Also, what happens if I just scream? Isn't that a free action?

I'd give all the sleeping characters a +1 to waking, it might help to startle them awake.

Um you know those aren't the normal rules for sleep right?

To cite realism that's like saying a normal person has a 70% chance of sleeping through a 6 second long air horn. Almost no one can sleep through that.

So magical sleep is a special case where you can't wake on your own due to sound.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sleep/
In that case a standard action out of combat automatically wakes someone unless your strength bonus (or dex with finesse) plus BAB is less than 0.

Normally perception rules take over. The official DC to wake up because a thief is sneaking up on you is just their stealth check +10. Maybe +2/5 if it's noisy.

So there's not an official number for shouting but there is for normal conversation and whispering. Normal conversation is DC 10, whispering DC 25. If you assume shouting vs talking is similar to talking vs whispering you should be looking at DC -5 to notice someone is shouting. I'd probably assume large shouting is just as unstealthy as large stealth so DC -9 seems about right. Which would mean a shouting large sized giant would wake everyone within 190ft, and alert everyone within 290ft-440ft which kind of makes sense. The upper end assumes understanding vs noticing are the same gap as conversation to whisper. I ignored that for sleeper because without context most people don't wake to every bump in the night.

Now it would make sense for startled awake characters to be fatigued/exhausted and prone, flatfooted and dazed when they first wake up. That means a savvy enemy could decimate a group that's caught like that. Starting dazed means the flatfooted and prone conditions can't be fixed, during the first round. So likely you're talking about surprise round, round recovering from daze, and then normal combat still prone and unarmed.

The main point for me though is unless there's special circumstances like a fairy curse I'd expect any house rules used against us this time, to also be applied when we catch our enemies sleeping. And if the rules you're providing are used I'd definitely be taking advantage of that, because it makes night raiding completely over powered.

Its a sliding point of alertness.

How quickly does a person go from 'asleep' to alert enough to pick up a sword and fight without penalties?

A combat round is six seconds.

While everyone in the area might hear her yell, if you're in a deep sleep, it might take a little bit of time for it to register for you to get to wakefulness.

That's why the DC rating for a sleeping character to 'wake' for no apparent reason was so high.  You're going from a sound sleep to alert that something in the area isnt right.  Does it happen in stories, sure all the time, so if the character has a really high perception stat, they might sense something is off.

---

If a thief was sneaking up on anyone, it would be an opposition of skill checks.  The thiefs stealth vs the victims perception.  If the victim was fast asleep, the thief might have a situational bonus of +10, again if they're in a field of crunchy leaves they may not and it might be reduced... to say +2 / +5, as you say.

There is ... normal conversation before combat.  Brigitte was having a conversation with Maybelle and Victoria.  While the character might hear the conversation and treat it simply as background noise and stay asleep.

So... let's say a favored relative is asleep on the couch during a family get together.  People continue conversation in the background and he sleeps through it.  A loud arguement breaks out.  They may... or may not acknowledge it as background noise, if they dont and they stir to wake, how quickly does it take them to realize that two of his cousins have gotten into an arguement and are now wrestling in the livingroom a few feet from them.  How quickly before they stir off the couuch to breakup the fight?


Brigitte is fully alert, and 'just' noticed something.  She has half a round to act, per house rules.

How much time would be realistic for someone to go from a state of sleep to action without penalty would be fair?

The worse rolls to wake at the start were Gar and Rifnox at DC 28.  This is during 'preparation'.  Before combat is even started.  If they roll and fail their surprise round save, the roll drops to 24.

They now get to roll again, during the 'surprise' phase.  Presume they fail again, the roll drops to a 20.  This is when the sound of combat might be expected to start.

It drops to a 16 at the first round, if they fail

It drops to a 12 at the second round, if they fail.

It drops to a 8 at the third round, if they fail...

Keep in mind, if they fail, but by a margin that would have passed without the ten penalty for being asleep, the difficulty rate drops twice as fast....

etc... etc... etc...

It's all boring math...

On the round that characters first 'notice' they're in combat they get a standard action (as opposed to a full one).  There are no penalties involved, you simply have the action to use, and the following round is 'normal'.

It is possible... to go the dazed... exhausted... fatigued... status effects to simulate wakefulness but that just feels more complicated and requires the players all be aware of the differences between the three and how they're being applied.  While it's all good and well to presume that everyone knows them, its been my experience (that when i occasionally use them) that it's not the case.

Rather than just go through the complicated process of establishing conditions for each individual characters state, and their improvement through it, or any penalty for being half awake, i just use the system i use.

If Brigitte 'YELLS', and you fail your check, while you heard it, you might have ignored it... if you didnt ignore it, you might be too 'dazed' or 'sleepy' or what not to act on the warning.  Regardless... your combat status has not changed from prone and helpless to combat ready.

If fail your check, and you want to roleplay dazed wakefulness to her yell of warning.  I can get behind that, but your character wont have an action (not even a free one), till they make the check.


If it makes you feel any better, the encounters are actually 'balanced' based on this system of waking up, so if it makes you feel any better the encounter 'monster' is a lower threat rating because a notable part of the party is asleep has been factored in.

House rule for simplification is cool. Just means normal people take between 36 second for exhausted and just fallen into deep sleep to 6 second, about to wake up anyways to awaken from sleep. People sleeping are vulnerable to a rush of force, I'm sure we'll be able to exploit that at some point. The only point I'd "fight" you over is if we had different waking up rules than our opponents, because that sort of situation just isn't fair. Every GM's "house" ends up with it's own rules.

From my LARP experience sleeping in character with a boffer dagger next to me in bed I'd say sleeping in armor sucks way more than pathfinder seems to think, and waking up enough to stab the NPC bothering you while you're trying to sleep is way easier than they imagine, though getting enough sleep is also harder than they make it. *shrug*

all games know that the 'rules' and 'reality' are often far apart to varying degrees.

I try for realistic and simple whenever possible, and yes sleeping critters are pretty vulnerable to ugly things like 'coup de grace' and what not...

I take it that sleeping character will not have any armor on.

Sleeping in light armor shouldn't be a problem,medium and heavy are

I have no armor so I am just asleep in my robes.

Ditto. Except, you know, without the robes part. But some kind of era appropriate sleepwear to preserve modesty!

In the field 'traveling clothes' is appropriate sleep wear unless you specify otherwise.

Brigitte did get into her armor, as noted from your post when she goes on guard duty.

If player turns are in, will make an effort to post after dinner an update.

Oh right! Forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me!

Gar has a medium armor and a Light armor. The light is for sleeping and stealth.

This is why I emphasized Maybelle planned to sleep in her armor.

How do we do movement through occupied square? Or asked another way, can I move into melee range over Andrew and others?

I believe standard rules presume you're allowed to travel through FRIENDLY areas but you may not end your movement in their square.

Currently, there is no reason to contradict this rule for this encounter.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:39, Fri 08 Mar 2019.

Weekend, no update today cause i want peeps to enjoy their weekend.

Also... waiting on maybelle and Victoria to post actions.

If they get turns up by tomorrow will update then, if not will aim for Monday.

So, Gar having made his wakeup check, has a Standard action next turn? Has anybody made an attempt at identifying the threat?

In reply to Fate (msg # 586):

Sorry for the delay

Sorry for long delay

Maybelle, roll 2d4+1 to determine how many hit dice your spell affects.

In reply to Fate (msg # 589):

18:45, Today: Maybelle rolled 8 using 2d4+1.  Calm Animals.

Right, just got a proper post up, and figured i owed an explanation for anyone interested in hearing one.

Longer time players are aware that i do some commercial freelance art work for a few e-authors on the web.  All good and fine for making some pocket change doing something i enjoy doing.

That is... till my memory stick with my working files went bad, taking over 100 gigs of custom textures and designs that werent backed up with it.  Memory sticks have no moving parts, so i figured they wouldnt go bad, i've had some for over a decade and while they're tiny in comparison and pretty useless, they still work.

Any ways... i was in the midst of recovery of this mess, and got a new project dropped in my lap that would have been okay if the stick was intact, but now required me to generate all the lost information quickly for the project.

There was also some drama with my hubbie, over my anniversay (he forgot it, UGH!), so i was pretty put off and distracted with stuff to be able to review stuff and post here.

Anyways... i think the worst of it is over now.  Will try and get back to posting regularly, and cut players a huge degree of slack if they're slow to post over the next few days/weeks.  Also just presumed everyone made their wake up checks at this point and can act on the next turn as compensation for your patience.

absolutely hate this color scheme so i'll be avoiding rpol today.  (sorry)

Weird, I saw it last night, but it looks normal for me now.

Perhaps that's the joke?

Dunno, it was bright green all day for my yesterday which hurt my eyes.

Back to normal this morning though.