If she's got a dozen people offering up donations, is she really taking on a dozen new Aspects and a dozen times a mana-pool?

In theory?  Yes.  In practice?  Getting to that point is virtually impossible.  Let's say that through a complicated scene, she gains Blackmail material on the Countess of Viruallane (made up Countess).  That would be what...

Indebted [X] [_] [_] [_] [_]

Another scene happens, and she does a substantial favor for the Countess, racking up...

Indebted [X] [X] [_] [_] [_]

Okay.  So two scenes later, Cara wants to cash in on that Stress Track.  She casually lets slip that if the Countess lets her drain her blood in a profane ritual, she can pay down some of that debt.  She rolls well enough on her Provoke attempt, or maybe spends a Fate Point, and the Countess agrees.  Cara performs the Lesser Boon, and clears the stress track.  I roll for it randomly, and let's say Cara gets access to the Fire Discipline, the Aspect Child of Fire with a free Invoke, and a Mana Stress Track equal to her Lore (+4).

So now our debt looks like.

Indebted [_] [_] [_] [_] [_]

Countess of Viruallane isn't a Dependent, her magic is not a renewable resource to Cara.  Once that debt is cleared, it's cleared, and I can't imagine the good Countess will be keen on letting an Oathsworn suck her dry anytime in the near future.  Maybe if she's desperate enough she'll take on more Debt, and Cara will be able to tap her again, but that's a pretty narrative heavy resource right there.

Greater Boon next, but what are your thoughts?

I'm  real sorry, but I'm gonna put this mantle through the wringer now.  I've got a lot of questions, because I need to be sure I understand it.  I think I do, but I need your confirmation on a lot of things.

I'm sorry this is so long...

I'm still not clear on whether this instead of or in addition to the base mana-pool.  I think it's instead of the default mana-pool of the Evoker.



Disfavored (sticky): [ ]
Violating the House's trust marks this condition. While Disfavored the Oathsworn may no longer use any of the abilities associated with their Mantle. 
How does this work?  I can see her losing the dependents, but she can still feed, can't she?  Or is that also a gift granted by the house?


The First Boon:
An Evoker other than the Oathsworn makes a donation of blood, gaining the Exhausted Aspect. 
Okay.  So, only Evokers can donate.


The Oathsworn marks down an Aspect that includes a Mantle Stress track, one of the donator's Disciplines, and a free Invoke. 

1. The Oathsworn takes on a new Aspect with a free invoke.
   Okay.
   
   
2. "...that includes a mantle stress track"
   What is a Mantle stress track?    I understand what a Physical Stress Track is and a Mental Stress Track.  Different Mantles will carry different Unique Conditions...  But if she can only get donated to by an Evoker, then what additional stress track is she taking on?  Is this a Unique Condition that the benefactor possesses?  Is this a reference to the Mana-Pool?
   
   
3. ...[that includes] one of the donator's Disciplines
   I like the use of disciplines in The Dresden Files game, but I don't like it here.   All the elemental forces are open to evokers.  If one wants to specialize, it can be done with a stunt.

Their actions may have scale at the GM’s discretion. 
Let's remove rrferences to Scale as well.   We might reintroduce it later, but not now, please.

When the Stress Track is exhausted the Aspect and its associated Discipline is lost, as is the free Invoke if it hasn't already been spent.
When the Stress Track is depleted the Aspect is lost.   Okay.


This stunt may be used repeatedly, gaining a new Aspect, Stress Track, Discipline, and free Invoke each time.
You say that it is possible in practice to bulk up on donations, but that it is virtually impossible to get very far with it...  Why is this so?  What is the limiting factor?  'Cause I'm not seeing it.   That Cara and House Yisil chooses to do this via donations rather than force is interesting, but I still don't understand why.  There must be a reason they've evolved this practice.  What prevents them from bulking up on donations?  I think the limitation should be built into the mantle.


However, it cannot be used on the same donator unless they have recovered from the Exhausted aspect.
Why not?  Would it kill the benefactor?  That sounds like a definite risk, but not a hard limit that makes it impossible.   Or is there some other reason why they absolutely cannot. even if they wanted to?


If used on the same donator, then the Oathsworn may either refresh the Stress Track on an existing Aspect and Discipline while gaining another free Invoke (even if the previous Invoke was unspent)or gain a new Aspect tied to a different Discipline of the donator with its own Stress Track and free Invoke. 
Does this mean that the Oathsworn can double-up from the same benefactor?


The Final Boon:
The Oathsworn of House Yasil commits a point of Refresh, absorbing one of the Mantles of their victim into their own.
Is this strictly narrative or mechanical?

I suspect it's narrative only. If Cara absorbs an Evoker's mantle, does that not now make her an Evoker??  Taking on the mantle gets the unique conditions and core stunts of that mantle... If she's only absorbing a portion of the mantle, then calling it "absorbing a mantle" is a misnomer...  Let's find another term for it.

What happens if she absorbs the mantle of a city guard?  One who's got legal power to investigate and perform legal search and seizures?  I dont' see cara absorbing that core stunt.   I suspect her absorption relates specifically to magical powers.   And, apparently, some portion of their identity/memory.



The Refresh does not return until the Mantle is released, and if it is said Mantle is gone forever. 
And the mantle is released when the Stress Track is exhausted, correct?



Additionally, the Oathsworn can assume the previous holder's physical form (+2 to Deceive attempts to impersonate them), and has access to some of their surface memories (can spend Fate points to know key information that only the victim would have known).

I feel that this is unnecessary.  It's kind of padding the mantle and it's something that's inherent possible by the blood running through her veins being that of her benefactor.   She has a key sympathetic element within her (her benefactor's blood) which would facilitate both the appearance (shape-shifting) and memories (divination) via magic.    I don't think a whole new mechanics is necessary.
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:14, Thu 23 Apr 2020.

So, let's go back to your example...

Countess of Viruallane has offered up her blood.  Cara has fed.  She now, apparently, takes on a Child of Fire with a free Invoke, and a Mana Stress Track equal to her Lore (+4).

Who's Lore?  Cara's or the Countess of Viruallane?

What determines the length of the mana/mantle-pool?  Your example seems to suggest that it would be the Oathsworn's Lore, rather than, say, the benefactor's mana-pool.   Does this mean that Cara could feed from someone with a two-shift mana-pool and gain more proficiency and power than the Benefactor had to offer?  Where would that extra power come from?

I think it should be limited to the lower of the Oathsworn's (Lore + 2) or the benefactor's mana-pool.  Since Cara has a maxed out Lore, it'll mean limiting it to the benefactor's mana-pool, in play.

If the countess had a Mana-pool (2 + Lore(+1) = Mana-Pool(+3)), I would prefer to see that Cara had a mana-pool of +3, not +6 (2 + Cara's Lore(+4)).

Is the Mana Stress Track mentioned in this example the same as the Mantle Stress Track referenced in the Oathsworn Mantle description?  Then we need to fix on a specific, consistent name for it...  This is a big part of my confusion.

Now, fine, she's got her five Aspects and Child of Fire, which gives her (for sake of our discussion) a 3-shift mana-pool.

Child of Fire (1 free invoke)

Mana (Countess) [1][2][3]

Then she decides to go feed on Nathan...

I don't really see her taking on any other Aspect but the magical gateway Aspects.  Do you?   So, it'd have to be Grandfather's Blue Cloak Mother's Sigiled Fist. Even then... it's not going to confer on her the obligations of the City Guard.   It will, however, give her a free invoke and a Borrowed mana/mantle-pool of 4-shifts.

There's another question... who decides which Aspect she's going to get?  There will be NPCs in play that you don't know the Aspects for.  We may have to go with "fuzzy Aspects"... soemthing in the ballpark if you don't happen to know.

So, she absorb's nathan's power...  Is this another mana-pool?  So, she now has two Mana-pools? The Countess at +3 and Nathans at +4.  Is that correct?

Child of Fire (1 free invoke)
Grandfather's Blue Cloak Mother's Sigiled Fist (1 free invoke)

Mana (Countess) [1][2][3]
Mana (Nathan)   [1][2][3][4]

And these mana/mantle-pools do not recover short of physically feeding again.  is that right?

If Cara does not use this borrowed power, how long does it stay with her?  If she's physically taking blood to represent the transferance of power, and the power disappears once the borrowed mana/mantle-pool is depleted...   Will the power wane on it's own if not refreshed/replaced?  I'm not really talking about hours or days here...  More like weeks/months without being called upon...  Maybe session/scenario length.  I feel that it should wane slowly, as the foreign blood gets absorbed into her system....
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:15, Thu 23 Apr 2020.

Again, sorry it's so long.

Man, I joined this game because I love creating magic systems.  I've butted into most other people's Mantle threads, because I LOVE creating magic systems.  I made the most convoluted Mantle I could think of, because I LOVE building magic system.

No apologies necessary, ever, for wanting to discuss and develop the magic system.

I think it should be limited to the lower of the Oathsworn's (Lore + 2) or the benefactor's mana-pool. 

That makes so much sense I'm mad I didn't think of it first.

Is the Mana Stress Track mentioned in this example the same as the Mantle Stress Track referenced in the Oathsworn Mantle description?

The only Mana Stress track Cara gets are ones that she takes from the Lesser Boon.  She isn't a font of magic, she has to take it from others, and it doesn't renew itself like other people's do.  Maybe we should call it Boon Mana?

---

who decides which Aspect she's going to get?

You are totally welcome to if you want.  I'd be more than happy to have to adapt to unplanned Aspects, that kind of goes with her theme of being filled with foreign magic.

If you don't want to have to be making up new Aspects on the regular, I'm happy to do them.  In my head, the Lesser Boon only works on Evokers, and the Aspect isn't stealing one of their Aspects.  It's based on whatever Discipline she steals from them.  This was more when I thought that each Evoker would be limited to one or two Disciplines like the RaW for Fate Fantasy High Magic.  With each Evoker have access to all Disciplines, it makes less sense.

I wanted Cara to have some pretty severe limits in place due to her ability to absorb multiple Boon Mana Stress Tracks at once.

---

To that point, when she hit up Arcanist Ellis Yassur in the IC thread, I should have.

• Marked a dot of Dependent.
• Asked you what his Lore is.
• Added a corresponding Boon Mana Stress Track linked to the Sight Discipline
• Given myself (or asked you to give me) an Aspect related to scrying magic, like Blazing Third Eye or Touched by Unwanted Visions

---

So, she absorb's nathan's power...  Is this another mana-pool?  So, she now has two Mana-pools? The Countess at +3 and Nathans at +4.  Is that correct?

Correct, that was my hope.

And these mana/mantle-pools do not recover short of physically feeding again.  is that right?

Exactly.

If Cara does not use this borrowed power, how long does it stay with her?

Tough question, as in theory if you never spent it, you could build up obscene reserves of power.

Maybe one Boon Mana Stress is inflicted a a session?

No apologies necessary, ever, for wanting to discuss and develop the magic system.
That is a huge relief, because I so value the enthusiasm you bring to the table.  I like what you've been doing.   When considering developing settings to be published in some form or another (well, it's in the back of my head... I might open that discussion with you guys down the road), the mechanics are always the part I feel less confident about... so having someone who grooves on that side?  Fuck yeah!

You've answered a lot of my questions, and I am lot more comfortable so far.  We're getting there.

The only Mana Stress track Cara gets are ones that she takes from the Lesser Boon.  She isn't a font of magic, she has to take it from others, and it doesn't renew itself like other people's do.  Maybe we should call it Boon Mana?
That is huge!  Okay then.



You are totally welcome to if you want.  I'd be more than happy to have to adapt to unplanned Aspects, that kind of goes with her theme of being filled with foreign magic.
That sounds like a discussion for each specific time.


In my head, the Lesser Boon only works on Evokers, and the Aspect isn't stealing one of their Aspects.
Ah, so it's not theft... it's... a mimicing?  Cara taking on an Aspect representing the "borrowed" magic doesn't prevent the benefactor from using their powers. It's impact on the benefactor is the exhausted condition.


In theory if you never spent [the borrowed mana/power], you could build up obscene reserves of power. 
This is the seed of my issue.  Not that she can amass an obscene amount of power--because that's her fundamental concept. Rather, it's that she can amass an obscene amount of power too quickly.   I feel the need to push back on a character who can go out one night and feed on every evoker in the city and become a godlike paragon overflowing with mana in one night<I>.  I don't see what prevent that here.

I expect all of our characters go through Significant and Major Milestones to up their skills and refresh (although, we're probably going to be a lot more fluid on Aspects than in a tabletop game).  But the key is that you <i>do get more refresh down the road.  And that's got to be the key to Cara's potential to become a frightening Goddess of mana-consumption...

I'm just not sure how to get there from here, yet.

Hm.  We did discuss the Refresh element, earlier...  Hold on, let me go look.  No, that was regarding the Final Boon, which may be a discussion for a later time   I haven't nitpicked through that yet.   I'm still focused on the Lesser Boon.



Correct, that was my hope.
Ah, So,with the removal of "disciplines" we need to find some way to differentiate the types of magic ties to each borrowed aspect.    Okay, I see...

I've a few suggestions.

Let's stop calling them "borrowed aspects" and call them conditions instead.    Invoking an Aspect costs a fate point, and evokers don't typically pay that to cast magic, unless they want to enhance the effect.  These magical conditions are the gateways to her manifested power.

For a regular evoker, mana is an optional element to increase the power of a magical effect.  How would you feel if the Oathsworn needed to peg off a shift of mana to use the power at all not just to add a boost to the power?

It would mean that if she has "Mike's Power" at +2, she's got two uses on that condition, before she loses it.  So, she can do three normal spells, or one normal spell with one-shift spent to boost it, but it burns out if she spends both shifts...

I'm not married to the idea, mind you.  But if this was in place, I think that would be an immense cost and we could drop the idea of the long-term depletion entirely.  It would also mean that she probably needs to feed more often than I was initially expecting.


Maybe one Boon Mana Stress is inflicted a a session?
I think that's fair, however this would be utterly voided if you buy into the suggestion above.  I don't want to over-penalize her.

I had also forgotten that Burned Out burns out one of the borrowed aspects.  I'm still good with that.  Technically, if you buy into the one-mana-slot per magical-effect suggestion, it would mean you can apply Burned Out, then use one shift of Mike's Power to make a magical effect, and the other shift of Mike's power to enhance the effect, effectively giving you a +4 to that one effect...  so you would get to double-up on the bonus for losing that Condition...  That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  'Cause, really, how often are you going to do that?


Of course, this is Aroen, and Cara does not lose the power to do rituals...  We are just talking evocation here.

You are totally welcome to if you want.  I'd be more than happy to have to adapt to unplanned Aspects, that kind of goes with her theme of being filled with foreign magic.

That sounds like a discussion for each specific time.

Awesome.

• What is Arcanist Ellis Yassur's Lore rating?
• Do you want to pick the Boon Condition (figure let's keep it simple with the naming conventions) or shall I?

For a regular evoker, mana is an optional element to increase the power of a magical effect.  How would you feel if the Oathsworn needed to peg off a shift of mana to use the power at all not just to add a boost to the power?

That's actually super on theme for what I had envisioned for the character, and I really like it.

As is, she could cast and cast without losing it as long as she never pushed the power level by spending Mana.  This though?  It creates a really clear limitation.  Using the magic at all drains her battery.

Ah, So,with the removal of "disciplines" we need to find some way to differentiate the types of magic ties to each borrowed aspect.

If we've already established narratively that an NPC favors a certain type of Evocation, we can use that.  Otherwise, I can just roll 1d13 like I did for my Dependents and let the dice decide.

Also gives you the ability to introduce really alien magics, like bone weaving Osteomancy, Entropomancers wielding chaos and curse magic, Spirit Mages from Aren, etc, etc.

But if this was in place, I think that would be an immense cost and we could drop the idea of the long-term depletion entirely.

Appreciated, let's drop this.

"Boon Condition"  That sounds good.  It should help me from getting confused!

• What is Arcanist Ellis Yassur's Lore rating?
• Do you want to pick the Boon Condition (figure let's keep it simple with the naming conventions) or shall I?

I went to the dice-roller:
Control rolled 2 using 1d4.  Arcanist Ellis Yassur's Lore Rating.   
So, he's got a mana-pool of 2 + Lore(+2).
Therefore it's a 4-shift mana-pool for Cara.

And yeah, I figure everybody's going to have their favorite specializations...  If you'd care to make one up for Yassur, feel free.

When putting it on the tracking sheet, please also reference the benefactor's name so it's easier for me to keep track.  I mean, if I haven't already done it and you remember.

So, if an Oathsworn feeds twice (after exhausted is recovered from but she hasn't depleted the boon condition, I'm kind of assuming it just refreshes the mana-pool.   Thoughts on the whole "taking another boon condition"?  it was part of the conversation earlier.  Just want to see how you think ti fits now.

If we've already established narratively that an NPC favors a certain type of Evocation, we can use that.  Otherwise, I can just roll 1d13 like I did for my Dependents and let the dice decide.

I'm easy either way.  If  we're dealing with a character I have plans for, I may opt in.  But, otherwise... I'm quite happy to let you have narrative freedom.

Okay, over all, I think we've nerfed this enough to still allow her the potential to go on a short-term power-kick, but at the same time, limit it enough that doing so could have some potentially dramatic narrative repercussions.

As a side note, because we're starting the story with Cara having been in Druvir for some time, you're welcome to make up another boon condition that's in existence right now...

When putting it on the tracking sheet, please also reference the benefactor's name so it's easier for me to keep track.  I mean, if I haven't already done it and you remember.

Done

So, if an Oathsworn feeds twice (after exhausted is recovered from but she hasn't depleted the boon condition, I'm kind of assuming it just refreshes the mana-pool.   Thoughts on the whole "taking another boon condition"?  it was part of the conversation earlier.  Just want to see how you think ti fits now.

This is a tough one for me.  When I thought each Envoker would just have 1-3 Disciplines, it was easy to say "they have as many potential Boon Conditions as they have Disciplines, one linked to each."  That isn't the case anymore.  So, I think the Boon Aspect wouldn't change.  She'd just get another free Invoke, and refresh the Boon Mana and the ability to hoard them if she hadn't spent the last one.

Let's try it out that way and see ow it goes.

So, here's my issues with this list.

Evocation is, in this setting, narrowly defined as "manipulation of elemental forces with an instantaneous effect limited by line-of-sight."

I suspect that I didn't comment on it before because there was so much other stuff to comment on.  the mantle, the character.  This wasn't a high priority.

So, to my mind:
Elemental Forces:
Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Gravity, Lightning, Magnetism

Note that I'm not including Dresden Files "Spirit" in there.

But the following...  they don't fit for raw force manipulation with a line-of-sight instantaneous effect, for me:  Death, Illusion, Life, Mind, Nature, Sight, Teleport, Transform

I'm also really not enthused by the concept of "Death Energy" (Especially if "Energy" is part of the list of acceptable forms.  Isn't "Death Energy" part of that?

There is still nothing to prevent Cara from casting ritual magics.  But I really don't want rituals at evocation speeds here.

Awww, that makes me sad.

But I totally understand, and I'm having more than enough fun with this character, the world we've built, and you as a DM to not be too choked up over it.  Seriously, this has been so much fun.

I'll need you to retroactively pick what sort of magic Arcanist Yassur gave me, I've already spent his free invoke, so we don't need to worry about that.

Thank-you for your understanding.  I know it's a disappointment.


I still don't see a problem with divination being a specialty focus of Yassur.  Narratively, it can still boost rituals.  An the divination as a create-an-advantage action is still super cool and valuable...


Thank-you for the compliment.  I love your writing style too...
This message was last edited by the GM at 05:33, Fri 10 July 2020.

Works for me!  I'll have an IC post tomorrow morning.

Placeholder until I get an actual bio for each of them.

Arcanist Ellis Yassur
College Trained Oracle
Lore 2 - Boon Mana Pool 4
Description:  Dark skinned for a native of Druvir, Arcanist Ellis Yassur is a thin man in his early 40s.  He has a sharp widow's peak of black hair, narrow spectacles, and favors an ornate wooden cane because he thinks it makes him look important.
Bio: A 1st Degree Clerk, Arcanist Yassur is a College Trained Oracle who uses his talents to engage in prospecting endeavors for the Royal Bank of Druvish and Harrell.
Aspects:
An arcane eye for the right price.
College trained.
Thinks inside the box.

Grain Mother Huarta Patil
Khandari Merchant
Lore 3 - Boon Mana Pool 5
Description: Short but broad, Huarta has the dark skin and golden eyes of most of the Khundari.  Easily in her late 40s, she wears her just graying hair in long braids that go well past her waist, and is rarely seen without the scythe that is her Clan's calling.
Bio: One of the Lesser Matriarchs of the Clan of Patil, Huarta is a minor talent in the Evocation of Water Magic.  She is a shrewd merchant, and takes advantage of the Khundari's fearsome reputation to extract better prices from the foolish Softlanders.
Aspects:
Storm Caller
A stern gaze speaks volumes
Well travel and well spoken

Tril "Trilee" Patters
Urchin Wild Talent Sorceress
Lore 0 - Boon Mana Pool 2
Description: Small and scrawny, Trill looks like a strong breeze might blow her away.  She says she's 17, and the wear and tear of the streets certainly makes her look like it, but she's only 15.
Bio: Tril lost her parents young to a plague, so young she doesn't remember them.  She also doesn't remember a time when she couldn't summon the wind. Her natural talents allowed her to avoid the worst of the streets, but she's still seen more than her fair share.  She is the only Kumlaran to seek Cara out, offering blood in exchange for reputation and protection.
Aspects:
Sharp eyes, sharp ears, quick fingers.
The wind is my friend.
Smart cookie.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:39, Wed 14 Oct 2020.

Don't need a huge bio... just a couple of broad-strokes and maybe an Aspect or two.

Bam.

So Grain Mother Huarta Patil having led multiple trade caravans to the Pennryn lands would make sense.

Works for me.

I'll create her as a shared NPC.  Meaning, you'll own her.  That still allows me to use her as I see fit, too.

So while we are waiting for our two new players, I'd like to do some enchanting within the Aboard the Hundari Kornmara thread, as Cara absolutely would have done the prep work.

Which leads to the question, we should set limits on how many items Cara can enchant at once.

Maybe no more than her Lore score?

Okay, I've gone and done my exercise for today, so I'm settling and getting cozy with rpol now.

I'm okay with a fuzzy limit of the number of enchanted items that can be carried.  But I think the number of actual activations of said enchanted items should be limited to the Loer rating.

If you do a ritual to enchant a new item, it doesn't impact anything....  only the triggering.

As a rough rule of thumb, I'll also say that the Lore rating applies for each "chapter".  To my mind, this really means "until you've had a narrative justification to reset it."   Hm.   So, maybe that should simply be a enchantment stress-track, to better keep track.

If you wanted to push beyond the limit, you can trade off physical/mental consequences to do so... (not stress, because that gets wiped at the end of the scene anyway)...

Or is that getting too complicated?

So this is me trying to address an issue I have with Fate and Fate+ in general, and maybe there is already an answer I just don't know about.

In our first scene, we had some moments alone, and Cara used that time to Create and Advantage on her bracers and knives.

What's to stop her from just spending a few days creating an advantage on every single piece of clothing she wears, and going into the fight with 50+ advantages and invokes to draw on?

Mechanically?  nothing.

Narratively, my patience.

It's a world where magic is bloody everywhere.  It follows that people do this all over the place all the time ad nauseum.

With the lore-limit as I'm proposing it here, she may have 50+ enchantments on all her stuff.  But I'm still only allowing the character to trigger up to four enchantments in a chapter (or sleep, as appropriate).

Really, I'd prefer not to define more than five to eight such enchantments, max.  Even that just feels like ta lot of preparation to slog through.  Particularly because the narrative preparation or mechanical preparation when listed out on RPO)L puts me in a positino where I feel I should find a way to make use of it.

Cara created the Mindfire poison on her blades.  She had an opportunity to use it, and she did.   But if you're setting up a half dozen other enchantments, you'll need to accept that many of them may simply not come into play.  Because the mroe enchantments you prepare, the less I feel obligated to create a narrative situation for them.

Another possible way to approach it is to allow everyone an enchantment stress-track and just let folks narrate why they have such an applicable enchantment available to them via a flashback wherein they prepared for just such an eventuality.  Mind you, it has to be credible... you couldn't possibly have known that a acid-trip-inducing snail was going to be in that stew that Rickard just made...    I mean, he didn't even know...

Perfect.

Thank you!

This message was deleted by the player at 08:30, Tue 19 Jan 2021.