Y'all talk too much...

@Ventrikel: I would say be careful about a big swerve like "oops they're all dead" because I feel like that would be a huge let down for me unless it in some way tied back  to the main  story.

Like if  the tribe is dead because BBEG and his minions murdered everything that would be a great way to tie it in.

OR maybe the tribe is actually working for BBEG and thus he has to "choose" between his family that he's been hunting for and the morals he's been fighting for.

If it was me, I'd give him what he was looking for. He has a family but one he barely knows. It's like the ending of Castaway where he finally makes it back and sadly finds that he doesn't really fit in. Everyone is just a simple farmer or hunter/gatherer and they are mystified  and amazed by the stories he tells because that kind of thing doesn't happen around these parts.

So you can shower him with warmth and love and siblings and family and feasts and parties...but then hammer into him the mundanity of living in this place.

OR like I said...BBEG murders everyone or they ARE the BBEG (or his minions). Those all work I think.

I think I'd be sad if the GM was like "oops no family". I think that kind of rug pull wasn't very well received for games like Dead Space and rug pulling PC motivation and backstory needs to be done very carefully, imo.

Nevermind.  O.O
This message was last edited by the player at 12:35, Wed 21 Dec 2022.

Thanks, that’s great input. I’m a little bit afraid that things will be flat if I just show him that the place is lovely and welcoming but they’re 0.1% alike him and they have nothing but their race in common. Think it will mostly be received as a “less engaging RP moment”. I might have to be explicit and tell him that he’s probably feeling this distance, so he doesn’t just take it as him the player feeling the distance but also the character doing so. Could probably be a great achievement/crisis moment for the character, if I manage to put a mood on it.

The tribe being under the control of the BBEG is a part of the story through superstition and such. I might try to leave that out of the story though. Maybe that would turn the whole encounter into a mundane “kill the CR15 priest in the woods to save your tribe” which would take 100% of the attention as it gets hard to relate to the moment of disappointment when he finds his tribe but nothing about it really satisfies the character. Hm this is going to be a challenge…

Change of subject.

What formula do other GMs use for determine how much a PC and/or PC party should get paid?

I avoid the question entirely by playing the Storyteller system these days. :)

That said, it's a tough question. Shadowrun (3e, maybe?) used to have a formula in one of the books that served as a decent guide. (It's been too long, alas, and I no longer remember which book it was in.) WEG Star Wars had the guides to bounty hunters and smugglers, both of which gave rough pay scales for their various (mis)deeds. Earthdawn was always a breaker for me... I sorta fudged things by telling my players up front that I was no good with fictional settings' money and that I would back-modify prices to reflect a fair pay.

Pathfinder was always a different way of dealing with things - I only ever ran games that were part of Society, and those had essentially pre-determined paychecks. (That said, were I to run my own, I would go low on the cash and high on the non-cash rewards. Keep 'em poor and hungry shall be the whole of the law and all that.)

@Ventrikel: You can also try and create a more sandbox environment by populating the town and focusing on being reactive to the player. Let the player decide what they want to do and then focus on that. Maybe they want to explore the town so have a couple fun little mini-dungeons or mysteries in your back pocket. The opening for pretty much any Paizo published AP usually has these kinds of "explore the well" or "get the skeletons out of the crypt" light adventures.

Or maybe he wants to deep dive into his family and you can have a big feast for him and really focus on creating interesting family members for him to bond with.

I think if you're really nervous you could also just talk to the player and ask "If you could go back to your village, what would be the FIRST thing you do."

Depending on your group maybe this is even done in game where the players are sitting around the campfire and a handy NPC asks the PCs about what they would do if they could get one wish or something like that.


@Hunter: You can use published material as a guideline. Usually there is a "wealth by level" guide so if you know the PCs should earn 100gp before the next level and you plan for that in 3 sessions then through pay and loot they should get about 30-35gp per "job".

If that's too micromanaging for you then just say 10gp x level or something like that.

When I first started out I used to be very diligent in tracking player finances and their progression, like I had it planned out to the the copper  how much they would get when and where and why.

Then I realized that was a LOOOOT of work for no real benefit and the beautiful thing about being the GM is you have all sorts of ways to  manipulate the economy. If you think they're too rich have them framed for a crime and have to bribe the judge to get out. A thief breaks into their room at the tavern while they are gone or picks their pocket.

OR if they're the kind of group that would go "EFF YOU DON'T TOUCH MY MONEY!" you can give them a money sink. Put a castle or a tavern up for sale and then you can shower them with gold because on the back end you can drain it all away from them again.

Brainstorm with me!
- A magic item is found, for the purposes of this exercise it is hypothetical and you can place it anywhere from lesser magic to greater artifact
- For storytelling purposes, I don’t want it to be “identified” with a spellcraft roll or in a Deckard Cain manner (local friendly mage npc just tells you about the magic). Magic items are very cool and the group I have in mind are brand new to fantasy roleplaying.
- Some sort of adventure, story or event will lead to understanding the magic, or part of the magic


Your ideas for adventures, challenges, methods, components, or otherwise storytelling elements wherein the magic in an item is understood, revealed or identified?
This message was last edited by the player at 07:59, Thu 13 Apr 2023.

My first thought would be to have a glancing mention of the item in a book. The item would have to be something that the player or group wants in order to sink a hook in them. Now seed the path with clues in other books, sages, obscure family members, etc. Toss in someone competing for it for good measure. Stir in red herrings and such.  Sit back and let them blaze their own trail.

You could assign a goal of say 30 points of information. The contacts will generate a number of points necessary to complete the task by finding it. You might add in skills from the other players like diplomacy to help make things easier dealing with the librarians or a rogue having to raid a merchant looking for a scroll that has some information to get it and then having to put it back in the proper place.

In reply to Kegdrainer (msg # 9):

That’s interesting, how would I present it? Do you figure it’s more of a “finding the item” like hearing of a legendary sword, or more of investigating an item already found? Because I had thought of the latter but not realized there’s actually a bit of complexity to that. The One Ring, for example, its every mundane use is well known before Gandalf even starts considering it. But its importance isn’t. And even then, its powers are hinted about but never revealed.

An item my players find would thus be easily understood for the most part, or have more obscure uses.
If it’s easily understood, then investigating it further is complex story-telling-wise, if it’s uses are more obscure then it’s easy as a DM to give interesting information about it in exchange for certain adventuring and investigative work.
If it does have obscure uses, then making sure it’s usable and fun is a challenge.

Selecting the right item is a challenge… but maybe eg a shield with some +x will make for an item they’ll want to use, and mysterious powers allowing such things as casting enlarge person on command…

I like Kegdrainer's points system, but if that's more bookkeeping than you want to bother with, you can always just tie additional abilities to the the character's level.

From a role-playing point of view, you can have all these vague hints and legends about what the item is supposed to do, but that doesn't mean that the players know how to invoke those.

For some of the challenges, don't forget people trying to take the item by stealth or force, once they've made it public that they have it by asking around overmuch.  This could also lead to learning more about how to use the item, since the person whom they've just killed or captured will have his own clues.

Some abilities might arise as needed, the circumstances for which you cleverly set up.  I'm thinking here of light in the darkness, warning of impending doom, etc.  Maybe they heard about the light in the darkness ability, but all their artificial efforts to invoke it did not work.  It wasn't until they drop into a pit with magical darkness (and blind enemies approaching) that it actually matters, and then only once they think to pull it out.

If the item is intelligent, this creates even more opportunities to have the item itself reveal abilities at need.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:37, Thu 13 Apr 2023.

I prefer a bit of a more direct approach simply because every DM knows that players will often miss clues and carefully laid out plans. The more obscure the reference to the item is, or more different ways there are to learn about, the more chances you have of losing them. Prague pointed out up above how to be reactionary in a sandbox and respond to player agency. That works just as well here, too. Let players spew out a few of their own ideas, and when you see them seeing the item do (or has the lore) what they suggested, they get all excited and think they're onto your scheme. The players do all the work, don't realize it, and end up thinking you're a boss for having such a wicked idea. And the whole time you be like, "Yeah... I know. :P"

That said.

I also like the method of forgeries. "This is one of those legendary Skyrazor blades! Look! It even has a stylized I and S etched into hilt just under the hand guard, off to the left and filled with copper! It is radiating very powerful magic. It glows! It is a flaming elven thinblade! It must be Heartburn!"

Then a few levels and adventures later, the party bounces into a tavern (after much success and big loot) and bumps into a puking drunk, elf woman who hasn't bathed in a few days. "That's a nice sword you got there." "Yeah! It is awesome! It's the legendary sword Heartburn." *drunk laugh* "No it isn't." *person holding the sword looks confused* "How the hell would you know?" *more drunk laugh* "Because I know my own work when I see it." *Passes out in the ditch*

Then let them decide what to do. Do they ignore the drunkard? Do they try to id her? Do they try to question her further? Do they do even more research on the weapon? Included in that, do they take it to another master and have it verified and appraised? Well that person values it at like 200k in gold and says it is a priceless artifact. It matches all the information that master can dig up on it. And the players have had more than a couple people try to relieve them of the sword...

So do they have the legendary sword or not? It definitely seems like it.

Fasat forward again. Another encounter with that elf. She's now wearing armor and brandishing a sword of her own. "I'm going to tell you this one more time. One last time. That is NOT Heartburn. I know. I am positive that I know. The next time I hear a rumor of some (insert derogatory barb at whomever is the one holding the sword for effect) like you is carrying around Heartburn, I will hunt you. I will find you. Then I will kill you and take it."

Then what do they do...? The mystery continues.

I apologize for the double post. Entirely different topic though.

Up above, Prague had also mentioned ways of relieving players of gold. I don't really care for the method of charging them higher amounts or having it suddenly get looted or in the case of items, have them fail or get broken or whatever. Two entirely different angles that ultimately have the same conclusion.

First. As a player, I hate that. Part of the fun of the game that is often sorely overlooked and missed is getting enough loot (in any form) to be uber powerful and bad ass. It's really boring when every encounter turns into a life or death situation regardless of how powerful you are. Once you hit that terminal velocity of bigger and better and badder, winning the conflict means you get the spoils, which just continues the cycle. "You're the one who gave it to me, and now you're screwing me out of it, just to screw me out of it. Not cool." Is a very valid response. As a player, you now know you're dealing with a combative DM that is willing to punish you for their mistake. Big red flag. Bounce from that game.

Now. As a DM I hate it too. Chief among my reasons is that I loathe punishing players for my mistake. A knee jerk response is to easily come up with bigger, badder, tougher foes. Well fine. Except when the players win and then loot them too. Now you just made those OP characters even more OP. A less is more approach works best in my experience. Make things so easy it's overkill to "waste" their loot on it. And when the loot they're getting isn't as good as what they already have, players tend to hang onto it for that rainy day they need it.

Thing I do differently than most DMs is that I treat things like an action movie. From John Wick to Jon Snow, with Jack Reacher and Han Solo sprinkled in on the side. Players in my games don't stop dealing with scrubs just because they got more bad ass. The more bad ass the characters get, generally speaking, the easier things get. Sure. Now that the party is level 10, they can deal with Death Knights and Beholders. You can absolutely throw a Great Wyrm Red Dragon or False Hydra at them. However there is only so many times you can use that stuff before it gets old and the neat factor wears off. What do you do once you've saved the universe from doom and destruction? Start all over again? Pffft. It took forever to get there. Let me enjoy having a character that can walk into a room with 5 knights in full plate with their swords drawn and drop them all without a scratch. That stuff is cool. It's fun. And believe it or not, players actually enjoy being the bad ass they're pretending to be in a game.

Yeah I’ve really not picked up on this. I’ve kinda figured that giving the players encounters that are “new and interesting challenges” (challenging encounters every time, scaling up encounters they’ve grown too big for etc) is the best reward I can give them. Letting them explore forward in the story, get a full level, then go back to easier content would be lame. So in all those cases I’d level up entire areas. The players in my campaign are currently in a dungeon where most of them can’t be hurt by the monsters, and I’ve gotta remind myself to not modify those monsters. Gonna let the players steamroll through stuff til they find the occasional super beast. They’ve earned that, and I haven’t given them that for the last 11 levels :)

Thanks for thoughts and input, please keep it coming if there’s more. I’m making mental and actual notes, working this into my plans…

I like the idea of a weapon or artifact that reacts to the wielder as they improve.

"This was your Grandfathers sword. With it he slew a thousand orcs."

For anyone with a +0 BAB it is simply a masterwork sword. But for someone with a +2 BAB it is a +1 sword of smiting. Then for someone with a +4 BAB it is a +2 sword of fiery smiting (+1d6)

and so on.

That way you don't give up your heirloom just because you outgrew it. And it means that other people may want it because it is actually usable by other high powered individuals.

Again, think of it as an action movie.

We remember John Wick vs Francis, because John Wick lets Francis off the hook and Francis unplugs his ear piece and walks away. We remember John Wick vs Common's character because it was -the one- challenge he had at that particular point. The easy needs to be mixed in with the hard. It makes the hard more memorable. Just like too many easy encounters and lack of challenges is boring. It's also boring when you can't get a reprieve from almost having to make a new character every encounter. Granted. Players are different. Some players have entire notebooks full of characters they can whip out. Dying is just a thing because it's just a game. Replace the character and move on. On the other hand, sometimes players get attached to their characters and are not interested in them dying off.

I just wrapped up playing in a Cyberpunk Red game on Foundry. I made it all the way to the second to last session without suffering any damage. It wasn't because I completely avoided conflict. I literally kept putting myself in danger for our other members. It just so happens that I did things like use the map's terrain. I made cover a thing. I played defensively when needed. I used other options available to me. I occasionally suppressed foes so they couldn't get good shots. I used tear gas grenades and flashbangs. After about the 5th or 6th session, I had realized I was on a streak. Then it became a thing! Then it turned into a goal for me as a player. "How do I get out of this situation without getting hurt?" If you've played Cyberpunk, you know things can 1-shot you. Trauma Teams and the like are real because TPK is extremely common. In a lot of games, the GM has to go out of their way to TPK. In Cyberpunk it can happen over a couple of crap rolls. When I finally did take damage (stupid toxic grenade), it was a pretty big deal (at least for me and the GM) IC, and it sparked my character going a bit psycho on the gonk that did it.

Anyway. Thing to remember is, when you look at encounters and what you should be throwing at your players, the assumption is that the party is at full health, has all their resources available, and is under no pressure from outside forces such as weather or time. Things can be challenging without having to assign a crazy high DC or particularly high level. Stick a bunch of archers behind cover, in an elevated position, at night, and make the PCs have to cross a 6" deep puddle of water in order to cross the field to get to them. They know a wizard that can cast, I dunno, Fireball is in the group so they are spaced out far enough so that a single spell can't 1-shot them all. The difficulty of the encounter isn't the combat itself (not especially). It is that they have to not bust their face crossing the field. Then they have to get up to the archers. And there just happens to be a caster on their side with an electrical spell or too prepared specifically for when one or two of the characters remains in the puddle.

You are, as the DM, fully within your rights to assign various penalties to the PCs for attacking. That whole cover thing makes ranged attacks a bit less effective too.
You are, as the DM, fully within your rights to assign the archers advantages to attack because they are in an elevated position.
You are, as the DM, fully within your rights to assign the caster bonuses to damage or even the characters penalties to their saves (and even deny something like Evasion) for being in water when an electrical spell goes off.

Sure. The rules don't explicitly say you can do that. They don't necessarily have rules for these things written down somewhere. On the other hand, the rules kind of do say you can do that. You're the DM. You can do what you want. Naturally, it works best when you apply logic to it and let the players know why you're doing it instead of just springing it on them after the fact. Most of the time, players will be cool with that sort of thing.