You guys are probably coming up on your first long rest.  Rules on sleep and long rests are surprisingly confusing, and it looks like there have been some recent rule changes in Sage Advice and PHB errata.

http://media.wizards.com/2017/...nloads/PH-Errata.pdf
http://media.wizards.com/2017/...ds/SA-Compendium.pdf

Relevant sections:



Joe is considering a warforged character, which has a trance like ability, which I’m not sure how to treat.  The above makes me think the warforged only needs 4 hours to complete a long rest, like an elf.  For all others 8 hours is required, 6 of which is spent sleeping.

The PHB suggests that a constitution check may be appropriate if you go without sleep, but isn’t specific beyond that.  Here is the rule I propose.

If you choose to go without 6 hours of sleep, role a constitution check.  The DC is the product of 6 times the number of days gone without completing a long rest minus the number of hours you have slept in the last 24 hours.  On a failure add one level of exhaustion to your current level.  After completing a long rest your level of exhaust is reduced by half, round down.

Some examples.

Flogwart goes 1 day without sleep, rolls a Con check against DC 6, and makes it, no exhaustion.  Flogwart goes a second day having slept only 2 hours, rolls a Con check against DC 10, fails and gains 1 level of exhaustion.  Flogwart goes a third day having slept just 1 hour, rolls a Con check against DC 17 and fails and gains another level of exhaustion.  On the fourth day Flogwart gets a much needed long rest, and goes down to level 1 exhaustion.  On the fifth day Flogwart gets another long rest and is recovered from his exhaustion due to lack of sleep in the previous days.

Kittertinct goes one day having slept 3 hours and rolls a Con check against DC 3, manages to fail and takes 1 level of exhaustion.  The next day she again only gets 3 hours of sleep, rolls a Con check against DC 9, this time saves, and stays at level 1 exhaustion.  On day three she gets a long rest and recovers completely from her exhaustion due to lack of sleep in the previous days.

I think this works even if you are elf or warforged.

Sound fair?

Constitution check or save. This makes a big difference since one level of exhaustion imposes disadvantage to ability checks (but not saves).

If it is a con save every night, I think it sounds fair.

Wasn't really aware of the distinction until now. I think Save is appropriate, and I think it says Save in the PHB.

I think the distinction between checks and saves is that a save is a reaction to something happening to you, to a avoid a penalty, and a check for something that you are trying to do.

I think in the context of sleep, I think it would make sense to roll a con check to see if you can stay awake (after a certain number of hours of trying to stay awake or something), and then roll a save to see if you take penalties after you manage to stay awake.

Side note, there are some spells and stuff (like hex) that impose disadvantage (or adv) to ability checks but not saves. Messing with a particular ability check is not a huge deal because you have so many options for action, and it doesn't affect attack rolls. One exception is defensive grappling checks are ability checks, not saves (which seems inconsistent to me), but if you are defending you have the option of using acrobatics or athletics. I guess there are other opposed checks, but they typically aren't as devastating as what you roll saves for (like spells).

As another aside, do you think someone would know if they are hexed, or hunter's marked? There is probably a sage advice about it... Because hexing someone before battle for dex would be a good use, since initiative is a dexterity check.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/01/14/hex-effect/

Sounds like they wouldn't know until it suffers an effect.

I think it is pretty unambiguously the case that the target doesn't know automatically, and I think I have the references to prove it....

In reply to Matt (msg # 167):

PHB 204:
...Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature's thoughts, typically goes unnoticed unless the spell says otherwise

Sage Advice Compendium, Page 11:
Do you always know when you’re under the effect of a
spell?

You’re aware that a spell is affecting you if it has a perceptible effect or if its text says you’re aware of it (see PH, 204, under “Targets”). Most spells are obvious. For example, fireball burns you, cure wounds heals you, and command forces you to suddenly do something you didn’t intend. Certain spells are more subtle, yet you become aware of the spell at a time specified in the spell’s description. Charm person and detect thoughts are examples of such spells.

Some spells are so subtle that you might not know you were ever under their effects. A prime example of that sort of spell is suggestion. Assuming you failed to notice the spellcaster casting the spell, you might simply remember the caster saying, “The treasure you’re looking for isn’t here. Go look for it in the room at the top of the next tower.” You failed your saving throw, and off you went to the other tower, thinking it was your idea to go there. You and your companions might deduce that you were beguiled if evidence of the spell is found. It’s ultimately up to the DM whether you discover the presence of inconspicuous spells. Discovery usually comes through the use of skills like Arcana, Investigation, Insight, and Perception or through spells like detect magic.

In reply to Matt (msg # 168):

I'd also add, now that I don't have a dog in the fight, that it STILL seems to me like there is a gap in the rules around attempt to cast with subtlety. It should be an opposed check between the caster and the observers, and the observers should get to use a number of checks (player preference) in opposition to the check made by the caster (probably dependent on the specific spell components being disguised or down-played).

And depending on distance, other noise, visibility, etc.

I have another question. Let's say you have a spell, like hex, where at some point you can change the target of the spell with a bonus action. Do you have to execute the same spell components (VSM) to switch targets? What about if you are wild-shaped at the time? I wasn't able to find the answer to this.

Also, let's say someone does see you cast the spell, can you obscufate the target? Like with Hex, if I said, "Die you mangey hell-demon goblin!" but then targeted a bugbear? Or even if I didn't say anything at all, just cast a spell that had not obvious effect, but the target saw the casting and everything.

In reply to Ratt (msg # 170):


I don't think so. These spells tend to require concentration, so "moving" the spell seems like one of the things you are buying for only being able to have that one spell up.


I don't think the observer can determine anything from the casting itself, unless the specifics of the casting (e.g. Command, which requires that the caster point at the target) and I think that reading is supported by the subtext of the Sage Advice piece I quoted.

Of course, this raises the real question: If I am a caster, can I perform all of the components of a spell without actually casting it, effectively bluffing that I have cast a spell on someone in such a way that I could convince an actual practitioner that I have cast a spell with a "inconspicuous" effect?

I would say yes, personally.

In reply to Matt (msg # 171):

Coming back to the idea of scripting, I also think it would be possible to build a "paging" service, so you could get notified if it has been your turn for over X hours/days etc.

Just saw this in Xanathar's Guide to Everything:



So my vote is to use that since it is an official source.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:12, Mon 08 Oct 2018.

As far as the warforged ability, there are a couple of things at play:

Under Warforged Resilience
You don't need to sleep and do not suffer the effects of exhaustion from lack of rest and magic can't put you to sleep.

Under Sentry's Rest
When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you unconscious, and you can see and hear as normal.

I believe the normal rules of long rest is no more than 2 hours of light activity and no less than 6 hours of sleep.

It appears to be that in order to gain the benefits of a long rest (spell replenishment, etc.) a warforged replaces the sleep portion with an inactive mode where it can see and hear, but doesn't move or do anything else. If he doesn't need to regain anything from a long rest, he can just go about his business as normal and not sleep with no ill effects.
This message was last edited by the player at 23:17, Mon 08 Oct 2018.

This is kind of last minute, but is anyone up for a skype game tomorrow night, like after 8:30? Emily has book club tomorrow and I normally end up watching tv when she is gone because it is late and I don't feel motivated to do anything else.

I will find out what day it will be next month and give more notice. It might always be like the third wednesday of the month.

did we ever get a ruling on starting level and gear for our new characters? i think my guy is pretty much done except for those things.

I think it will be best to start new characters at level 3.  In addition to the gear you start with at level 1 per PHB roll 4d4x30 gp and buy whatever you want with that, or just keep the gp.

So we are bringing in a wood elf monk played by Adam, and a warforged cleric played by Joe?

I don't want Storm King's Thunder to go away, but maybe we should switch to Questland for a bit (if Allan is up for it) and if Allan gets too busy, we can switch back. DMing is the most taxing and maybe what we need to do is have frequent switching.
What do you think?

In reply to Ratt (msg # 178):

Yeah, I feel pretty burnt out on it now.  A switch would be good for me.

So, is that a 'no' from Allan to dm and give Seth a break?

I am up to play F'aim or Psithur.

I am also up to DM, but I would like to try a homebrew system which I will explain if there is interest. The short version is that all rolls are super simple and everything is based on you six primary stats. There are no classes, but more so item-based and stat-based. The idea is that you decide how you are going to approach a problem or action, decide what stat you use for it, then roll. Attack/damage is resolved in a single roll. Defenses and hp are directly generated from stats.

Character creation would be a few minutes.

That sounds interesting. I'll hear more about this thing.

Yeah, honestly I'd be up for forum play but I'm probably in a similar position as others where there just is not enough trust to expect smooth play. The anticipation of conflict is to discouraging. I'm still not sure what i can get out of forum play so I'm simply hanging in there. Learning a new system, while always interesting, probably won't work at my level of commitment.

It boils down to the six primary abilities (str, dex, con, etc.), hp, and three types of defenses. The HP and defenses are generated directly from the primary stats. All your stats start between 0-3 and you add them directly to your rolls which are made with FATE dice (or "fudge" dice, as they are sometimes called). The dice are 6-sided with the faces being -1, -1, 0, 0, 1, 1, the average being 0. All rolls are made by throwing four dice, so the result ranges from -4 to 4.

https://fate-srd.com/fate-core...math-behind-the-dice

Every action will come down to rolling the dice, adding your stat and comparing it to a DC or AC. If you exceed the DC or def, you succeed. Higher rolls will yield better results.

To use the example of attacking, you can use any stat to attack as long as you can make a case for it (my goal is to not say 'no' so much that other players might step in and say, "I don't think that makes sense"). Hitpoints are a composite of physical, mental, and emotional health or fortitude, as well as luck. So, you can attack by swinging a sword or intimidating someone. Once their hp is depleted, they are defeated, the manner of which is defined by the 'killing' blow. So, you if you intimidated someone, they give up, or run away. If you persuade someone, they cooperate, if you hit them they may be killed or knocked out, etc.

Let's say you are fighting someone who has the following stats:

Str: 3
Dex: 0
Con: 1
Int: 0
Wis: 1
Cha: 2

HP: 6 (str+dex+con+int+wis+cha)
Physical AC: 3 (str+dex)
Magical AC: 1 (con+int)
Emotional AC: 3 (wis+cha)

You decide to attack with a punch, so you would roll and add your str and compare that to their Physical AC (PAC). If you roll a total of 4, you will damage the guy for 1 point of damage (roll - PAC). That's pretty much the end of the story.

Every level you can add +1 to one of your stats, with some limitations, namely no more that +1 to any stat every four levels. So, after 20 levels, the most you can add to any stat is +5 (once each between lvls 1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, 17-20).

"Classes" will not exist and will be defined more by play and items. If you want to be a fighter, wear armor and carry weapons. If you want to be a mage find wands and spellbooks. My conception of spells is that if you have a spellbook or wand that lets you cast something like Prestidigitation you can attempt anything with that basic flavor. Or with a wand of Fire, you can shoot firebolts, or cause something to erupt, or heat metal by poking it, or whatever. Just roll, add int and "poof". In the case of direct damage roll will be compared to Magical AC (MAC). In other cases, like causing something to ignite, a DC will have to be defined, something like 0 for a stack of dry papers and 5 for a stack of wet branches.

Items will provide a bonus to certain types of rolls or ACs and will look something like this:

Dagger
+1 str* or dex*

Magic Battle Axe [pre-req: Str 1]
+3 str*

Helmet
+1 PAC (Physical AC)

Breastplate [pre-req: Str 2]
+2 PAC

Wand of Fire [pre-req: Int 2]
+1 int fire spells
Allows user to cast a fire spell 1/day

Holy Symbol [pre-req Wis 2]
+1 Wis*
+2 Wis vs undead
Allows user to cast light spell 3/day

Lockpicks [pre-req: Dex 1]
+1 Dex to open locks
Allows user to attempt to open locks

*would only apply to rolls that make sense, so for weapons it would always apply to attacks, but an axe would provide this bonus for chopping a door, a dagger to prying something up or cutting a rope or something. A pickaxe might provide its bonus to climbing or digging, etc. Anything that you can reasonably justify. They do not modify your base stats which then roll into hp and defenses.

The idea is to make everything more simple. One roll and a few numbers.

Part of the FATE system also involves things like creating advantages, which boils down to changing the environment for later exploitation (setting fire to a room, creating difficult terrain, blinding someone or making them dizzy, etc). The general idea is that creating some favorable condition will allow you or someone else to apply a +2 to a roll that would reasonably benefit from that condition. Because the distribution of FATE dice at the extremes become very improbable, a +2 is a big deal in cases where rolling a 3 or 4 will just barely let you succeed, which incentivizes alternate actions.

For instance, if you are fighting something with defenses in the 5 range and you can only muster a +3 to your rolls, you only damage when rolling a 3 or higher (6.17% chance). If you can give yourself or someone else a +2, your odds improve by about 32%. The things you do to improve conditions can have any conceivable difficulty, so you look to the environment or situation to find things that are relatively easy to do.

I think a shortcut would be something like trying to trip an opponent rather than damage them directly, so, maybe I would use only their dex for a DC instead fo their PAC (str+dex). Being prone would give someone else a +2 to their roll. Generally speaking, such bonuses can only be exploited once or twice before going away. I would also say that opponents would get wise to certain maneuvers, so you couldn't spam the same actions without the DC rolling in their normal defense.

An analog to a mental/emotional attack would be instead of doing 'intimidation' damage you try to goad someone to distract them, thereby attack only cha and providing a subsequent +2 for someone else.

Instead of generating or picking scores we can also do something like Race/class/background, each of which provides a set bonus (like con for dwarves or dex for elves) and a free stat that you can put anywhere.

Or roll 1d4-1 and re-roll the set if it doesn't add up to at least 8 (which is a little less than just picking). Otherwise, something like an array of 3,2,2,1,1,0.

If we do this we can introduce 'stunts' which would be a bonus you can use on a specific type of action a limited number of times. In the FATE system these are based on character aspects which might be described as, "smashing is always an option". So if you do something with that basic sentiment, which I would extend to "smashing a dialogue, or smashing a polite dinner party" in the sense that you do something unexpected and confrontational or destructive in the generic sense, then you can apply that bonus. The idea is to live out your character traits.

There is a little more nuance with fate points, but I don't think we need to incorporate that.

Or, if you want to do 5e...

I am going to fast forward Seth to a campaign I have mostly sketched out. If anyone wants to join his level 2 wizard go to Dryad's Curse.

link to another game

You are welcome to make a level 1 character, or bring a previously used character of your choosing.

Level: 1
Race: Any dnd published races.
Class: Any dnd Published class or class option (including alternate ranger).
Stats: 4d6 drop lowest, arrange to desire. After rolling you may choose point buy instead.
Hit points: 1st, 2nd, 3rd level max, roll thereafter. After rolling you may choose "Book average" (HD/2+1). You may do this separately for each level.
Background: Feel free to make one up using the guidelines in the book.

In reply to Ratt (msg # 183):

I like the idea of no classes.  I also like the idea of rolling something with a bell curve shape like 4d3-8 rather than 1d20 (which is flat).

4d3-8, clever. Yeah, that is the probability of FATE dice. In the rpol dice roller you can choose FUDGE dice in one of the drop downs, but then you have to add modifiers afterward.

But if you have a modifier, like str +3 for an attack, you can roll 4d3-5.

Theoretically, we can just add 8 to everything and use a 3d4 distribution, but I like the idea of the baseline being 0 instead of 8. I think it makes generating challenges more intuitive.