bigbadron
 moderator, 15609 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Fri 20 Jul 2018
at 22:08
Re: So Adult Games...
NowhereMan:
In reply to horus (msg # 36):

I haven't have direct issues with minors in adult games, either. I know that as GMs we are required to take action should we discover a minor in an Adult game, but if a player gets their Adult access revoked, are they automatically kicked from Adult games they're already in, or does it just prevent them from getting into new ones?
It doesn't automatically kick them out of existing games, but a revoked Adult access will prevent them posting in any Adult game (even ones where they are listed as a member).

If a player disappears from your Adult game for several days, it's probably worth checking CoLS to see if they've turned out to be a minor.

This message was last edited by the user at 22:11, Fri 20 July.

NowhereMan
 member, 240 posts
Fri 20 Jul 2018
at 22:12
Re: So Adult Games...
Noted. Thanks, Ron!
prophacyks
 member, 299 posts
Fri 20 Jul 2018
at 22:23
Re: So Adult Games...
And technically as a GM, you should be checking the CoLS anytime it lights up so you are aware of who to watch out for or remove.
swordchucks
 member, 1506 posts
Fri 20 Jul 2018
at 22:34
Re: So Adult Games...
bigbadron:
It doesn't automatically kick them out of existing games, but a revoked Adult access will prevent them posting in any Adult game (even ones where they are listed as a member).

Is there a pressing reason for that?  Because it seemed like a pretty big gap in the system. At the least, some sort of direct notice to folks running the games would seem useful.
facemaker329
 member, 7035 posts
 Gaming for over 30
 years, and counting!
Sat 21 Jul 2018
at 04:44
Re: So Adult Games...
I've been in a few adult games.  Some had sexual content, some didn't.  But complaining that RPOL might turn people off because a lot of games have Adult tags on them is kinda like claiming people will stop going to the megaplex because half the movies are R rated.  It's also a flawed argument to say that the majority of games are tagged Adult...as you explained it, that was based off of looking at the first couple of pages in the Wanted:Players forum, yes?

On any given day, the first two pages there represent a very slim fraction of the total games on RPOL.  It doesn't even give an accurate cross-section of what kinds of games are on RPOL, because one day, you may look and it would appear everything is D&D or Pathfinder.  On another day, the majority may be sci-fi, or horror.  And depending on the day, there may be enough games posting ads to fill the first two or three pages of the forum, just that day alone.  Games are allowed to advertise there a maximum of once every seven days...you have to go a LOT of pages in to get to seven-day-old ads (or did the last time I checked it...it's been a long time, personally.)

Even then, shunning a game because it has an Adult tag is like refusing to see a movie because it's got an R rating.  Saving Private Ryan, Schindler's List, Hacksaw Ridge, Predator, Aliens, and a long list of other movies have very strong R ratings...and no sexual content to speak of (that I recall, anyway)...some don't even have so much as a good, passionate kiss.  There are a lot of award-winning movies that have R-ratings...are they seedy because their intended audience is over 17?  The megaplex metaphor still applies...if it's something you don't want to see, nobody's forcing you to buy a ticket.  There's obviously an audience for it, and the site is here to provide a place for that audience to get their fill.  Doesn't mean they're all starving for smut...but in the same way that some directors want the freedom to be able to show graphic imagery (some want it because it is the only way to really tell the story...others want it because they just enjoy it), some GMs want to be as free as possible to tell their story (and to let their players participate in it equally freely).  If it's not your thing, great...don't do it.  The three games I'm currently active in are all either General or Mature...personally, I don't care what the rating of the game is, I'm interested in whether or not the story is one that appeals to me.  The Adult games I've been in, I didn't join because they were Adult...I joined for the story.  They could have been General or Mature, instead of Adult, and I still would have joined the game.  The games I'm in now could have been Adult, and I still would have joined them.  I sort my games like I sort my movies...What's it about?  Is it well-written/an engaging or intriguing plot? etc etc etc.  Somewhere about fifteen steps down that list is, "What is it rated?"  And the only reason that's on the list at all is to justify the follow-up question, "Why does it have that rating?"
tmagann
 member, 541 posts
Sat 21 Jul 2018
at 05:03
Re: So Adult Games...
In reply to facemaker329 (msg # 43):

Actually, R is covered by Mature. Adult is X.

And, yes, I avoid movies that get a X for violence alone. No sex. Or I did when that sort of X movie was still made, anyhow.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15610 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 21 Jul 2018
at 05:11
Re: So Adult Games...
In reply to swordchucks (msg # 42):

Time.  Some users have thirty or forty (or a hundred) Adult games on their Sticky List.  Some they have joined, some they thought the title was cool, and some they haven't applied to yet but are thinking about a character...

We don't have time to check through all of those games, work out which of them the player had actually joined, then notify the GMs.

So we provide two methods for the GM to keep an eye on his own players - one is the CoLS, and the other is the check players list that appears in the GM Menu of every Adult game (which automatically tells a GM if his existing players have Adult access or not).
swordchucks
 member, 1507 posts
Sat 21 Jul 2018
at 05:38
Re: So Adult Games...
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 45):

Now, I rarely do anything with adult games, so that might account for why I've not run across it... but how does the average GM know about this tool and this obligation?

Personally, I had assumed that players that had their adult access revoked were programmatically blocked from viewing content.  I really doubt I'm the only one to make that assumption.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15611 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sat 21 Jul 2018
at 06:15
Re: So Adult Games...
swordchucks:
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 45):

Now, I rarely do anything with adult games, so that might account for why I've not run across it... but how does the average GM know about this tool and this obligation?

Personally, I had assumed that players that had their adult access revoked were programmatically blocked from viewing content.  I really doubt I'm the only one to make that assumption.
What obligation?

And your assumption is correct.  As I said above (msg #39), players without Adult access are blocked from any Adult games.  They are still counted as members of any game they had joined (at least until the GM reassigns their characters), but they can't actually do anything in those games.
baxtheslayer
 member, 21 posts
Sat 21 Jul 2018
at 20:29
Re: So Adult Games...
I'm actually going to start running only Adult rated games, for the aforementioned reason that I don't want to get myself in trouble.

My IRL group frequently delves into Adult territory, whether as part of the story or simply jokes and side-chatter that occur based on the situation the players find themselves in.  Some of it sex related, some of it violence, some of it gore.

I particularly enjoy providing gross-out descriptions of hideous monsters in an effort to disgust my players so that they are happy to be rid of the creature.

I originally assumed that I could get by with an Mature rating, but quickly found myself in conversations that were bordering on Adult.  I don't want to have to constantly police my posts and stress over whether or not something crosses the line.  I also don't want to be limited in what I post or what happens in the story.

I've seen other people call this reasoning a 'cop-out' but I consider it a valid reason to apply the Adult tag.  I'm an Adult.  I talk about Adult things.
Brianna
 member, 2155 posts
Sun 22 Jul 2018
at 03:39
Re: So Adult Games...
I have always wondered how many underage players are here, playing in Adult games, but smart enough to be consistent in their age statements and not to give it away in their posts, especially OOC, and mature enough in their posting, not to get caught.  I think of someone I played with on another site who was only 14 when we met.  The game we were in had some pretty mature topics, and I had to keep reminding myself of his age (not because he cared or was upset, but because there were things I didn't feel comfortable playing out with him, even though they weren't things that would be against the Adult rules here) because his posts were consistently mature and detailed beyond what the average young teenager could do.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15613 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Sun 22 Jul 2018
at 06:16
Re: So Adult Games...
Yeah, we sometimes wonder that too, which is why we spend so much of our "free" time making sure that it isn't happening that often.

And, of course, there is a big risk involved.  Say you are 17, and we find that you've been playing in Adult games for a few years (maybe lying about your age since you were 14)... we would remove your Adult access.  We would also not be compelled to restore it on the date which you claim is your 18th birthday (after all, you now have a well established reputation for lying about your age).

So... consider that a great many Adult GMs say they're not running Adult games for the sexual content, but so that their players are free to express themselves using Adult language... is it REALLY worth risking your future Adult access when you're 14, just so you can drop the occasional F-bomb in a post?

This message was last edited by the user at 06:42, Sun 22 July.

NowhereMan
 member, 243 posts
Sun 22 Jul 2018
at 07:10
Re: So Adult Games...
I think for most 14-year-olds, it's probably more about "playing with the Big Kids" than it is a matter of what Adult access really allows you to do in a game. The natural evolution of the five-year-old chasing after the older kids on his Big Wheel.
prophacyks
 member, 300 posts
Sun 22 Jul 2018
at 17:08
Re: So Adult Games...
NowhereMan:
I think for most 14-year-olds, it's probably more about "playing with the Big Kids" than it is a matter of what Adult access really allows you to do in a game. The natural evolution of the five-year-old chasing after the older kids on his Big Wheel.


Not really, by 14 even before it more and more are thinking about adult stuff if not trying it. Things have changed since I was 14, and I am shocked to see what teens are doing now a days. But really most kids thinking like that are going to be the ones who get caught the easiest. As they are not thinking on a more mature level, just the base level of what they want. It is the ones who are thinking on the more mature level, thinking deeper into things is where it gets tricky. I would think though that we run more into the non-mature then the mature ones now a days. As really to trick everyone for that long, there has to be some common sense in play. And from what I have seen with kids, over many years now. Common sense is in short supply anymore. Of course in that thinking, there are people over 18 now that sometimes you have to wonder if they are really that age as they act very immaturely. Which for me, I know I have had to report to get their Adult status revoked in the past, because they really mentally didn't belong in that kind of game. They just didn't have a clue what it is like to adult yet.

The thing is with RPOL, is unlike most places with adult content. There are a lot of people watching. Not just the Mods, but GM's, and players. We all know we want this to be a good place, and in turn if we see something wrong we will not just ignore it. As a GM if we did we could get in trouble for it. RPOL also has a higher level of security then most places. While they like any other site, take it on honor system you have to jump through hoops to do it. Plus worry about getting found out. Porn sites don't even have that kind of security, and they are the ones that could get into the most trouble. That is why I keep coming back here, other then going to other adult RPing websites. It is just all around a lot better here.
Brianna
 member, 2156 posts
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 00:44
Re: So Adult Games...
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 50):

But what if you didn't find out until they were several years of age?  And if they were careful, and smart, enough to play undetected from 14 to plus 18, they would probably not get caught unless they finally wanted to use their correct date of birth.  They aren't likely to be the type to go for bragging about what they got away with.
Shannara
 moderator, 3789 posts
 Keep calm, drink more
 COFFEE!!!!
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 02:05
Re: So Adult Games...
Brianna:
In reply to bigbadron (msg # 50):

But what if you didn't find out until they were several years of age?  And if they were careful, and smart, enough to play undetected from 14 to plus 18, they would probably not get caught unless they finally wanted to use their correct date of birth.  They aren't likely to be the type to go for bragging about what they got away with.



Know that we did the best we could with the tools we have, and not lose any sleep over it.

That's what I'd do ... along with casting a vote for a permanent site ban.

Others' mileage may vary.

This message was last edited by the user at 02:06, Mon 23 July.

bigbadron
 moderator, 15615 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 04:45
Re: So Adult Games...
In reply to Brianna (msg # 53):

I think Shannara about covered it.
icosahedron152
 member, 879 posts
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 06:34
Re: So Adult Games...
I can see Fleahop’s point that having so many games tagged as Adult gives a bad impression of the site. Regardless of what is actually contained in the games, or what rationale led the GM to choose that rating, all a visitor to the site can see is ADULT, ADULT, ADULT, all down the page, and everyone knows what ‘Adult material’ means, don’t they? (nudge nudge, wink wink).

That perception may be mistaken in our context, but it is the common perception nevertheless - particularly to a newcomer who is not familiar with our usage of the term, and I can see how it may turn away potential members.

If your multiplex cinema gets a reputation for showing mainly X rated movies, and being frequented by a bunch of old men in raincoats, you might not be comfortable going there, or allowing your kids to go there, even when it advertises a Disney. Having too many Adult-rated games can threaten our family-friendly reputation.

I think the site would benefit if, instead of hiding behind a label, GMs took responsibility for the content of their games. If you want a game that has no graphic sexual content, just a smattering of language, and limited gore, then make your game Mature, and enforce its content. Don’t make it Adult ‘just in case somebody does something I don’t want them to do’.

If you rate your game Adult, you’re sending a message to players that Adult content is OK, and of course they’re going to push it. The argument of ‘see, that post would have got me moderated if I’d labelled this game Mature’ doesn’t hold water. And in any case, there are things that players can post, even in an Adult game, that can get you moderated, so you’re still not safe, even hiding behind the Adult tag. (You’re also making the tacit assumption that the moderators are incapable of discerning who’s at fault).

I’ve been playing on this site for over seven years, I’ve never run an Adult game, and I’ve never had someone post something that was inappropriate for the level of game I was running. Either I’ve had a run of very mature-minded players (despite not banning minors) or the folks who run Adult games ‘just in case’ are plain paranoid. If any ‘incident’ did occur, I would deal with it, and if it got reported to the moderators before I’d dealt with it, I have every confidence that they would support me in dealing with it, rather than going overboard and beating me up for it.

If you want to post explicit sexual or criminal activity, make an Adult game. If you want to post sickening gore or potty-mouthed language, make an Adult game. If you want none of those things, make your game Mature, or even General, and help to clean up the perception of Rpol to potential members.

As a linked topic, I’m very much opposed to the blatant ageism displayed, promoted, and even revelled in, by a number of Rpol GMs. I’m likewise opposed to the abuse of the Adult label to support and promote that ageism. That, in itself, is something that visitors may find offensive. It’s another aspect of Rpol’s public image that we may want to examine.

Over-18s do not have a monopoly on reliability or good behaviour.
Yes, teenagers have school or college responsibilities - and adults have work responsibilities.
Yes, teenagers have parents making demands of them - and adults have husbands, wives and children making demands of them (and parents too).
Yes, teenagers can be fickle - so can adults.
Yes, teenagers can get stroppy - so can adults.
Yes, teenagers can find it difficult to string three words together - so can adults.

By all means remove people from your game who harm it with their lifestyle, behaviour or capability, but there is absolutely no rational reason for GMs to discriminate on the grounds of age. That’s just bigotry. It’s not what the Adult label is for - or it shouldn’t be, IMO.

How is ‘I don’t want kids in my game’ different from ‘I don’t want women in my game’, or ‘I don’t want Quinces in my game’, or ‘I don’t want Nectarines in my game?’ Surely the Adult label is there to protect innocents, not to enforce GMs’ prejudices.

Sensible teenage players have enough problems finding a decent game here as it is, with the restrictions imposed on them from the outdatedly prudish international censorship system (which, of course, is beyond the remit of our moderators to relax) without making things more difficult for them by prejudicially banning them from games they ought to be able to participate in.

Just my 2 coins.
gladiusdei
 member, 712 posts
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 06:42
Re: So Adult Games...
I'm sorry, it's a huge difference.  Not wanting to expose minors to certain more mature ideas or have to try to handle minor players, is not the same at all as discriminating AGAINST someone because of their skin or gender.  I love my son more than anything in the world, but I wouldn't expose him to a whole lot of stuff that's out there.  That doesn't mean I hate him, or think less of him, in any way.  In fact, I think so much of him that I want to protect him from things I think could harm him, or that he can't yet handle without it bothering him deeply.

choosing not to include someone, or thinking it is better they not be a part of something, is not always driven by hate or dislike.

This message was last edited by the user at 06:44, Mon 23 July.

icosahedron152
 member, 880 posts
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 07:00
Re: So Adult Games...
Sorry, gladiusdei, you seem to have misunderstood my post. I probably didn't make myself clear enough. Of course you should exclude minors from games that contain explicit adult material, that's a proper use of the system.

What I'm objecting to is GMs who run games that do not contain such material, yet give them an adult label specifically to exclude teenagers, because they believe that teenagers cannot play a sensible game. Or, they deliberately include one or two adult scenes in their game specifically to justify banning minors from the game.

This message was last edited by the user at 07:04, Mon 23 July.

gladiusdei
 member, 713 posts
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 07:07
Re: So Adult Games...
While I guess it could be a negative if they are somehow out to get rid of teenagers, I think most people here are saying that they prefer to play games with older, more mature players, and making the game adult makes that more likely.  Yes, there are immature adults.  Yes, there are mature teenagers.  But by making a game adult, it makes it MORE likely you'll end up with players that are mature.

Ultimately, though, you're really arguing that all people on RPOL shouldn't be jerks.  "Ageism" as you described it in the frame of RPOL is really just being a jerk.  Unfortunately, life is full of jerks, and you just have to learn to deal with them.  You'll never create enough rules to get rid of them all.
facemaker329
 member, 7036 posts
 Gaming for over 30
 years, and counting!
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 07:17
Re: So Adult Games...
Here's a novel idea...if you're concerned that there are so many Adult games that it's negatively impacting site membership (last I heard, that wasn't any sort of problem, but whatever), how about you start some games that aren't Adult and provide alternatives, as opposed to trying to lay some kind of guilt trip on those who are currently running/participating in Adult games?  The problem is just as much a dearth of General and Mature games as it is proliferation of Adult games...at least, among games that are currently advertising.  There's no shortage of General and Mature games...just those that are advertising.  If you feel like the site is too Adult-oriented, sway the balance.  If you're worried that excessive Adult content will scare your friends away, give them a non-Adult game to join.  Plenty of RPOL users have joined to participate in a specific game and then expanded beyond that.

If they've got a game waiting for them when they join, they shouldn't need to look and see just how many Adult games are out there.
icosahedron152
 member, 881 posts
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 07:32
Re: So Adult Games...
Well, I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there. I don't believe that older people are more 'mature' even on averages, nor that by excluding teenagers you are 'more likely' to get a more capable player base. In fact, in my experience, younger people are more likely to change awkward behaviour than adults, because it is less entrenched.
But yes, we need to avoid jerks. :)

I'm all in favour of running more Mature games. I'm currently running as many as I can handle. I'm simply arguing that if we can reduce the number of unnecessarily labelled Adult games, by convincing some GMs that the moderators are not ogres and that teenagers are not gremlins, that will also sway the balance.
bigbadron
 moderator, 15616 posts
 He's big, he's bad,
 but mostly he's Ron.
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 07:38
Re: So Adult Games...
GM's are free to choose any rating they feel comfortable with, as long as the content of their game does not violate the site's rules regarding their chosen rating.  Their game, their choice.  RPoL's policy is that a GM is free to run their game how they choose, as long as they comply with our rules.

The reasoning behind their choices is, quite frankly, nobody's business but their own.  If a GM decides to run a MLP game, then decides to make it Adult simply because the ponies are all naked, 24/7, then that's his choice.

Having an Adult rating on a game, for ANY reason (or for no reason at all) is entirely up to the GM - if they want to limit their target audience, that's their business.

Just like saying "no psionics", or "no drow", or "no gestalt".  It potentially limits their audience, but its their choice.

IMO, people need to stop worrying about other GM's games, and focus on their own.

This message was last edited by the user at 07:42, Mon 23 July.

icosahedron152
 member, 882 posts
Mon 23 Jul 2018
at 07:43
Re: So Adult Games...

This message was deleted by a moderator, as it was against the ToU, at 07:45, Mon 23 July.