I try to keep things, even, fair, and fun.  I want to stick with the rules as is as much as possible until they get in the way of fun.  I have no problem changing or modifying on the fly.  If somthing doesn't work, I'll change it.  Input is welcome, but don't think that means I'll agree on everything.

Magic is generally a weak point in Rifts.  You run out of ammo faster, and the good stuff takes too many actions to be really useful.  Unless otherwise noted, general combat magic takes one action to cast regardless of level.

When dodging, you may fire wild for your lost 'attack.'  Why?  You're a damn action hero, that's why.

1.  I roll initiatives and set the order to save time.

2.  You may post out of order, and I will resolve your action when it comes up.

3.  Indicate in your posts which defenses you will use if needed.  I will roll them rather than have everyone wait for you to post again.  Alternately, you may roll ahead of time and I will use those rolls when needed.  This could include saving throws.

The following is fluid and may change.  It is open to discussion.

The biggest debate seems to be the disparity between MD and SD.  I, like many, have a love/hate relationship with it.  Siembieda takes a rather naive stance in my opinion.  It's basically summed up with "but why would they use a MD weapon against SD opponents?"  Because they are players, Kevin!  Sure, we all grab a dagger or two to go along with our longsword, but who the heck is actually using it?  Or the little .38 snubnose and a frickin' .44.  "But MiB, you never know when you need to cut your steak!"  Yeah, yeah.  Lot's of RP reasons for a dagger, but you never look at the kobold and say, "my +5 longsword of disembowling and skullsplosions is overkill.  I'm using my dagger!"  It doesn't matter if that kobold has 1 hp.  You're disembowling the little fucker!  Right?

(Yes, I like to exaggerate for comedic effect.)

In general: enchanted weaponry does SD to SD targets.  AR is useless!  I have thought that energy weapons (like lasers, not plasma!) would do the same.  It can easily be argued both ways.  A split second laser beam will go through you, but basically seal the hole.  A bullet creates a shockwave and bounces around.  Both will certainly make you wish you were dead but not neccessarily make you so.  AP rounds do less damage than regular rounds for much the same reason.  You know, without the cauterizing effect.  Yes, I know it's just a game...  But the laser makes 'em 'splode real good!  Sure we can go that way too.  The point I want to make is why on earth are you going to keep pumping shotgun rounds into an ogre making sexual advances towards you when you can off him with a single laser shot?  For now I'm leaving EW up to your discretion.

Someone brought up just changing MD to x10 rather than x100.  I've considered it before, and I'm starting to think this is the easiest way to go.  Thoughts?

Then you have to deal with AR and assign things formerly made of MD with an AR rating.

In reply to Man in Black (msg # 3):

If that is the case, would physical strength damage bonus add into MDC weapons?

Why not keep the RAW?

Seems like everything has MDC anyway, especially in later books. Anything SDC-only isn't much of a threat, both from the perspective of it can't take a hit and from the perspective that it's probably not that aggressive anyway. If you really want to threaten us with something that would be SDC by RAW, well, this is Rifts - it could have been magically enhanced or actually a d-bee version or any of a dozen other explanations to make it MD.

House-ruling is a slippery slope with Palladium. IMO, the MDC system is actually the least holey of the various wacky mechanics. If you want to get to a sane rule system, we should probably go to Savage Rifts (Savage Worlds).

In reply to player 6 (msg # 6):

Oh yeah, savage rifts is awesome! I was part of the Kickstarter but never got to play it.

Just remember, firing off a Wilks laser pistol in a bar fight is going to have unintended consequences. You miss and you vaporize a hole through how many walls, buildings, people? You hit and if you roll 2MD, the guy most likely dies, and anything higher than that, and the guy behind him dies...and maybe the waitress behind that. Either way, your 86'd from that town and will have a bad reputation in that area for a long time.

I happen to like the system as slightly modified (actions/dodge rules) and I have been playing it for 25 years. Should mages use energy rifles instead of direct damage offensive spells, probably, but then magic is so much more useful than just being able to damage things.

I'm inclined to go with the RAW, myself.  I mean, we've all got MD weapons and armor anyway, and I can patch up people who take a MD hit a little under half the time, so you aren't automatically goo.

The change in relationship between MD and SDC from 100 to 10 does nothing else, it would not influence AR or SDC weapons ability to damage MDC structures (like non supernatural strength bonus), all it does is fix the above mentioned over penetration problem of the tiny laser pen light in your pocket.  Instead of carving through half a building with 400 SDC you only cut off a guy's arm with 40.

Just about the only side effect of this is to make Titan Juicers and Minotaurs minor MDC creatures by default, but one of those is in a book we aren't using and the other can go ahead and be a real monster anyways.

I have a tabletop GM who runs Rifts as SDC only.  Using the MDC system, though, gives it that anime feel.  Like the weapons in the Robotech/Macross movies, Bubblegum Crisis, and others.

I definitely think that it works better here than it does in other gamelines-- MDC just does not work well in Macross, or ported over into Heroes Unlimited.

Maybe I am not understanding what is being proposed.

If what is being proposed is that MD weapons do the MD*10 as SDC to SDC things, instead of 100, that is fine with me. SDC things just don't have the resistance or density to take the 'whole' amount of damage.

If what is being proposed is that all MDC and MD is being multiplied by 10 and the entire universe is moving to SDC only, I am not in favor of that. I like the idea that Bob the farmer with his ancient slug thrower can't do anything to that shiny (or not so shiny) mecha, tank, etc. I like the idea that there is a threshold that has to be reached in order to be effective against some things. Bob the farmer with the ancient slug thrower should not be able to do anything against a battleship except scratch the pain and add some lead smears to it.

Everything is the same except MD weapons only do a tenth of the damage to SDC targets.  That slug thrower is still useless.  MD weapons still do the same damage to MD targets.

Just a side note - are we using the perception system from Nightbane?

Edit: Ahh, clarification on the language below. Thanks.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:54, Wed 02 Aug 2017.

SDC weapons don't do any damage to MD targets, not 1/100th, not 1/10th, it just doesn't work that direction.

The MD weapons do a tenth of the (normally expected x100) damage to SDC targets results in MDx10 = SDC.

I'd like to play Devil's Advocate for a moment and point out that this variation on MDC can make Golden Age Retrofits and Chipwell's deathtraps surprisingly resilient, increasing the damage they can take effectively tenfold.

Beyond that, no real issues I can detect.

Why? Is there a reason for such a change other than making Juicers into MDC creatures?

In reply to player 2 (msg # 17):

That is my understanding of the rules too.  My old group played it that way too.   I believe in one of the Rifts books they printed what was supposed to be a historical story of a dozen guys in full strength Glitter Boy power armor (shortly after they were invented) that absolutely devastated a modern army including tanks and such (which were all SDC armored and using SD weapons).  If I recall correctly they only lost 1 of the GB's in the assault too.  That certainty lends credibility to MDC armor being immune to SD weapons in my book.

In reply to Bak'ad (msg # 20):

That's not the way the rules were written.

On page 11 in the original book is says that 100 sdc is 1 md and 1 md is 100 sdc

And I just checked RUE. P. 288. The rules are pretty clear. 100 sdc is 1 md
This message was last edited by the player at 07:37, Thu 03 Aug 2017.

Why?  Because I want SD combat to be viable.  Multiplying damage x10 is still a massive amount of damage to a typical critter.  Sure, a juice could withstand a another blast or two from a Wilk's sissy pistol, but ask our Ley Line Walkers and Mind Melters in the crowd if they would like to take a shot.  Keep in mind that I use the optional damage tables when someone loses a goog chunk of their SDC and/or HP.  Someone takes a shot with an energy pistol loses 3/4 of his SDC is still going to be significantly hampered, but it is better than being atomized.  If this rule really offends a good chunk of the party, I'll ditch it.  You're not ruining the game nor breaking my spirit.

Some common sense rulings go along with the 100 SDC = 1 MD rule.  My titan can pick up Louisville Slugger and do over 100 points on PS bonus alone, but the bat will shatter before it scratches power armor.  If unload a whole magazine of 9mm from my SMG and roll 101 SDC, there is still no way it's damaging that armor.  Now if I launch a sabot rocket and hit with over 100 SDC, there's going to be a small scratch.

The switch to 1 MD = 10 is a one way trip.  A fairy dual wielding ak-47's on full auto is not going to take down your power armor.  I guarantee you.

Let's look at it this way: armor piercing rounds go through kevlar with ease.  A regular round won't pierce.  The AP round will pierce you, but most of the energy blows right through.  A regular round will mess up your weekend.

Yes, I know Palladium and reality parted ways a long time ago, but just feel this makes it less balls-out crazy.

Again, you guys rejecting this rule will not make me go home and beat my wife or my kids.  I will not have to make a pilgrimage to meditate with monks.  Heck, if we try it and it pretty much stinks, we can change things back.  I won't even have to up my blood pressure medication.

If what you are saying here is: 1 MD = 10 SDC and 100 SDC = 1 MD then you have converted me into a true believer :)

Ah. Experimentation, then! Very well. I shall serve as a loyal guinea pig, as long as it means I get to adventure in this insane setting.

To be honest, I'm a RAW guy...usually. I don't mind the Mage buff, despite me not being one myself, as I can see why you would do that.

I like to be a RAW guy, too.  I don't change things on a whim, at least.  I give it a lot of thought before I make a decision.  That's why my wife hates going to restaurants with big menus with me.

The Rules as written for using a very limited selection of SDC weapons to be able to technically do very small amounts of MDC are specific to a fairly narrow range of options.  Weapons that list their roll in SDCx100 are assumed to actually be doing roll in MDCx1 and energy weapons that inflict over 100 SDC are entitled to a single MD point of damage per fully 100 SDC, other than that the spray of bullets, or super strong guy with a butter knife do not in fact convert from SDC to MDC at all.

While even this small subset of items (even including golden age) do create questions that make the rule look problematic or cumbersome a GB (or Chromium Guardsmen of the era) group fighting against SDC tanks is still putting out 3d6x100 SDC per shot, or an average of 1050 damage vs tanks with 500-900 or so SDC on them, the change in the damage multiplier really just does not matter on that scale.

In the odd case where it seems like the quick fix version of the rule is not getting the job done it is perfectly reasonable to simply split the difference and use an x50 multiplier for that situation instead of either the x10 or x100.  I however doubt that will ever come up without someone going well out of their way to need it, particularly in a game in which Minotaur Titan Juicers are not allowed.

The change does not change MDC into SDC. It just changes the 1MD of damage to and SDC object does 100SD down to 10SD.

10SD /= 1MD

My friend who ran the SDC Rifts campaign did it on a 1 SDC:1 MDC ratio, which made the high technology weapons on par with the slug throwers.  However, he wanted explosives, like grenades and missiles, to be something to be feared.  So, he multiplied those by 100.
We had a Juicer who would always have his armor whittled down to scraps, but once he was butt naked, his dice wouldn't let let. You touch him.  I had a Crazy who used a full load of NG-Superlaser grenades ( internal and box mag) to being down the cwiling of the old subway onto a trio of CS piloted Ulti-Maxes.  Took out six of them, though.  He didn't know about the other three getting ready to drop into the fray from the level above.

I was thinking about this conversation, peacefully resting though it is, and I decided to perform some pseudo-necromancy on it.

I think the idea is to actually get some mileage out of SDC in this game, and make battle a bit less binary - either you have MDC armor/defenses and you live, or you don't and the next hit kills you.

Instead of reducing MDC when it hits an SDC target, I have an alternative: blowthrough damage, or chip damage.

The principal behind this is simple - the armor saves your life, but you still just got hit with an anti-tank missile. That's gonna hurt, armor or not. So, we have some of the damage go through as SDC, either on a point for point basis (which my brain says is a mistake) or at reduced value, somewhere between 10% to 20%.

Example - 30 MDC mini-missile. Take anywhere from 3 to 6 SDC damage, and you are probably thrown through the air like a ragdoll, which probably won't deal extra damage...unless intense bludgeoning forces like gravity are critical weak spots in MDC armor defenses, which could create a whole new style of combat in its own right, one more akin to streetfighting than honorable combat.

Armor-piercing might actually do extra (double?) damage to the wearer, because it is designed to mess up armor.

This is only for worn or powered armor, sadly, but it could probably be adapted for vehicles. Just...a bit of caution here. This could either be meaningless (in which case it is extra bookkeeping that wastes time), or it could render the armor worthless less meaningful, as being KOed is still better than being killed.

This does also create the possibility of a mob grabbing you and just beating you to death by hitting you against objects. The armor? It's fine, not a scratch - the wearer, on the other hand...

I think we're on the same train, you and I.  I do want to get some milage out of the SDC side.
 It's either you have MDC or you lose.

There are rules for taking damage in armor for things like explosions.  I plan on using them when the situation warrants.  I don't want to get too detailed in it since this is primarily an action game.

I recommend using the table for the Knockback Attack power in the Powers Unlimited book for explosions and getting hit by railguns.  Or a version of it.  Very cinematic, and somewhat realistic.

Which version of the printed rules are we using for determining Supernatural/Robotic strength as it is applied to melee weapons? I've read through the posts I can see and didn't find if this had already been answered.

Are we going with Supernatural/Robotic strength levels, those that can cause MD with their fists, add their base punch damage when using a melee weapon, to the melee weapon's damage?

Or are we going with the use whichever is greater?

If the GM is taking a vote, I'd vote for the former as the later makes no sense. The reason why is simple; if you have a Supernatural or Robotic strength of X, which allows you to do say, 4D6 MD with a punch, why would you ever pick up a vibro-knife or TW sword that does 3D6 MD? You would only ever use your fists/feet, etc in a fight and never bother with a weapon.

If on the other we go with the original rules, then it makes sense for Supernatural/Robotic strength characters to actually own (and care about owning) and use a weapon. Keeping the above stats, the sword wielder would then do 7D6 MD.

In reply to Kahlvyn Hahlynd (msg # 32):

Granted, but I actually have a retractable  vibro blade because I don't want to parry other mdc stuff with my limbs. Also some of my HTH mdc melee options do more damage than my raw strength.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:13, Wed 09 Aug 2017.

The RUE has a clear ruling that for MD, it is Base Strength Damage OR the Weapon's Base Damage, whichever is greater.

In this system, it doesn't matter if you hit something with a blunt object (fist) or a bladed weapon when it comes down to how much damage does it do. In the Whitewolf system it does matter and the difference is that you have to do a whole heck of a lot more bashing (fist) damage before somebody is about die than lethal damage (Sword, gun, enery weapon). Short of Phase Weapons (and some magical effects/weapons) there is no piercing MDC armor/materials/shields. There is for SDC armor/shields/etc which is covered by AR. Defeating AR by having bonuses to Strike which WP Sword (etc) gives your character over the base HtH skills.

While the game doesn't provide for 'reach' most GM's add in some kind of benefit and penalties for wielding pole arms, generally I give an Initiative bonus vs other melee wielders. Characters using fists against somebody with a Pike/Halberd, out in the open, automatically lose initiative.

Shields generally take damage when they are used to parry a blow, even though weapons don't, which is weird, but this is Palladium. Thus, if the character is parrying with their arm, then the arm takes damage, just usually not the full amount. Having a weapon somehow magically allows for no damage to be taken against anything. This also bothered me in that you could technically use a SDC sword to parry a MD vibro-blade.....and the other guy had to intentionally target the SDC sword to damage it.

So, no damage parries, reach, potentially better damage because there is no real armor piercing against MDC structures.

I know, that's why I am asking which set of the rules the GM is using when it comes to this particular issue; the RUE or the original.

I'm pretty much all in on the RUE unless I see something particularly stupid.

So does this fall under stupid?

While I understand the sentiment, given the system we more or less agreed to be bound by when we joined the game, I doubt it.

I could suggest an incentive to use the Pull Punch/Attack rules, given that no one in their right mind would ever do that in a life or death fight without reason: instead of cutting the damage in half for no reason at all, instead simply have the damage be non-fatal. This would turn Pulling an Attack into what it was intended to be.

Ok, how about stupider than stupid?  :p

I still don't see anyone pulling their punches.  Since the only way of subduing someone is through pinning or beating the piss out of them, what's the point?  To be honest, I don't see the need to push for people to use it.

Because last I checked, reducing someone's HP to zero by any means puts them in a coma. This simply provides an alternative. If it is pointless, however, due to a detail I have overlooked, I will push no further.

Alright so if I understand you GM, you are going with the RUE on MD melee combat.

There are a few ways to subdue, or otherwise contain harmlessly, most people in the Rifts world other than flat out damage or physical wrestling.  Most of those however are limited in either spell/psi duration or very difficult to make portable.

This little guy will be pulling his punches ALOT.

Don't get too wrapped up in the rules or what could be or has been problems in other games.  I'm not new to Palladium, though I'm certain many of you are more savvy than me on Rifts, nor am I new to being a GM.  I've run way more games than I've ever played.  My focus is on the story, not the rules.  I do like to make the rules fit the story, but I don't go changing things until I see a problem.  Most problems, in my experience, has been players taking advantage of weak rules to be superior to everyone else.  If I see a need to fix a rule, I will be sure to tell you the rule, the change, and my thoughts on why.  I ilke putting characters into interesting situations to see how they react.  I don't go looking for ways to kill characters unless someone is really asking for it.  The only guy I remember killing highlighted himself to a bunch of vampire sorcerers in what was essentially a stealth mission.  But, he wanted to be the hero and try to take on a vampire army with a 2nd level psion.  An army, by the way, that all but wiped out Faerun.

Just a quick question regards combat posts: Do you want us to post per attack or per melee round?

Per attack.  Going through that many actions at once would take all night.  It also takes away from any sense of being a tactical combat.

If someone moves into melee with a bunch of people holding rifles, can I still use parry given they are trying to use ranged weapons at PB range? Trying to figure out my first move here...
This message was last updated by the player at 12:45, Wed 16 Aug 2017.

I'm not the official authority on this, but that sounds completely reasonable. Gives ranged combatants a reason to keep combat ranged: to stop their guns from turning into glorified invisible, retractable spears, which is what point-blank shooting can be compared to.

It will also bring pistol whips and rifle butt-strokes and barrel-jabs into play.  Say 1d6 with the pistol, 2d4 with the butt of the rifle and 1d6 with the barrel.

Since it matter shortly, which version of the Dodge energy weapons rules are you using? And related to that, which rules for parrying energy blasts?

So if you're moving into melee range of a rifleman, it depends on the distance involved.  I know from my police training that a knife wielding guy at about 15 ft will smurf your smurf up before you can fully draw your pistol.  Now if the gunman has his pistol up and ready, well, Sean Connery was correct.  Since Rod moves really, really, really, really fast, I think his distance is a little greater.  Now I'm trying to do physics calculations at 3 in the morning with only a single cup of coffee in me...  Attacks and movement is a bitch in Palladium.  So if Hot Rod is the example, he acts every 2 seconds.  Spd 135 x 5 = 675 yards/rnd 675/7= 96 yards per action.  So yeah, you can pretty much reach in one action, but 2 seconds is a lot of time to a prepared rifleman.  I'm fairly confident that back when I was a young Marine in my prime, I could easily get off 6 rounds in the two seconds it would take for a cyborg to reach me and kill me anyway.

Now what does all this word vomit mean?  If you have close enough range and the initiative, you can knock that gun away.  If it's a rifle.  It takes a fraction of a second to pull a trigger.  Unless you do a ready action, you can't knock that rifle away fast enough.  The upside is you've taken away an attack.  Of course it cost you an attack, too.  I guess that could also be a simultaneous attack...  Anywho, any normal combatant is going to have to retreat or go hand-to-hand when someone knocks their rifle away.  It's just not a close quarters weapon.

So if you charge from a distance, you lose initiative and take a shot.  Otherwise you can simultaneous attack to hit the rifle out of the way.  Or ready a parry.

Weapons would shatter before doing any MDC damage.  They would do damage like a club to SD critters.

So page 361 of RUE is what I'm using with a couple of changes I forgot to mention.  Aimed shots take one action.  If you're aiming for more than a second or two without artificial support, you actually worsen your chances to hit.  Marines wear badges that tell how well we qualified at the range.  Yes, we take that shit seriously.

Shooting wild is veryt situational.  If you're moving, dodging (yes, I said dodging.  That's some action here shit right there!), or otherwise disoriented that isn't covered.

I have to look up parrying energy blasts.  I don't remember the exact rule on it.  I am pretty sure it doesn't apply to lasers and such.  mostly just energy blasts from creatures and abilities.

My recollection on parrying energy is that its only a thing with selected weapons and OOCs.

In reply to Man in Black (msg # 51):

So given its a group of guys, it's not going to help closing the distance? Parry is a free action normally. Do they have to aim at me to shoot, or can they do full or short bursts on someone in the middle of their group without any problem? There is really no point in me running up if all 6-10 of them can shoot me with no aiming issues no matter where I end up in the middle of them. If I dodge, assuming I can dodge because at this range I am dodging their aim not their energy weapon fire, will in use up one attack to get a dodge roll at all those incoming attacks, I do I use a dodge per attack roll incoming?

Edit-i will change my action, as running into melee does not seem to help whatsoever.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:37, Thu 17 Aug 2017.

I’ve never been taught the 15ft rule in all my police training. I’ve always been taught the 21ft rule (that at 21ft or less, an edged weapon opponent will be able to close and attack prior to an Officer drawing their holstered weapon, aiming and firing). That said Palladium has never heard of that rule and in fact, only having an elementary school level knowledge of things like physics, psychology or biology. ^_^

So back to my question, it sounds like you are going with the RUE with mods, as you said. Aimed shots back to only taking a single action is a big difference. What about called shots? Does that take one action? And Aimed and Called shots? How many actions will that take?

Dodging any sort of modern weapon in the RUE is done at a -10 at ranges under 10ft and -5 at ranges of 50ft. Oh and just to make us do even more math, only your PP and OCC/RCC bonuses apply to the dodge roll. No bonuses from skills.

Also in the RUE, Palladium changed things back to parrying bullets/energy blasts (of all kinds) is impossible. Unless, as Carl mentioned, you have special circumstances. Ugh. Why couldn’t Palladium have just released an actual 2nd edition like everyone else?

If you look at page 41 of the GM Guide, rules for parrying modern weapons are there. Basically -10 to parry at ranges under 400ft and -12 for ranges more than 500ft. Why is it the opposite of the dodging rule, where the farther away you are the easier it is? Palladium. That’s why.

There are a lot of different special rules for parrying and trying to find them all and develop one set of cohesive rules would require more time than I have today. I seem to recall a Flaming Shield (per the tattoo) could parry modern weapon attacks at only a -3 but I can’t find that anywhere right now. I will look some more later.

My action depends on what the final ruling here is, and what Rodrigo ends up deciding to do. So I will wait for a bit longer.

I'm not going to weigh in on the crunch, but I will point out that were talking about a game with magic and psionics and pistols that do as much damage as a modern day tank gun. Realism is kinda out the window. Anime or comics might be a better place to look for examples of how to handle things.

It's true. Either we are dealing with magical science or sciencey magic. Take your pick.

I'm not arguing the rulings. Merely offering the knowledge I have for clarification, or offering a handwave to speed the acceptance process up.

As for parrying sub-lightspeed lasers...actually I have no idea why that would play out like that. Them's the breaks.

Rodrigo, I would only give the guy you are targeting the opportunity to shoot first.  The other guys would have to wait until their initiative.  Yes, each dodge is needed for each attack.  I don't think this is very difficult encounter since there is a lot of power in the group.  The first encounter is always a bit of a feeling out process, especially in a game as wildly varied as Rifts.

Kahlvin, I may not remember the distance exactly since it's been awhile and things do change.  Heck, every time I had CPR training the method had changed. Some rules are more detailed than others.  Some have different interpretations depending on the GM.  That's Palladium for you.  I interpret the rules through my own experiences and get something a little different from everyone else.

I hear what you're saying, Gabby.  There are varying levels of realism in comics and anime. I tend to lean more towards the realism side.  Not too real, though.  In reality, nobody is dodging a bullet.  Nobody.  Mythbusters took care of that one.  It seems to me that this game gives an edge to melee over ranged.  I have no doubt that our frontliners could wade into those troops and wreak some serious havoc.  Yeah you'll lose some MDC, but you can get it back.  That's why I let you guys top up on it.

So give me a little bit of rope, guys.  If the rules are getting in the way of having a good time, we'll change them.  I'm not so old and stuck in my ways that I can't change if there is a strong consensus.

Palladium, that's why.  Great catchphrase.  Any Palladium vet will nod their heads in agreement.

So can you summarize the rulings again?

If you charge a guy with a gun out, he gets to shoot you before you get there, even if you have init?

No dodging gunshots? Or minus a lot?

Minus a lot to parry gunshots?

What happens if I make my indestructible flaming shield and crouch down behind it? Its a big shield, like a hoplum. If we're going with realism, I shouldn't need to roll to parry incoming ranged attacks, I should get some awesome automatic cover... Does palladium even have cover rules?

Cover rules are simplified: Called Shot to hit, maybe with or without a penalty depending on the size of the area they need to aim at.

And there is precedent for an enemy getting a free shot from rushing at them: Palladium Fantasy weaponry, usually when you are breaking out a longspear against someone with a knife.

With that in mind...I can see where she is coming from with her questions. I still think these soldiers are about to get knocked around like bowling pins.

In reply to Gabriella (msg # 55):

Oh if we are talking about how to handle RPGs in general, I believe in a careful balancing act between these three forces; Realism, Cinematics and Simplicity.

Realism. Reality. The real world we all have to live in whether we like it or not. It is filled with all sorts of rules, like gravity and thermodynamics. It can be a pretty complicated mess at times, trying to keep track of them all. In fact, a good part of the appeal of RPGs is that which the psychologists call “escapism”. The chance to escape the rules of reality, even if it just temporary and only into an imaginary construct. So why would we want to bring reality in with us to our imaginary world? Aren’t we escaping from reality?

Well there are a couple reasons for it. First, the closer our imaginary world is to reality, the easier it is to relate to. We have to work less at suspending our disbelief and the less work we have to do that, well I’m always a fan of less work. Yet having said that, it is possible to bring too much reality into our imaginary world. In fact it is entirely too easy to bring so much reality that our imaginary world ceases to be imaginary.

Next we have what I call “Cinematics” or the Hollywood Effect. That is where we take all the books (PDFs for the 21st century kids) on physics and toss them right out. Who wants to worry about all that noise? Lets have giant robots that move just like people, firing impossibly powerful lasers at each…and dodging them! Lets have a space wizards that can wave their hands and make the bad guys just repeat whatever they say! Lets have a world where people can run around in tights, jump over buildings or get punched through buildings but somehow, either their clothes never tear or if they do tear, it will never, ever be anywhere considered “a private place”. Heck lets take it ever further and have people that can go from people sized to giant green hulking brutes who shred through their shirts…unless they are female…and in both cases their pants will grow with them (see above mentioned “private places” rules)

Yes having those things can be fun and entertaining. However there comes a point where it can be too much or something happens and we just shake our heads and say “well that makes no sense”. It can be jarring, suddenly going from enjoying our imaginary world, running along and then coming to a screeching halt. We stop and reach back for the real world, trying to apply the rules of it to the situation we face in the imaginary world. It takes time, its distracting and it kills the fun when those moments happen.

Last we have Simplicity. Keep It Simple, See? (Yes I know that’s not the standard way to say that). That we need rules to govern our imaginary world is a rule itself. The only question is what are the rules? For me the answer is, KISS. If it requires the equivalent of a four year course of study to understand all the rules of the system, you’ve got far too many rules, charts, tables and not enough fun. If you have to reference three books, a calculator and roll five different sets of dice just to answer one question, you’ve got too many rules. On the other end, too few and you end up encountering situations where you stop, starting asking questions and reach back for reality to try and resolve them. I’ve already covered why that is not fun.

So to maximize the fun for everyone, a balance is needed between these three forces. Palladium’s lack of balance is so well known it’s hardly worth mentioning it in detail. Actually beyond that, I’ve already typed over 600 words and really don’t feel like typing another 16,000 words listing in detail all the short comings of the system.  It’s not the Palladium system that keeps me coming back to Rifts, it’s the setting.

That’s how I feel about the RPG experience with regards to reality Vs Realism Vs Simple ^_^

PS I will still try to find all the rules for parrying modern weapons. I know I read the one about tattoo Flaming Shields being able to parry modern weapons at a -3…somewhere.

I got ninja'd, but and did not get to read Kahls post.

As for charging with initiative against a ranged target, the target gets to shoot the charging character because they can call for a Simo-attack which takes their next action. It should follow all the rules of any other Simo-attack.

That awesome flaming shield lets the wielder get away with 'impossible' things....at just a penalty, as a free action (parry). It's size is based on the creator. Palladium doesn't care about your realism  ;-)

With enough cover an attack has to be a called shot to hit the exposed area, which means it requires at least a 12 and probably takes an extra action to boot. I forgot the base rules on if the die has to be a 12 or if its a 12 after bonuses, but the way I have played it, the die has to be a natural 12 or higher or the shot will end up hitting the main body, which would hit the cover.

I'm honestly not trying to *argue* or push for any particular rule. I'm fine with whatever the gm decides. I'd just like that it be clearly stated what the rule is. Even if it eventually changes again. That way we know what to expect.

Same basic concept with the shield question. If gm says its still a parry I'm not going to argue.

I agree with the no argument sentiment. Ask for clarification or suggest options but never argue with the GM. That isn't good for anyone.

the initiative chart you posted goes 1-me, 2-everybody else,  3-me, 4-everybody else, etc. I move up as an action. Then one guy gets a free shot on me, then him and the rest of his friends go, all of whom can shoot me just fine in melee. Then, if I am still standing, I go again.

my tactic does not help me by the rules. All it does is give them an easier shot at me. Why would I do it?

Edit-I updated my move, taking into account your ruling and changed my action. You can see the edit there.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:21, Thu 17 Aug 2017.

I sincerely hope that we don't have too many mages casting Fear, or this could turn into a PC slaughter-- if it takes one of their actions to stop all of us from acting, or even the vast majority, we might never get to actually act.  But if I can just manage some decent rolls, I can deal with it and maybe drop one of the mages.

That does raise a good question, with a spell created Horror Factor do we get to use both our ME bonus and our PE bonus vs magic, or just the ME or should it be the higher of the two?

In reply to Ariel (msg # 66):

I'm pretty sure you get none of the bonuses. The PE bonus is only on save Vs spells and the ME is only Vs psi or insanity. Spells that cause other effect than a straight save don't get the PE bonus. A Dodge still only uses PP.

HF only get OCC/RCC bonuses.

Wyatt Earp drew his pistol from a coat pocket and shot both Ike Clanton and Frank Laury, who had already drawn and fired their pistols, before they could shoot him at the OK Corral.  The average human has a reaction time of 6/10 of a second.  I have seen a Cowboy Shooter draw his pistol and shoot accurately from the hip in 6/100 of a second.  I have seen a communications specialist in an Army military police company draw a pistol from his pants pocket, drop into a full weaver stance and put two rounds into the chest of an armed perp, with gun in hand, in 5/1000 second on a Firearms Training Simulator.  Same soldier who drew a boot knife while sitting on the ground then jumped up to draw the knife against his captor's belly as the rifle discharged next to his knee; they were about 10 feet apart.

In reply to Victoria Sterling (msg # 67):

All spells, unless specifically stated otherwise, can be resisted using all "Save Vs Magic" bonuses, regardless of source.

Of course if the GM decides to change that rule, then that won't apply.

In reply to Kahlvyn Hahlynd (msg # 69):

I'd say you are wrong there.

The PE bonus to magic saves is to the 12 (or higher) you have to save vs. a spell.

All spells have an entry called saving throw. If it says standard then you go with the standard saving throw where PE applies. If it says anything else (like dodge or HF) then you don't add the PE bonus (or any other bonuses for that matter except the normal bonuses to that kind of roll).

You realize you just said exactly what I did, only wordier. ^_^

In reply to Kahlvyn Hahlynd (msg # 71):


Ah.. I thought you meant it the other way around like it was suggested by Ariel. Sorry for the confusion :)

The HF of the fear spell is one of the more nasty things to be up against in Rifts. There's very few bonuses to gain to the save and if you go by RAW then you have to save each combat round or loose the first action in the round.

The Fear spell explicitly says that its save is "Special"-- you make the Horror save; you do not get the standard Magic saving throw.

OTOH, at least it's only costing us the first attack in a melee.  Which might not mean anything to those of us who've already used it this round?  But it also puts us in the bottom of the Initiative order, and prevents us from defending against the first attack of a given enemy, so, y'know, not so good.

I take it the other party is fighting against the Fear spell and that is how this topic started.

I have reviewed every rule for Horror Factor, in the GM Guide and the RUE, plus the Fear spell as written in the RUE, along with all the other rules regarding saving throws and magic.

The short answer is, the Fear spell can be resisted by using any and all bonuses to save Vs Horror Factor that a PC possesses. Another defense is to be inside or power armor, robot vehicle or vehicle that is full environmental (but not environmental body armor). Lastly getting outside of the 20ft diameter of the spell will work too.

How long does it take to activate a psionic power that doesn't state a trance length?  (I'm thinking of putting the coalition troops in TK bubbles)

One attack each use.  I had a Mind Mage use Psychic Forcefield against a couple of vampires (at first level, no less).  He constricted the forcefields so that neither could move, then dropped one in a stream and cancelled his power.  The other he pinned to the ground and laid down on top of him with his weight pressing a silver dagger into the forcefield over the heart.  Then cancelled it.  The GM allowed because it was a clever use, we were first level, and I made my Lore skill check.  And, of course, the vampires weren't wearing environmental armor.
I could give other ideas, but I don't think the GM would like that.....

That is indeed a cleaver use of a versatile psychic forcefield but if you are actually using the super-psionics power Telekinetic Force Field is both immobile and has a minimum size to large to pin human sized targets so it is not nearly as versatile as the version you used.

None the less it is an excellent power and well worth using in situations like this.  Particularly if we are near a leyline because it benefits from that proximity.

For some reason this thread never showed as having new posts or I would have had answers for you.  It seems like every spell, power, or psionic techniques has it's own rules.  In general, use whatever bonuses you have available unless I note otherwise.  If I give you an edge by missing a small rule, so be it.  There are so many ifs, ands, or buts in this game.  It's enough to drive a GM crazy.  Good thing I'm already crazy.  :D

I have to do some clean-up on this thread as well.  I have never seen this much participation in a thread like this before.

I do believe we discussed parrying energy blasts before.  Pretty sure I aid it didn't apply to lasers and such.  If the rule from the magic shield allows it, that's fine.

Psychic powers are instant unless the power says otherwise.

So does that mean the -10 rule doesn't apply? Or did you mean you can't parry lasers "and such"? If so, could you clarify what is "and such"? Thanks in advance.

I know, super headache inducing.  Something about magic shields rings a bell, but I can't remember.  I'll look it up this evening.  Work is picking up so I really can't spare the time to search for the right book at the moment.  Your rolls were too low, anyway.  On the plus side, you hit with your sword!

Found the Parrying Energy weapons rule!

Conversion book, page 10.

If you are using a magic shield, you CAN parry energy blasts. NOTE, energy blasts ONLY. You can't parry bursts.

This rule applies to Psionic shields too.

It doesn't say anything about any negatives applied to the parry but the RUE does.
This message was last edited by the player at 16:31, Fri 25 Aug 2017.

Cyberknights make that even more interesting.

Shouldn't be a problem. There's no longer any bursts with energy weapons. That was an old rule that disappeared with RUE.

No bursts could also be interpreted as meaning no pulse bursts. That could be a big problem.

I would say that rule should never be interpreted like that.  The books have a handful of things that intrinsically have power settings for exactly that function.

For example the existence of such things such as my J20 pulse rifle.

That's the problem. Palladium wrote the rule(s) in such a way as to leave them open to multiple interpretations.

If a rule can be interpreted in multiple ways, it will be. I realize that it can be more work to write rules in such a way as to leave only one way to understand them but that's the price to pay for a good system.

Energy weapons that fire pulses as alternate firing modes, all of which are both single target attacks and can be used as aimed shots, aren't really bursts and never have been.  Every now and again you see pulse and burst words together but they are surely not intended to suggest that the laser with a pulse setting has access to any burst fire functions that may or may not exist.

See you're assuming pulse bursts aren't covered by this rule but you don't know for certain. Why? Because Palladium.

If they had written it to say, Pulse and not Pulse Burst, there would be no or at least very little question. That's not what it written though.

So we are again faced with how to interpret the rule. That's where the GM comes in, tells us the way they see it, and then we can get in with the game. ^_^

I would think that, since a laser had no recoil, it would not matter about aim or burst.  Plus, the pulses are a microsecond apart, which would make it practically a single shot.

Hold up, stop right there. You're applying logic and physics to Palladium. They mix about as well as oil and water. Lol

Seriously, let's just see what the GM decides. Personally I would be delighted if the GM says pulse bursts can be parried.

Actually, Palladium says lasers are silent, though most have a sound generator that can be turned off on sniper weapons, and have no recoil.  Other energy weapons make noise and have recoil, especially railguns.

Thank you for finding that rule, Kahl.  So magic shields can 'parry' in what is essentially a last ditch effort to put a shield in front of you.  Same modifiers as dodging energy applies.


So burst vs. pulse.  A pulse is basically a 3 round burst setting like on a M16A2.  They just decided it needs its own name and shit.  Someone needs to get ol' Kev's medications sorted out.  A burst can also be yanking your trigger as fast as possible.  So for you non-marksmen out there, trigger pull is an extremely important technique.  It's more important than lining up your sights properly.  Shooters say squeeze the trigger, not pull.  Firing bursts with a laser rifle doesn't mean you're going all 80's on the bad guys, Rambo.  I'm not going to get into how much time 15 seconds really is other than that being enough time to easily empty 3 magazines with my Glock and hit black every time.  And no, my Glock did not have a burst fire mode.

Why they made the changes is too much to ponder.  So the standard Palladium rules for bursts apply.  20% magazine for x2 damage. Etc.  Just use the bonuses and modifiers from RUE.  Make sense?  Of course, you can't burst a single shot weapon.  Spraying an area does require a full auto setting.

To be clear, pulse bursts can or can't be parried?

The idea for 'damage' in this game is a center mass hit (ie main body).
Pretty much any regular sized shield, like the Flaming Magic Tattoo shield is, covers nearly all of the wielders center mass from 1 direction.

The parry roll is basically trying to get the shield 'in the way' of the ranged attack. Everybody is shooting at the 'main body' so the shield should be hit most of the time....regardless of whether the attack is a burst, pulse-burst, long burst, etc.

Shooting wild, emptying a magazine for a machine gun, area effects...when things are going all over the place should hit 'other parts' of the target, and possibly the main body....even if the rules don't support random hit locations.

IMO the parry roll is only to see if the projectile hits the shield or somehow slipped around it. I am not sure why there is a -10 to parry energy weapons if they are not called shots and they are coming from the front 60 degrees that the shield is set to block with. If it was a called shot to hit the leg....then you have to parry that with that penalty.

Now that is just over thinking.

The rules for parrying ranged attacks from bullets or lasers do not change between single shots and short bursts.

Most of the time you can not parry ranged attacks, if you have a special skill or item that lets you do it with or without a penalty depending on the situation and feature the change between pulses and single attacks and short bursts does not influence your roll.

Most of the 'shields' are actually bubbles and the roll is to see if you get the bubble active in time, the hand held shields tend to have their own unique rules often per shield.

Yes, you can 'parry' with a magic shield.  Megastias and Darvin make good points.  I'm going to keep it in line with the dodge to keep it simple.

so with fireball it says large ball but only hits one target? am I reading that correctly?

Yes. It's counter intuitive. Another reason why direct damage spells in Rifts aren't generally used by PCs.

What's my penalty to try and dodge incoming fire? Despite being in melee with them?

I think dodging gunfire has enough penalties.  We'll say that the distraction and cover of melee cancels each other out.  Use the standard penalty for dodging close range fire.

In reply to Man in Black (msg # 101):

So...-10?

I haven't had time to break out my computer to look it up, but that sounds right.

In reply to Man in Black (msg # 103):

In that case I won't waste the attack. Just suck up the damage.

The knockdown rules from GM's Guide pg. 35 is in full effect.

Not familiar with that.  But, I have my own specialized knockback effect....

It just means explosions and such have a chance of knocking down characters depending on the damage rolled.

In reply to Man in Black (msg # 107):

That depends on character weight, correct?

In a general sense.  MD creatures over a certain number, power armor, and such.  I don't have the book in front of me to give you exact numbers.  It mostly applies to regular size beings.

Unless you have the Knock Back Attack minor super ability.  It gives no conditions or weight restrictions.  Except that the character has to Pull Punch in order to NOT use the power.

In reply to Man in Black (msg # 109):

Gotcha, but I have also noted characters with excessive weight-like me coming in at nearly 1000 pounds, are often immune to many knockback/knockdown attacks. Not the super ability as Darvin pointed out however.

Yeah, I'm going to keep some semblance of logic here.  Anything heavier than a 'normal' being in enviro armor shouldn't be tossed around by typical explosions.  With Rifts being what it is, there is no way I could account for every situation ahead of time.

There is a system for knockback by damage designed for throwing around indestructible vampires.  It is just about the only version of the system I can think about based on the damage rather than some sort of special feature of one weapon or another.

Given how different the special feature knockback rules are from each other I would not recommend trying to merge them into a cohesive rule.

In general I would not bother applying knockback to anything when it is not specifically called for but if you want to add that level of more realistic effects into your playstyle the damaged based system is likely the best way to at least start.

But, we are talking about Mega-Damage.  O could see a hand grenade not knocking a tank over, but getting hit by a volley of missiles might.  If you want to go scientific, knockback probably isn't going to affectva tank because of its low center of gravity.  A powerful wnough explosion may cause it to roll back a few feet a raise one tread off the ground.  However, humanoid robots, because of their higher center if gravity, would orobably get knocked around quite a bit.  Humans and others of equal size in body armor are probably going to get thrown around by railgun hitsm and explosions.

Again, I'm using the rules on pg. 34 of the GM guide.  There are guidelines for size.  It uses MDC as a measure.  A normal person in normal armor could go flying.  Someone like Rod with lots of mass, (high MDC) is not going anywhere.  A tank, robot, large power armor shouldn't be moved by anything short of massive explosions.  You know, the kind of explosions that generally aren't thrown around at character level.