Knell
 member, 69 posts
Mon 18 May 2015
at 05:37
D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
My wizard chose the Minor Conjuration school, andstarting at 2nd level when you select this school, you can use your action to conjure an inanimate object

This object is
no larger than 3 feet on a side and weigh no more than
10 pounds, and its form must be that of a nonmagical
object.

What are the possible objects that I can conjure? Anything nonmagical? If I conjure a glass of water and drink, will it slake my thirst? Can I conjure a box of nails and spread them around the floor for pursuers to hurt their feet on? Or must I confine myself to rocks and blocks of wood and such? I'm having a debate with my DM on this, about what kind of usage may make me overpowerful, and which may render the ability next to useless.
Kevlyn
 member, 247 posts
Mon 18 May 2015
at 13:05
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
It's the DMs call, it is their game.  I would probably define inanimate as something that doesn't move on its own.  And since a liquid moves to fill its container, I'd exclude those.  Additionally, since it's a single object, I'd probably not allow multiple copies of an object, so no box of caltrops either.   I'd say that other than those two things, you'd likely be good to go with anything that fits those parameters.
Heath
 member, 2870 posts
 If my opinion changes,
 The answer is still 42.
Mon 18 May 2015
at 16:30
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
I'd say it must be one general, non-specific "object."

Therefore, an "object" can only be one thing (not a thing and its container, or a thing containing multiple things put together).

One object also means that it is something that can be counted.  You can't "count" water, and "food" is too general.  So I would exclude "mass nouns" like water, gold, silver, etc.  If you have to say the word "of," it's probably not okay -- a "hunk of gold," a "gallon of water," etc. Whereas, 1 chair would be okay because it is not a mass noun.

I would also exclude "specific" items.  It must be a general use item--not a specific crown, dagger, or whatever.

As far as "inanimate," I would also exclude anything that ever was animate, which pretty much excludes all food, but that's a DM call.

(Imagine, for example, conjuring a pile of bones that used to be your old Halfling companion, and then having your cleric cast resurrection on the bones. I think these kind of thoughts go outside the vision of what this spell's all about, as it would make other, much more difficult spells, superseded by the imagination of the caster.)
swordchucks
 member, 903 posts
Mon 18 May 2015
at 17:04
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
By RAW, it's a fairly worthless ability.  You summon a single, obviously magical object that lasts a short time.  It's barley more useful than the Transmutation ability and well below all of the other school powers in terms of usefulness.  There are a few specific uses, like making a duplicate of a key you can see (or for a lock you have picked, maybe) or a disposable poking stick, but not much else.

Personally, as the DM, I'd be more liberal with it.  A quiver of arrows is an item.  A glass of water (or a flask of lamp oil) is an item.  Just remember that it all vanishes in an hour (making conjured food and drink useless at best and potentially deadly at worst).
Heath
 member, 2871 posts
 If my opinion changes,
 The answer is still 42.
Mon 18 May 2015
at 17:35
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
I didn't know it only lasted an hour...

That would certainly make it interesting to conjure the bones of a dead comrade, have the cleric cast resurrection, and then have him disappear in an hour. :)
C-h Freese
 member, 185 posts
 Survive - Love - Live
Mon 18 May 2015
at 17:40
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
I have a similar problem with minor illusion, can I only create an overlay in the box, or can my image displace the view of a thing with empty air.

While it is easy to say Oh.. do what the DM wants and is perfectly valid, the idea of a community of play, to be able to make a character and go anywhere and play them seems of little importance to the current system designers.


      I do have some thoughts on Minor conjuration, can you conjure a ten pound golden coronet. Why not, or a gem worth 200gp, why not?  We both know why not it throws the system balance out of wack.

 But it doesn't have to be all or nothing, in some mythological and folk traditions, that golden conjured crown could be hacked apart sold in pieces.. until someone tapped it with cold forged iron and it dissolves into leaves.  Not an illusion per say but not real enough to face cold iron.
 What about the gem, do you plan on selling it? same issue.  But what if you only want to use it as a spell component no cold Iron, [or your friends bones] but what if such items also fail when under the direct influence of magic.  The gem dissolves as you attempt to cast the spell spoiling it.

  Another fun thing picture giving a beautiful silk gown to the mayors daughter.. it snags on a nail.  Cold iron. the Mayor decides he wants to speak with you about why his daughter was at a dance in only her chemise!!  Your Fighters silver headed mace turns into mud when hit by faerie fire, or fire bolt.

If you want to conjure a leaf, rope, pouch, loaf of bread, no biggy.  but the bigger thing may not be real enough to face magic and cold iron.  one could simply say naugh.. you can't do that but in some ways it takes the color and fun of roleplay away.

This message was last edited by the user at 17:49, Mon 18 May 2015.

Tyr Hawk
 member, 50 posts
 You know that one guy?
 Yeah, that's me.
Mon 18 May 2015
at 17:55
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
C-h Freese:
While it is easy to say Oh.. do what the DM wants and is perfectly valid, the idea of a community of play, to be able to make a character and go anywhere and play them seems of little importance.

It's really not that it's not important, Freese, it's that there's a problem. The problem is that most of any TTRPG is interpretation, and different people will have different interpretations, just as we've seen in this thread. I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you; I completely agree with your assessment that that's what we all want on some level. But there is a problem to it, and the problem with it being a problem is that the problem is sometimes what makes it more fun (that's a mouthful).

Take Heath's comment
Heath:
That would certainly make it interesting to conjure the bones of a dead comrade, have the cleric cast resurrection, and then have him disappear in an hour. :)

That is a beautiful example of how one person's interpretation might be different from someone else's an allow for a wonderfully different experience in a different game. Maybe Heath would've played forever in groups with the same ideas as they posted earlier, and maybe they still will, but the idea is now there in the back of their mind as a new possibility, and that is... just amazing.

It's frustrating at times, yes, to learn and relearn which houserules apply, what's a houserule and what's official RAW, or even to find out your character idea is rendered completely moot by interpretation, but that's the roll of the dice, and those are the dangers we live with and often accept as a trade for creativity.

Personally, as far as minor conjuration/illusion goes I'd have to take a long look at it before making an official ruling. Heath's version seems the most fair to me, but I'm also no expert in DnD 5e. The long and short of it is: so long as we're not in an official competition of some sort, rulebending, rulebreaking, and rulewhatevering are going to be the norm, so GM's word kind of has to be law. And I'm okay with that. ;)
swordchucks
 member, 906 posts
Mon 18 May 2015
at 19:18
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
Heath:
That would certainly make it interesting to conjure the bones of a dead comrade, have the cleric cast resurrection, and then have him disappear in an hour. :)

Since the thing you conjure is obviously not real, I'd love for one of my players to try this one.  Oh, they think he comes back from the dead.  Yep, that's definitely him.  He doesn't vanish in an hour... nope, and it's totally not Something from Beyond locked in a mortal shell.  Not at all.

C-h Freese:
Why not, or a gem worth 200gp, why not?

Well, for one thing, it's obviously magical and glows.  Merchants in a fantasy world have likely learned the tell-tale signs of a conjured gem by this point.
Heath
 member, 2872 posts
 If my opinion changes,
 The answer is still 42.
Mon 18 May 2015
at 22:15
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
C-h Freese:
I  Another fun thing picture giving a beautiful silk gown to the mayors daughter.. it snags on a nail.  Cold iron. the Mayor decides he wants to speak with you about why his daughter was at a dance in only her chemise!!  Your Fighters silver headed mace turns into mud when hit by faerie fire, or fire bolt.

This spell could be an excellent source for an adventure hook.  The party must sneak in and replace the princess' wedding gown with one they conjure on the spot with the spell.  Their "employer" believes the wedding is cursed, and this will get everyone on their side.  The princess, in the middle of the ceremony, finds herself suddenly not wearing a wedding dress...and the kingdom revolts, believing the wedding was a cursed affair (pardon the pun) and that this is a sign from the gods.

Brings a whole new meaning to the Emperor's New Clothes.

You could do similar bait and switch with gems or valuable (at least, appearing valuable) items.
bigbadron
 moderator, 14847 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Tue 19 May 2015
at 02:23
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
Please remember that this forum is intended for answering questions about how specific rules within a published system function.  Discussion of house rules, adventure hooks, etc... belong in Community Chat.

Thank you.
Knell
 member, 70 posts
Tue 19 May 2015
at 04:38
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
I thank you all sincerely for all the help. My wizard will,henceforth, swindle people with gemstones.
Knell
 member, 71 posts
Tue 19 May 2015
at 04:43
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
But I assume spell ingredients will be no difficulty? I can conjure most of them up at will!
gmpax
 member, 1138 posts
 {insert witty quote here}
Wed 20 May 2015
at 07:54
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
Kevlyn:
I would probably define inanimate as something that doesn't move on its own.

Small quibble here: D&D alrady defines "inanimate".  It means, simply: "not a creature" - not alive, not undead, not a construct, not an elemental, etc.

Also: water doesn't move on it's own.  It reacts to physics.  But if you put water in a bowl ... it's not going to get out of the bowl on it's own.  (If it does, then it wasn't just water, it was really a water elemental - whole different ballgame.)

Personally, as a GM, I would have zero compunction about someone conjuring a glass of water.  Yes, it would (briefly) quench your thirst - but it wouldn't count towards long-term survival needs, e.g. if you're in a desert.  If that conjured water is your ONLY drink, you're going to dehydrate and die.

But if you're drinking enough water to survive, and conjure a glass of COLD water for the sensation of refreshment?  Bully.  :)

As for how useful it is or isn't ...?  Here's a few basic ideas for useful things:

A pot or pan - to cook when camped.  No need to carry it around, and bonus: no need to CLEAN it after eating.

A coil of rope (you can get a godawful LOT of rope in a 3x3x3 cube of volume ...!)

A block of ice (chill EVERYONE'S drinks!!).

A shovel, pick, saw, or other rarely-needed but still useful hand tool.

A handful of sweets, with which to bribe/befriend village children.  Won't ruin their dinner, 'cause it'll disappear in an hour!

A single coin, with which to bribe that vagrant/beggar/innboy/whoever (hey, if the money system hasn't changed since 3E: 1pp is a LOT of money to a lot of people).

A tinderbox.

A candle (hey, it's light for an hour ...)

And so on.
swordchucks
 member, 908 posts
Wed 20 May 2015
at 13:48
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
With the coin, I again point out that the ability is very clear that what it creates is clearly magical and glows.  You can pull off most of those examples, but the glowing coin isn't going to fool anyone.  Sure, you can use a social skill to fool them with it, but you could probably pull that off with a shiny button, too.
gmpax
 member, 1139 posts
 {insert witty quote here}
Sun 24 May 2015
at 05:15
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
swordchucks:
With the coin, I again point out that the ability is very clear that what it creates is clearly magical and glows.  You can pull off most of those examples, but the glowing coin isn't going to fool anyone.

Ah.  I stopped buying new D&D books with 3.5E, so I don't know how the ability works exactly.  That would indeed scupper the coin-or-other-valuable-as-bribe thing, in all but the most unusual circumstances.

It would work to bribe someone who's blind, though ... :)
Jarilye
 member, 906 posts
Mon 25 May 2015
at 17:56
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
  Or if you were bribing someone with uranium...  :D
gmpax
 member, 1140 posts
 {insert witty quote here}
Tue 26 May 2015
at 20:36
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
Eeeh.  Radium, maybe.  Uranium doesn't actually glow.  :D
LoreGuard
 member, 604 posts
Tue 26 May 2015
at 22:44
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
It glows providing light to 5', showing it is magical in origin.  It also vanishes either in an hour, or it takes any damage.

The object has to be something you have seen before.  I think by its description, it is relatively easy to ascertain you are not actually getting the genuine article... so you can conjure a feather, or a ruby, but it won't have the necessary properties to function as your material component for a spell.

It might be able to conjure a duplicate of a vorpal shortsword, if they had seen it before it was magical, but it won't have magical properties, and wouldn't fool anyone with any skill in a variety of disciplines.

However, if a witness saw an odd dagger which was used as a murder weapon, it might prove useful to recreate what he saw for the investigators to determine if its design reveals anything about the murderer. [if the investigators believe the witness]

If someone said they had a magic gold coin, and should be worth more than a gold coin, they may find that after taking the bite test... the coin may be gone.  [coin taking damage]

I would say it can create basic mundane tools, and the like that can be used for normal usage.  I don't thing that even if a masterwork tool were created, I don't think that it its 'clone' would get it.  Conjured objects can't have magical properties according the the rule... and I would have to say that probably included alchemical aspects as well.  It seems inappropriate for it to recreate rare alchemical one-shot items to use them without paying for them.
Justisaur
 member, 29 posts
 Dungeon Master since 1979
Fri 2 Oct 2015
at 23:43
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
In reply to LoreGuard (msg # 18):

Also possibly useful to arm one-self or one's friends if disarmed.  Conjure a short sword, dagger, or a crossbow.  It can be done as your action... there's no limit, so in a period of a minute even with a single item you can have conjured 10 bolts for that crossbow.

It allows you to not carry a whole ton of mundane items that would otherwise be encumbering you.  Crowbar, a backpack, a torch, even a magnifying glass or spyglass, which would otherwise cost you 100, and 1000 gp each (although softly glowing might make them difficult to use).  Need a lot of light, start conjuring and leaving candles everywhere.  Also leave hunting (bear) traps everywhere.  Your stuff got wet?  Conjure a dry tinderbox.  A few small barrels and paddles might be enough to get you across a body of water where no way was available before.  Conjure some wooden storage boxes and build a stair out of them stacking them up, or build a barricade from them.  Conjure one and use it as cover.

You can also go on the flamboyant side, conjure up a new fancy hat every few minutes (obviously you need to visit a haberdasher to have seen some before hand)

Even food that doesn't actually give you any nutrition could be useful. Conjure up cakes and pies, everyone enjoys and they aren't stuffed or overweight later.  Conjure candy to give out to kids or goblins. Conjure up a large steak to distract carnivores.


On the more iffy side from a DM:

Got captured and everything taken away?  Conjure up an arcane focus.  How about material components for find familiar (10gp each time)

Going on the 'show people' side - conjure a painting of whatever monster you want to show people.

The alchemical & otherwise expendable items: poison, acid, oil, and healers kits (man that would really help our party out currently!).  Alcohol that leaves you sober after an hour.  Wolvesbane & Belladona (though not in the PHB) could be useful too.

A whole library at your fingertips - you must have seen the object, so after visiting a library, you can conjure ever book that's there.

-

As for Minor Illusion, I've had a hard time coming up with anything useful to do with it.  Based on it's wording is seems like it's a single immobile thing.  I made an illusion of a snake once when fighting rats, but as it's got no smell, doesn't make noise and doesn't move it didn't really do anything.
Studynot
 member, 79 posts
Fri 27 Nov 2015
at 20:09
Re: D&d 5th ed Conjuration problem
In reply to Justisaur (msg # 19):

You could arguably summon a spyglass too