OOC Discussion.   Posted by Wanderer.Group: 0
Gegorath
 player, 41 posts
Tue 4 Apr 2017
at 22:24
Re: OOC Discussion
still here
Thrainkell
 GM, 22 posts
Wed 5 Apr 2017
at 11:35
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Gegorath (msg # 140):

I'm around, I could take over but there would have to be some changes, as I'm not sure I could adequately challenge folks with the over optimized builds.
Gegorath
 player, 42 posts
Wed 5 Apr 2017
at 14:34
Re: OOC Discussion
Gegorath:
i think for fairness any and all homebrew should be shelved for now, not banned outright because there is some quality stuff out there.

but limiting builds to WOTC published rules can balance things a whole lot

which i proposed this,

also lvl 50 may be more than a bit ridiculous.
Wanderer
 GM, 148 posts
Wed 5 Apr 2017
at 20:36
Re: OOC Discussion
There were a few main difficulties I experienced in running the game.

1. Getting people to actually finish their character sheets. This was somewhat frustrating, in that I received a fair number of requests to join, and then got a relatively small number of character sheets submitted.

2. Too many requests for 3rd party and homebrew stuff to be permitted.  This is largely my fault for opening that door.  If nothing else, I would recommend that no new 3rd party or homebrew material be allowed.  Or Gegorath's suggestion could be used, though if it were applied retroactively, it might require changes to most of the existing characters.

3. Power levels fluctuating widely from one character to the next.  The problem is that there is a relatively narrow band (at epic levels) where you have a chance against another character.  If you aren't both within that band, one person is much more likely to win, and it doesn't seem as fun.  With varying levels of optimization, it is easy to wind up with characters fighting each other, when the GM knows in advance who is going to win.  This can also lead to frustration for the players, both winners and losers, since they can wind up feeling their effort to put together a 50th level character was a waste of time, leading to more people only playing one or two fights and then disappearing.

I don't know the best way to avoid these problems.  Possibly having a stable of NPCs and monster encounters available for fights, with the monster encounters and NPC character sheets posted publicly, so people have the option to know in advance what they will be facing (possibly with surprises added for each fight, so the PC doesn't entirely have the whole fight figured out in advance).
Thaddeous Bach
 player, 16 posts
 God of: Secrets
 Espionage and Sabotage
Wed 5 Apr 2017
at 21:03
Re: OOC Discussion
I'm still here as well.  I'd love to use this character again.  As one of the first to actually finish the character I put in a lot of work.  Turns out the one person I fought had almost the exact same build.  We ended up just calling it a draw.
Thrainkell
 GM, 23 posts
Thu 6 Apr 2017
at 04:16
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Wanderer (msg # 143):

I would plan to have some NPCs and Monsters as a stable.

I can't guarantee existing characters wouldn't have to change though :(, as if we restrict things which we need to do from several people now that might mean something you have is no longer available.

I'm still willing to try but there would be a set up time for me to make a few NPCs, Monsters and edit rules and such.
Nooyacen
 player, 6 posts
Thu 6 Apr 2017
at 04:35
Re: OOC Discussion
Tho ith it to be, roman candleth at twenty paceth or thomething elth that you had in mind?
Thrainkell
 GM, 24 posts
Thu 6 Apr 2017
at 08:21
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Nooyacen (msg # 146):

I'm not sure and that's a good question. It would be best to have different terrains, perhaps randomly assigned so as not to give to much advantage to one over another. Anyone know a good map program for such?
Thaddeous Bach
 player, 17 posts
 God of: Secrets
 Espionage and Sabotage
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 14:26
Re: OOC Discussion
Since we still have a few people paying attention to this board, and I'm eager to see what this build can do, is anyone interested in a dual?
Thrainkell
 GM, 26 posts
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 14:31
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Thaddeous Bach (msg # 148):

I suppose we could have a duel while we discuss things :), so who wants to take on Thaddeous?

This might give me a bit of time to learn what your current builds can and can't do which might influence my decisions but it's very likely I'd grandfather in any existing character.
Gegorath
 player, 43 posts
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 15:50
Re: OOC Discussion
i am willing to throw down and test my metal.
Thaddeous Bach
 player, 18 posts
 God of: Secrets
 Espionage and Sabotage
Fri 7 Apr 2017
at 15:59
Re: OOC Discussion
Gegorath:
i am willing to throw down and test my metal.


Awesome.  Choose your arena?  3 prep-rounds?
Thrainkell
 GM, 30 posts
Thu 13 Apr 2017
at 16:12
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Thaddeous Bach (msg # 151):

Guys sorry I was busy today, I'll try to sort through your questions tomorrow.
Thrainkell
 GM, 32 posts
Mon 17 Apr 2017
at 03:53
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Thrainkell (msg # 152):

Happy Easter guys, I'm feeling a little better.
Thrainkell
 GM, 36 posts
Sat 22 Apr 2017
at 13:38
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Thrainkell (msg # 153):

Proposed rule changes:

I'll run by you two some of the changes discussed to get feedback:

1. Limit on Number of Classes one can take.
2. Must take a minimum number of levels in any class one takes (instead of number 1), The old DM suggested this instead of 1 in our talks.
3. Alignment is real (note that the old DM does not like this at all). This means you are what alignment you are and all alignment effects work normally. This also means you have to follow alignment restrictions while choosing classes, with no more than say a 1 step alignment change during character creation.
4. Change in Feats, instead of double feats every 3 levels and 4 feats at 1st level, Instead you would get one bonus feat per level, plus the normal bonus feat every 3 levels. (and of course whatever feats your class normally gives). Yes I know this means more feats ultimately not fewer.

Open to your suggestions etc as well
Gegorath
 player, 58 posts
Sat 22 Apr 2017
at 18:37
Re: OOC Discussion
my recommendations

  • SR should be a real defencive ability
  • multiple defeat parameters (allows vow of peace and nonviolence to compete)
    • fail to defend home base flag
    • points gained from holding strong points
    • knockout
    • death
    • surrender
  • paragon OR pseudonatural not both
  • fixed large enemies that can be fought
    • the tarasque
    • multiple devastation vermin
    • abominations ...
  • yes alignments should be a thing
  • losers should be able to "gang up" on someone as long as they have been beat by that person.
  • virtual weight classes
    • those built with only WOTC materiel
    • those built with 3rd party (not homebrew)
    • those built with some home brew (balanced ish)
    • those built without balance in mind
      • (pure ridiculous, "can you knock over my munchkin", non stop king of the mountain)
      • first king of the mountain determined by "free for all" battle
      • in the case of multiple challengers, only one king can hold the mountain (see multiple defeat parameters) to determine winner
    • each player can only have one character in any weight class
    • players must disclose thier weight class

  • LA fills BOTH sides of the gestalt
  • racial HD fills one side of the gestalt
  • no limit on racial HD or LA in 50 level progression

Thrainkell
 GM, 38 posts
Sun 23 Apr 2017
at 12:18
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Gegorath (msg # 155):

I like the splitting of divisions and the monsters to fight, in fact I've been working on Smaug, I'm sure you can guess what he is :), he claims to be the King of the Chromatics :).

He's not ready for fighting yet :(. I'm working on him.

paragon OR pseudonatural not both

I like this suggestion a lot, in fact I want to do away with the having multiple halfs of creatures etc, we need to limit the templates some :).

multiple defeat parameters (allows vow of peace and nonviolence to compete)

    fail to defend home base flag
    points gained from holding strong points
    knockout
    death
    surrender


This sounds like some good ideas.

losers should be able to "gang up" on someone as long as they have been beat by that person.

Interesting idea, maybe like tag team matches?

virtual weight classes

    those built with only WOTC materiel
    those built with 3rd party (not homebrew)
    those built with some home brew (balanced ish)
    those built without balance in mind
        (pure ridiculous, "can you knock over my munchkin", non stop king of the mountain)
        first king of the mountain determined by "free for all" battle
        in the case of multiple challengers, only one king can hold the mountain (see multiple defeat parameters) to determine winner
    each player can only have one character in any weight class
    players must disclose thier weight class


I like these ideas :)

LA fills BOTH sides of the gestalt

Let me make sure I understand this. If say you have a race that's +3 LA, then say Levels 1-3 have Level Adjustment on both sides, meaning you can take no other levels those levels? I think that sounds fair.

racial HD fills one side of the gestalt

Okay unlike LA above on this the racial HD goes on 1 side and then they can pick something on the other side still. This sounds good.

no limit on racial HD or LA in 50 level progression

Hmm I don't know about this one but it might work, I'm more concerned about LA than I am the HD but I'm willing to look more into it. Incidentally Smaug is a CR 50 creature or will be, however I"m not sure that will challenge folks it's an experiment I was already working on.

All find suggestions we can talk about. Thaddeous do you have any ideas on these suggestions?
Thrainkell
 GM, 39 posts
Mon 24 Apr 2017
at 08:54
Re: OOC Discussion
I had another idea, in another game I was in we were limited to so many books we could use to build our characters.

It had a base number of books that everyone had (5 picked by DM one of which was SRD) and then 5 picked by player from approved sources. What would you think about such a limit?

Also what if instead of letting BAB and Saves continue to accumulate at pre Epic level rates we instead used the Epic progression would that help with some issues or create new issues? ...bad idea I think

How do we make SR more relevant?

This message was last edited by the GM at 09:07, Mon 24 Apr 2017.

Gegorath
 player, 59 posts
Mon 24 Apr 2017
at 13:45
Re: OOC Discussion
I am moving so I will be with out regular Internet for a while. Which means I will not be able to check my games and or post as often as I would like.

Concerning the relevancy of SR
It is there for a reason, so let it be the thing it is no modification needed.
While also stacking abilities like (scout + rouge + assasin levels stack to determin sneak attack damage) I don't believe there should be a 50 lvl cap on that.
 But if a player should take say... Ultimate magus and say blood magus at the same level ( on both sides of the gestault.) they only get ...
+1 caster level
+1 level of spells per day as a sorcor
+1 level of (spells per day as a wizard) doubled {not two levels, but the amount they get that level multiplied by 2}

Spell casters at high levels are powerful things so should the defences against them.
SR should be left un modified from the way they are published in the books

This is just my thoughts...
Thrainkell
 GM, 40 posts
Mon 24 Apr 2017
at 14:33
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Gegorath (msg # 158):

Thank you for letting me know, I know others are logging in but not responding I hope they do.

Okay I think I understand what you are trying to get at.

Since all Characters have SR 75 this neuters the spellcasting classes to much if we limit caster level to just 50.

After all with 50 CL, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration and Epic Spell Penetration that's only +56 to their caster level check to overcome SR. Which means they can only succeed on a natural 20 on the die. That is indeed a big problem.

I had noticed this problem while making my character, but forgotten about it. This is indeed a major problem, I'm not sure your solution is the best but at the very least they need a 50/50 chance to overcome SR.

There is the Wizard Spell True Casting that gives +10 to the next check to overcome SR. But that is a bit much to require that spell just to have a 50/50 chance, and the other spellcasters have no similar spell. (It's in Complete Mage if you are unfamiliar with it).

Maybe the solution isn't having CL stack more but instead modifying the SR from the Paragon Template so that it doesn't completely neuter spellcasting. If it only gave CR + 15 instead of CR + 25 SR, that would be a SR of 65. With the above +56 that allows a 9 or higher to overcome the Spell Resistance (I'm assuming any wizard or major spellcaster are taking those three feats being we have such generous feats given). However combined with True Casting this would make it possible for some Wizards/Sorcerers to always overcome SR when using a combination of spells.
Gegorath
 player, 60 posts
Mon 24 Apr 2017
at 16:51
Re: OOC Discussion
For the record Gegorath has a SR of 91

But as a thought experiment I drew out a blue print for a full caster who had a bonus to CL of +192 so breaching the SR is possible

There are a good number of spells that are not subject to SR

also there progressions of a rangers chosen enemy that allows a caster to ignore SR of their chosen enemy.

Also world shaker feat
or
True namer utterances that can strip supernatural, spell like, and extra ordinary abilities like SR and DR.

there are options out there for the full caster, they just have to pull together far flung  source materiel
Thrainkell
 GM, 41 posts
Mon 24 Apr 2017
at 17:11
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Gegorath (msg # 160):

Well yeah SR 75 is the base, if you take epic feats you can improve it and there are probably other ways too.

CL +192.....that sounds a bit hmm outrageous but maybe for our discussed highest tier rung might not be out of the question. My main problem with having CL stack from both sides to above 50 is that if you allow arcane and divine spellcaster to do that others are going to argue that they should have sneak attack stack from both sides at the same time, etc. Thrainkell originally would have had favored enemies on both sides but I think the DM struck it down. (I've noticed some more errors in the current Thrainkell like his weapons right now that I've not fixed yet, however Thrainkell will probably return more to his original form than his current one, I have to have some NPCs to offer bouts, I'm working on some others too but so far I'm keeping my builds simple).

Could you maybe PM me how you get CL +192 so that I can look at it and see if I think it's okay or not :). I'm not sure far flung well known paths to overcoming SR is best though :(. I need to read truenamer stuff
Thrainkell
 GM, 43 posts
Mon 1 May 2017
at 20:25
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Thrainkell (msg # 161):

Another rule change might be to limit how many sources a character can draw upon to build a character.

For instance everyone gets the SRD + 5 Additional Sources.

I'm trying to envision a way to quickly enable others to join in, and not make it so time intensive as the GM for character review as well as adjudication.

I'm open to your suggestions, but wide open as it is now is just not going to work.
Thrainkell
 GM, 44 posts
Tue 2 May 2017
at 08:21
Re: OOC Discussion
In reply to Thrainkell (msg # 162):

Back to the idea of different divisions. I think Players should be able to have one character in each division. Each Division would have some limits.


Copper Division:
    Must Take 5 Levels in any Class Taken (unless it has fewer levels).
    May not take a Prestige Class before 11th Level regardless of any other factors.
    Limited to 1 Prestige Class for first 20 levels, 1 additional prestige class per 10 levels thereafter. (So Since we are 50th you could take 1 from 11 - 20, a new one from 21-30, a new one from 31-40, and a final one from 41-50 meaning you only have 4 Prestige Classes at most).
    Gains 1 bonus feat per character level (rather than double feats at every 3 levels and 4 feats at 1st level). This is in addition to bonus feats from class, race, and normal level feats (1st, 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter).
    Limited to the SRD + 5 other WOTC sourcebooks you choose to build character (Like Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Player's Handbook of Faerun etc).
    If you are a monster race, and your monster race has HD advancement in giant or dragon or whatever, then you can choose to advance that racial class to the limit allowed by the Monster Manual Entry.
    Level Adjustment must be paid on both sides of gestalt. (HD from Humanoid, Giant etc only appear on one side).
    Alignment Restrictions apply. You are what alignment you choose. Your character may have changed alignments no more than once during it's past (Which may remove abilities depending on class choices etc.)
    You must meet the prerequisites of any prestige class taken, you cannot choose Prestige Classes that require you to serve different gods, unless those gods are allied in their respective pantheons.

Bronze Division:
    Must Take 5 Levels in any Class Taken (unless it has fewer levels).
    May not take a Prestige Class before 11th Level regardless of any other factors.
    Limited to 1 Prestige Class for first 20 levels, 1 additional prestige class per 5 levels thereafter. (So Since we are 50th you could take 1 from 11 - 20, a 2nd from 21-25, a 3rd from 26 to 30th, a 4th from 31st to 35th, a 5th from 36th to 40th, a 6th from 41st to 45th, and finally a 7th from 46th to 50th)
    Gains 1 bonus feat per character level (rather than double feats at every 3 levels and 4 feats at 1st level). This is in addition to bonus feats from class, race, and normal level feats (1st, 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter).
    Limited to the SRD + 5 WOTC sourcebooks you choose to build character (Like Complete Arcane, Complete Adventurer, Player's Handbook of Faerun etc).
    If you are a monster race, and your monster race has HD advancement in giant or dragon or whatever, then you can choose to advance that racial class to the limit allowed by the Monster Manual Entry.
    Level Adjustment must be paid on both sides of gestalt. (HD from Humanoid, Giant etc only appear on one side).
    Alignment Restrictions apply. You are what alignment you choose. Your character may have changed alignments no more than twice during it's past (Which may remove abilities depending on class choices etc.)
    You must meet the prerequisites of any prestige class taken, you cannot choose Prestige Classes that require you to serve different gods, unless those gods are allied in their respective pantheons.

Silver Division:

    Must Take 5 Levels in any Class Taken (unless it has fewer levels).
    May not take a Prestige Class before 11th Level regardless of any other factors.
    Limited to 1 Prestige Class for first 20 levels, 1 additional prestige class per 5 levels thereafter. (So Since we are 50th you could take 1 from 11 - 20, a 2nd from 21-25, a 3rd from 26 to 30th, a 4th from 31st to 35th, a 5th from 36th to 40th, a 6th from 41st to 45th, and finally a 7th from 46th to 50th)
    Gains 1 bonus feat per character level (rather than double feats at every 3 levels and 4 feats at 1st level). This is in addition to bonus feats from class, race, and normal level feats (1st, 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter).
    Limited to the WOTC material
    If you are a monster race, and your monster race has HD advancement in giant or dragon or whatever, then you can choose to advance that racial class to the limit allowed by the Monster Manual Entry.
    Level Adjustment must be paid on both sides of gestalt. (HD from Humanoid, Giant etc only appear on one side).
    Alignment Restrictions apply. You are what alignment you choose. Your character may have changed alignments no more than twice during it's past (Which may remove abilities depending on class choices etc.)
    You must meet the prerequisites of any prestige class taken, you cannot choose Prestige Classes that require you to serve different gods, unless those gods are allied in their respective pantheons.

Gold Division:

    Must Take 5 Levels in any Class Taken (unless it has fewer levels).
    May not take a Prestige Class before 11th Level regardless of any other factors.
    Limited to 1 Prestige Class for first 20 levels, 1 additional prestige class per 5 levels thereafter. (So Since we are 50th you could take 1 from 11 - 20, a 2nd from 21-25, a 3rd from 26 to 30th, a 4th from 31st to 35th, a 5th from 36th to 40th, a 6th from 41st to 45th, and finally a 7th from 46th to 50th)
    Gains 1 bonus feat per character level (rather than double feats at every 3 levels and 4 feats at 1st level). This is in addition to bonus feats from class, race, and normal level feats (1st, 3rd and every 3 levels thereafter).
    Limited to the WOTC material
    If you are a monster race, and your monster race has HD advancement in giant or dragon or whatever, then you can choose to advance that racial class to the limit allowed by the Monster Manual Entry.
    Level Adjustment must be paid on both sides of gestalt. (HD from Humanoid, Giant etc only appear on one side).
    Alignment Restrictions apply. You are what alignment you choose. Your character may have changed alignments no more than twice during it's past (Which may remove abilities depending on class choices etc.)
    You must meet the prerequisites of any prestige class taken, you cannot choose Prestige Classes that require you to serve different gods, unless those gods are allied in their respective pantheons.


Platinum Division:
     Kinda like it is now, with maybe a few changes. Kinda the Unlimited Class division.



Can I get some input on this, also how do you feel about epic spellcasting?
Kairos Guardian of Stars
 player, 1 post
Tue 2 May 2017
at 16:45
Re: OOC Discussion
I guess I don't really have an issue with the Divisions.  I like my current build and as long as it qualifies for Platinum Division:

I don't mind fighting with the big boys!


As an aside, I guess I don't hate the idea of a 5 level requirement for a class you take.  I have several with 4.  It would take some re-work but I could make it work.  The problem is, when ever you're making a 3.5 character it's ALL about balancing the build.  If I take this, I sacrifice that.  There are reasons I didn't take those 5th levels and sacrifices made.

As for Epic Spells:

If your goal is to make things less complex and easier for you to approve characters, I'd stay AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE from Epic Spells and Custom Items.

There's plenty of power in Spells 1-9 as is.  The ability to stack/unslot current existing items is powerful enough.  You don't need a munchkin (said lovingly) coming up with his belt of...  "The item was approved by the DM and allows me to turn myself into an eldergod and you into a grub no save."

This message was last edited by the player at 17:03, Tue 02 May 2017.