Alright so if I understand you GM, you are going with the RUE on MD melee combat.

There are a few ways to subdue, or otherwise contain harmlessly, most people in the Rifts world other than flat out damage or physical wrestling.  Most of those however are limited in either spell/psi duration or very difficult to make portable.

This little guy will be pulling his punches ALOT.

Don't get too wrapped up in the rules or what could be or has been problems in other games.  I'm not new to Palladium, though I'm certain many of you are more savvy than me on Rifts, nor am I new to being a GM.  I've run way more games than I've ever played.  My focus is on the story, not the rules.  I do like to make the rules fit the story, but I don't go changing things until I see a problem.  Most problems, in my experience, has been players taking advantage of weak rules to be superior to everyone else.  If I see a need to fix a rule, I will be sure to tell you the rule, the change, and my thoughts on why.  I ilke putting characters into interesting situations to see how they react.  I don't go looking for ways to kill characters unless someone is really asking for it.  The only guy I remember killing highlighted himself to a bunch of vampire sorcerers in what was essentially a stealth mission.  But, he wanted to be the hero and try to take on a vampire army with a 2nd level psion.  An army, by the way, that all but wiped out Faerun.

Just a quick question regards combat posts: Do you want us to post per attack or per melee round?

Per attack.  Going through that many actions at once would take all night.  It also takes away from any sense of being a tactical combat.

If someone moves into melee with a bunch of people holding rifles, can I still use parry given they are trying to use ranged weapons at PB range? Trying to figure out my first move here...
This message was last updated by the player at 12:45, Wed 16 Aug 2017.

I'm not the official authority on this, but that sounds completely reasonable. Gives ranged combatants a reason to keep combat ranged: to stop their guns from turning into glorified invisible, retractable spears, which is what point-blank shooting can be compared to.

It will also bring pistol whips and rifle butt-strokes and barrel-jabs into play.  Say 1d6 with the pistol, 2d4 with the butt of the rifle and 1d6 with the barrel.

Since it matter shortly, which version of the Dodge energy weapons rules are you using? And related to that, which rules for parrying energy blasts?

So if you're moving into melee range of a rifleman, it depends on the distance involved.  I know from my police training that a knife wielding guy at about 15 ft will smurf your smurf up before you can fully draw your pistol.  Now if the gunman has his pistol up and ready, well, Sean Connery was correct.  Since Rod moves really, really, really, really fast, I think his distance is a little greater.  Now I'm trying to do physics calculations at 3 in the morning with only a single cup of coffee in me...  Attacks and movement is a bitch in Palladium.  So if Hot Rod is the example, he acts every 2 seconds.  Spd 135 x 5 = 675 yards/rnd 675/7= 96 yards per action.  So yeah, you can pretty much reach in one action, but 2 seconds is a lot of time to a prepared rifleman.  I'm fairly confident that back when I was a young Marine in my prime, I could easily get off 6 rounds in the two seconds it would take for a cyborg to reach me and kill me anyway.

Now what does all this word vomit mean?  If you have close enough range and the initiative, you can knock that gun away.  If it's a rifle.  It takes a fraction of a second to pull a trigger.  Unless you do a ready action, you can't knock that rifle away fast enough.  The upside is you've taken away an attack.  Of course it cost you an attack, too.  I guess that could also be a simultaneous attack...  Anywho, any normal combatant is going to have to retreat or go hand-to-hand when someone knocks their rifle away.  It's just not a close quarters weapon.

So if you charge from a distance, you lose initiative and take a shot.  Otherwise you can simultaneous attack to hit the rifle out of the way.  Or ready a parry.

Weapons would shatter before doing any MDC damage.  They would do damage like a club to SD critters.

So page 361 of RUE is what I'm using with a couple of changes I forgot to mention.  Aimed shots take one action.  If you're aiming for more than a second or two without artificial support, you actually worsen your chances to hit.  Marines wear badges that tell how well we qualified at the range.  Yes, we take that shit seriously.

Shooting wild is veryt situational.  If you're moving, dodging (yes, I said dodging.  That's some action here shit right there!), or otherwise disoriented that isn't covered.

I have to look up parrying energy blasts.  I don't remember the exact rule on it.  I am pretty sure it doesn't apply to lasers and such.  mostly just energy blasts from creatures and abilities.

My recollection on parrying energy is that its only a thing with selected weapons and OOCs.

In reply to Man in Black (msg # 51):

So given its a group of guys, it's not going to help closing the distance? Parry is a free action normally. Do they have to aim at me to shoot, or can they do full or short bursts on someone in the middle of their group without any problem? There is really no point in me running up if all 6-10 of them can shoot me with no aiming issues no matter where I end up in the middle of them. If I dodge, assuming I can dodge because at this range I am dodging their aim not their energy weapon fire, will in use up one attack to get a dodge roll at all those incoming attacks, I do I use a dodge per attack roll incoming?

Edit-i will change my action, as running into melee does not seem to help whatsoever.
This message was last edited by the player at 11:37, Thu 17 Aug 2017.

I’ve never been taught the 15ft rule in all my police training. I’ve always been taught the 21ft rule (that at 21ft or less, an edged weapon opponent will be able to close and attack prior to an Officer drawing their holstered weapon, aiming and firing). That said Palladium has never heard of that rule and in fact, only having an elementary school level knowledge of things like physics, psychology or biology. ^_^

So back to my question, it sounds like you are going with the RUE with mods, as you said. Aimed shots back to only taking a single action is a big difference. What about called shots? Does that take one action? And Aimed and Called shots? How many actions will that take?

Dodging any sort of modern weapon in the RUE is done at a -10 at ranges under 10ft and -5 at ranges of 50ft. Oh and just to make us do even more math, only your PP and OCC/RCC bonuses apply to the dodge roll. No bonuses from skills.

Also in the RUE, Palladium changed things back to parrying bullets/energy blasts (of all kinds) is impossible. Unless, as Carl mentioned, you have special circumstances. Ugh. Why couldn’t Palladium have just released an actual 2nd edition like everyone else?

If you look at page 41 of the GM Guide, rules for parrying modern weapons are there. Basically -10 to parry at ranges under 400ft and -12 for ranges more than 500ft. Why is it the opposite of the dodging rule, where the farther away you are the easier it is? Palladium. That’s why.

There are a lot of different special rules for parrying and trying to find them all and develop one set of cohesive rules would require more time than I have today. I seem to recall a Flaming Shield (per the tattoo) could parry modern weapon attacks at only a -3 but I can’t find that anywhere right now. I will look some more later.

My action depends on what the final ruling here is, and what Rodrigo ends up deciding to do. So I will wait for a bit longer.

I'm not going to weigh in on the crunch, but I will point out that were talking about a game with magic and psionics and pistols that do as much damage as a modern day tank gun. Realism is kinda out the window. Anime or comics might be a better place to look for examples of how to handle things.

It's true. Either we are dealing with magical science or sciencey magic. Take your pick.

I'm not arguing the rulings. Merely offering the knowledge I have for clarification, or offering a handwave to speed the acceptance process up.

As for parrying sub-lightspeed lasers...actually I have no idea why that would play out like that. Them's the breaks.

Rodrigo, I would only give the guy you are targeting the opportunity to shoot first.  The other guys would have to wait until their initiative.  Yes, each dodge is needed for each attack.  I don't think this is very difficult encounter since there is a lot of power in the group.  The first encounter is always a bit of a feeling out process, especially in a game as wildly varied as Rifts.

Kahlvin, I may not remember the distance exactly since it's been awhile and things do change.  Heck, every time I had CPR training the method had changed. Some rules are more detailed than others.  Some have different interpretations depending on the GM.  That's Palladium for you.  I interpret the rules through my own experiences and get something a little different from everyone else.

I hear what you're saying, Gabby.  There are varying levels of realism in comics and anime. I tend to lean more towards the realism side.  Not too real, though.  In reality, nobody is dodging a bullet.  Nobody.  Mythbusters took care of that one.  It seems to me that this game gives an edge to melee over ranged.  I have no doubt that our frontliners could wade into those troops and wreak some serious havoc.  Yeah you'll lose some MDC, but you can get it back.  That's why I let you guys top up on it.

So give me a little bit of rope, guys.  If the rules are getting in the way of having a good time, we'll change them.  I'm not so old and stuck in my ways that I can't change if there is a strong consensus.

Palladium, that's why.  Great catchphrase.  Any Palladium vet will nod their heads in agreement.

So can you summarize the rulings again?

If you charge a guy with a gun out, he gets to shoot you before you get there, even if you have init?

No dodging gunshots? Or minus a lot?

Minus a lot to parry gunshots?

What happens if I make my indestructible flaming shield and crouch down behind it? Its a big shield, like a hoplum. If we're going with realism, I shouldn't need to roll to parry incoming ranged attacks, I should get some awesome automatic cover... Does palladium even have cover rules?

Cover rules are simplified: Called Shot to hit, maybe with or without a penalty depending on the size of the area they need to aim at.

And there is precedent for an enemy getting a free shot from rushing at them: Palladium Fantasy weaponry, usually when you are breaking out a longspear against someone with a knife.

With that in mind...I can see where she is coming from with her questions. I still think these soldiers are about to get knocked around like bowling pins.

In reply to Gabriella (msg # 55):

Oh if we are talking about how to handle RPGs in general, I believe in a careful balancing act between these three forces; Realism, Cinematics and Simplicity.

Realism. Reality. The real world we all have to live in whether we like it or not. It is filled with all sorts of rules, like gravity and thermodynamics. It can be a pretty complicated mess at times, trying to keep track of them all. In fact, a good part of the appeal of RPGs is that which the psychologists call “escapism”. The chance to escape the rules of reality, even if it just temporary and only into an imaginary construct. So why would we want to bring reality in with us to our imaginary world? Aren’t we escaping from reality?

Well there are a couple reasons for it. First, the closer our imaginary world is to reality, the easier it is to relate to. We have to work less at suspending our disbelief and the less work we have to do that, well I’m always a fan of less work. Yet having said that, it is possible to bring too much reality into our imaginary world. In fact it is entirely too easy to bring so much reality that our imaginary world ceases to be imaginary.

Next we have what I call “Cinematics” or the Hollywood Effect. That is where we take all the books (PDFs for the 21st century kids) on physics and toss them right out. Who wants to worry about all that noise? Lets have giant robots that move just like people, firing impossibly powerful lasers at each…and dodging them! Lets have a space wizards that can wave their hands and make the bad guys just repeat whatever they say! Lets have a world where people can run around in tights, jump over buildings or get punched through buildings but somehow, either their clothes never tear or if they do tear, it will never, ever be anywhere considered “a private place”. Heck lets take it ever further and have people that can go from people sized to giant green hulking brutes who shred through their shirts…unless they are female…and in both cases their pants will grow with them (see above mentioned “private places” rules)

Yes having those things can be fun and entertaining. However there comes a point where it can be too much or something happens and we just shake our heads and say “well that makes no sense”. It can be jarring, suddenly going from enjoying our imaginary world, running along and then coming to a screeching halt. We stop and reach back for the real world, trying to apply the rules of it to the situation we face in the imaginary world. It takes time, its distracting and it kills the fun when those moments happen.

Last we have Simplicity. Keep It Simple, See? (Yes I know that’s not the standard way to say that). That we need rules to govern our imaginary world is a rule itself. The only question is what are the rules? For me the answer is, KISS. If it requires the equivalent of a four year course of study to understand all the rules of the system, you’ve got far too many rules, charts, tables and not enough fun. If you have to reference three books, a calculator and roll five different sets of dice just to answer one question, you’ve got too many rules. On the other end, too few and you end up encountering situations where you stop, starting asking questions and reach back for reality to try and resolve them. I’ve already covered why that is not fun.

So to maximize the fun for everyone, a balance is needed between these three forces. Palladium’s lack of balance is so well known it’s hardly worth mentioning it in detail. Actually beyond that, I’ve already typed over 600 words and really don’t feel like typing another 16,000 words listing in detail all the short comings of the system.  It’s not the Palladium system that keeps me coming back to Rifts, it’s the setting.

That’s how I feel about the RPG experience with regards to reality Vs Realism Vs Simple ^_^

PS I will still try to find all the rules for parrying modern weapons. I know I read the one about tattoo Flaming Shields being able to parry modern weapons at a -3…somewhere.

I got ninja'd, but and did not get to read Kahls post.

As for charging with initiative against a ranged target, the target gets to shoot the charging character because they can call for a Simo-attack which takes their next action. It should follow all the rules of any other Simo-attack.

That awesome flaming shield lets the wielder get away with 'impossible' things....at just a penalty, as a free action (parry). It's size is based on the creator. Palladium doesn't care about your realism  ;-)

With enough cover an attack has to be a called shot to hit the exposed area, which means it requires at least a 12 and probably takes an extra action to boot. I forgot the base rules on if the die has to be a 12 or if its a 12 after bonuses, but the way I have played it, the die has to be a natural 12 or higher or the shot will end up hitting the main body, which would hit the cover.

I'm honestly not trying to *argue* or push for any particular rule. I'm fine with whatever the gm decides. I'd just like that it be clearly stated what the rule is. Even if it eventually changes again. That way we know what to expect.

Same basic concept with the shield question. If gm says its still a parry I'm not going to argue.

I agree with the no argument sentiment. Ask for clarification or suggest options but never argue with the GM. That isn't good for anyone.

the initiative chart you posted goes 1-me, 2-everybody else,  3-me, 4-everybody else, etc. I move up as an action. Then one guy gets a free shot on me, then him and the rest of his friends go, all of whom can shoot me just fine in melee. Then, if I am still standing, I go again.

my tactic does not help me by the rules. All it does is give them an easier shot at me. Why would I do it?

Edit-I updated my move, taking into account your ruling and changed my action. You can see the edit there.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:21, Thu 17 Aug 2017.

I sincerely hope that we don't have too many mages casting Fear, or this could turn into a PC slaughter-- if it takes one of their actions to stop all of us from acting, or even the vast majority, we might never get to actually act.  But if I can just manage some decent rolls, I can deal with it and maybe drop one of the mages.