For your enjoyment.

Hold up - my initiative was a 19. I mentioned I forgot to add half my level to the dice roller because I am rusty at the 4E system. Unfortunately, I am the only one that outpaced the enemy.

Its fine. I took regard of it, and went with your post as the truth for what I was to do. No effect on combat thankfully.

Since it wasn't included in the GM update: the Ripper is at 24/68 due to FoR's damage.

Does that berserker have reach? Because if he missed his first attack on Nezumi, he's getting the freak away from me.

EDIT: I have a Reaction that might change the math on their ability to hit me.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:34, Mon 17 Oct 2022.

He does not.

Then I am having Nezumi dance away from me, and drag her new partner with her for an interesting tango.

Her: K9 to J9
Berserker: L8 to K9

For abilities usable once per round does that start at the beginning of your turn or the end? Depending on the answer I may be able to move again.

You'd be able to use it on your next turn.


I don't *think* anyone applied a defense penalty to the berserker that round. If someone did and I missed it then I'll need to do a bit of a rewrite.

In reply to Rynoth (msg # 9):

So using Warding Chaos during my turn means I can't use it now? Alrighty.

What's Rynoth's Pact Boon? I referenced the fact that it was triggered but you never mentioned anything about it.

Why is that guy still in my face? I thought I forced him to move away when I had Nezumi move.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 12):

Actions posted here don't count and you could've moved it yourself too.

Right. I'll stamp a reaction into the main thread next time. Until then, sure - let's stay wrong for now. Simpler.

It varies with active vestige, but the usual one (when a daily isn't active) is that his Prime Shot bonus increases to +3 until EONT.

He can *also* claim the benefit when something cursed first becomes Bloodied, although this removes the Curse until he reapplies it.

Okay, so, our enemy Bronzie - did that thing fire two ranged attacks, or did it walk up and swing twice? If the latter, I have a reaction in mind. If the former, no.

It swung twice, with massive reach but still...melee attacks, range 2.

Excellent. My side job as Controller leaves me with little room for error, although the Leader primary job does give me some wiggle room to make mistakes. I've noted one thing about Controllers - if they do their job badly, they are worse then having no one in their role on the team. They can easily hinder the party's ability to fight or misjudge with AoEs and destroy their own team, and separating deliberate trolling from ineptitude can be nearly impossible, as they both often do the same things.

Hilariously, the only role our Arcane heavy team is missing is an actual Wizard. Or a Psion, to give Grock some company.

It would appear that once more Jhaartael forgot to actually move the characters affected by his forced movement abilities and the Berserker was actually in melee with me. Did he provoke an AoO to charge at them or something?

The large Warder? No, due to reach it does not engage into your provoking squares if you would due to reach advantage? Unless you meant Jhaar?

If it is wrong, keep it wrong. This is how I learn. I missed a detail, and I simply need to post this stuff in the right place.

My last post was in regards to the Bronze Warden beating Rynoth's face in. Since the first attack missed, I scooted them away - this I did NOT forget. I wanted to move the Berserker to you and away from me, but I posted that in the wrong place.

Learning.

Edit: I edited the graph, but not the map. Berserker is at I11.
This message was last edited by the player at 13:35, Mon 24 Oct 2022.

I'm referring to the Berserker that was moved to I11 while granting me a free MBA against it in post number 520 of the combat thread (my MBA was in 521 and your last post was 522). I don't think it would have been able to attack Jhaartael without moving and provoking another hit from me...

This time you posted the right place and updated the graph properly, you just forgot the map and other actions had been taken in accordance with the changes made which would be more difficult to modify than the one post which is based on inaccurate information.

TL;DR; Do better but you're good.

(PS: I need to fix my own location on the graph.)

The map being askew is what happens when I mess with a map on my cell phone. Learning - that will not happen again.

I accidentally deleted that poor berserker, for one. That is known as a mistake, not jumping the gun, although I'm fairly sure if they stay next to Nezumi, they will be deleted for their effort.

9 Psychic damage and grant CA (Encounter Reaction because it's better than the daily's secondary at-will without the vuln boost) for trying to hit me and then planning on using one of my 2 uses of my Encounter Attack power to deal 4d4+12+2+3 Cold damage on my turn (assuming it hits) so yeah, probably gonna be dead on my turn if things go according to plan.

AFAIK the warder only has reach 2, so being moved west would put Rynoth out of range of the second swing; I'll add back the 14 on my turn if it isn't done before then.

What was the individual amounts and type of damage done to Grock from the big boss? He has resist 5 necrotic which is why I’m asking.

*nods* Correct, nice catch!

At grock: 25 Lightning damage, so no use for that resist.

That's why I was doing it, and I'm glad my memory did not fail me there. Now, if some other poor sap is in range, unless the attack specifies they need to be aimed at the same guy, they will have time to redirect. This is not an interrupt - it is a reaction, and I only get it if they miss, and 1/round.

Is the door to Paldemar's room now open?

Oh, I've already had my turn. I currently act "last" among players, and have technically already done my thing. The "price" of winning initiative.

Your turn will come up again after the rest of us, since the round will cycle back to you at that point.

Technically, our order is Nezumi -> Grock -> Rynoth -> Khalid -> Jhartael, although with us all acting in a block there's nothing to stop us from shifting that order around with delays.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:22, Wed 26 Oct 2022.

I'm currently waiting for a clarification on whether or not the Berserker had attacked me rather than Jhaartael due to it's forced movement into melee with me before I take my turn.

It would then go for you yes - If moved beforehand it will not recharge Jhaartael - that would be illogical for it.

Then it is attacking Nezumi. Hmm. Honestly, all of its choices are bad at that junction, but hey.

I'm gonna play off-tank for a bit here so everyone else can focus on the Warder. In character we may not know about it's defending property but we also have no reason to let the two get close to each other.

In reply to Nezumi (msg # 36):

Why not say we do know in-character? Maybe it's obvious in some way. I don't think it's meant to be a trick in-game.

The party has fought one already IIRC (although only Grock is left from among that group), and Rynoth spent some time dealing with the Mages, in addition to his Arcana-scholar background, so it's reasonable to suppose that we do know about their traits.

In reply to Rynoth (msg # 38):

It's even more reasonable than that. For one thing, there's nothing that requires such effects to be invisible and mysterious. It might be plain as day that the effect is there and what it does. The DM didn't provide that description, but the information is out there, and us just knowing about it doesn't actually provide us any automatic benefit.

Furthermore, the way we take turns attacking, and make only one attack per turn are pure abstractions, and even a harsh word or severe look in 4th Edition can do damage (which of course is also an abstraction), so almost any amount of unfriendly interaction with Paldemar could reveal that there's something supporting him (though they're not close enough yet for the effect to work).

---

Khalid's not really the "pin it in the doorway" kind of defender, but he'll do his best.

I'll decline to use fade away if the warder hits him, because it would only occur after both attacks, and I don't want to escape since all Khalid can do to "pin" it is get in its way.

Now, I have not healed Nezumi, taken a surge from her, given her THP, and I haven't moved Khalid on the map. I did move myself, though. So, those will need to be done.

Edit: And again, unless something is penalizing their Reflex or boosting my attack, I missed, sadly. Unluck is a damn good one, too.
This message was last edited by the player at 08:41, Sun 30 Oct 2022.

I did wind up using fade away. Paldemar is also under my aegis now, thanks to swordmage's decree. This gets a little complicated then: DM can choose which attacks first. If he attacks with the warder first and hits, Khalid will teleport and attack the warder. At least for now, since he can't see Paldemar anyway.

It's interesting: if Paldemar were to hide from Khalid while under the aegis, Khalid could still teleport adjacent to him. He could then make an attack... except he wouldn't actually know which square to target. Have I mentioned I hate the Stealth rules?
This message was lightly edited by the player at 05:55, Wed 02 Nov 2022.

If he was next to Paldemar then cover/concealment would most likely be broken, so no guessing would be necessary.

The main issue would be the invisibility effect that Paldemar can produce, but if he doesn't already have it going (he does right now, unfortunately) then he wouldn't be able to apply that to Khalid in that case (since he can't use his triggered powers on his own turn).
This message was last edited by the player at 05:01, Wed 02 Nov 2022.

Was I supposed to roll for his interrupt myself? I assumed the GM would do that and reverse amy damage that shouldn't have happened. Especially since just like us monsters only have one Immediate per round...

Alright, so check this out, as someone who devoted a lot of time into learning about the Hidden Condition, which has more than one meaning when I say it like that, and I will immediately ruin the joke.

Hidden as in "it is the condition known as Hidden."
And Hidden as in "this is not expressly described in the books, and is 'the Hidden Condition.'"

So unless Paldamar straight up does a Stealth check - which will mean nothing unless he can hide from the entire party, which now that combat has been joined would require some extraordinary steps I do not believe he is willing to take - you will know what square he is in and which one to strike. You will still have a total concealment penalty to strike him, but you won't have to play the guessing game at this point.

Also, if he attacks with the warder and whiffs, I will slide you out of its reach if I can. Unfortunately, this will not grant you the Hidden Condition either, even if you are under Total Concealment and teleport. Becoming Hidden is generally quite deliberate and surprisingly hard to do mid-combat.

In reply to Nezumi (msg # 43):

It's rather complicated, unless we want to wait for the DM to pass every time. I'd do pretty much the same if he'd used the interrupt on you, so it's probably not impossible to figure out.


Sorry, yes, I was assuming becoming hidden while also invisible,


I know, but the way the aegis works is still interesting. IF he were invisible and hidden, I could still teleport adjacent to him. Actually, the DM would have to tell me into which eight squares I could teleport, basically telling me his square.


Khalid? He's not invisible at this point and doesn't have a way to be. I wouldn't want to be hidden anyway, as I hate that condition in combat.

Just to align. PLuck the minds eye has to hit for him to turn invisble, and it is only towards targeted.
He missed, and is fully visible.

As for interupts, yes I should have rolled it and I missed this one. As for AoO's I assume you roll them.

@NEzumi, The HP is returned for the attack.

As someone who has practiced with a lot of Strikers and generally plays far more selfish roles, I felt at some point it was prudent for me to learn all about becoming Hidden. It is both extremely restrictive and extremely powerful in 4E, a fragile and potent condition. It is possible to reset to Hidden mid-combat, but with a few exceptions, requires all lines of sight to you to be broken (usually through Total Cover or Concealment) and a successful Stealth check.

Even then, holding the Condition long enough to strike again while in such a status is no simple feat, as most of the enemies are alerted to your existence and will default to very favorable Perception rolls as a result. If your turn ends with you no longer in some form of cover or concealment, or if you strike someone, you lose Hidden... most of the time. Barring something unusual, a secondary strike from Hidden mid-combat is extraordinary for even character with excellent Stealth, and generally something one has to build their character around doing.

In reply to Storyteller (msg # 46):

OK, if it missed then Khalid's attack hit him for the listed damage, and I may have to think about whether to take my aegis attack against him or the warder.

I'm getting some conflicting information, and while I'm pretty sure Bronzie is occupying the K8-J9 squares, I'm just wanting to make absolutely certain I understand where I am about to try and send this big guy. Because if I can, I'm going to tell it to go to its room and think about what it just did.

The placement is correct on the map that is so no need to spend more time concerned about this.
Go by what the map shows, by all means.

Excellent. So far, so good - I'm surprised that didn't miss. That means it will successfully moonwalk back to its room at the start of its turn. (Which was going to happen anyways even on a miss, but now it has to make a save or I might do it again on its next turn.)

Grock, to reiterate, I healed you myself this time, so confusion should be minimal. You'll probably still be bloodied when your turn starts, unless you are one point over that margin.

I’m fine with the healer adjusting my health score when it happens in their post. No overstep happened. I will post later today.

So to clarify, my attack triggered the interrupt rather than Khalid's so Khalid did damage and can still see the bastard while I did not and can't?

It's an immediate action, so he'd only get to use it once per round. That's probably going to be against whomever attacks him first unless the GM says he'll hold it against a specific attack/enemy.

I'm talking about the round that's nearing completion now..

So did he just use Ranged attacks in melee with me? Can I still see him? Did my attack last round hit or not? I'm so confused...

He used a burst power, which can be both so to speak. It does have range, but used close. Nothing should prevent him from doing that as I read it.

That said, yes your attacks hit. He is only invisible to Khalid.

So whenever I do my turn I can reapply the damage and vulnerability from my attack last round that you had removed?

Ah, yes, if that is what the power does, by all means. Sounds like a slip up on my part!

OAs: If it's typed as an "Area burst" power then it will provoke (regardless of whether it's used against adjacent enemies). If it's a "Close burst" (or "Close blast") then it won't.

AFAIK, Magic Missile is a Ranged power so it would provoke. (It doesn't need to involve an attack roll - being a Ranged power used in threat is enough.)
This message was last edited by the player at 14:58, Fri 11 Nov 2022.

The Magic Missile is the Ranged Attack I was referring to yeah.

Grock is going to close the door on the Warder and hold the doors closed while everyone else piles on the boss.

Day two illness. I will let you know when I can brain again and post.

Day three, illness. Optimism of recovery this day seems premature. Stomach still declaring war on all that trespass on its domain.

Ouch! get well soon mate! The game will be here when you return :)

Well, I am not dead, and my brain works again. You take your defensive victories where they come up.

Well, I don't think that anything Jhartael might do would turn that miss into a hit.

Either way, I'm not sure that we can pull this off with our current resources.

The defensive interrupt triggers on targeting not on hit so you need to see if they're still visible to you.

With Grock holding down the Warder, we should be able to have the remaining four pummel the boss quickly with a heal or two thrown out if possible otherwise some people may have to do a quick Second Wind while we outnumber them.

I have one Majestic Word left, I think. After that, I am empty on healing tricks.

Well, actually...

I have one left. Stirring Shout, aka Pinata Mode - Activated, which I was saving for about this moment.

Hey Jhaartael, you forgot to subtract your damage from Paldemar’s hp in your post.

Still waiting for Rynoth to see if they got hit by pluck the minds eye this round since they procced it by targeting the boss because I don't want to waste my primary damage ability by getting it procced on me...

Well, it'll provoke an OA if he uses it, and it won't make a difference to the attack, so I don't mind if he tries...

I didn't know interrupts or reactions could provoke attacks. Usually they cannot.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 74):

They provoke as normal for what they are. The thing is that one cannot make an opportunity attack on their own turn, so if A attacks B and triggers a reaction that would normally trigger an opportunity attack (a readied action to make a ranged attack, for instance) A cannot then make an opportunity attack against B. C, being another creature able to make opportunity attacks on B, could still make an opportunity attack.

Also, I'll post my actions today.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:13, Sun 20 Nov 2022.

Don't forget to heal 3HP because you hit him. If you need some extra healing while fighting him, hit him.

Any reason I should inflict a vuln other than Ice next turn to set up for my last Encounter power? (I get 2 less damage myself with other types but if someone else can capitalize on a different vuln it's worth using it on another type.)

My most damaging move is likely to inflict thunder on him and grant one of you an attack at the same time. My second option is psychic.

I do not know what the rest of you favor, elementally speaking.

Thunder's on my list. And if you then give me another MBA I can inflict Ice vuln too.

The only elemental attack I have is one with lightning that has already been used.

I can do fire at will, but not with my MBA. And while Paldemar is invisible to him, Khalid will be using his at-will burst.

At this point Rynoth's damage is all psychic or non-elemental except for the remaining glove charges, which can be fire, cold, or acid.

Did the warder get slid back again, or does that happen on Jhaartael's turn?

The warder as I recall is trying to get out of the room but failed. So he is basically stuck behind the door guarded by Grock

The forced slide from Compulsion occurs on its turn. Given that it denies movement while occurring, it basically simulates me forcing this thing to do a river dance all over the place.

Okay, so then it wouldn't actually have been able to get to the door to pound on it (yet).

I believe Paldemar's invisibility is an illusion effect and Khalid has a +5 bonus on saves against illusions.

You are correct - it is an illusion.

The aura from my attack is an Effect not a Hit so Paldemar still gets hit for 3 Ice starting adjacent to Nezumi.

Cool. I've played gnomes a bunch of times and never used that bonus.

Jhartael and Nezumi are both ahead of Rynoth in the initiative order, and looking at my results, that matters because of his interrupt - as well as whether anyone is in Paldemar's face (thereby making the power provoke) by that point.

Oh. Well then. Give me a bit, and I'll have something up. Within three hours, tops.

Nezumi, how about you?

GM: did Jhartael get the interrupt?

Beats me.

Also, the surprise Twi'lek homeworld got themselves 3 HP if they hit Paldamar in his face.

He did. Go ahead assuming so.

Does the 3 damage from the blizzard count?

I am sorry for delay in response - daughter is ill, but plan to do a full round and update tomorrow.
Sorry for testing patience here and hope you are all around for it!

Just checking, did the Warder succeed on his opposed roll against Grock to force open the door? Otherwise, he wouldn’t have been able to hit Grock.

And to answer an earlier question, no, the blizzard doesn't count. It expressly only triggers on a hit, not on an instance of damage.

Also, did Paldemar just use ranged attacks against us (they're described as rays), thereby provoking OAs?

Forgot to roll - but yes - He failed so damage will be adjusted back. I will do it now.

Also, yes you are right, Rays are ranged, and hence provoke OA. If you are able to do so, go ahead and add an OA to your post.

Is the warder taking the -2 penalty for not including Khalid in attacks? I'm not close enough to teleport adjacent, but I'm hoping to change that in upcoming rounds, so.

https://forums.giantitp.com/sh...-Failed-A-Spot-Check

Seeing as how this information is a bit relevant in this encounter I figured I should make sure everyone agrees that it's accurate information.

Oh, this article. I'm familiar with it.

I'm guessing our wizard adversary is just trying to finish us all off before his last HP leave him, and is willing to risk AoO to do it.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 104):

Maybe I'm missing something, but if he's invisible to someone, he doesn't provoke opportunity attacks from them. One must be able to see the target to make an opportunity attack and invisible targets, per the rules, cannot be seen.

Unless you can see the invisible target somehow. He's not invisible to Rynoth, though.

This is correct. Sadly, you must be able to see an enemy to slap them in the face for doing something rash around you. Marks will still trigger, I think, depending on their conditions.

In reply to Rynoth (msg # 106):

I mean, yeah, if you can see them, they're not invisible. Tremorsense and blindsight are the main exceptions there, fortunately not common for PCs.

I was mostly wanting to confirm to make sure my upcoming turn plan could work legally and it sounds like it will. I'll post late tonight or in the morning.

In reply to Nezumi (msg # 109):

What is your upcoming turn plan? We could respond to that directly.

Well, the OA didn't hit. He can't trigger his immediate against Rynoth for trying though, since it happened on his turn!

Just try to hit it despite the difficulty in seeing it. Anyone want a vuln?

By the way, if there was a ruling on this I've missed it. Should I have rolled a save at the end of my last turn? I can roll one now, if I must.

You save against it at the end of the turn, so yes, you get a chance to save out of it at the end of the turn that it was applied. (Weirdly, this is one case where having a start-of-turn save feat might work against you.)
This message was last edited by the player at 09:26, Sat 10 Dec 2022.

Somehow, one final stroke of luck for the road ahead of me.

EDIT: I theorize that his power was meant specifically to mess up characters that throw multiple attacks in a single round, or to mess up the potential for Action Point Nova Time.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:12, Sat 10 Dec 2022.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 115):

Possibly, but mostly I think it's just an oddness of 4th Edition's save-based timing. It's a convenient method of avoiding round tracking, but it can lead to situations in which a power has much less effect than intended. Another one is the rogue power easy target. On a hit, it does 2W damage and the target is slowed and  grants combat advantage, save ends both. On a miss, it's half damage and the target grants combat advantage until the end of the attacker's next turn. So,,, there's a chance that the combat advantage will last for a shorter time if the attacker misses, which seems strange.

(It's not a bad power, though, in my view. If the rogue hits it's more damage and probably sneak attack damage, and they can time it so their allies get combat advantage before the enemy has a chance to save. Besides, the enemy doesn't know they'll save at the end of their turn, and will have to figure out how to avoid another round of attacks with combat advantage, without having the speed to escape. On a miss, the rogue didn't deal sneak attack damage, and so the power guarantees another round of combat advantage to try again. Still, it seems a bit odd.)

The dice love me sometimes. Fuck your invisibility, I'mma wreck your shit anyways!!!

If someone else did not take him down first, I am fairly certain that I just hurt his feelings so badly, that he died from it.

Well, having added insult to injury, you could just choose to have him collapse in an unconscious heap instead...

If we need him alive, or want him alive, sure. I have zero objection to that. He's out of the fight either way, barring something strange.

That could go either way. Orontor probably wouldn't mind having him delivered back for 'debriefing', but he may also fall under the too-dangerous-to-live header.

Bind and gag the undead wizard, and let's drag him back.

I’m good either way.

Is he actually dead-dead or just disabled?

I hurt his feelings really badly there at the end, so I hope he's ok. I have a feeling that becoming a test subject for the mages is not the ending he would have wanted.

Any further input, before we proceed?`
He is so disabled he is no threat.

Well... did we get anything from the items there?

Ah, yes - the traditional victory sweep of a given room. Our prize, such as it is, beyond triumph and survival. The ability to fund the next expedition, and maybe retire at that point if such is a character's disposition.

I will summarize briefly, just to ensure everything is advanced, anything else is silly at this point.

I was thinking more in the way of info (what with the book and such) rather than payoff; Rynoth himself is mainly interested in working out what Paldemar was up to - and what else he may still have going that needs to be dealt with.

Updated ingame and here link to a message in this game
This message was last edited by the GM at 11:28, Tue 20 Dec 2022.

Sorry I haven't been very active. My skills aren't very helpful for this stuff and I've been busy the last few days to boot. I'm still interested in continuing playing.

I will update 2nd of January. Enjoy the time off all!

Sorry for absence. I have been off sick for longer than planned and still somewhat under. I am almost back to health, so hope to make a push tomorrow. That said, shall I assume that:

• Take Paldemar.
• Go through the portal to the mages
• Hand him over, discuss(or not) with Orentor what to do next(the shadow sea beneath and the  pyramid) or not at all.
• Restock, and head off to either of above?

If so, I can at least on the first points create a scene shift tomorrow.
Again, sorry for the delay and hope you have had a great Christmas and New Years!

The Shadow Sea is the nearer of the two goals and it sounds like there are captives down there, so I think that will be the first objective.

Perhaps. We need to know if it is something we can challenge. Likely to be the case, though. Let's get rid of the withered wizard and collect our prizes before we determine our next challenge.

I'm generally game for stuff like the Shadow Sea.

Well, yes. It's still going to be in the point-three place on the list!

Shadow Sea is good for me.

Sounds good, I will advance the story that way.

Sorry for delays, I got hit hard with COVID and am still recovering - but able to update whenever possible today. So look out for that.

Since there's not really any items made FOR the Hexblade can I use items that would actually work on it but are written for Warlock's Curse to improve my Hexblade Pact bonus damage feature?

Specifically I'm looking at the Gloves of Eldritch Admixture to give my bonus damage a type other than that of the attack it's being added to.

I am not opposed to that. Can you provide an example of what it should do/appear as in PM's?

I've already got those gloves!


I don't see why it wouldn't be workable with the Hexblade, but since Warlock's Curse is a 1/turn trigger, the damage-swap should be similarly limited to one use/one target per turn (since the gloves weren't written assuming that they could be used to affect every target in an AoE).

I have a few item creation rituals. Give me the resources, and I will give you whatever I can make.

Also, implements, like rods or wands. Don't those improve the blade?

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 143):

Sadly no implement enchantments are likely to give me what I'm wanting to get from this item. That being changing at least part of my untyped damage to Ice or other elemental damage types.

In reply to Nezumi (msg # 144):

There isn't a "frost rod" like there is a "frost weapon"?

I have one that boosts damage with ice and has ice crits but not changing damage types. I don't expect such a thing because implement powers are all typed AFAIK.

Can my item be a potion bandolier set with 6 potions of Healing?

If they work like Rynoth suggests, I am fine with it Nezumi. If nothing else we can try and if we need to retune lets do so.

@Grock - that is fine :)

So one use/turn restriction but otherwise it works? Pretty sure the only ability that it might be usable with is my single target standard action MBA replacement anyways so all that restriction means is that I can't change damage types on my AoO's bonus damage or if I Action Point to do my at-will twice. I'll take it.

I'm rebuilding Rynoth as an artificer rather than a warlock. The theme still works for both his story and the more general one, and even his accouterments will largely remain the same. Group-wise, it's also a better fit to what we have now vs what we seemed to need when I started.

In reply to Rynoth (msg # 150):

Cool, I think artificers are neat in 4th Edition.

Doubling up on Leaders? Let's see - two Strikers, one Defender, two Leaders...

I'll create a backup. Been a while since I've messed with a true Controller rather than an off one. I know their job, though.

Still kicking myself for the micromistakes made during the fight.

Artificer dabbles fairly strongly in the Controller role as it is, so there isn't really anything missing there - certainly no more so than there was before.
This message was last edited by the player at 06:07, Tue 10 Jan 2023.

Okay, so...

In addition to the "everyone in the group gets a +2 power bonus to Endurance checks" that was there before, Rynoth's aptitude for tinkering gives everyone another benefit: whenever you use a magic item daily power you gain 7 temporary hit points (in addition to whatever the item does).

He can also recharge item daily powers. Starts with one recharge after an extended rest and gains one more per milestone, so probably no more than 3-4 recharges to go around in total during an expedition, but it's still helpful if anyone is using them.


His 2/encounter leader healing power (Healing Infusion) has a beneficial complication: recharging its uses requires a donation of a healing surge for each use recharged. He can use his own, or he can take them from other PCs. (Technically, they can come from NPCs as well...)

That sounds like a major downside, but it comes with a corresponding upside: the target of the healing power doesn't need to spend a surge. This effectively allows the Healing Infusion power to be used to redistribute healing surges within the group - if one person has become really banged up, they can be healed using surges from people who aren't!

Healing Infusion also has three different applications, only one of which is actual healing. The others are to grant some encounter-long resistance to an energy type (which can be expended to get one-round immunity to it), or to grant a +1 power bonus to AC (which can be expended to gain temporary hit points, and since it's a free action, you can do this when something hits you to ablate the damage).


Having a bard's stronger direct healing (and save-granting) is still a great combination alongside this, mind you.


...and, just to give the GM one more headache, he also has an encounter interrupt to protect an ally who has just been hit. Timing and positioning? Who needs to worry about that?
This message was last edited by the player at 06:07, Tue 10 Jan 2023.

In reply to Rynoth (msg # 154):

And if you don't have an item to recharge, you can a augment weapon or implement for a one-time +2 on an attack roll that can be added after the roll.

I love artificers.

I do? :D

Oh, one thing I forgot to ask:

Those ritual scrolls we picked up. Are we saving those in case I go down, or can I use them up to add them to my ritual book?

Umm. I don't remember them. Which ritual scrolls?

..speaking of which, Rynoth has Ritual Caster now too.

Excuse me - Paldamar's ritual book. Had Arcane Lock, Brew Potion, and Leomund’s Secret Chest in it. I have Brew Potion already, and the other two are niche in their applications, given our profession. Good for fortification and security, but those do not come up often for us.

Or when they do, we need them right now, and don't have ritual time to wait.

Hrm. Okay. If it was a ritual book then it can be copied without using it up, IIRC? I haven't looked at those rules for quite a while.


Right, looked it up: copying from a book doesn't use it up and a scroll can't be copied. OTOH we don't actually need to copy anything as long as we have the original book. We just need 16 hours each to master the two rituals in there that we don't know yet.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:10, Sun 15 Jan 2023.

Secret Chest? Does that work like the PF spell of the same name? (Sans wizard name obviously) If so that's great for getting extra storage space for loot.

It's one of the original D&D spells, so it's essentially the same.

There is a casting cost each time you use it, so we wouldn't want to use it for trivial stuff, but for dealing with severe overload (or keeping it full of emergency supplies), it's great. Since you can send the chest back afterward, it's also a good way of sending away something that shouldn't be kept close.

I can't think of anything to add, other than to insure we are topped off on proper ritual components.

Since components aren't exactly cheap, did we get cash at some point, or is there a party fund somewhere?

Actually we have not touched upon this at all. From my notes, you should have(and I have not advised so since I am a silly person!) roughly 1200 gold in various coins.
That should allow for potions, food, and rituals to be used.

I have been toying with cutting the price in halfon rituals as I often see them overlooked or unused due to cost. If the group is keen to use them, this might be something to try out and adapt if too powerful.


Also, do I sense correctly that we should advance to the area near the entrance to the sea of shadows or do you need a moment more?
This message was last edited by the GM at 14:15, Mon 23 Jan 2023.

In reply to Storyteller (msg # 165):

I generally found that the pre-written modules simple didn't provide much need for rituals. There's little wilderness travel (so no need for most exploration and travel rituals), no pursuit as such (so no need for warding rituals), no advantage to communicating over long distances. If things like that were in, and troublesome enough, then rituals start to make sense.

I had a player who really wanted to use rituals. In King of the Trollhaunt Warrens, there's some wilderness exploration and so he made spectral mounts to move them along and avoid obstacles. But the adventure didn't advise on how to account for this, or even obtaining normal mounts, so there wasn't a clear benefit to it.

Reading through the rituals, one can get a sense of the "shape" of the game in which rituals would matter. To make them matter at all, the game has to have a shape along those lines.

I find most rituals are meant for downtime between adventures especially if the group has established a home base they operate out of or the enemy comes after them in the base.

In reply to Grock (msg # 167):

I don't find that most or even many fit that decription, outside of the Warding category, but even if so, that's sort of what I'm saying; it's not cost that really matters, it's need. I don't think a ritual should ever be required in order to accomplish something, but it should be a convenience. Which leads to another issue: time pressure. Rituals can be a way to save time, for a cost, but if there's no time pressure, who cares? And published adventures rarely have time pressures on the scale of days or hours, and usually not even on the scale of minutes or rounds.

There's a few rituals I can use offhandedly, at no cost. One of the perks of being a bard. Rituals are mostly used to substitute in-game time and currency for a particular weak point in the party structure.

I'm not high enough level to have the good teleporty stuff. Not yet. I also lack Raise Dead.

If the party has access to specific rituals then an adventure can be written assuming that they're available and can/will be used (warning the city that's weeks away, so you don't have to make the arduous overland trip while racing the clock, etc), or even that that specific ritual is the one thing that will save the day (good thing that the heroes are there and know it!), but pre-made ones don't have that advantage, so they tend not to address it unless the ritual is likely to be obtained in the adventure itself.

So, when they do get used, you kind of have to wing it. Sometimes it might entirely bypass a major plot point or adventure segment, but that's okay - it's kind of the point of having that sort of trick in your arsenal, and rituals with that kind of potential are rarely super-cheap.


1200 gp: we can make a few potions and perhaps a very basic magic item if anyone is feeling that they have a serious gap in their capabilities. Otherwise, we might as well hold onto it for now.

I don't think it's the case yet, but if anyone has an obsolete item that they'd rather exchange for something else then Rynoth might be able to help with that too.



Otherwise, we can probably hop ahead to the lake.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:27, Mon 23 Jan 2023.

Wouldn’t mind looking into some of the potions. Might want some for the rest of the group to have necrotic resistance.

Sure, but I don't think rituals should be specifically required or worked into an adventure, unless it's a McGuffin of some kind. Rituals should be like any other PC option: more or less likely to be useful, but not required.


Sometimes NPCs in adventures offer restoration rituals. But I just think that the adventure writers could have shown more awareness of the existence of rituals and made some standard adventuring situations that would be at least a little easier with an applicable ritual. It wouldn't be hard for a situation to involve something that would be useful but is broken beyond repair, and for the adventure to list the cost of using Make Whole on it. And adventure could incorporate a treasure item that weighs hundreds of pounds, something like a statue or a throne or a sarcophagus lid; the players might find a way to get it out, or sell the location for money, or something, but for just 10 gp per day, they could simple take it back to town with them on a Floating Disk.

I believe that some of the skill challenges in Demonomicon even advise how to incorporate rituals in skill challenges. Too little, too late, though.


That's not okay with me, honestly, which is why I try to avoid having major plot points in my adventures.

I can wing it when rituals get used, but I'd also like there to be authentic reasons for players to say "I'm going to buy such-and-such ritual at the next opportunity, so this doesn't happen again."

I have, for when you are ready to leave town raised a new thread for the sea of shadows. When you go there is up to you naturally.

Alright, if we're going with potions:

40 gp: Potion of Resistance (Necrotic): Resist 5 Necrotic until the end of the encounter.
50 gp: Gravespawn Potion: Resist 5 Necrotic and Resist 5 Poison, +5 save vs Disease (up to level 5) until the end of the encounter.

Both require you to lose a surge when you use them.

I'm not sure whether it's worth going for the gravespawn potions over the basic ones; the disease resistance is kind of niche, but there may be times where we're facing both damage types. We could do one gravespawn and 2-3 necrotic ones each? (Other resistances are also an option if anyone has a good reason to expect them.)

Gravespawn is actually a veteran's choice. You would be surprised how many undead encounters have you dealing with both damage types. Disease resistance, however, is a perk I don't recall it adding, but it is appreciated against the more septic strains.

Pay the extra ten gold, would be the advice of a veteran undead hunter.

Well, if the two of them spent a day doing it... 3 for each character @ 750 gp total?

In reply to Storyteller (msg # 173):

I do still need a number for how much I need to pay for Baaz's housing for the next leg of our adventure whenever you're able to provide it.



That sounds good to me, might be good to pick up one or two more everburning torches too. (I know Nezumi doesn't have one.)

Housing is fairly inexpensive for a wee one like him. If you can settle for an average inn and food, a single gold piece can last him many many days. So assume that.

Everburning torches are 50gp each? So two more for 100gp. 850 spent total.

Rynoth could carry one since he doesn't use anything off-hand.

I have one. Also, for anyone who doesn't use stealth, consider having your weapons glow like a torch. We could probably do that as part of the Enchant Magic Item ritual at no or near to no cost.

...if that's still an option in this edition. I can never remember. I might be thinking of That Older Edition of D&D.

I recall having the light spell of on an Ioun stone back in the day. Just made light issues much easier and freed up hands. Unsure if 4e have something similar. But a valuable investment to have a light source.

I'm not so fond of doing to weapons mainly because it's a problem if you're trying to be inconspicuous, especially for weapons that can't simply be jammed into a scabbard to cover them up.

Wish I could make my Blade of Chaos glow. It literally doesn't exist unless I draw it from the aether.

I'll give them 2 gold and a promise to cover any remainder on my return should we be gone longer than the 2gp covers.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 180):

Some weapons and items state specifically that they can emit light. Other weapons like a fire or lightning weapon plausibly would anyway. There's no separate "emit light" option, but it doesn't seem game breaking to just add that where people want it. Light and vision are among the most annoying aspects of the game for me anyway, since it's tricky to keep track of. It's cheap to deal with, so why not assume that we do?

I will update statblock etc early monday, so you have time to decide until then how to approach the foes before you.

I believe we've had an extended rest, so please update the PC status block of you repost it.

Whoever updates their shit next please put my AP in for me. I forgot to fix that and now someone else has already responded so editing it would feel weird.

I'm working myself up to it. It will likely be late tonight or morning, but it will get done, if no one beats me to it.

I edited my post to set everyone's APs to 1. I didn't change anything else.

I'll post when I wake up. Apologies for holding up the game. Was and am more occupied than expected.

Do we have our surges back yet? If not, my Song of Rest increases surges spent in rest by three HP each. Not much, but it will have to do. I'm just determining how much I should heal everyone for.

We had a long rest. Just apply that when you post your initiative.

Alright. If there is further cleaning up to do, I'm certain either the next in line, or the GM, will note and deal with it.

Khalid doesn't seem to be on the map, unless that small one is meant to be him.

I've un-shrunk that image, but I think it's Nezumi?

Fixed map, added tokens, added descriptions of hazards etc and updated initiative.
Just lack Grock initiative, and you can conduct actions as needed.

Well, at least one of us is relatively quick-acting. I suppose it won't matter as much if the wraiths have to spend a turn getting to us, but still.

Jhaartel and Grock, go ahead.

Give me until tomorrow morning. Thinking about sliding Grock up four extra squares. Or Khalid, to give them some backup.

I will post after him when/if Grock is slid.

I should save that for an escape route, or for an immediate engagement. It feels too soon. I'm not a warlord - my role is different.

Do I have it right that the squares on the map have been made four times bigger than the image suggests?

I'm a little unsure about the grid myself. As is, we're dealing with a pretty tiny lake, and those bridges are awfully thin for having been built by minotaurs.

I reshaped the map. You should be able to stand two aside one another on the bridges. The squares fit better now.

Did Grock not hit the nearest wraith with his sling stone?

I will try and have a post up before I go to sleep.

Server's been knocked out by weather. Will attempt to get post ASAP.

Going back to an earlier topic for a moment since I was reviewing the new character sheet: Rynoth will not be carrying an everburning torch because he doesn't need to: he still has a floating lantern along with the other magic trail gear (everlasting provisions and instant campsite)!

Alright, I've posted a turn since I'm free to do it at the moment, although since he's technically last in the initiative order he might have to move to give out the magic weapon bonus. If everyone ends up in a clump then he may be able to give it to more than one person, but I don't know whether clumping up is tactically sound right now.

The interrupt potentially blocks the damage from the attack that just hit, whether because it drops the attacker with the damage, or by the resistance reducing or stopping the damage (along with any further damage that round). It's really nice, but it's also a once-per-encounter deal, unless Rynoth gets his hands on a Power Jewel at some point.

I should be able to post my move in a day or so.

With the auras these things have, us clumping up is a bad idea. This fight is going to be rather punishing of me and my lack of AoEs.

Need Grock at least to post and I shall update. In reality all could post but yeah, once he has at least I will check in.

Logging on now to post.

I'm happy for force damage to overcome insubstantial, since I have a force at-will, but is that an intentional house-rule? Normally, force damage doesn't inherently ignore insubstantial.

Oddly enough, that is what the statsheet states. If hit by force it ignores their insubstantial bonus. Does it make sense? Yes and no, but it is what it is. So it is specific to them I reckon.

I think it's written into the stat blocks of pretty much every insubstantial creature (or at least every insubstantial undead creature) rather than being tied to the damage type itself, similar to how undead have universal (or nearly so) vulnerability to radiant damage.

I've just run MM1 specters before and it didn't state that force damage made a difference. But if it does here, that's fine with me.

I can't find my MM1 at the moment, and there aren't any wraiths in the MM2 or MM3 at a glance. The MV entry definitely has the "half damage except from force, lose this trait for a turn if it takes radiant" version of insubstantial.

It also lacks explicit radiant vulnerability, presumably because the trait loss stands in for that.


So I guess this is another case of "updates not properly back-ported".



At least we have some force and radiant options this time...
This message was last edited by the player at 17:13, Wed 22 Feb 2023.

Probably, but I also like that the "same" monster can work differently. And it bugs me when rules about something like a damage type are hidden in something like the rules for a resistance type.

I just got to look at the map.

They've got Grock surrounded.

How sad.

For them.

And now they're all in a different clump for a followup AoE! Alas, I don't think that most of these things actually attack vs AC, or Grock would also be pretty much untouchable for a turn.


I may add a move for Rynoth if everyone else ends up relocating, but if we're all staying more or less where we are then he won't buck the trend.

Well, we seem to have hit a stall...

Sorry been busy with work. Will post tonight.

Sorry, been having some difficulties with self motivation lately due to recent US and world news which don't help when I already have to lie on the floor/futon to use my computer and make posts here because we still haven't been able to afford to get any furniture since we moved in mid December. Fiance is working a TON of overtime the next couple weeks so depending how expensive my medical trip ends up being later this month we might be able to get some furniture when we get back.

I'll try to get on by Saturday morning.

My power is restored, and my memory has returned. I'll have something up before I call it a night.

I confess to some difficulty interpreting the data in front of me. Still, I'd rather sound like an idiot and ask something obvious, than assume incorrectly and be proven one.

The closest foe to us seems to be a Specter at point N10-N11. I am extremely positioning dependent, so I am asking - that information in Grock's table. All of that is accurate? Trust the numbers, not my eyes?

I updated all of the position entries as best I could on my turn, but that one is sitting squarely on the junction of M/N/10/11, so... I'm not sure, hence the ? on it.

In reply to Rynoth (msg # 227):

I don't think this was specified anywhere, so I specified it. I doubt it makes much difference.

I kept my turn relatively conservative. None of the enemies have been marked, and it is mostly a loss of minions thus far. No weird terrain we can use, no designations added yet. There's time later for me to be crazy.

Well, if Nezumi has a nice AoE to lob into the middle of that convenient clump...

I think I might be able to do an AoE if I can get into position.

Waiting for your turn still?

Sorry, I'll get it done this afternoon while my partner's at work.

Sorry, I forgot yesterday. Definitely today. I don't have much, if any, ranged abilities so I probably won't be able to actually do any attacks though.

Can you at least update the locations for the specters to be accurate? I can fix the other issues, one of which is my fault for forgetting to mark my Temp HP on the chart when I make my own post this afternoon.

I think they're all listed for where they should be now.

I'm not sure why we still keep that in the charts when we have the map, although this map has an ambiguous enough grid to be unclear at times.

Three more PCs to go?

Today should be less personally dramatic, so I should be able to deliver some ham today.

EDIT: I was wrong. I will deal with this when I awaken.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:23, Sat 18 Mar 2023.

Doubles post, but Nezumi - I absolutely need you to slap that ghost in the face, because reasons. Don't forget the power bonus.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 239):

Should I have used a type different than Cold for the Vuln application? Too late now I suppose, but I did the thing.

With a bard? I think they use psychic more than anything else, although thunder is probably in there too?

I'm not sure about Khalid or Grock.

Rynoth doesn't really have a specific elemental focus. Thunder is the only one on an at-will. Otherwise he has one each of lightning, thunder, and cold for encounters; and fire and psychic for dailies.

The psychic one does last for the entire encounter and would be quite nasty when paired with vulnerability to psychic, but he'd almost certainly be putting it up at the beginning of the fight.


Most of his stuff is less about direct damage than boosting the damage of allies or playing chess with the enemies, though.

I could've done Thunder but Psychic isn't in my list.

It's rather unclear what all the abbreviations for the wraith are for, but I think Khalid takes 5 damage for starting in the aura. That's fine, he can take it, as long as the leaders stay on top of it.

5 psychic damage, AFAIK. It will also get to slide him 2 spaces, but he can presumably just use a move action to get right back where he was.

Rynoth has used his two encounter heals (even though they didn't actually heal, per se), so it'll be up to Jhaartael to cover anyone who drops low. Rynoth can give someone a saving throw if needed, though.

If we kept the halves then the one I hit and started by me would be dead at the start of it's turn. Even without that it's health should be lower than it was when I whacked it since it started it's turn in my damage aura.

BTW: The damage aura is a Creatures one not an Enemies one so entering the storm hurts allies too.

In reply to Nezumi (msg # 245):

You are correct, I will update post.

Everyone should be more clearly placed on the map now.

Unless the wraith-master is moved or removed, Nezumi is the only one not starting her turn in the aura.

Sorry Khalid, I think I'm going to be doing a couple damage to you with my last Encounter power use's aura as I hit the wraith master with it.

In reply to Nezumi (msg # 248):

Khalid lives to serve.

You'll be fine. For a certain definition. I will shake off the Lazies and post today.

Oh, doubles post, but one thing of note:

If an enemy misses you, let me know if you want to slide one square, and let me know if you want the enemy going into the square you vacated or not. I can only do this for one of you, and only if they mess up, but this can rewrite the battle.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 251):

DM, please make sure you post misses, not just damage.

Ah! Of course, I have made it a habit not to, but certainly, I will isolate rolls to make it easier and clearer for you!

In reply to Storyteller (msg # 253):

Did you do the aura damage this time?

I should have fewer HP after taking 26 damage. I'll correct it when I post, if no one else has by then.

Not by much. I gave you a stack of THP. Don't forget it.

Edit: I called it "tmp" for some reason I will blame on sleep patterns.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:19, Fri 31 Mar 2023.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 256):

I did forget it, but I'm not usually the one who adjusts my HP. It didn't jump out at me when I scanned my HP on earlier posts. I'll have to look again, but what should my HP be currently?

What they are now. I checked and edited when I wrote my post.

Both remaining enemies are now marked. Whichever non-Khalid-including attack hits first on the DM's turn, Khalid will teleport adjacent (prioritizing flanking, followed by getting out of the aura) and make a melee basic attack. DM, you can adjudicate that if you would like.

Waiting on Nezumi and Jhaartael?

Aye. I will have something up when I next wake up. Always one thing or another.

If it were a 7 I would've taken it in place of my 1. 5 is still a miss though.

Is that 5 available to someone until your EONT? If so, Rynoth might actually be able to use it. (11 + 5 = 16 Fort - enough to hit the specter if someone's in position for Thundering Armor.)

Maybe not optimal, but still usable.

My instinct told me to give it to Nezumi, and it is optional. Unluck lets me roll a d20 and have the option of replacing an ally's roll with that. It also lets me replace an enemy's roll with mine and... I didn't get so lucky there, unless someone makes them swing at someone on their side.

EDIT 04/09/2023 0205: Gripped by a fey mood. Hopefully sleep will get rid of it. The kids should wake me up early enough, and I should be able to do this today between watching them.

EDIT THE EDIT 04/10/23 0604: More tired than I thought. Realized I left a note saying I needed to post... at the bottom of my own post, and later looked at it and assumed I needed to post.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:04, Mon 10 Apr 2023.

I will update shortly.

Hey, I can finally move one of you.

Khalid, I can slide you one square, and I have the option to slide an adjacent enemy into the square you just left. How you want this playing out?
This message was last edited by the player at 11:29, Wed 12 Apr 2023.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 266):

Slide things so I can catch them both in a close burst 1, please.

Ask and you shall receive!

There is no reason to do it anymore. Pass on reposition.

I figure that it's better we leave the others in place since they've already got flanking (and it'll mean less grief with that aura if the master isn't taken down this round).

I'm bad about quick on the draw, but it is one of my days where I have some backup. I should have a post later today or tonight.

If I forget to mention what vuln I apply just assume it's Cold.

I am aware that the forced surrender invocation might be quite contentious, but we've pretty much won. This just makes it formal and with fewer rolls.

A 12 hp spectre is yes, just a waste of time to run - I will update shortly. Heck, it could be fun to run with this. I will address is asap.

Even without that we're at the point of, "You finish off the specter, and..."
This message was last edited by the player at 13:44, Wed 19 Apr 2023.

Definitely.

I wish there was better guidance about when a fight to the death can end. I never really liked morale rules, but now I see that they're a good way to end something that is plausibly a foregone conclusion.

I had a DM one time who had a “cresting” rule. There comes a point in every battle when, unless there is an outside influence, the heroes have outnumbered the enemies and have enough health to where they won’t drop them the battle was “crested”. The DM ended the fight and took off x amount of healing surges that would equal the approximate amount of health that would have been lost.

To my knowledge, an NPC cannot do this to a player. Doing it to an enemy requires them to be Bloodied, and to make an Intimidate check equal to their Will +10. If you fail, you cannot try again, although you can assist another. For me to try that without getting two assists first was reckless, and honestly should not have worked. I have acquired karma that I should have gotten slapped down for as a result of that.

Even if you succeed, there is a lot of latitude in the interpretation of "surrender." The only constant is that they will not fight you anymore using attack actions or the like for the rest of the battle.

In reply to Grock (msg # 277):

The thing about that is that in most battles (ignoring the fight at the kobold hideout in KotS) there's not much of a chance of the monsters taking out the PCs. So: why are they fighting the PCs at all?

Maybe the monsters don't know how powerful the PCs are. OK, so, when do they learn that? That's when they'd quit trying to beat them. And can the PCs trick the monsters into believing the PCs are too powerful to mess with?

Maybe the monsters are fanatics under orders by an uncaring leader. OK, but then what see those leaders trying to accomplish? And how do they know if their forces are succeeding or not, in order to adjust the kinds of forces they're sending?

Too much thinking in this direction leads to fights that are too realistic, I think. Monsters only attacking when they have overwhelming odds for instance. But it's worth thinking about.

Insane and mindless creatures might keep attacking when it's hopeless, and there are lots of those in D&D.

The old morale systems actually tried to handle that. I didn't understand it when I first started playing, because I was used to fights to the death in video games. But the Basic rules were actually pretty thoughtful about this aspect of play.

Then there's the question of how punishing to make the "unplayed" portion of combat. I guess the last couple rounds would be a good guide, in most cases.

Often, it is a matter of appearance. If one side outnumbers someone, and they've lived a life of "we are inherently superior to the weak mortal races", they're going to be fairly confident in their odds of victory, especially if they've killed all comers thus far. PCs have a lot of edges in their favor that cannot be seen.

Which brings back another appearance issue - like in the game Sifu, anyone could be a trained fighting machine. They could be some office worker, an unemployed apartment dweller, a raver, an artist, a chef, or whatever. You never know what a person is in a fight until you see them fight and it is difficult to extract yourself.

And then there is sunk-cost, which 4E PCs in particular are prone to. We have the same weakness our foes do, in that we are efficient as a unit, but if one of us goes down, the others have to either press on for victory and hope for the best, or perish as one. The only window for retreat is if the Defender goes down first, having done their job as well as they can. After that window passes, there will not be a second unless you fight at range. Once the Defender goes down, it is victory or defeat shortly after.

So I get why a lot of enemies are overconfident and fight to the finish. Not only is the idea of losing laughable to them, but the very game mechanics - the physics of the setting - discourage retreat and encourage aggression. If there is mercy in the setting, it comes from the PCs and nowhere else.

Sorry for the delay, had hectic days and you have all waited for me patiently, sorry! I will get to it asap!

Oh, things of note:

1) If you spend a healing surge at rest, I increase the value by three HP, because I am awesome.

I am not making this up, that's what Song of Rest does.

2) Because I am using a magic item just for that purpose, everyone will be gaining 9 THP to start off the next fight.

I can only do this stuff during a short rest, so here we go.

3) Because Swordmages are often what I only describe as Reverse Fighters, they often do not want the shield, because their mechanics are hilarious and awesome. They want to run from the guy they mark, and they don't wear heavy armor because they defend themselves with their brain, through the anticipation of danger.

I do not know if that will hold true here, so if Khalid wants it, I have no argument against it. I think all of us can use it, but I am not near the front often enough to justify me having it, so that eliminates myself.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 282):

I don't always want to run, but it's nice to have the option.

What shield are you referring to?

Edit: Oh. No I'd don't want the shield. I don't have proficiency anyway.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:49, Tue 25 Apr 2023.

If Khalid is using a daily item power then he'd also gain 7 THP - but I don't think that stacks. Ah well.

None of us are shield users, AFAIK.

Consider it something you can sell or exchange at the seven pillared halls.

I am a shield user, but it isn't particularly high priority to me. Bear in mind, anything that keeps my squishy end alive is welcome. I'm just not a front-liner and usually do not see this as priority.

Re the in-game post, we have two (parallel?) bridges going to the same plateau with a watch tower on it? Do the bridges both arrive at the base of the watch tower, or is one further away from it?

Poorly told but yes, both goes to a large plateau one west side, one east side, the tower being closer to the eastern one.
So it should have been clear but wasn't sorry!

Up the tower or onwards?

Whether we like it or not, traditionally when there is no scouting, it is the Defender who decides direction. If the party tank says, "I'm going that way" backed with sufficient conviction, everyone else has to make a decision:

1) Follow the party frontline.
2) Ignore the party frontline, and risk entering an engagement without the frontline somewhere other than the front line.

This could be an interesting encounter, but there's no real reason to interact with it.

Three favor, two against, but one of those two is the party Defender, and his actions count as two extra votes most of the time, which would make the final vote four against/three favor. My math is rarely wrong on these subjects. So, it's up to action.

If no actions get declared on anyone else's part, Jhaartael would absolutely initiate contact, so I know what I'm doing if the situation prolongs to a point where the GM goes crazy.

In reply to Jhaartael (msg # 292):

I'd love to have some combat or even some interaction. We could probably handle it. I'd just like a slight bit of in-game rationale for the risk. Someone in trouble, a piece of treasure or info we need, anything.

Also, I will back up anyone who takes aggressive action.

They're already here therefore they might know something we don't.

I took action to back us off. I'll back up anyone who takes definite action.

Khalid will accompany Jhaartael, but will be unarmed. He can call his sword to himself, but at least he'll seem less overtly dangerous.

GM, could we get the stats/power for that orb? (Rynoth should be able to work it out in detail given his background.)

is this fine?

Okay, next question: which of us can use an orb as an implement?

If a big issue, I would be fine with us "amending" the implement type, as not many can use orbs(Wizards?)

Grock can’t

In reply to Storyteller (msg # 300):

And psions.

Okay, so a wand or a dagger or a (whatever else). Any preferences? Or volunteers to use it? ;)

I like my +2 cold damage passive property thanks.

So, off hand use it is for me.

Now, before I try to spring some dumb interpretation on the GM - the Daily attached to that Orb. Is this required to be an attack issued from the Orb, or can it just be held in the off-hand and then activated after some other attack from you hits the target? I suspect the former interpretation, but I hope one understands why I might be hoping for the latter.

RAW, you have to attack with the orb to use any of its powers on that attack.

This particular orb could be an exception since it's designed with a purpose (and may not work outside of that purpose).

I would argue, saying ANY ATTACK, and not your attack, and being a story item so to speak, that it works with any attack hit - and I will lean on this for thematic reasons.

So by all means assume so, and progress forward if you desire.

I am asking just be sure, as no one wrote aside myself, if vacation season is in play.
I will check daily but if any of you are around, do advise.

I posted last and just waiting for direction. Should we all just try to stealth up to the next area and take a peek?

Didn't have a short-term reply in mind, so I'm still here.

Still here. Khalid isn't the stealthiest gnome, but he's game to try.

I was under the impression that we were waiting for GM activity myself...

Yes. The orb became (whatever it was) and we're moving ahead.

*Shrug* Well I have made a mess of things then!
My bad! I shall get into the game shortly, so sorry!

I feel like I either need a little more to react to, a little more guidance/reminder as to what we're supposed to do, or some assurance that I can improvise without causing problems. I assume there's a pre-written skill challenge here, but I'm more than happy to outline something I want to accomplish (with help, ideally) and either help craft a skill challenge for it, or leave it to the DM.

I was mainly waiting for the GM to acknowledge that we were underway again, but if we're going to proceed regardless then... well, he warped some magical flows once. Doing it here is likely to be a lot more dangerous, but the ritual is probably far more prone to collapsing too.

Its on me.
I have struggled for time for a bit, and focus has been all over the place.
There is in fact no skill challenge and it is open ended for a reason. At least book and gamewise - I will state, to make it clear, that I allow free thinking and will adapt to it.
If something is rigid and should be done in one way it is either poorly designed or should be limited in a sensible way.
You have the option to stop matters, but how is your call.
To make it clear as I can see the confusion.
The shadow binders have focus on the mages, which are those who perform the ritual and must be freed.
The warders remain there as constructs action only in defense.
You know there is a large shadow dragon from the witch..somewhere.
And breaking the bond between binder and mage breaks the ritual.
So something to focus on.

Tried to clear up things. If it does still not help, let me know and I will find a way to make it more straightforward.

How high up are the mages and shadows (and for that matter, the dragon)? I expect that they're out of melee range, at the very least?

Dragon is currently not in sight so can not say. At least 50 feet up.
The mages and binders are ground level on the platform ahead, near you, but you have to get close to them to engage so to speak. So much more managable.

Do the shadows have to be destroyed to break their hold over the mages or would moving them away be enough?

A guess would be that they are actively controlling them, so disrupting or killing them is at least at a glance the best bet.

I have some thoughts on how to approach this without getting mobbed by warders, but I need to take the time to review the description. I'll try to post this weekend.

"Don't hit the wardens" would be the main rule? Just make sure you keep your AoE away from them.

If you can make a shade hit a warden, maybe...

I see two approaches, actually. One is careful fire, as per the likely intended path.

The other is refuge in audacity, and involves unloading on all of them. Even the wizards of Sarunn struggle to control more than one of these at a time. Trying to control a lot of them would tax even an ancient mind.

If they're actually under control rather than just operating on Paldemar's last orders.

Also, "defend my owner" seems likely to be a default behavior, so I wouldn't count on overload working even then.

See what happens if one mage is released. Weakening the ritual is a good start, and maybe they'll actually be able to help with the rest.

So... which will we do?

In reply to Rynoth (msg # 327):

Unload on all of them!

I've finally taken the time to read the description closely and look over the map.

I think I get it, though I'm not clear where the "hundreds" of bronze warders are. Most are off the map, I guess.

Fighting the warders isn't going to work if they're like the ones we've faced before. Khalid will be able to gauge this I assume and not try to take them out.

So, I change my response to trying to release a mage and see what happens.

So, now we determine who is with us, player wise. Nazumi seems to be gone. That's a great deal of single target elimination that we no longer have.

Been quiet because nothing seemed to need my input. I'm still around and reading updates within a day of when they happen usually.

Did that non-combat encounter put us at a milestone to start this one with an action point? If so that puts Nezumi starting this encounter with 59/59 hp, 6/9 surges, and 3/5 glove charges with 1 action point. If not, then she doesn't have an action point. Did I pop dailies during that last encounter or is my sheet outdated from the other dungeon where power uses are concerned? I'll have to go back farther I guess.

EDIT: Sheet's power tracking was outdated. Also, for clarification: 2 surges spent on healing during short rest and 1 spent for the potion.
This message was last edited by the player at 18:27, Sun 27 Aug 2023.

Wasn't sure, my apologies. Consider it a RPOL side effect.

I'll update in character, see what I have pre-combat that can help aside from "chug a Gravespawn potion", because that is a damn good idea.

In efforts to try and align this; assume the only thread for now is the binders(who are busy), the mages are hostages and assumed on your side, and the warders will only attack if attacked.
The dragon is the element of chaos and worry as it may dive down at any point.
I can see why this encounter is daunting, confusing and I have taken notes to avoid such in the future.
For now if it aids, go ahead and I will make sure to adapt and refine the encounter to be enjoyable.

I have for refence made note of this encounter. Ideally, the dragon and perhaps a minion or two should be all to worry about, the rest made clear to be backdrops/scenery if that makes sense, as the scene is complex and overwhelming and while offering alot of freeedom it is not portraited well.

So as the game is slowing down quite a bit, I wonder if the encounter should be revisited and rewritten or if you are fine and have a plan to go along on. Regardless I urge something is done, and soon to not die out the interest we have in the game so to speak.

I have kid business to resolve today, then I should be cleared to think of something. It's daunting, but not a complex situation.

EDIT 09/03/23 0317: So, the dragon is likely to be the simplest part of this fight. They are hit, we activate The Thing, dragon starts going bye-bye, but is likely to make this rather complex because I'm betting they are going to fight this on the way out. The dragon is giving me a vibe akin to The Portal of Doom in the first part of the Orcus Unleashed series - while it has a statblock at upper Paragon and lower Epic, when you first encounter it, it is more of an environmental condition and a skill challenge.

In short, I do not believe we are supposed to fight the dragon at all, unless terrible things happen.

I think the idea is that we might be subject to a steady stream of enemy reinforcements until we can sufficiently mess up the ritual. And that is the tricky part of any Skill Challenge - knowing what we can do, because they tend to punish you for experimentation and guessing.

FURTHER EDIT 09/06/23 0425: I feel very dumb for forgetting to record that I had drank one of those lovely potions. I remembered to count the surge off, I forgot to record the effect.
This message was last edited by the player at 09:25, Wed 06 Sept 2023.

Since it's the obvious first target, F13 should be starting at 112/121, not 121/117.

Here's hoping that mousey stealth check keeps me hidden until my turn.

I wonder if you might not be served by actually Stealthing for a prolonged number of turns. Make no mistake, a Striker not striking does have the potential to make a longer battle. But if you suspect there is a hidden master, particularly if they are the load bearing type, then searching for the threat might be higher priority than simply killing the first or second line of enemies.

But it is hard - it's hard to do, because you are missing out on the awesome fighting, and it is a bit hard on the team. It's a calculated decision.

I'm not sure what I would do in your position. The last character I did that with was specifically designed from the ground up to single out one guy and pull a Jason Vorhees on them. I don't know if you are kitbashed for that kind of action.

I'm planning on popping out and going nova pretty quick. Just hoping my stealth can cover me for the one turn.

Still waiting on actions for the first three - anything wrong or that I can advise on?

Oh, no I'm just derping. I'll have a post up before midnight my time.

In reply to Storyteller (msg # 341):

Are our locations on the map up to date? Exactly which shade are we taking on first?

My location is. I don't know about anyone else's.

The wizard just to the east of us has been released but the shade is still there, and it's a good first target.

So, my plan is to use Moment of Escape to slide Grock four squares into the nearest enemy, and then attempt to use Impelling Force to drag an enemy within ten squares of me five squares into someone they do not want to be next to - ideally Khalid, secondly Grock due to his desire to attack two targets per turn, Nezumi as a third, and Rynoth as my final option. If our ally of choice is one square away from the edge, I want to slide our target off at that point.

Heads, he blows his save and goes into the drink, and I use my remaining slide trying to push them under the water like a bully giving a swirly in a bad 80's movie.
Tails, they pass their save and go prone... next to my ally.

If I have no such foes in range, then I want to Blunder the guy in front of us towards whoever has the best melee basic attack ready for usage. If our ally is one square away from the edge, I want to slide our target off at that point. See the coin flip above for my reasoning.

I know where I am supposed to be, I think, but I'm not quite equating the coordinates to where they are. Maybe I'm zoomed out, maybe I've somehow got the map sideways or something, but the guy recorded as F13 looks like they are on A13, there's another chap in the ranges of D12 to E13, there's this other cat looks like he's between C10 to C11.

I'm recorded at I16, but I seem to be at A16 to B16. This is what is throwing me off and stalling me.

That seems fine to me, although it won't be very helpful to put a shadow creature next to Rynoth; he has some close-quarters capability but it's not his strong point.

I have no problem teleporting to F13 and punching that shade in the face if that is okay with everyone.

That's fine. Keep their attention off of the mage that was just freed.

I know what I am failing to understand - those "B" units aren't units. They do not matter. They are simply designations of the terrain we are on.

The "S" units are the targets - Shadow Binders. I was wondering why there was nothing with a B in their name on the list of foes.

Look, I might sound dumb in this moment, but I see a tab on the board and my instinct is to interact with it, usually violently. I usually play the party meat shield/living ballistic missile. Jhaartael is out of my usual wheelhouse.

EDIT: I should have a post up before I go to sleep.
This message was last edited by the player at 02:24, Sun 17 Sept 2023.

What about me and Rynoth?

I forgot you! let me correct the order, as you are right, it is you now!

I'll let Nezumi take her turn first since she hasn't had one yet. Also, which of you has a strong basic attack?

My Unraveling Strike (+13vsAC; 2d4+7 phys, 7 cold, and inflict Vuln 3 to one damage type) is an MBA. Eldritch Bolt (+11vsRef; 1d10+7 Force and 7 Cold) is far less powerful but it's an RBA.

I have a basic attack. I should not be your first choice - I took it, just in case it would matter.

MBA for me is +13 attack 1d8+7 damage

I think I might pop my dailies next turn to buff my defenses more. Will have no use for a +1 power bonus to AC then since one of my dailies is a +2 power to AC and Fort while the other is a +2 shield to AC and Ref. A nice pile of THP is handy though, as is the +1 AC until my next turn. (Standard action daily gets bonus damage if target is vulnerable to cold so I had to go for the at-will first.)
This message was last edited by the player at 00:10, Fri 29 Sept 2023.

If the shadowbinder attacked the mage, Khalid can teleport adjacent and make a melee basic attack on it.