when creating a new character after dying on 3rd level) hid his true identity (an npc they knew) and only appeared in his vigilante identity, while instructing me how to play the "npc" when the players encountered him.

Hmmm.  That dual identity thing sounds like it could prove interesting.  But I'm not sold on everything else.  Not that I think it's bad or terrible or whatever.  It's just...  I'm just a very Keep It Simple Stupid type of GM and player.  When it comes to Pathfinder, it's biggest flaw (to me) is the whole Combat Maneuver and Combat Maneuver Defense thing.  That is literally nothing more than an unnecessary extra layer of complication.  I prefer to complicate things with the story, by morality, etc.  I don't need extra classes and things like that to drive me bonkers.  :/

You're Lawful Good but want a Dragon mount?  That's fine.  It's going to be a Green Dragon.  Now what do you do when it eats a couple elf kids that thought it would be a good idea to poke it with sticks while you were attending a lord's ball?  Figure that one out smarty pants!  You're a sorceress who can blow things up by snapping your fingers and your only social talent lies in browbeating and intimidation?  Okay.  Now try that with a beholder.  Let's see who comes out on top, since you know, it's got a giant anti-magic field staring right at you.  Oh, you're a bad ass demon chick who betrayed your Zhentarim leaders after botching a rescue mission and having a change of heart?  That's fine.  There's now a 10K bounty on your head and a standing bonus of an additional 3.5K for returning with your head or signature weapons.  5K for both.  15K is a lot of gold.  Paranoid much?

It's been my experience that a 'less is more approach' works wonders these days where everyone wants to be a tiefling (gag), Drizzt clone (hurl), or gnomish alchemist/magus/trickster (facepalm).

I'm trying to come around and step out of the days of being a dinosaur when elf and dwarf were literally their own class.  I'm trying to shake off the memories of THAC0, and I really do want to keep an open mind towards the dwarf Rogue/Gunslinger but it's just soooo hard sometimes.  And I never, ever, ever seem to get to play in a game that lasts long enough (let alone accomplishes enough) to see the dynamics of these alternate classes or what fun they can really be.  -I- have thought it would be kinda neat to try my hand at the Inquisitor class.  I had thought that an Inquisitor with a splash into Fighter would do well in a mid-high level game that was either dungeon crawl or political, and would work well as a solo or group character.

So in summary, yes, I see the theory behind the vigilante class.  But in practice?

In reply to JediMaster007 (msg # 146):

I feel you! I like to keep things simple as well, fighter being my favourite class ;) But I like it when players are able to gain cool things through the rules (making it happen through the story is of course important too, but that takes a) the power away from player or b) negotiating with the gm, balancing throughout the party etc). And it's hard for physical combatants to gain such cool things through the rules, I find it easier for spellcasters etc. Vital Strike does not nearly add as much to the character of the character, as fireball can.
Although a vigilante can for sure be over-the-top exotic.

Someone after my heart with the Fighter class.  The most (criminally) underrated class in the history of the game, yet quite arguably the most important if you have a proper DM that makes you account for spell components, uses racial prejudices, and takes the scenery / tactical advantages into consideration.  But again, when it comes to a Fighter, the trick isn't to be a one-trick pony that goes all the way down one specific tree of feats and has one really awesome 'spin move.'  Your DM, if doing things correctly, will literally stump you by putting you in a position where your one awesome attack is worthless, much like the spellcaster face to face with a beholder.

You gotta be the Golf Club type of fighter.  A Fighter who can (and will) KA & TN in EVERY fight is the one you want at your side.  Dealing with Barbarians?  Turtle up and let those knuckleheads tire themselves out and then hit them like a bazooka.  Dealing with a group of drow who dropped a darkness bomb on you?  Blind Fighting FTW.  Got a horde of goblins or kobolds?  Well that's why you've got weapons in both hands.  Sure, the Ranger -MIGHT- be a better archer... but they've spent their whole career getting to that point, while the Fighter can still pull out their mighty composite bow and hold their own, and will trounce them in melee combat.  Sure, the Monk -MIGHT- be a better unarmed combatant, but what idiot makes themselves an easy target by not wearing armor?  You sure you wanna do this Monkey boy?  I hit just as hard as you do, I know almost all of the same moves you do, except I'm harder to hit and I have something you don't - Oodles of health and staying power.  To put it mildly, Monk, you've got a glass jaw compared to me.  You don't have to be the best at any one thing to play an awesome fighter.  You just have to be good at them all and play support to the one guy (or girl) who does that particular style as their specialty.

Up to level 4, my feats on a fighter usually look like this...

Level 1: Improved Initiative
Level 1: Blind Fighting (Fighter Bonus)
Level 1: Improved Unarmed Strike (Human Bonus)
Level 2: Two Weapon Fighting (Fighter Bonus)
Level 3: Power Attack / Point Blank Shot
Level 4: Combat Expertise (Fighter Bonus)

I get a lot of questions from DMs who wonder why I 'splashed' all of the trees.  To which I respond... "Look at where that path leaves me.  I've opened the door to every style there is, so depending on how the game plays out, I can be prepared.  I've also got every type of situation you throw at me covered.  By level 10, I'll be the biggest combat beast in the party."

In reply to JediMaster007 (msg # 148):

That's very nice! And splashing a lot does help... The versatility in itself will be a part to emphasise when role playing the character, but I still feel like the feats aren't as useful in describing the development and richness of a character as many other things are. That's my point, which I may have been unable to describe properly - gaining cool role playing parts to your character through adding rule-wise advantages. Compare it to discoveries, new tiers of spells (which might be boring, but really holds the potential to pick spells that enrich the character concept), and vigilante talents (social and otherwise) for example.

Uh, okay.  I think I see what you're saying.  But my question to you is this.  Do you as a player need those tricks to be able to role play your character?  Maybe it's just me, but I don't seem to have any sort of trouble role playing the knowledge of feats and how to use them in scenes.  I'd actually have trouble with the "Aha!  Now I know this and that!" sort of role playing where the proverbial light bulb goes off when I get a new trick.

So who wants to setup and host a game just for Fighters and Vigilantes?  Maybe allow us 1 cleric.  We could totally do an A-Team thing like Jon Snow leading the group north of the Wall to capture a White Walker.  :D

In reply to JediMaster007 (msg # 150):

Not really in that way... In one game I'm playing now, I'm playing a gnome rogue/sorcerer arcane trickster. His natural gnome magic established him as a sorcerer in the eyes of some of my party mates at level one, even though he was rogue 1. Developing him as a sneaky, tricky rogue (arrogant former criminal loser, not lifting a finger for anything unless necessary) with magic that comes to him as easily as life itself is really helped by the variety of abilities available to him. Making him into the small-town hero he becomes in the beginning of rise of the runelords works well as he continuously becomes something new, learning new things that go well with the kind of person he is. I guess it's that development into a hero that feels harder to me without somewhat "flashy" stuff (an arcane trickster is not really a less-is-more character, although a nearly only core rulebook character is imo). I have a hard time seeing fighters getting them features with a heroic feel to them, to me it's more of a slow and powerful (through versatility or otherwise) advancement, improving what's already there rather than creating something new out of what's already there. In the end I guess the answer is yes, I prefer to have those sorts of tricks to, and feel when I have them that it's easier to, roleplay a <i>heroic</> character. And with a couple of levels, the character should become heroic.

If a GM is not willing to represent what I can do in the actual narrative with game mechanics, then it's not a game worth playing.

Single class games are an experiment I'd love to try.

I am a little lost on what you mean here. Would you be willing to clarify that statement?

The vigilante class is all about being Batman or Zorro. It even specifies up front that it probably isn't made for traditional campaigns and needs to be crafted around.

It's great for an "all or nothing" kind of game.

IN ADDITION it provides some great tools for GMs to run cool "Hannibal" style villains who are right under the heroes noses the whole time. Because of the dual identifies it allows mechanically for heroes to not be able to divine who the real villain is and allows a villain to do a whole bunch of mudererin while just only going "out for a powder".

Finally the vigilante class allows you to splash several different kinds of vigilantes. You can be a vigilante fighter or rogue or mage...kind of.

It's the difference between Zorro, Batman, and Dr. Strange or Green Lantern.

  The way I look at it the whole Ultimate Intrigue was to allow social combat rather then just physical.. along the lines of L5R or other Court inclusive Millieu.

If I want Intrigue and 'shadow' combat, I'll stick with the game and system that does it better than anyone else... WoD's V:tM.  I can, and will, out elder, out harpy, and out prince (let alone out archbishop) everyone else in this whole group, combined, every single time, and make it look easy.

No lie.

Back to the Vigilante.

Ok.  So basically, it isn't at all necessary and it doesn't really do anything that a clever DM / group of players can't or won't do anyway?  Dangit.  Best to stick to the Ninja + Fighter Gestalted into a single class.  Or at least a Multi-class Ranger / Fighter.  I was kind of hoping to see / hear that the class would do something unique and special that made it more than just a multi-class character.

I mean it does.  The "batman" version has some amazing abilities for stealthy combat. Basically you pop out of the shadows, kill a dude, drag him back into the shadows and nobody else notices anything.

You can't do that even as a ninja just because as soon as you initiate combat people will hear because of the low difficulty on perception checks (if a GM is playing RAW). Vigilante has specific abilities that reduce those perception checks.

The Assassin Prestige Class does that though.  And Perception checks are based on the environment and stealth.  That's why they are opposed.  Your scenario you're mentioning, in my book, is assuming there is no ambient noise, no heightened paranoia, no cover of darkness, and that the scrubs are actually on par with the Batman like character.

Such is almost never the case, and were it to actually be the case, 1) Batman is the wrong character since a focus on stealth and picking off one enemy at a time by luring them away are all but worthless and 2) You need a tank +/or blaster

Yeah...you can't make that claim at all honestly. That isn't something that you would know about everyone hear. I have certainly not played with you before in a game, so the idea that what the *player* has as skills is not within the scope of your knowledge.

Please, lets leave commentary about what you are or aren't better at than everyone else around outside of a discussion of games.

From the point of the silent me-nority, I agree with LJ.

The thing is "Vigilante" is just a name how you use the powers the class has is up to you.  And the Magical split personalty is really as far as I can see the heart of the class.



But what does that have to do with the desires of the PC and the links they have to their world, the people they care about, and systems that they are in.



Can I do something as a DM.. Sure. In first edition I created the "Secret Society" Circle.  It was a special form that included amulets that if you were a mundane [zero level] member of the society was wearing it and said your member name you magically would disappear to magic scrying looking for the "real" you.  But would appear to someone activily seeking the society member you.. if they knew the name.

I also created an Ultra-class Witch Major. offensively equal to a single player but defensively equal to a whole party.

  The witch vanished in their citadel lair, could use possession to scout or communicate through animals magically under cover of the animals identity.  or could create a menu of Avatars over time that each had their own form, and even classes.  but could only change their avatar in that lair.  or a new one if a week to month long ritual circle hex was done to move the old magical construct to a new place.
Each avatar was their own person magically speaking.

But just because I did it as a DM I don't see why I should object to someone creating a split personality class formally.
This message was last edited by the player at 01:08, Mon 11 Sept 2017.

Yes, the dual identity aspect of the Vigilante, is probably the key ability tied to the class.  Just like, potentially a hobbit could be a thief, without necessarily ever having been a thief.  I've played Rogues that were anything but criminal, but none the less were quite proficient with locks and combat anatomy.

The first time I skimmed through the class, it occurred to me that its abilities would have been quite useful in a Revolution style game.  I had played one such game, with revolutionaries trying to help right the things from a city whom had a evil mage take over after marrying into a family, and the rest dying or becoming infirmmed.

Being able to almost innately hide, due to a split identity would have been an asset to such a group.  It certainly could be quite useful in a campaign for good characters in some Cheliax occupied area.

It also makes for an interesting idea for a magically 'enhanced' multiple identities character whom might actually have multiple different motivations(alignments), and whom might not magically be able to be traced between identities.  Not completely new idea for me, but the idea that the different identities would magically be separate from a tracking sense is new/facinating to me.

Game Idea: vigilantes during Cheliax rebellion. Hell's Rebels meets French Revolution!

On a side note it was Curse of the Crimson Throne that formally introduced Vigilantes with Golarions first masked hero but it was never revisited.

I am running a solo vigilante game and it's quite fun. combat encounters at night, social encounters during the day. It really is like a Pathfinder version of Batman!

Not revisited, but reprinted! :D APs bound to (nearly only) one city are quite rare, right? Introducing a vigilante is harder without that commitment to the appropriate setting.

Which is also one of the issues I've run into with the "rogue" class.   Certain people, who seem to enjoy disrupting group play, use a rogue class as a sneaking, backstabbing troublemaker.

For True Dungeon there was a dungeon that the "rogues" were led down a side quest away from the rest of the group. If they solved the puzzle in the side room they could choose.

EITHER they could pick a treasure that the whole group would get (basically everyone gets to draw from a bag for a random treasure token) OR they could get a t-shirt that says "I backstabbed my party for this t-shirt!"

Naturally every party rogue left with a t-shirt :P

That's amazing.

So, kind of have an idea I'd like to spitball with you all. It is a game that, for the record, I'd like to play rather than run, as I'm already running a fairly player heavy game. M'kay, so here's the thought.


I'd like to play a game in which the players start a community, (I put it this way because I'm completely unfamiliar with the Kingmaker rules for that side of things, and I'm already in an adventure path for the the Kingmaker) in which we slowly build the town and start factions within the town, starting from gathering resources and building the first houses, shops, etc. I'm thinking players start as just themselves, and then build their factions around them as they gain levels and are able to start recruiting followers and such.

Players, of course, would be able to work together or have some (in game, not in OOC) PVP level stuff. Not really trying to kill each other, but vying for control of things.

If you haven't checked already, you should probably take a look through Ultimate Campaign.

One thing I do heavily is borrow mechanics from other games. Not necessarily other RPGs either. Find a game (of any kind) that has the feel of what you are looking for.

Let's say you wanted to do a big nation builder game, you could look at a game like Civilization and simplify it down to it's basic parts.

Scouts identify new land
Soldiers can fight and conquer other cities
Settlers can found new cities.

Create a random map and just straight up lift the tile points from Civ. Plains produce food, forests produce food and production, mountains produce production etc.

I'm not going to go all the way with this but I've found that to be a great way of filling in mechanics rather then custom brewing them entirely from scratch myself. Let someone else do the heavy lifting of "math" and you just tailor it to your game.

In reply to Hunter (msg # 169):

A very good idea. Thanks for the link above! Unfortunately, I don't really have the wherewithal to get the Ultimate Campaign :(


In reply to praguepride (msg# 170):

Yeah, I'm wanting to play the game, not run it (again, a player heavy game already being run), but that does sound like something doable. I have a sort of game that I put together for tabletop stuff that works somewhat similar to what you're suggesting.

You can check the Paizo SRD.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

Thank you!

I'd still rather play this one time through, but it'd still be fun.

I'm not going to run it butttt....

How about a big Technology vs. Magic game. Basically the idea is that a group of clever wizards/alchemists/atificers etc. came together and created all sorts of fabulous technologies.

Magic items (or technological ones) that produce food, water, cures, and free food. They set up these stations in every major city almost completely cutting down on poverty, disease and giving everyone a decent standard of living. Even the poorest citizen can go up to a station and get a warm meal and cures for their diseases.

Society grew and adapted around these idea of limitless supplies. Farms were abandoned, clergies went empty and even worship in the walking, talking gods went lax as people realized that these machines had more impact on their day-to-day then the gods with their unending war.

THEN 3 things happend

1) Agents of evil sabotaged all the machines in a major city simultaneously. The creators of the machines were either dead or outside the plane of existence and nobody else was prepared to replace a dozen of them at the same time. Anarchy descended on the city as citizens began to starve.

2) Neglected gods decided to raise up crusades against these machines for weakening the order of things. Prompted primarily by gods of commerce and suffering, even some goodly gods were unhappy about this affront to the natural order of things.

3) In response to #1 and #2 an authoritative milita rose up to first defend the machines and then worship them as the new gods. This massive swelling of faith allowed a new god to be born, one that is purely technological and has no real roots in humanity. (I'm thinking that his clergy basically act as divine flavors of alchemists).

Would the setting allow for casters other than those that ran the food machines?

Sure. I mean otherwise it would be bog standard setting but perhaps with more technology?

To put my thoughts into Pathfinder terms it would be Curse of the Crimson Throne or Hell's Rebels type game but with Iron Gods technology scattered through it.

Then I'd be willing to play in that, depending on how the posting rate was set up.

That sounds like a lot of fun to me as well!

How do you all feel about hex crawl campaigns?

In reply to karuoun (msg # 179):

I generally like them, but there have been a few I've been involved in that fail due to how long it takes to do those kinds of things.

What is a hex crawl?  Is that some form of dungeon crawl?

Where I've seen it used is as part of a campaign where you are exploring a large area, usually broken down into hexes so that you can see where you've done your exploring to date.

Think Kingmaker's overland exploration...

So, you're offering to run Kingmaker, right??? :)

In reply to BasicSet77DM (msg # 184):

Gapes, and steps back, grabs a bucket of popcorn and waits to see what happens.

I've been reading a fair amount of ancient modules from when I began running Dungeons and Dragons in the late 80s/ early 90s.  Modules set in the Grand Duchy of Karameikos.  I remember that these modules made me fall in love with running games - and to hate it too.  I wondered why.

I am a very poor amateur fiction writer in my spare time, I am studying the art of crafting a story.  To do this, I've been looking at the work of Dan Harmon (writer for Rick and Morty, Community) and his work in Harmonquest.  He has a specific structure to his stories that make them compelling - and I have found myself realising that this can be adapted to make my Dungeons and Dragons games dynamic - less location based, more based on the needs of narrative.

What I would like to do is to combine the setting of Karameikos with the ideas contained in certain generic and Mystara-focused modules to create interesting adventures for a group.  My problem is that I'm not so familiar with Pathfinder rules (though I am familiar with DnD 3.5) and I'd need players who could cope with my occasional requests for aid during combats.  I know of, and use, the PFSRD as well as possessing copies of the rules themselves.

So, I would love to find out if this sort of game sounds at all interesting, first of all, and if anyone would be willing to be my 'Expert' for the crunch of fights for a few encounters, until I am a little more confident in the rules. Also, would ditching the endless dungeon crawls that the old modules provide to create more 'narrative' themed plots and scenes be enjoyable?  I welcome any constructive feedback.

Thank you.

I've been playing in a GURPS game based on classic D&D modules for over nine years now.  It has a very strong sense of narrative even during dungeon crawling.  For instance, one series of adventures followed a gnomish infantryman in his trek to escape the Underdark, and those adventures would fit right in with the Odyssey.  (Perhaps a touch hyperbolic, but not too far from the truth.)  For some reason, it's easier to pull this off in GURPS than in D&D or Pathfinder, but a PF game that employed that sense of narrative would be excellent and would certainly fit in with published modules.  I'd love to play, but I'm hardly a PF expert, and I'd be useless in helping with rule clarifications.

Sounds interesting, I started mid 3.5 with a group who had been playing a long time so I never really experienced modules.  I've never gm'd Pathfinder (though I plan to this year) but I am pretty familiar with rules and decent at looking stuff up.

Slowly putting together a game where players build a commercial empire (as big or small as they wish to grow to). It's a bit number crunchy in some aspects, but is geared toward players being able to develop any kind of business that they wish to have, from mercenary companies to being the largest gem cutter in the world, etc.


Is that something people seem interested in?

In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 189):

That sounds interesting. what kind of setting? It would be fun on ships in an area like the Mediterranean. Or maybe as a Gypsy band wandering around.

In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 189):

Is it intended to be run from within Pathfinder?  Is your plan to utilize anything out of the Pathfinder Downtime rules?  Or is your plan to have it really separate from Pathfinder?

I'm thinking of running a stone age style campaign.  Moderate fantasy aspects, but limited classes, weapons, and armor and only using the "Primitive man" race.  I'm Thinking I want to focus mostly on survival, claiming resources, and maybe building a village.  Looking at taking a lot of ideas from the Realm of the Mammoth Lords.  Lots of mega fauna and prehistoric beasties to hunt and watch out for.
I'm not aiming for historical accuracy. A "fantasy stone age" style setting, if you will.

Just curious if there is interest here.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:20, Tue 15 May 2018.

In reply to Lord_Johnny (msg # 189):

I have been wanting to check out the ultimate campaign rules if that is what you are using?

Not a game I'm planning on running any time soon but an amusing idea I had:

Everyone's a bard! The players are part of a band that is trying to go on tour but get roped into adventure. I'm thinking an awful lot of AP's and modules could fit into this... imagine Serpent's Skull as a bunch of shipwrecked minstrels :P

Every character can specialize in a different instrument and given the wide range of archetypes should have a bit of variety enough to muddle through most adventures

In reply to praguepride (msg # 194):

I think there are many great “everyone’s a x” combinations - rarely do I see groups put together with any other vision of wholeness than “need tank, support, healing, damage”. ‘Everyone is capable of stealthing properly’ <- even just that would add a lot to both story and facing encounters. “Everyone is family” - how about a Rise of the Runelords starting off in little Sandpoint where a whole family of siblings and cousins gets tangled up in the mess, perhaps the GM has old granny be a curious lady in her eighties, constantly walking into the dangers threatening Sandpoint? Everyone’s a sorcerer? The bloodlines add more excitement than the wizard schools do, and with arcane magic the group can become versatile enough to handle the many low-level encounters as well as the big bad :)

You're right. Everyone's a fighter(type) soldier in the same mercenary company. Everyone's a wizard part of a wizard school. Everyone's a thief in a thieves guild etc.

I guess I was thinking about something like The Green Room where the PCs are just trying to be a band but are thrown into the middle of a crazy adventure and are kind of forced to become heroes but yeah...everyone's an X are all kind of like that.

Most fun thing I ever saw on rPoL: Everyone's a farmer. You're all level 1 commoners! Now let's go fight some goblins :P

Would anyone be interested in a pure RNG character creation game? You roll 4d6 drop lowest in order so you dont know what you will play. Then using background section from Ultimate Campaign you randomly generate your backstory. I was  thinking might be a change of pace to not come in knowing what you will play. It has a real old school feel to it where high scores are treasured as rare and low scores are seen as RP opportunities instead of deal breakers.

I am up for that idea.

Sounds interesting. Maybe with a caveat that you get to reroll if your modifiers are +1 or less.

I would love to see someone tackle having their highest stat be a 9. I would also love that opportunity tp play a schmuck and make him a hero

The concept of investing time and energy into an RNG generator is almost a perfect encapsulation of the things I find most horrifying about real life and seek to escape most ardently in roleplaying games. I've never understood the idea of low stats or weak characters as roleplaying "opportunities," their defining relationship to the average is that they literally have less opportunity. Less impact, less narrative power, they fade; the old school paradigm was you tossed your sheet together in a second, threw it into a meatgrinder, and when it inevitably died you had a second or third or fourth sheet ready to go, you wrote it up during the DM's bathroom break. Nothing was a dealbreaker because nothing was important.

I'm sure the game will do well and I wish you every success, I just don't get it. Won't get it, I suppose.

True. And in level 0 grinders you are playing up to a half dozen characters each. I think the appeal for me is the challenge. It is easy to be a hero if you are as strong as Hercules or as fast as Hermes or invincible as Achilles but I like an underdog story. I think it is far more memorable when Bob the Sheepherder gets a lucky Crit and kills a dragon rather then Valor the Uberman just beating everything into submission with math.

However the BIGGEST appeal is the unknown. You could roll high. You could roll low. You don’t know until you do! I love RNG as an aide to creativity because it provides constraints. It forces you out of your comfort zone and lets you experience a game and character with fresh eyes.

While I do enjoy the challenge of playing a weak character, I love magic users too much to be willing to do that under Pathfinder (since you need a 11 just to cast lvl 1 spells, and a magic user without spells isn't a magic user). Actually, if you add the racial +2 to a 9 that might just work...

Mind you, by putting all you ability increase in that casting stat and using the best headband of XXX you can afford you can pretty much manage to cast all the spells you have access to, so by level 8 or so you don't really have a weak character anyway.

Honestly, I have just never played a game that scaled from level 1 to epic, so I would love to check it off my bucket list, at least once.

In reply to Tomokun (msg # 204):

That would be awesome but in play by post it'd probably take 35-50 years.

In reply to bottleface (msg # 205):

Only took 6 to go from 5 to 12 and complete an arc! :P

I'm going to be 37 this year... I got the time!

Would there be interest for a game like this?

• semi-gestalt: every odd level is gestalt occult + martial, every even level is either occult or martial
• starting level: 1, create your mercenary PCs as martial-only members of the Gray Crow Company, as capable scouts (occult class at level 1 will come later as part of the story)
• the country itself is gritty low-level, but the PCs are much-larger-than-life heroes
• it is a setting where using occult powers is feared and hated, so the PCs must be careful when / where they use their abilities
• there is no arcane or divine magic in the setting, at all
• there's no gunpowder, steampower, electric power in the setting, it is low-tech
• the story is a mystery story, advanced by uncovering clues that are supposed to add up eventually, which will trigger more question and seemingly disparate clues

In reply to greenvoid (msg # 207):

That sounds like it could be interesting.  Id be willing to try it

So, I have an idea for a game and I'd love some feedback.

It would be a human-only game with magic and evils that seek to enslave people, set in a fantasy Transylvania (like Ravenloft, I'm guessing, though I've not seem any Ravenloft materials). The characters would be guardians of the Faith who work for the Theocrat and fixing supernatural problems that plague the villages and people, from undead to ancient curses and unspeakable elder evils from beyond the cosmos.  Complicating this, the Boyars and Vivodes of the region with their petty infighting and politicking and a potential rebellion against the Pious Tsar's new regime.

I only have the Pathfinder Core rules, so I'd just be using that initially - opening up other content as the game progressed (as PDFs mount up).

I envision running it like a Sandbox, with areas to explore, hooks to snap up and factions to be interacted with.  It would also have a plot thread that I'd use to move the party around from place to place (i.e. the Theocrat sends them on a mission - or the enemies they've made make more trouble elsewhere).

I love horror, and this would be a horror-fantasy, I think.

Would anyone be up for a game like this?

Sounds intriguing Metalmonkee.  Just wish all of my current character ideas were buildable using core only.  Bet I could come up with something though.
This message was last edited by the player at 12:27, Sun 26 May 2019.

d20pfsrd.com has all the rules if you don't have the books yet.  However, you may still want some limits as it can be a bit overwhelming with all the choice.

Sounds cool.

So I have an idea for a game setting but I have no idea what to do with it.

The core concept is “What if Conjuration Magic is really really bad?”

The general consensus in D&D and Pathfinder is that when you summon something the magic just takes its form and then it disapates. it was never real to begin with so it doesn’t matter if it dies horribly....but what if that isn’t how it works?

What if instead you’re pulling a creature from some other place and when they die or the spell expires they “snap back” to where they were?

What if that cord breaks and they shoot past their original spot?

Basically it is the “end of the line” when it comes to the planes. A combination of Planescape’s Sigil with Thor: Ragnarock’s Sakaar with MtG’s Ravnica built on top of it.

It is a planar dead zone for creatures that are summoned but through some unknown reason get dumped here instead of going back in time. The entire “plane’” is one closed city built on top of the ruins of other cities. It gets creatures from every dimension (so you have beholders and anything else from any other setting you want to throw in there). Once you go here you can’t go back. Planar shifting magic doesn’t function, you just end up back in the middle of the city.

The city is divided up into wards and guilds. The major wards are the Red Ward (for humanoids), Green Ward (for goblins/orcs/giants), Beast Ward (intelligent beasts), the Scale Ward (dragons and reptiles) and the Dead Ward (undead). There are also the outsider wards, one each for the four major groups: CG Emperyials, LG for the Celestials, LE for the Infernals, CE for the Abyssals.

Everyone has to get along because you never know what is going to be dumped next and everyone has to work together to survive. There isn’t really “farmable land” or resources so when dead bodies from dead summons get dumped it gets processed. In the sewers there are vast mushroom farms and in the skies there are floating platforms that operate as farm fields for exotic seeds from across the dimensions.

The city is further divided by occupation with powerful guilds that keep everyone alive and running and work together to keep balance.

Guild include:
1) Agriculture & Sanitation - Only intelligent beings arrive here so everyone is food. Humans eat dead magical beasts while magical beasts eat dead humans. Or mushrooms...always mushrooms. Sanitation is vital as it is the only source of farmable soil for both the mushrooms that keep the masses fed as well as the flying fields where the rich and powerful can eat non-mushroom based fruits and vegetables.

2) Construction - The divide between wards is always changing because you never know what’s going to be dumped next. Suddenly in some plane a war in the heavens means a huge influx of celestials and demons. The next for whatever reason a thousand centaurs are dumped down. Construction keeps things maintained and operational and builds housing and utilities for new arrivals. It is also vital in the creation fo raw resources. there are no trees to cut, no mountains to mine so everything has to be created through Construction mages.

3) Removals -The other side of the coin. Old structures need to be torn down and the vital building materials recycled.

4) Law - The watch and the judges and th prisons that keep civilization civil. Very difficult brokering peace between dwarves and goblins, good and evil dragons that have to suddenly live next to one another etc.

5) Entertainers - On the surface they are artists, actors, poets etc. but there is a very close relationship between them and crime. Being an artist in a rough place like this is difficult so they also incoporate thieves and pickpockets. While the patrons are out watching the show, their shops and homes are empty. the city takes an enlightened view on crime, thinking it is inevitable so better to have a guild control it so it doesn’t get too disruptive.

6) Technologists - Using magic and mechanics from an infinite number of worlds to improve efficiencies. The setting would be akin to Eberron steam punk levels with things like power plants and electric lighting. Their big contribution are the giant sun orbs that provide light for both inhabitants and the crops.

7) Naturalists - Provide a lot of welfare and social services. Hospitals, medicine, spiritual needs etc.

8) Immigration - Primarily run by the Undead, this group welcomes new arrivals and helps them get settled.

I have this vision of an army of skeletons welcoming a dragon to it’s new home/prison. Skeletons because they are cheap and replaceable fo when you get a Red dragon that decides it wants to lay waste and rage for awhile before listening to reason. Manticore bankers or goblins and dwarven foremen arguing about the best way to reinforce a sagging power line.

The issue is I don’t know what kind of game to run. Maybe it’s a smorgasboard where everyone is part of a different ward/guild. Or maybe I do a “watchman” game where they’re all part of the law trying to solve a murder or keep order. Or maybe it’s a game about a family or mercenary group or...you see my point. I can do a million things with this setting and I am having trouble deciding what to do with it.

An interesting concept to say the least. Could be fun for someone that loves to 'raise dead'.

In reply to praguepride (msg # 213):

Sounds awesome. I'd definitely go with "you're mercenaries/cops" trying to solve mysteries and crimes as a great starting point.

Such a city would be a metropolis like no other with limitless possibilities.

Honestly what if the Plane wasn't a dumping ground so to speak what if it was a testing ground instead. Basically the plane has a secret McGuffin that when dealt with it resets and alters it's defenses so that it is never the same twice. But the point of the McGuffin is to determine who gets to be real. So that the River of Souls never dries up and only the worthy can become the next batch of souls.

One of the (many) twists I envisioned is that with all the souls trapped in this plane necromancy isn't just viewed as acceptable but is quite powerful and one of the strongest "factions" as it were is the Dead Ward.

Necromancy and Evocation are considered the "cool" magics, necromancy because there are so many undead walking around and mindless undead servants are a key resource (dragons getting their chamber pots scrubbed by skeleton maids :P) and Evocation because evocation powers are used to power the main sources of energy to grow crops and provide lighting.

Conjuration is heavily regulated. No living creatures are allowed to be conjured. The city would outright ban it if it wasn't for things like Wall of Iron/Wood/Stone being the key sources of building supplies.

I like the idea the group is part of a mercenary company. Not "the law" but a troubleshooter lodge if you would. While the Wards and Guilds run the city you don't have to actually be a member or loyal to any of them.

So I've got the bug to spin up another game but I'm unsure what I want to run. I know I want it to be in Pathfinder 2E as I am really digging the system and I want it to catch on here on rPoL.

I don't normally do this but I'm going to be doing an interest check as well as a vote because I'm torn about what to run. So if you are interested in playing in a 2E game shoot me a PM. Here are the options I am thinking of:

• A 2E conversion of Rise of the Runelords
  
  quote:

  From the idyllically peaceful coastal town of Sandpoint to an ancient lost city at the top of the world, Rise of the Runelords takes a party of adventurers from 1st to over 18th level and delves into the mysteries of Varisia's ancient past. Millennia ago, the powerful empire of Thassilon ruled the land, dominated by despotic runelords who maintained their power through harnessing the power of rune magic. Thought gone forever, the workings of Thassilon are not so far beneath the surface and one of the runelords plans a return to power. Only the brave adventurers stand in his way.
  
  
• A 2E conversion of Skulls & Shackles
  
  quote:

  There's adventure to be had on the high seas when a group of press-ganged strangers seizes a ship and becomes embroiled in the plots and politics of the Shackles—an infamous island chain dominated by pirate warlords. But as these new swashbucklers make names for themselves, rival scalawags, enemy navies, legendary sea monsters, and the infamous Hurricane King himself seek to see them walk the plank. Who will survive when there's glory to plunder?
  
  
• A 2E conversion of Giantslayer
  
  quote:

  Deep in the Mindspin Mountains, a storm giant warlord known as the Storm Tyrant has seized control of a cloud castle and an Orb of Dragonkind, and is gathering an army of giants from across western Avistan—first to bring the orc hordes of Belkzen under his banner, then to conquer the neighboring realms. Heroes defending the human town of Trunau from an orc raid discover that the attack is just a precursor to the Storm Tyrant's larger plans. Working their way through an abandoned border fort, an ancient giant temple, the tomb of an undead frost giant, and an elite fire giant training facility beneath a dormant volcano, the heroes eventually take the fight to the Storm Tyrant himself inside his flying fortress. Can the giant army be defeated before it can conquer the human lands of the Inner Sea, or will all of Avistan bow down in fealty to the Storm Tyrant?
  
  
• A 2E conversion of Shattered Star
  
  quote:

  From the ashes of Thassilon, an ancient power shall rise again!
  The ancient empire of the runelords may be long dead, yet the legacy of Thassilon continues to haunt the frontier realm of Varisia. With the rise of one runelord only narrowly thwarted, Korvosa reeling after the curse of the Crimson Throne nearly brought the city to its knees, and Riddleport rebuilding after a close call with a falling star, the people of Varisia fear that the greatest threat to their land has yet to play its hand. When agents of the newest Pathfinder Society lodge in Magnimar learn of a fragmented artifact scattered throughout the lands of old Thassilon, it falls to a new band of heroes to step in and gather up the seven fragments of this Shattered Star. For if the greatest prize of Thassilon's first ruler cannot save Varisia... what can?
  
  
• A custom homebrew setting I described above (Planescape meets Ravnica where the party are the senior officers of a mercenary company.
  
• A game set in the old D&D Mystara setting about carving out a kingdom in the wilderness. This would NOT just be a port of kingmaker though, it would use very different rules for the kingdom and the overall storyline would be much more linear and focused and less "here's a map, go explore hex by hex. This will be a throwback to older D&D style games where you clear out the wilderness, build a castle and then attract followers etc.
  
• 2E Adventure Path: Extinction Curse
  
  quote:

  Come one, come all! Humble performers become leaders of the Circus of Wayward Wonders when tragedy strikes. But as these heroes lead their motley band of performers and roustabouts around the Isle of Kortos, they uncover a sinister plot to exterminate life from the Starstone Isle. The dead god Aroden may be gone, but his legacy lives on, as do his old enemies who would destroy the wonders he raised from the sea. Spectacle meets savagery as the heroes strive to stop the Extinction Curse!
  
  
  
• 2E Adventure Path: Agents of Edgewatch
  
  quote:

  Amid the hustle and bustle of the world-famous centennial Radiant Festival, the guards of the so-called Edgewatch precinct must take down Absalom's sickest serial killers, brashest bank robbers, and cruelest criminal masterminds in order to ensure the festival's success and the safety of Absalom’s citizens. After a string of seemingly unrelated crimes is revealed as part of a much larger criminal plot, the members of one select squad find themselves at the center of things and must put their badges on the line to prevent the city from falling into chaos. By the end of this six-part monthly Adventure Path, there's just one group that can lay down the law and save Absalom: the Agents of Edgewatch!
  
  
• 2E Adventure: The Fall of Plaguestone
  
  quote:

  A group of new adventurers traveling through the village of Etran's Folly—also known as Plaguestone—must come together to solve the murder of a friend. What starts as a simple investigation quickly turns sinister with the discovery of forbidden alchemy, mutant animals, and a nearby forest rotting away due to a mysterious blight. It becomes clear that if these heroes don't intervene to stop whatever evil is brewing, the fall of Plaguestone is all but certain!
  
  
• 2E Adventure: The Slithering
  
  quote:

  In the cosmopolitan trading city of Kibwe, at the edge of the Mwangi Expanse, innocent people struck by a terrible curse known as the slithering are melting into malevolent oozes. The heroes are at the epicenter of this slimy curse and might be the only ones capable of recovering the ancient magic required to break it. Tracking the course of the slithering through Kibwe's colorful markets and shrines, the heroes must untangle the curse's origin and discover the role the nefarious Aspis Consortium plays in the unfolding conspiracy. The mysteries the heroes uncover might usher in a new era of plenty and prosperity for Kibwe, if the heroes can survive the slithering to experience it!

So in your PM if possible rank stuff as High, Medium, Low, and No interest. I'll assign simple point values (3/2/1/0) based on that and whichever one wins, wins:

Here is a handy dandy voting chart:

Rise of the Runelords
Skulls & Shackles
Giantslayer
Shattered Star
Mercenary Company
Mystara
Extinction Curse
Agents of Edgewatch
Fall of Plaguestone
Slithering
This message was last edited by the player at 23:53, Fri 02 Oct 2020.

Filing this under the "games I would love to run but probably will never run" category: the all barbarian party!

Everyone starts at level 3 and starts with at least one level in barbarian. After that you can multiclass over into something else but the premise would be a band of elite warriors in the Linnorm King lands basically going through a modified plot of the 13th warrior/Eaters of the Dead: Vikings vs. Werebears!

The players would be the elite fighter from different tribes brought together to penetrate the icy wilderness and end the threat of the werebear raiders once and for all.

I am tempted to homebrew a rule about cascading rage where when someone rages everyone else in the party must make a will save or rage for free and ride the wave.

"Oh crap! Our wizard went into a rage and is ripping that guys arm off!"

So PF 2 doesn't actually have multi-classing, right?  You can take a dedication feat to pick up some of the skills of another class but the class you start with is always the one that you're taking levels in, right?  Or did I miss something.  Certainly, I looked all through the Pathbuilder app to find some way to specify a different class for a level up, and it, at least, doesn't support it.

Assuming my understanding is correct, for your theoretical barbarian game, would they have to start as barbarians and then just dedication feat into other classes, or would it be enough if they started as another class but had take a dedication of barbarian?

I tried putting together a barbarian with a rogue dedication.  There's some cool synergy, there, that might be fun to build a character around.

Edit:  I also made a Ranger with a barbarian dedication and a Cat focus (pet and instinct, plus acrobatics expert with cat fall).  Now I just need a good name.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:23, Fri 23 Oct 2020.

You are correct, in PF2 there is no multiclassing in the traditional sense that we are used to it. You have to take a Dedication Feat to pick up an Archetype now which is how they did multiclassing.

In reply to Kyper (msg # 221):

Could just do gestalt. Or house rule multiclassing is available.

I would say no.  They made the rules the way they are for a reason.  The least we can do is to give their approach a chance.  It's actually a pretty good concept -- you continue progressing in your main class, you just pick up a few attributes and skills from the class you Dedicate your studies to.

Personally, as a GM I try to discourage multi-classing in PF 1 games, other than specializing into prestige classes.  If you're trying to achieve a hybrid, then I'd rather work with you to build a hybrid class.  If it is character development, where they have become disenchanted with their current path, I could support that, but that's not usually what people are doing.  Usually their min-maxing something with no associated personality development.  But maybe that's just my experience.

Actually Pathfinder 2e took into account the idea of Gestalt already in the Gamemastery Guide. In it though they called it Dual Classing.

You can find the rules for it here: https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1328

They actually thought it all out well and good ahead of time because I assume they figured people would look at all of these ideas. So my guess is they wanted to put something together to allow it to happen swiftly and easily.

FYI I am on track for starting up a Pathfinder 2e game in a custom home brew setting probably in January. Right now I am working on an introductary novel as part of NaNoWriMo that I'm using to help flesh out the setting. After that is done (and I've recharged my batteries a bit) I'll produce a page that is a grand overview of the current setting.

I'm trying to fit it as closely to Pathfinder 2e mechanically but I'll be considering some custom rules regarding races as my setting mythology is quite different than Golarion.

For anyone interested in a "sneak peak" so to speak you are welcome to follow along with the novel:

https://www.worldanvil.com/w/e...---chapter-0-article

(Note, this is a 1st draft of a novel I am writing in a single month. It is going to be a rough ride and I've already identified a lot of things I'll be going back. I currently have planned at least 4 more full drafts before I think about really advertising it.)

For those interested in the setting and mythology here is an overview on the origins of gods & races:

https://www.worldanvil.com/w/e...-of-eldath-article-1

And a high level overview of the regions and major factions in play are
https://i.imgur.com/DUQ1CW0.jpg

As for an overall concept of the game it is going to be a sandbox of rails. I have three (working on a 4th) storylines that I can set people on. Right now the three paths are going to be 1) Psychic Pirates  2) Traditional Adventurers 3) Kingdom building & politics. By January #4 is probably going to be a mercenary company style game where the players run a mercenary company or thieves guild or something.

Anyway just putting out a bit of a hype post now.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:14, Wed 02 Dec 2020.

Sounds like a good time and a great way to approach a sandbox via PbP.

I enjoyed the first chapter of your intro! I will keep reading and see what else I learn!

In reply to praguepride (msg # 225):

Super hyped! Read the lore stuff, and reading the story now!

Just a bit of hype as I have another week or so of work to prep to get ready buuuut...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgsurPg9Ckw"

Pirates of the Shackles!


While I enjoyed the theming and characters presented in Skulls & Shackles ultimately I've decided to rewrite the adventure path, ueing elements either I came up with in my tabletop game or pulling from various other pirate adventures to create a new experience.


This will be a 2nd edition game starting at level 1. I will not be allowing the Gunslinger playtest as this is going to be a "low gunpowder" setting (and I don't want to wait 9 months for the full rules to be released). Summoner and magus will be allowed however with the understanding that there might be changes made from playtest to full release.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:50, Sun 17 Jan 2021.

Oh no! I don't have Pathfinder 2!

What do I need to know? I like Pirates! Is it Pirates? Do we get to steal stuff and ride around on a boat with sea combat?

I would love to play this game and also to try 2e.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:14, Sun 17 Jan 2021.

In reply to praguepride (msg # 228):

You can count me in because I been wanting to playtest the Summoner! :)

I haven’t really dipped my toes in the 2e game but I love Pirates! I will start thinking about a fun character now!

I'd love to play in this as well!

Definitely want in on this. I'm thinking Bard o' the seven seas!

...and now I'm listening to sea shanties for the rest of the day. The week is starting out well!

So I am toying with the idea of starting up another, medium (7th-8th level) PF1 game but not committed to it yet.

Mainly, I'm just wondering what kinds of approach/setting/mythology people would be interested in?

That is really vague, but some thoughts would be cool.

Alternate history Wild West?

In reply to Veymundr (msg # 236):

I'm a latecomer to Pathfinder, so I've never had a chance to actually play as a Pathfinder. It'd be cool to tackle Scenarios in a variety of Golarion's locales.

I would love to play the adventure path War for the Crown

Thanks for replies so far.

I don't have anything against Golarion, but there is no shortage of adventure paths or GMs set to run them. Maybe not on here, but if you look at that other site dedicated to PF, there's plenty.

Weird wild west certainly sounds unique; I'm just not a big one for guns.

Not trying to criticize, just trying to get some idea in my head of what I do wanna run.

So any more suggestions, hit me.

Here are a few things to look into.

1. How much does the characters influence the world at low, middle, and high levels?
2. How much does the world influence the characters at low, middle, and high levels?
3. Replace "the world: with governments, religions, economy, criminal element, etc.
4. How does the world run? (Serious, comedic, deadly, etc)
5. How magical? Is it controlled (Arcane, Divine, Natural, Psionic)?
6. How prevalent are magic items?
7. Are they building the area themselves?
8. Are there any races or classes that not there or are different? Why? Any of them have undue influence?
9. Death, is it just an inconvenience or you only get one shot?
10. The level of warfare in the area (Peaceful, brush wars, total war?)

I am sure there are more areas to add to the list but this should help you get you started on making your world.

Thanks, sir.

That's a nice bit to chew on.

All I have so far is replacing arcane classes with the psychic classes.

... or maybe a Norse game. I am vastly indecisive.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:34, Mon 22 Mar 2021.

So just pointing it out but there IS a "weird wild west" setting in Golarion. It's where the gunslingers come from. Basically two big wizard nations are constantly at war with one another and so much battle magic has been thrown around the lands between them are...well...weird. It's heavily inspired by things like Dark Tower or Deadlands.

To my knowledge there aren't any full Adventure paths but I think there are some mini modules that take you through wild-west esque adventures.

It is called the Mana Wastes if you're interested in learning more.

I've looked into Iron Gods recently and it really grabbed my interest. Before I read through the entire path and resolve to start up my own game ... anyone else interested in GMing it so I can play? O:)

Someone was telling me that was inspiration for the Starfinder stuff. Yes? No?

There are links and some carry-overs, but it doesn't seem like the 'inspiration.'
https://youtu.be/ZqAkurqSB0g?t=359
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...amp;ab_channel=Paizo
This message was last edited by the player at 02:17, Mon 26 Apr 2021.

I didn't watch the video but I'm guessing concurrent development. Starfinder is kind of a sequel to a "Distant Worlds" supplement made in 2012 and Starfinder was released in 2017, announced in 2016 and was likely in the works at least by 2015.

Iron Gods started in 2014 so likely they both had their origin from Distant Worlds and were just designed in parallel. Design stuff for Starfinder, go over and pepper it into the Iron Gods stuff and vice versa.

Hey everyone. Two other players and I are looking for someone to GM a 1st edition Pathfinder Gestalt game that takes place in the Planescape setting, but also branches out into numerous other settings via planewalking. I have a lot of ideas I'd love to pitch to any GM willing to run this, which we could discuss privately.

In terms of gameplay, the other two players and I are looking for a great deal of variety over the course of the campaign, ranging from lots of subtle intrigue, mystery/investigation, social maneuvering, clandestine exploits, Mission: Impossible-esque espionage and impromptu shenanigans, to occasional dungeon crawls, wilderness travel, Astral Sea voyages, smaller scale personal dramas, incidental local plots, and episodic detours/side-quests (including adventures in Sigil, the Outlands, gate towns, multiple planes and demiplanes, various prime material worlds, and potentially whole other established settings like Toril, Athas, Ravnica, etc.).

Another thing we're hoping for is the opportunity to intersperse plenty of scenes that focus on character development, bonding between party members, and other sorts of downtime activities that add some colorful interactions to the campaign (tavern gatherings, campfire chats, leisurely stays in cities and towns, bottle episode-style segments that indulge individual characters' personal stories, etc.).

Would this sort of game interest anyone (either to run or play in)?

Definitely interested in playing in a game like that.

Well, that brings us to four interested players. Now if only we could find an interested GM, we'd be all set.

I don't know how much people are interested in this, but I opened up my P1 SWAT team inspired game. I've got 5 people going over their characters and working on what sort of role they want within the squad. By the time things get off the ground, Player Attrition will have taken it's toll. I know this. You know this. It is how RPOL works.

So I will always be looking to boost the ranks.

Here is a link if y'all wanna check it out: link to another game