I imagine that Celes would have kept Nate in the dark about the safe-world for a while, but over the course of their teamwork, she'd have come to trust him, and know him enough to let him in on the secret. At that point, she'd know that it would only raise his opinion of her as a professional, and as a person. Nate doesn't keep many secrets from those he trusts, but he also doesn't speak much, so although he'd be much more free with his tongue around her, he wouldn't be opening up much around others.
With this scenario, I don't think that he and Grev would have had many conversations, and would only know each-other primarily by rep, and through Celes.
Given the circumstances of Shira's rescue/escape, Nate would have opened up to her more than most, but probably not as much as Celes, because of their partnership.

PS, I like the Baba Yaga refference.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:27, Tue 12 Jan 2016.

I could join in too. I think I would fit in well as a giant cat alien.

My character is a togorian ex-mercenary. His mercenary group betrayed him and his Jedi friend and pretty much sold her to the Empire. Now he is looking to get revenge and also rescue his Jedi friend.

That's the short version. I have a much longer version too if you are interested.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:47, Tue 12 Jan 2016.

thanks.  Seemed like it would add something interesting.  Waiting for Celes and Shira to respond.

Could well be that Nate and Grev only know each other by reputation.  Given that they both tend towards less public-eye pursuits, that's not much to go on.  *L*  I'm thinking Grev might be "new" to the crew, perhaps having come on after meeting Celes again at some place or other, and seeing an opportunity to pay-off his Debt by profits gained in opportunities generated.

In reply to Nate Stryker (msg # 39):

Sounds good! Shira can be a chatterbox sometimes, so she would be an interesting friend for the more taciturn Nate.

In reply to Grev Longtooth (msg # 41):

Sorry, I missed what I was supposed to respond to. What was it?

The Rebellion does have safe worlds, possibly one that has young Force-sensitive children if it helps.  Feel free develop any ideas if you wish. :-)

Heh. Another Jedi. They seem more common after the Purge than before. XD Other than that, it seems like a story we could definitely use.



Ooo. I was just thinking of having a way to cash in on innocent bounties by "killing" them and taking them someplace safe where they can live out their days in peace. Including that, or a place like it, as a potential Rebel base for training new Force-sensitive kids sounds like a really good idea.

If none of you are watching Star Wars: Rebels, let me heartily recommend it now.  It is written like the best of Disney (and maybe Pixar), something children can enjoy and adults can appreciate.

Very Minor Spoiler:  At one point in the second season, it turns out the Sith Inquisitors are looking for promising Force-sensitive children (in the show, the two prospects are toddlers for their species).  The Sith want to corrupt them and the Rebels want to take them to a safe world.

The very logical idea of Force-sensitive children being the most powerful weapons (true enough) and constantly fought over appeals to me.  It certainly raises some interesting questions:

1.  Are most Sith really just former abducted and brainwashed children.  Are they victims?  Can they ever be redeemed.

2.  Can a Force-sensitive child be allowed not to be a Jedi?  Or are they something like your average X-Men or Elsa from Frozen, absolutely dangerous without training?

In reply to That Old Fossil (msg # 46):

Well, the expanded universe had answers to those, but since the replaced it with some garbage new continuity, I can't say.

*Pouts Childishly*
This message was last edited by the player at 06:12, Sun 24 Jan 2016.

*poke pokes Shira* You are a silly bean child. :P

The expanded universe answers to those are still just as valid as they ever were, assuming we're using the expanded universe concepts for this game. I'm assuming we are, since that's literally everything we have to work with. Personally, I'm still astounded we have so many Force users in one place (the crew), plus we've found three more Force users elsewhere (the girl and the people on the herdship). For a time when they're supposed to be super rare, there's a higher concentration of them here than anywhere during the height of the Order. XD Must be the Force at work.

1) Most Jedi are abducted and brainwashed children. Most Sith appear to be disenfranchised youth or disillusioned Jedi, slowly turned to the Dark Side by promises of power or realizations of instant gratification. I think the Sith getting to train them from childhood is exceedingly rare overall (like the Sith themselves, I mean they're only allowed to have two at once). During the Empire era, there aren't supposed to be a /lot/ of Force users in the Empire. Most are either so weak they're worthless and killed, or they're defiant and arrogant and killed, or they're turned from teenage or mid-20sish, or they were turned directly from the Jedi Order. I can only think of one full on abducted child, and that's Galen Marek from the Force Unleashed.

2) Force-sensitive children, far as I was aware, are either in one of the Force-using traditions (if not the Jedi, than one of the culture-specific ones), or the Jedi sever their connection to the Force to keep them from accidentally killing everyone. Whether by losing control of their powers or gaining control of them, children strong in the Force are potentially incredibly dangerous without the teachings of the Jedi.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that until Star Wars 2nd Edition came out and codified the idea of being "Force Sensitive", literally anyone could become a Jedi through training and dedication. Han could've joined Luke in his training with Old Ben, but chose not to. It wasn't until the RPG decided you had to be special that the rest of the continuity followed suit. ... And then the prequels said a bad word we don't repeat here because of the children.

The point is that Luke is supposed to be stupidly strong in the Force, but there was never even any indication of that until Old Ben decided to train him. He was 18 and nothing weird ever happened to him, and he's supposed to have the most Force potential in the Galaxy by that time. It is perfectly reasonable to just say that Force-sensitive kids pose absolutely no danger, and may never even realize how strong they are with the Force unless someone who can sense it tells them. That idea would fit right along with the films, while the concept that they could accidentally ruin everything would go along with the EU. It all depends on what you need.

Or in the case of the empire. Sith Inquisitors were to either turn a child that had any force aptitude or to eliminate them so they could never grow into a threat to Palpatine or the Empire.

Regarding the EU, I am not against it per se.  But the problems are the EU is too vast for a newcomer (such as myself), would sometimes contradict itself (why was a particular galaxy-shattering element only in one novel) and sometimes frankly terrible (The Sun Crusher, a starfighter that can destroy a sun and can't be stopped, makes a Death Star seem silly).

Yet, as mentioned, the EU is really all we have to use as mortar for the few solid bricks of the Star Wars movies.   But at the same time, I am somewhat disappointed in the revelations of the The Force Awakens.  It seems nothing has really changed, the new heavies are basically the Empire with another name and there is even a goofy new Death Star.  So we will have to pick and choose what works for us from the EU and discard (or just plain ignore) what doesn't.

As far as just how many Jedi are on your boat; early in the planning stages of the game, the players decided on a rouge Jedi concept.  So there had to be lots of Jedi.  And I didn't want to tell any player they couldn't be a Jedi.

Besides, the term Jedi is really a misnomer (I just hate both the length and imprecision of the 'official' WEG term 'Force-sensitive').  I have always thought a Jedi was that actual title given to someone with a true mastery of the Force, somewhere around 7D to start with.  Your characters might make 3D with a careful build, you are effectively aging padawans without a master.  This is not a criticism by any means, you are as cool as a starting character can be.

But from the Empire's POV, you all are not quite at the level of Jedi--Kill It! yet.  Instead, you are at the level of wildflowers, a free-range resource that can be harvested with just a little effort.  Think of Luke in Empire, Palpatine and Vader were not trying to kill him but turn him.  And that persisted until ROTJ, until Luke finally and undeniably resisted the call of the Dark Side.  And then the plan became 'cook Blondie with lightning (and why is my servant hanging back?)'.

In any case, your characters are quite rare.  The Galaxy has trillions, if not quadrillions of sentients.  Even if you guys are literally 'one in a trillion', there can still be a relatively high number of you.  And your small number is the best result of decades of searching by both y'all and the Rebellion.

As far as Jedi moppets go, I don't know what happens if they aren't trained, do they gain in power but not control, or does the 'call' to the Force just die?  It does seem that Jedi training is quite drastic, you basically leave your family for good.  It is not merely school but a kind of priesthood.  That is gonna cause resentment and other Dark Side fodder.

This raises a question to my mind, are the Jedi, as an order, flawed?  Was their downfall solely due to the sheer brilliance of the Sith.  Or did their tendency towards denial doom them?  That is to say, would the Jedi do better dealing with passions rather than suppressing them?

Basically, as I see it, Jedi were flawed.  They surpressed their emotions, and thus could not control them when they became too strongly emotional.  But more importantly, the Jedi were special forces, meant to maintain the Republic at nearly any cost.  Their only restriction was that they weren't supposed to kill.  Altering minds, remmoving limbs, intimidation, these were all used in the movies with no moral poblem from the Jedi.  They were in essence, the Power behind the Republic as much as the means of maintaining that power.  Palpatine simply out maneuverd them, exsposed their weakness, then capitolized on it.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:42, Mon 25 Jan 2016.

Far as I can tell, the D6 RPG assumes that you're at Knight level if you have 3D in the three basic Force skills. Every book alluded to the idea that there were more Force skills, but I never saw any in the sourcebooks. In the Tales of the Jedi sourcebook, there are some rules on making and playing full Jedi or Sith lords, and those templates start with 1D in Force skills that you can bump up to 3D. It seems weird to me.



I can dig that. Just seemed odd we'd gather so many in one place deliberately, and then still come across more accidentally. But in Ben's experience there's no such thing as luck.



Again, look at Luke. He kept his potential, but didn't go all Harry Potter and make stuff happen accidentally. And look at Anakin, the single most powerful Force user in history. He was almost a teenager and hadn't done anything more than learn how to chariot race at 700 kph without dying.





Grev's got some good points in there. My own thoughts are similar. Even just watching the films, it /felt/ clear to me (even though Lucas said I was way off base) that the Jedi were straight up wrong all the time. Everything they did seemed to be based on fear and a desire to maintain control and power. Windu kept talking about "the Code" like there was some established Jedi Code that we were expected to know, even though Lucas made it clear that no EU stuff was official unless it was directly referred to. So I'd like to read the official Jedi Code, but can't because there isn't one. Sounds like the Jedi were just reaching for something to justify bad decisions.

The things Grev is talking about are, for the most part, done by a guy everyone says the Council doesn't like because he breaks rules all the time. Sadly, we never once got to see a well-behaved Jedi actually doing anything. Everyone the shows follow are rebels. Qui-Gon was an example of a rule-breaker. Casual abuse of the Force was considered not okay, but he did it left and right. Removing limbs was actual Jedi philosophy, in that if someone could be kept alive at the loss of a limb, it was better than just murdering them. And only Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon did any intimidation, but again, troublemakers.

My line of thinking is that all their decisions we got to see in the films were just horrible: no, you can't train the single most powerful Force user in existence to use his power responsibly, send him back. No, you can't have a girlfriend and be happy, you need to feel pressured to either suppress your feelings (have you met teenagers?) or be secretive and untrusting. No, you must spy on this really shady guy in a high position of power for us, and no, we won't be giving you any recognition for being capable of handling the task. No, we won't be open to listening to your concerns about anything ever.

In Expanded Universe stuff that I've read, the Jedi were way more open in the days of the Old Republic than they were during the Rise of the Empire era. Marriage was allowed, you were expected to talk to people and could express your emotions, so long as you didn't let them rule you.

Ever read up on Vulcan philosophy in Star Trek? Same deal: by the time of the Star Trek shows, Vulcans have decided to just repress emotion entirely and claim not to feel it, but the original teachings were to /control/ emotions, feeling them and letting them be as much a guide as logic, while not letting either one take over completely. Use all available input, rather than shutting out half of it. The Jedi evidently took the same track, allowing emotion but eventually demonizing it and everything else as a "path to the Dark Side".

So yeah. They went stupid and paid the price.

I would argue that sending a Jedi to "negotiate" or on a "diplmatic" mission was much lik sending a mobster.  Yes, they were being "diplomatic", but the threat oftheir presence and powers was ever-present.  I would also argue that Neither Obi-wan, not Quigon were as disliked as appearances might have been.  They were specifically chosen for very important missions, with the knowledge of what they were capable of.  I believe their training was morre about loyalty and control (both of their powers, and of the Jedi Council controlling the individual Jedi), than about a specific quasi-religious doctrine.  Even slavery was tolerated, so long as the order of the Republic, with its condescention to the appearance of free will was maintained.  Anakins' mother could have been purchased by the Jedi and kept safe.  But they id not care what happened to her, only about aquiring another force-user to increase their ranks.

In reply to Grev Longtooth (msg # 53):

Or, y'know, like sending a cop. Which is what Jedi are, basically; supercops. It's also why slavery on Tattoine is not their problem; they are outside their jurisdiction.
Qui-gon and obi wan are selected by the Supreme chancellor, not by the Jedi council. And Qui-gon's maverick reputation is well earned. Just in Episode 1, we see him specifically tell the council that he's training Anakin, regardless of what they want.

I don't quite think that's comparable. Jedi are scholars and diplomats as well as warriors and superheroes. When you really really want to sent a skilled negotiator, you send a Jedi. They're... well.



That. :P

The Jedi /couldn't/ buy Shmi. That was the thing. They had no money that was good outside the Republic. Also slavery was a cultural norm on Tatooine, though illegal in Republic space, and the Jedi weren't there to instill the Republic's views on unaffiliated cultures. They can't just go and dictate their culture onto other people, since that would be wrong even if they felt it was the right thing to do. There are some analogies to real world politics and diplomacy, and how diplomats behave in other countries.

Thankfully by the time EU rolled around in a timeline, separate or not, the "code" is dead.  Extinct and 100% forgotten by all.  Allowing Luke Skywalker to do the only manly thing he ever did in his life. Which was get married to Mara Jade, the Emperor's super assassin, that was tasked with killing him.

Don't mind the jab at Skywalker, through out the movies and all of the books I've just found him to be insufferable.  Having spent literally all of his time in the novels (and one and a half movies) proving that he's got less soul and emotional range than a droid that's fresh off a memory wipe.

Now, now, don't be coy.  Let us know how you really feel about Luke. :-)

I will agree that Mara Jade was one of the best things to crawl from the EU.

Thank you all for your thoughts on the Jedi, all varied and valid perspectives.  I would say this for now (as I am a little rushed tonight); heroism is overcoming temptation, not simply not being tempted.  Luke had to risk being tempted by the Dark Side before he could be victorious.  So it looks like the Jedi are just nervous nannies. :-)

Indeed. Jedi don't want heroes, as Yoda made a point of during Empire. The Jedi want people to do their damn job. That job just happens to be mediating peace between people, and ending conflict quickly when it arises. They're police monks. That job just happens to spread stories of superhero ninja samurai monk knights.

What do you wanna bet the younglings in the temple sometimes read comics about Jedi? :P

Any suggestions about Sniv? Nate could accept the surrender, and put him in binders, for us to deal with later, or just ko/kill him and take off? From Nate's perspective, I'm torn, since the guy seems to be a decent (if cowardly guy - not alliance material), but he's also an imperial officer, and who knows how many atrocities have been committed because of his orders (again, may have been because he's too cowardly to refuse to give them).

Personally I think we should let him live (no surprise I'm sure) we are supposed to be the good guys after all.  I'd accept his surrender, it could be he wants out just like some of us once did.  Tie him up and if need be maroon him somewhere later.  He might be useful to get us out of here.  I don't think him promising no pursuit will help much.  Imperial types aren't known for keeping their word.  Most importantly, if he does escape well he's not that competent an officer honestly and he'd be more helpful to us if he lived to lead the Imperial forces lol.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:18, Thu 28 Jan 2016.

Well, no matter what we do, we'll be marked as will our ship by the empire.  Either for kidnapping, or for like 9 cases of murder instead of 8 (or however many Stormies we've taken out already).

Good thoughts on what to do with prisoners (and how it defines your party) in both this and the Cantina OOC thread.  To help mesh our thoughts, I have put a reply to both threads in that thread.