Edit: Ahh, clarification on the language below. Thanks.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:54, Wed 02 Aug 2017.

SDC weapons don't do any damage to MD targets, not 1/100th, not 1/10th, it just doesn't work that direction.

The MD weapons do a tenth of the (normally expected x100) damage to SDC targets results in MDx10 = SDC.

I'd like to play Devil's Advocate for a moment and point out that this variation on MDC can make Golden Age Retrofits and Chipwell's deathtraps surprisingly resilient, increasing the damage they can take effectively tenfold.

Beyond that, no real issues I can detect.

Why? Is there a reason for such a change other than making Juicers into MDC creatures?

In reply to player 2 (msg # 17):

That is my understanding of the rules too.  My old group played it that way too.   I believe in one of the Rifts books they printed what was supposed to be a historical story of a dozen guys in full strength Glitter Boy power armor (shortly after they were invented) that absolutely devastated a modern army including tanks and such (which were all SDC armored and using SD weapons).  If I recall correctly they only lost 1 of the GB's in the assault too.  That certainty lends credibility to MDC armor being immune to SD weapons in my book.

In reply to Bak'ad (msg # 20):

That's not the way the rules were written.

On page 11 in the original book is says that 100 sdc is 1 md and 1 md is 100 sdc

And I just checked RUE. P. 288. The rules are pretty clear. 100 sdc is 1 md
This message was last edited by the player at 07:37, Thu 03 Aug 2017.

Why?  Because I want SD combat to be viable.  Multiplying damage x10 is still a massive amount of damage to a typical critter.  Sure, a juice could withstand a another blast or two from a Wilk's sissy pistol, but ask our Ley Line Walkers and Mind Melters in the crowd if they would like to take a shot.  Keep in mind that I use the optional damage tables when someone loses a goog chunk of their SDC and/or HP.  Someone takes a shot with an energy pistol loses 3/4 of his SDC is still going to be significantly hampered, but it is better than being atomized.  If this rule really offends a good chunk of the party, I'll ditch it.  You're not ruining the game nor breaking my spirit.

Some common sense rulings go along with the 100 SDC = 1 MD rule.  My titan can pick up Louisville Slugger and do over 100 points on PS bonus alone, but the bat will shatter before it scratches power armor.  If unload a whole magazine of 9mm from my SMG and roll 101 SDC, there is still no way it's damaging that armor.  Now if I launch a sabot rocket and hit with over 100 SDC, there's going to be a small scratch.

The switch to 1 MD = 10 is a one way trip.  A fairy dual wielding ak-47's on full auto is not going to take down your power armor.  I guarantee you.

Let's look at it this way: armor piercing rounds go through kevlar with ease.  A regular round won't pierce.  The AP round will pierce you, but most of the energy blows right through.  A regular round will mess up your weekend.

Yes, I know Palladium and reality parted ways a long time ago, but just feel this makes it less balls-out crazy.

Again, you guys rejecting this rule will not make me go home and beat my wife or my kids.  I will not have to make a pilgrimage to meditate with monks.  Heck, if we try it and it pretty much stinks, we can change things back.  I won't even have to up my blood pressure medication.

If what you are saying here is: 1 MD = 10 SDC and 100 SDC = 1 MD then you have converted me into a true believer :)

Ah. Experimentation, then! Very well. I shall serve as a loyal guinea pig, as long as it means I get to adventure in this insane setting.

To be honest, I'm a RAW guy...usually. I don't mind the Mage buff, despite me not being one myself, as I can see why you would do that.

I like to be a RAW guy, too.  I don't change things on a whim, at least.  I give it a lot of thought before I make a decision.  That's why my wife hates going to restaurants with big menus with me.

The Rules as written for using a very limited selection of SDC weapons to be able to technically do very small amounts of MDC are specific to a fairly narrow range of options.  Weapons that list their roll in SDCx100 are assumed to actually be doing roll in MDCx1 and energy weapons that inflict over 100 SDC are entitled to a single MD point of damage per fully 100 SDC, other than that the spray of bullets, or super strong guy with a butter knife do not in fact convert from SDC to MDC at all.

While even this small subset of items (even including golden age) do create questions that make the rule look problematic or cumbersome a GB (or Chromium Guardsmen of the era) group fighting against SDC tanks is still putting out 3d6x100 SDC per shot, or an average of 1050 damage vs tanks with 500-900 or so SDC on them, the change in the damage multiplier really just does not matter on that scale.

In the odd case where it seems like the quick fix version of the rule is not getting the job done it is perfectly reasonable to simply split the difference and use an x50 multiplier for that situation instead of either the x10 or x100.  I however doubt that will ever come up without someone going well out of their way to need it, particularly in a game in which Minotaur Titan Juicers are not allowed.

The change does not change MDC into SDC. It just changes the 1MD of damage to and SDC object does 100SD down to 10SD.

10SD /= 1MD

My friend who ran the SDC Rifts campaign did it on a 1 SDC:1 MDC ratio, which made the high technology weapons on par with the slug throwers.  However, he wanted explosives, like grenades and missiles, to be something to be feared.  So, he multiplied those by 100.
We had a Juicer who would always have his armor whittled down to scraps, but once he was butt naked, his dice wouldn't let let. You touch him.  I had a Crazy who used a full load of NG-Superlaser grenades ( internal and box mag) to being down the cwiling of the old subway onto a trio of CS piloted Ulti-Maxes.  Took out six of them, though.  He didn't know about the other three getting ready to drop into the fray from the level above.

I was thinking about this conversation, peacefully resting though it is, and I decided to perform some pseudo-necromancy on it.

I think the idea is to actually get some mileage out of SDC in this game, and make battle a bit less binary - either you have MDC armor/defenses and you live, or you don't and the next hit kills you.

Instead of reducing MDC when it hits an SDC target, I have an alternative: blowthrough damage, or chip damage.

The principal behind this is simple - the armor saves your life, but you still just got hit with an anti-tank missile. That's gonna hurt, armor or not. So, we have some of the damage go through as SDC, either on a point for point basis (which my brain says is a mistake) or at reduced value, somewhere between 10% to 20%.

Example - 30 MDC mini-missile. Take anywhere from 3 to 6 SDC damage, and you are probably thrown through the air like a ragdoll, which probably won't deal extra damage...unless intense bludgeoning forces like gravity are critical weak spots in MDC armor defenses, which could create a whole new style of combat in its own right, one more akin to streetfighting than honorable combat.

Armor-piercing might actually do extra (double?) damage to the wearer, because it is designed to mess up armor.

This is only for worn or powered armor, sadly, but it could probably be adapted for vehicles. Just...a bit of caution here. This could either be meaningless (in which case it is extra bookkeeping that wastes time), or it could render the armor worthless less meaningful, as being KOed is still better than being killed.

This does also create the possibility of a mob grabbing you and just beating you to death by hitting you against objects. The armor? It's fine, not a scratch - the wearer, on the other hand...

I think we're on the same train, you and I.  I do want to get some milage out of the SDC side.
 It's either you have MDC or you lose.

There are rules for taking damage in armor for things like explosions.  I plan on using them when the situation warrants.  I don't want to get too detailed in it since this is primarily an action game.

I recommend using the table for the Knockback Attack power in the Powers Unlimited book for explosions and getting hit by railguns.  Or a version of it.  Very cinematic, and somewhat realistic.

Which version of the printed rules are we using for determining Supernatural/Robotic strength as it is applied to melee weapons? I've read through the posts I can see and didn't find if this had already been answered.

Are we going with Supernatural/Robotic strength levels, those that can cause MD with their fists, add their base punch damage when using a melee weapon, to the melee weapon's damage?

Or are we going with the use whichever is greater?

If the GM is taking a vote, I'd vote for the former as the later makes no sense. The reason why is simple; if you have a Supernatural or Robotic strength of X, which allows you to do say, 4D6 MD with a punch, why would you ever pick up a vibro-knife or TW sword that does 3D6 MD? You would only ever use your fists/feet, etc in a fight and never bother with a weapon.

If on the other we go with the original rules, then it makes sense for Supernatural/Robotic strength characters to actually own (and care about owning) and use a weapon. Keeping the above stats, the sword wielder would then do 7D6 MD.

In reply to Kahlvyn Hahlynd (msg # 32):

Granted, but I actually have a retractable  vibro blade because I don't want to parry other mdc stuff with my limbs. Also some of my HTH mdc melee options do more damage than my raw strength.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:13, Wed 09 Aug 2017.

The RUE has a clear ruling that for MD, it is Base Strength Damage OR the Weapon's Base Damage, whichever is greater.

In this system, it doesn't matter if you hit something with a blunt object (fist) or a bladed weapon when it comes down to how much damage does it do. In the Whitewolf system it does matter and the difference is that you have to do a whole heck of a lot more bashing (fist) damage before somebody is about die than lethal damage (Sword, gun, enery weapon). Short of Phase Weapons (and some magical effects/weapons) there is no piercing MDC armor/materials/shields. There is for SDC armor/shields/etc which is covered by AR. Defeating AR by having bonuses to Strike which WP Sword (etc) gives your character over the base HtH skills.

While the game doesn't provide for 'reach' most GM's add in some kind of benefit and penalties for wielding pole arms, generally I give an Initiative bonus vs other melee wielders. Characters using fists against somebody with a Pike/Halberd, out in the open, automatically lose initiative.

Shields generally take damage when they are used to parry a blow, even though weapons don't, which is weird, but this is Palladium. Thus, if the character is parrying with their arm, then the arm takes damage, just usually not the full amount. Having a weapon somehow magically allows for no damage to be taken against anything. This also bothered me in that you could technically use a SDC sword to parry a MD vibro-blade.....and the other guy had to intentionally target the SDC sword to damage it.

So, no damage parries, reach, potentially better damage because there is no real armor piercing against MDC structures.

I know, that's why I am asking which set of the rules the GM is using when it comes to this particular issue; the RUE or the original.

I'm pretty much all in on the RUE unless I see something particularly stupid.

So does this fall under stupid?

While I understand the sentiment, given the system we more or less agreed to be bound by when we joined the game, I doubt it.

I could suggest an incentive to use the Pull Punch/Attack rules, given that no one in their right mind would ever do that in a life or death fight without reason: instead of cutting the damage in half for no reason at all, instead simply have the damage be non-fatal. This would turn Pulling an Attack into what it was intended to be.

Ok, how about stupider than stupid?  :p

I still don't see anyone pulling their punches.  Since the only way of subduing someone is through pinning or beating the piss out of them, what's the point?  To be honest, I don't see the need to push for people to use it.

Because last I checked, reducing someone's HP to zero by any means puts them in a coma. This simply provides an alternative. If it is pointless, however, due to a detail I have overlooked, I will push no further.