Eh, I suppose. Still, doing a side job and breaking into an apartment whose occupants we don't know instead of waiting around a corner screams unnecessary risk to me. I understand the sentiment of wanting to be prepared, and like I said, I've been playing SR since the early 90's, so I sort of know that paranoia can come in handy, but for this particular situation, not in general, it seems waaaay over the top in addition to being a risky move.

Objectively, we stand to lose more than we stand to gain from this particular move, because what we gain is the probably-not-necessary backup my character doesn't need to complete the objective and breaking into an unvetted apartment introduces, well, an unknown number of unknowns that make the paranoid aspect of me itch furiously. You guys have been telling me that this is being done so that you guys can be prepared, but in turn you're sort of forcing my character into lying to them- he can't legitimately claim that he's there to help and to keep them safe if he's got spirits following him around to harm them if they try anything, drones flying around outside to ventilate them if they try anything, and a decker jacked in nearby to combat them in their area of expertise if they try anything. Duck may as well bring a gun in and knock on the door with it.

Sure they might not know, if everyone gets where they need to be successfully, which happens to be an if of unmeasurable magnitude. Also, Duck knows, and since he's going to be attempting to be sincere approach, he's incredibly irritated that the team wants to risk that in order to breathe down his neck. Ever see Ocean's 11? There's a reason the talkers operate on their own while the ops people do work completely separate from them on most occasions- it'll blow cover, just like any of you guys making a misstep of getting a botched roll on this yet again only minimally helpful at best side-op would blow Duck's cover and potentially compromise the whole op.

Right now, as it stands, the team's insistence on it is perceived as not helpful, rather intrusive to his methods, and another instance of backseat driving. He's made the point before that he doesn't take kindly to anyone telling him how to do his job, and to him, this is worse, since instead everyone seems to be expecting him to fail at it.

In other words, the other team members in this instance are actually increasing the chances that my character will be put in danger by taking a risk that's had very little estimation. Sorry, all we know is that the targeted apartment is empty, and that's it. If a problem arises, it's going to hit you with a BIGTIME sense of underestimation. By having multiple angles of attack planned out and by waiting on these guys to show any aggressive actions before the jaws clamp down on them, you're increasing the chance that something unfortunate will happen to the target. While trust may take awhile to establish, Duck has already shown his capabilities in negotiation to the party, and he hasn't messed it up. He's insistent on doing it himself, that he needs minimal cover, and the team is basically giving him the impression that he can just fuck off by steamrolling through him and doing it anyway.

Either way, what's done is done I guess, and now I've got to play it forward. As a player, I fail to see any wisdom, good instinct, or merit to what the rest of the team is up to. Duck can't really see it either. I don't mean any personal offense by it, and I'm not personally offended, but it's kind of exhausting trying to explain to you guys that this particular maneuver introduces more risk into the situation and harms more than it helps, regardless of whether Duck succeeds or fails. That factor seems to be presently ignored in favor of paranoia. That's all I'm going to say on this issue unless asked. It's been made pretty clear at this point that I'm not getting through and I don't know how else I can explain how I'm seeing things. :/

Getting through a lock and disabling an alarm are quantifiable risks.  I suppose it's possible that the next door apartment will turn out to belong to a super-paranoid BTL pusher with security up the wazoo, but on the balance of probabilities, that's less likely than the pair we're visiting will check the security cameras for the whole building (which likely won't extend into the apartment but will certainly cover the hallways) and/or will pose a threat.

I think this is a case where we just have different threat assessments.  You see going one on two against two unknown and likely hostile individuals as low-risk because your character is set up to do that.  We see breaking into an unoccupied apartment in a run-down building as being low risk because a couple of the characters involved are designed to do that (and have the material to do it).  Both have potential risk.

From an IC perspective, I'm not sure a pure soft approach where you not only go in claiming to be a friend but actually *intend* to be a friend is on the table.  Copperhead is used to a space where force talks and if someone balks, you force their arm up a little higher behind their back (figuratively speaking).  Her perspective is that having a show of force to back up the friendly overture is likely to be important.  And OOC, it just clicked with me that you really are wanting to make this a totally friendly encounter.  My instinct says that's super-risky but I'll grant that it does have a bigger potential pay-off.

I think part of the issue is we got into the nitty gritty aspect of planning without settling on overall approach - make friends or show of force.  And thus we've been arguing the details from very different perspectives of how we're looking for this to go down.

It's true we've seen you with the Johnson and we've seen you work in an environment where the subject didn't have much choice but to comply.  But we haven't seen you walking up to a door hiding two surprised hostiles with your cahones hanging out.  That feels a little unnatural to Copperhead (and to me).  On the other hand, breaking into a known empty apartment is less stress than deciding what Nutrasoy packet to make for dinner.

I'll drop it too, but next time, we can perhaps work to agree on general objectives before we dig into tactical specifics and perhaps save writing and reading quite so much on this thread :>  (And not suggesting you weren't clear about what you were trying to do - I was just coming at it from a different perspective that what you were aiming to do didn't click and we never really got to arguing about that overall objective part.)

You're right about him being a diva and all, but a diva isn't just a diva because they're particular, it's because they're particular AND very good.
This message was last edited by the player at 17:33, Sat 02 Apr 2016.

And yeah, no hard feelings on whatever you guys' characters decide. I'm not sure I'd be willing to roll up another character for this one, since I put quite a bit of work into fully fleshing him out, but if he isn't compatible and the other characters can't give him any ground whatsoever, this whole thing is going to play out like a failed marriage I.C., and since I like you guys, I'd rather pull him out before the very thing I'm concerned about happening occurs and you guys start to dislike me personally.

Divas might be very good, but that doesn't mean they'll be popular with those who have to work with them.  I don't think it'll be necessary to roll up a new character.  Once White Duck has learned that having backup is sometimes useful and once the others have learned how to give Duck sufficient working room while still fulfilling their roles, the tensions should subside.  So long as we want things to work OOC, we can figure out ways to make things work IC.  I don't think there's anything irrevocably different in terms of character desires.  It's not like we have a drug addict and an anti-drug campaigner or a cleptomaniac and a straight-shooting LoneStar cop or a blood-thirsty serial killer and a pacifist.  We just have a situation where team members haven't figured out what everyone's grove is and how best to work together.  That's manageable with time, experience and the right driving events.  I'm sure Papa will throw us ample opportunities to save each other's hoops.  (Provided we manage avoid being so disfunctional we lose them instead :>)

So who was who, again?  I'm fairly certain I was the pacifist! ;)  Oh, how I miss being the pacifist!  :D  I don't remember if we had a cleptomaniac in the group before!
This message was last edited by the player at 05:34, Mon 04 Apr 2016.

Wasn't necessarily pointing to actual occurrences.  At least not for all of them :>

Wait, that reminds me, 'I' was the clepto of the group....as well as the serial killer.

Thaden was the anti-drugs and pacifist.

Sean was the drug addict.

Lonestar cop?  I think it was Ronin or someone...

Responding to Noruas's OOC question here:

I think White Duck's deciding whether to go back up with some excuse to pump them a bit more and to hopefully find a way to keep track of them in the unlikely event we need them again.  (We could have him plant a tracker, but I'm really not sure they're worth it.)  He may be waiting to see if anyone else has questions to raise.  Or he might just be trying to get healthy :>

Copperhead's waiting to hear back from her fixer (and your former fixer) whether Freya's still alive and where she might be (may be easier to roll her after her fixer left her for dead - assuming she isn't).  And also to find out if it's possible to set up a meet with Cooperman.

Dealing with Cooperman is going to be challenging.  It's strongly against his business interests to out his client.  Or double-cross him.  And my read is that taking any "assertive action" against a fixer in the Shadowrun universe without cause is frowned upon.  Sort of creates a disincentive for anyone to give you work.  So the best we can likely do is get information - and that's going to cost.  If anyone's got a way of connecting with someone with the Blood Rumblers to get more intel, that might work.  In theory we might acquire some sort of artifact he's interested in, though I wouldn't pursue that angle without really good intelligence he actually wants it.

If anyone's got corp or financial contacts, it'd be good to get a read on the relationship between Manns and Junior and the ramifications of the Friday shareholder meeting.

Do you mean Manes and Junior?  Looks like we'll have to wait until daybreak again if we wanna get more info, since most corp and financial people need their beauty sleep. (Me, included.)  BTW, just as a reference for my next move, what day and time is it in-game?
This message was last edited by the player at 05:02, Tue 05 Apr 2016.

I'm guessing it's now around 9 or 9:30am on Wednesday - and we haven't slept.  We've got 48 hours.

That means I gotta leave you guys and head for my day job.

Feel free to identify alternatives.  Noruas, not sure what makes the most sense for you.

Cliff Notes version of the what I need to know?

We're going to a street doc clinic where the wounded mage is holed up.  We've got an invite for me and I can probably bring one more.  Need our mage to keep the other mage from causing problems.  We don't yet have the ability for you to make a wireless connection from within the van (and the timeframe for acquisition means we wouldn't be able to get one in time to be useful), so I'm not sure what works best.  You can come in physically as additional back-up.  You can twiddle your thumbs in the van.  We can drop you at a coffin motel with decent connectivity and you can monitor things from there.  You can make a tap in a back alley and lie under a tarp and hope no-one notices you.  (Not advocating that last one :>)  You may have other ideas.

I think I'll find something to do once we get there.  But I'll probably need to surveil the location first and see if there's any other way I can help out.

K.  Sounds like we're now ready for a description of what we see when we show up :>

Maybe we can pool what we know about the female mage here. Having a good body of knowledge going in will help in questioning/directing the conversation here.

When you say she is a mage, it implies that she is a hermetic magician, correct?  Do we know this for sure, and do we know anything more specific about the type of magic she uses?

We were told she's a street mage.  That typically means hermetic, but we probably don't know for sure.  (And I'm not sure that Copperhead would draw the distinction.)  We know very little about here.  I could probably have gotten more info about her, but I didn't.

Cool.  I just wanted to make sure I hadn't missed something before I had Caduceus assume one way or the other.

It's entirely possible there's at least one magically active individual on staff.  The warded room would suggest that.

Hrmm, there's a warded room? Not sure when that was posted but my guess is that it's the mage/shaman we're looking for. Depends on whether it's a patient room or a staff room though.

Mending the Shadows#24

Caduceus did an astral sweep.  Our target isn't anywhere else, so by elimination, she must be there.  It's a patient room  You've got directions and a description of the building layout.  There's only 6 other rooms, so it shouldn't be too hard to pop over when you're done your "consult".

Roger that. My money's on it being the target.