That's an interesting interpretation. Balance-wise I would allow it since Chain Shirt + Kilt is slightly worse than a Kikko for slightly less gold. But it would have to only ever be the same kilt that you remove and reattach to maintain that effect ... if you can remove it at all in that situation.

What is your interpretation on the adamantine situation, then?

biased AND lazy, holy shit progue... remove me.



it doesnt do either, you are trying to make up reasons for something that is it's own reason. thats like trying to argue whether it counts as make whole because it's not clear if the base armor is restored when you add the kilt.
Does it say it does? no. It doesnt need to 'add material'. it makes the item heavier and because there are no specific mechanics saying it adds cost... but it can be added AFTER creation, it just happens. How is this still a discussion? right, I already said how.

Jj also hates undead, and the notion of non evil undead. there is a reason they are the less reputable among the devs.

you can deflect by counter insulting in some poor sense of offense but either you are among those doing the thing or not.

no, the dev made it clear that it is not intended to. The mechanics also do not say it does. It can be added to armor at stated cost. period. it does stated affects, period. Dev stated possible implementations of order of affect.... period. counts as means it is so for anything that such becomes relevant. Meaning you calculate dr as one cat heavier... period.

there is no room for bias... period. what you would do or how you would do is irrelevant to what is raw and rai, you can house rule your own games but thats just you house ruling, period. I already proved everything, period... if you dont bother to look, thats on you. period.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:01, Wed 30 June 2021.

Then stop being biased.

RAW doesn't agree with you: Armored Kilt makes a light armor count as medium and a medium armor count as heavy. Mithril Chain Shirt is a light armor.

RAI doesn't agree with you: Mithril costs are balanced for what they provide. Mithril on a light armor is cheap (1k) because it DOES NOT reduce the encumbrance. If you want Mithril that reduces an armor from Medium to Light, you need to apply it to a Medium armor.

Dev quotes do not agree with you: SKR preferred including kilt-adjusted armor size before adding the special material. He NEVER said anything about a kilt added later retroactively changing an armor's special material effects.

Nothing you have presented actually backs your arguments. You've, at best, been throwing around quotes that don't actually support your claims, re-asserting your claims as fact without support, then insulting me because I don't make the same logical leaps as you.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:33, Wed 30 June 2021.

In reply to Vatticone (msg # 937):

holy moly, progue see me out of this game. RAW, RAI, devs, they do, it's literally right there, but if you want to devolve into 'nuh uh, you' then I guess we can official make this game into... well... a game.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:38, Wed 30 June 2021.

In case someone wants some.

In reply to Shinoskay (msg # 938):

There is a HUGE difference, when it comes to debates, between making a claim and demonstrating the claim.

For my claims I have shown the rules, dev opinions, and other considerations and demonstrated how they support those claims.

You have made claims and thrown around dev opinions like spaghetti, but have never adequately demonstrated the reasoning for how they support your claims rather than refute them. You just insult anyone who doesn't agree.

The point of a debate is not to change each other's minds--that is rare. The point is to sway others who view the debate. You do that with good, thorough arguments, not unsupported assertions and attacks.

Okay, I don't even know what Shinoskay is trying to say about Mithral.

As far as DR being increased when adding an armored kilt to an Adamantine armor... I'd say that the rules say yes. Adamantine DR goes up as the weight class of the armor goes up. An armored kilt bumps the weight class. So as written it works that way, unless someone can show errata indicating otherwise.

However, having said that, I am a bit of an ass when I GM and I would not let a player loophole the rule like that, if they pay for both to be made from Adamantine then fine. Otherwise, I'd run it that the DR does not go up but they still get the AC bonus and the ACP and SF failures of the heavier armor. The tweak I'd make would be that I would probably allow an additional enchantment on the kilt while using up the belt slot.

Vatti: I would argue that mithral on light armor costs less because you are using less of the metal to make the armor.

Id also reason that adding the kilt to a suit of armor makes an entirely new armor. Whether it is dr2 or 3 is hardly something to make a fuss about in my book. Put it into context for me if you don't mind. What is the reason it is so important?

WantingToBeRemoved: A. Not O. Prague. Not Progue. Also. He doesn't answer to you.

Now... was there popcorn? I swear I smelled buttery popcorn...

In reply to Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon (msg # 942):

4x less metal? That ratio doesn't follow with Adamantine, Angelskin, or almost any other special material. In fact, the cost of almost all special materials seems to scale much more in line with the benefits than any logical material use.

The context is simply to find more arguments for or against to form a more perfect opinion myself.

...and also to annoy Shinoskay because they previously attacked my character rather than presenting a sound argument on the matter when I questioned their assumption/rules exploitation. I dropped it to keep things civil with someone I was going to be playing a game with(since they weren't going to be,) but since they're being anything but civil with the spamming here...

So you've been trolling. Sweet.

Im not sure what the ratios are to be honest, but I've always assumed that the rarer the material was plus the advantage it gave whatever was being made out of it was relevant to the cost. As I recall it, Dreamstone is stupid expensive, but its mithral qualities and a +2 save bonus vs magic. All magic.

Back at Mithral: Generally the chainshirt is pretty common. It's also the lightest metal armor in most cases. Every class can theoretically make use of a mithral chainshirt. So it seems to me that giving it just an itty bitty break benefits everyone.

Adamantium breastplate, plus an armored kilt however is much more rare and, thematically, exotic. It makes sense the cost is significantly more. Personally, wanting to make as little fuss as possible, Id just let the player have the 3dr and call it a day. 1 point of damage... wooo-eeeey! Big difference maker when as the DM that strike can do as much or as little damage as you want.

But thats just me.

Onward with your trolling!

In reply to Vatticone (msg # 940):

cool, so we are doing this. got it.

nah man, thats just your opinion, I presented more supporting information then you did. getting emotional about it all is a personal problem and not a me problem.

Progue me out please!

Tom, that was a typo, this time i'm just being snarky ;p
This message was last edited by the player at 22:56, Wed 30 June 2021.

Respond to the rMail with BigBadRon, and he will remove you or stop whining about not being removed from this group.

That still leaves one time unaccounted for.

In reply to Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon (msg # 944):

Is it trolling if I am legitimately looking for others' interpretations? Annoying the person set on annoying everyone else rather than fixing their issue, and probably educating them, is just a bonus. :D

And Shinoskay, just so we're crystal clear, you are annoying anyone BUT Prague with this tantrum. He hasn't logged in here since June 16, before you started spamming. You are accomplishing nothing except getting on peoples' 'do not accept into game' list.

Not that I run any games currently, but he's been on mine since before the game where he tried to argue with the guy who wrote the system we were using....

Thats what this is all about? You're butthurt because he fixed a mistake?

And to think...people love arguing with me like I dont know what I am talking about when I comment the "modern" gamer is such a rage infused little hamster.

In my day it was, "Cool. Thanks. But Im DM and this is how we're doing it now. We'll go over it after session. Preferably with a bowl, some beer, or coffee."

Of course, also back in my day, my AC was around -8 and my THAC0 was -2. I had 6 weapon proficiencies in battle axe for Grand Master status, and I wore Great Wyrm Red Dragon full plate bestowed on me by Emporer Vulcan after saving his daughter's life and rode a midnight black mustang. Cuz thats how I rolled.

*Le Sigh*

The good ole days.

I digress.

Vatti: Yes. It is indeed trolling. Your intent is not (or was not) just one thing but two. Two things can be true at the same time; In this case seeking valid responses and amusing at least some of us by annoying "that guy."

Did I do it more than once? I've been looking at the guys name for a rather long time. maybe it was subconcious snark from the start *shrug*

What are you talking about, buck? I've been around a few blocks more than once and argue with a lot of people. that and a lot of people wrote pathfinder.
unless you mean 'THIS' game, the one I want prague to remove me from, pretty sure at least two to three people said hes not even here to argue with... unless hes pretending to be one of you guys because he enjoys watching you get annoyed.

Speaking of long times, blocks, and annoyances. I've been on rpol quite a while, if you dont have me on one of your lists then you probably dont matter. if you arent on one of mine you probably dont matter. And if this is your first time seeing me and it's enough to put me on your negative list then I probably want you on my negative list anyways, I dont need that kind of immaturity.

whatever way you look at it, the world keeps spinning and there is order. yay.

Progue see me out of here.

Oh yes, we have been in the same games together. Suffice it to say that I could recognize your play style with my eyes closed, and have pretty successfully avoided you on that basis. I'm similarly amazed and frightened that you haven't been site-banned for your behavior in public forums.

But, ya know, go ahead and blame it on my audacity for deciding not to game with you based on your behavior in this thread alone. I would actually take it as a kindness if you avoided me in turn, so go ahead and do that.

Hope that clears things up.

@Shin: You're not the only one who has been around this site a while. It is kind of arrogant and making you come off as full of yourself to suggest that anyone who hasn't heard of you probably doesn't matter.

Who are you again and why do you matter? What makes you think you're worthy of being on people's lists, or that they even have them?

Vatti and I have knocked heads in the past. But its also water under the bridge as far as I care. I kind of have a reputation for being too blunt, too aggressive, and an all round ass. Yet I'd wager most people here would rather game with me than you.

That should tell you something.

In reply to Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon (msg # 953):

Giving out stat bonuses based on race is the DEFINITION if racism, calling people unimaginative for using encounter experience tables is rude and betrays a lack of understanding, there are many ways to be a successful DM and you are not the sole arbiter of what works, and granting a player DR 3/- instead of DR 2/- because you plan to fudge all the damage done anyway is disingenuous. :P ;)

Who said I planned to fudge all the damage?

We've already gone over the racism thing. The definition of racism as the belief in the superiority (or inferiority) of one race over another does not apply to D&D outside of ironic phrasing.

It also isn't rude to refer to somebody as unimaginative if they are in fact, unimaginative. Its simply stating a fact.

And of course, understanding that an xp table designed for a table top game in which things progress far faster than they do in a play by post format, so truncating rewards, including xp, in order to advance play and satisfy greedy players, becomes necessary isn't a lack of understanding. Its superior foresight.

:D

/taunt
/re-sticky for Shin.

In reply to Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon (msg # 953):

And why should I care if you feel I am arrogant? who are you to me? see how that works. it is your folly, and not mine, that you take any offense to such a statement. Coincidentally, I have already said twice over that I just dont care... anyways.

just like with buck, buck you probably actually DONT know me. I've probably only been kicked out of one... MAYBE two pathfinder games? and one of them I had left and came back anyways so clearly the gm and I just understood I probably shouldn't have played at that game.
btw, prague, please remove me from this game.

but you go ahead and have fun with your arrogance and audacity...

I give you permission.

I mean, you just advocated for milestone leveling... I despise milestone leveling, it's almost a deal breaker for me. probably another reason weve never played the same games. If we dont play the same games, why should you matter?
Why do you care so much?

though, yet again, I actually agree with Vatticon on an actual matter of opinion.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:25, Thu 01 July 2021.

Who said it was how I feel or that you should care? Stating an observation doesn't mean that it's my perception. It is one of multiple possibilities. Who I am to you is not the same as who you are to me, not necessarily. Case in point, I'm not the one being trolled or redundantly demanding to be removed despite a clear psth set before me on how to achieve that particular result. All you needed to do is wordlessly comply. Yet for some strange reason, that was too difficult and here we sit.

Ego much? Did you get bullied? Did your parents leave you alone one too many times? Lacking friends? Lacking anything better to do? What is it man? Whats your excuse? What makes you feel the need to justify yourself, your position, or your intelligence, despite it mattering to literally nobody but you, instead of simply following directions and doing what you were told?

In reply to Tom_Clancy's_Ghost_Recon (msg # 957):

Just as you didnt say I was arrogant, I never actually said you were, but I gave you permission to be ;p

All, much of all the above. Always bullied, though I ended up becoming the anti bully in the second half of my school time. Being in a special ed class tends to do stuff like that. My parents absolutely left me alone a lot, my dad was military, mom was a struggling single parent mother who had to escape my dad and then battle court manipulation from him, and my uncles had weird ideas of discipline (ever have someone smash a perfectly good tomato in your face... Like really grinding it into your face... I was sneezing tomato for days... because you threw one at some ass of a kid? I have. Most kids who befriended me just wanted to use me for my skills and intellect, the lonely ones seemed to feel they had to have leverage on me to be my friend and so I had to navigate that as well. I actually have a lot to do, recently passed a comptia test, was pretty grueling, now im working in a start up and have already been offered a place at the fore of the marketing campaign, and yet I still find time to come here and play this lovely game... *progue remove me, please... I think im going to stick with saying it like that now, the gag of it is kind of fun.

Excuses? justifications? HA, humorous, though, now you are starting the 'nuh uh, you' game.

If I do have an ego, it's one born of immense validation from official sources and hard statistics.

If you want a good little, compliant, sheep. I'm sure you can find plenty, all around, wearing little blue strips of cloth
This message was last edited by the player at 07:23, Fri 02 July 2021.

Alright sorry about that. I've been slammed at work and I didn't think there would be a dust up like this while I was distracted.

FYI Shinoskay never PMd me about leaving but I removed her anyway from skimming through the comments she made.