You make a fair point, Magnus. I hadn't actually meant taking away Arcane Magic, but it does need to be explicitly indicated. I shall edit the relevant post.

How about making Here I am! have additional modifiers like so:
Alerts all beings - +5 bonus
Alerts all beings which have a Magic Bias of at least 1@1 (or other number? Whatever number indicates a Mage) or higher - no further modifier
Alerts all beings of a specific type, such as demon, angel, human, and so on - no further modifier
Alerts all beings of a specific type which possess Magic Skills - -5 from the bonus
Alerts all beings of a specific alignment - no further modifier
Alerts all beings of a specific alignment which possess magic skills - +5 bonus

Ah-ha. With a set alignment, that will really help. How about those who do not acknowledge gods at all? Are they automatically neutral, or does it go off of outlook?

Anywho, since there are three alignments, that makes it 1/3 as effective if it only affects one, but since you will pick the most beneficial alignment which renders the limit not as limiting, I would go with a +10.

two posts

quote
4. Open Door: If the target has been hypnotized, this opens a door for this magic. And such doors are hard to close.
/quote

This one is a bit confusing. Is it saying that you must first use some other method, such as a different spell, for the spell to work? In that case it is a simple roll that must be passed to make this one work, so it is +10 SM for prior skill use.

The bit about hard to close doors. Is it talking about the fact that once the target is hypnotized and you can get this bonus, then the bonus itself making the skill more effective is why the 'door is hard to close'? In that case, is this bonus restricted to mental magics? Because I can hypnotize a target to stand still while I fireball him, making it harder to dodge, but this bonus seems exclusively mental, and I'm not sure why.

Thoughts?

It is more about mental magic, although you could fit other magics in.

Its...

Jack the Verser dropped into a trance to cast the spell needed to breathe the incredibly thin air as he climbed the Angel Heights Mountains.  But, even as he walked, he feared, and his fear was justified for a diablic, an anarchic spirit that haunted the heights, saw him, and struck out at him with a spell of Pain.

And Jack's mental defenses were nil, so that he had only his unaided willpower to fight back against the onrush of magically inspired agony.  He dropped to his knees wailing, and the diablic came forward to enjoy a fine meal...

That seems more like an inherent character weakness, or damage to the mind caused by some other effect. As it stands, it seems more like "This mental magic is stronger because the foe is weak/not ready for it".

The modifiers for "Here I Am" look fair.

I would say that the alignment of someone who doesn't acknowledge gods depends of their general outlook and actions. Someone who is genuinely helpful and kind would probably be considered Alliance Because his action fall in line with them. Just like someone who kills everyone he meets would probably be considered Anarch.

4 Open door.
It sounds to me like the Trance skill(could be magic or psionics depending on what they mean by mental magic.) Provides a bonus to mental magic in exchange for a bonus to mental magic used against you.

Admittedly you could extend it to a bonus to all magic used against you.
Hmm... I need to think about the value of this defect.

Just so it is clear, I do intend to go through each and every one of these on the list, and then compile a new list which includes all the modifiers. I hope you are willing to help me out on them all the way through XD

I will skip number 4 for now, although if you give me details on this "Trance skill" I may be able to write it up.



So this effect says that it only works on someone who has behaved in a certain manner?

I believe that this one needs to be more specific, or perhaps be split into multiple specific effects. For example, if the child does not believe the Pastor has authority over him and so does not obey, is he still considered 'disobedient'? What if the Papa also does not believe that the Pastor has any authority? What if the Papa thinks the Pastor has no authority over Joe so tells Joe not to listen to him, but Joe obeys the Pastor anyway? Is he now disobedient to his Papa?

Basically, we have to define the disobedience from a given perspective. Disobedient from the perspective of Joe, the Authority Figure, the Society, or the Caster? Once that is defined we can define the limit.

We also have to define the time frame. For how long after the disobedience can the magic work? I have no idea how to sit mod this part, so I will leave it open for now.

If it can be any of those, I would go with the following:

The Society: +2. This bonus isn't worth much, because it is so broad. I would increase the bonus if it needs to be something that almost everyone in that world agrees on, and decrease it if just a small insular society thinking that way is enough. This bonus might change in communities which are more relaxed or more strict than 'usual'. A kid setting a house on fire for fun is probably naughty, but a kid accidentally knocking a lamp over to set the house on fire probably isn't...but some societies might still think it is. Now set up a situation where that logic applies to authority figures, and you have this bonus.

The Caster: Variable. It depends on the outlook, perhaps the alignment, of the caster. In this case, 'Disobedience' needs to be defined from the casters perspective, by the player controlling that character. This one is more difficult. I would define it from the alignment and roleplay of the character, and give the skill a set bonus of +5...when it can work ^^.

The Authority Figure: I think variable sit mods based on the situation, added at the time of casting, works best here. +1 for an unreasonable Authority Figure that demands things the person cannot feasibly do. +2 for one that is otherwise abusive. +5 for one that is reasonable and kind.

The Target (Joe): This is my favorite, thematically. It means the magic homes in on the feelings of the target, that feeling of 'I've been bad'. As such, it should probably be alignment based. Only if the target believes that they have defied someone who has authority does it work. I would go with a set bonus of +5, with variable time that the window is open based on roleplaying and general alignment.
This message was last edited by the player at 22:45, Tue 08 Apr 2014.

This is based on some sermons I've heard that a person is protected to some degree by being under the umbrella of authority.

I'd say the viewpoint was that universe's Reigning Power and the Power that the character worships with the second taking primacy.

These are hard and fast rules, rather like the vampire cannot enter a house without permission from someone inside.  The Wicked Witch CANNOT summon a child, unless the child is in violation (and probably sustained violation) of the Rules.

A conscience based limit is good too.

Maybe number 4 could be a Altered Mental State dependent thing?

Ah, I see what you mean Eric. In that case, it is the purview of some kind of god or energy force which has laws, be they laws of conscious or some other reason that ithe world works that way. In that case, the laws of said world need to be set down, similar to the bit in the 'determined by caster' thing I wrote out.

I did get that it is an absolute limit, yes. It's just that the amount of time AFTER violation that the magic can affect the one who broke the Rules determines the rest of the value of the bonus. I was hoping it would balance out well that way. So...the bonuses I wrote are basically half the bonus, because there is another element. Any ideas on how to deal with that second bit?

6. Trance: The caster must alter her state of mind to match a specific mind state in order to cast spells. This typically goes with concentration.

Sooo...what, must Alter Mental State with a separate roll? If it is a separate skill roll, that was +10 as I recall.

7. Solitude: Magic can only be cast in complete solitude from other sentients.

This one is a bit odd. But, as with all of them, we need to define solitude to define the bonus.

Does it mean no sentients within a certain range?
Does it mean that the caster must not be aware of any sentients nearby?
Does it mean no sentients on the same world?
Could it be any of these, with a different bonus for each?

Yes, on the separate skill roll, but its also going to have the Full Body Involvement because a man in some sort of trance isn't really doing normal things.  (you could have some sort of running trance, or car driving trance which would be worth less).  Its also going to have a More Time Used bonus because you have to get into a trance.

There might be a bonus for items like a campfire or other fire source to use as your focus for the trance.

=======================

It is a bit odd.  I had a bit of throw mud at the wall in this list.

That said....

Nemura the shaman purified himself with thrice boiled water, and with a beating with pine needle branches.  Thus purifed, he went up from his lodge to the mountain rim to await the dawn, clad only in his ceremonial robe.  Once there, he stripped, and waited cross-legged, drifting into trance.  Here, he was alone, and the thoughts and concerns of men were far from him, and the need for modesty was gone as he waited for his gods to speak with the dawn....

It could be any of these with a different bonus.  Also there is a chance, which I've read in some stories, of an eavesdropper not spoiling the magic, but causing punishment on their own self.

"Nemura, faithful one, you have your advice on how to guide your tribe, but one among your tribe has disobeyed.  Come forth, Ranik!"  And an angry Ranik the Smith came out of the bushes to stand before the glowing figure of light.  "Because you, in your pride, sought what was not yours, you sought to see what you should not, your eyes are taken from you.  You shall be blind."  And Ranik fell clawing at his eyes, crying out in great terror.

Hmm...

So, +10 for altered mental state, then use the rules for changing time taken for that aspect of the bonus, and then an additional bonus for Full Body Involvement, however much that is.

I don't think additional time taken is an intrinsic part of the skill. I think that the time taken aspect is part of the skill used to enter an Altered Mental State, which means the time bonus is applied to that skill instead. But I could be wrong there.
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If the person watching does not spoil the magic, then there is no bonus. If the person receives a punishment as part of the magic with no need for a separate spell roll to administer the punishment, then the roll would actually be penalized for benefit without cost. Maybe -5, since it does require they eavesdrop first.

If there can be no sentients within a certain range, we need to define a list of ranges and their bonus.

If it is awareness of sentients that matters, I am inclined to give it a +5 and leave it at that.

If it requires a separate dimension entirely or a world with no sentients, the players will use it so rarely I am inclined to give it either a +15 or +20 bonus.

8. Sanctum: Magic can only be cast in the special, prepared grounds of a Sanctum. Frequently spells receive bonuses from the spells pre-woven into a sanctum, but this is not that. This spell requires a sanctum.

This one seems pretty straightforward. It requires the acquisition or creation of a Sanctum. That is either RP or a skill roll. It is probably a difficult one. That said, the Sanctum doesn't go away once made, so there is no extra skill roll for every spell use here. I am inclined to give a simple +5.

You might also have rules for desecrating a sanctuary.  Is it as simple as a non-believer entering in, or does it require more?

The Master Telekinetic grimaced as he slid on the metal skull net.  All his senses expanded, and now the mild reek of the barrels of toxic waste were so nauseating that he could barely stand.

"I begin now." He grunted.
"No, wait..." Said the helper, but the teke was past listening.
His mind reached out, and grasped the barrels, all nine of them, lifting them skyward.  And then before a word could be said, before a sniper bullet could impact the night watchman, he flung the putrid mass skyward in a great arc.

"YOU messed up! You were supposed to wait..." A flat bark of a sniper rifle rang across the harbor, and on the small island amidst the buoys and shipping lanes, a near human crumpled, his skull caved in.
"You will pay me what you owe me." The voice was stretched, weary and pained, but the 'helper' felt fingers crawling up his nose, circling his throat, plucking gently at his eyesballs, more fingers than a man has, but a teke has as many fingers as he wishes to have.
"Yes, yes, alright." And the Teke flung him down as the barrels of toxic waste fell down themselves to land on the Never Dying Shrine Fire.  The were, servants of Nature, abominated toxic waste, and so did the spirits they served.  Now, the Vancouver Were Pack would be without its spirit guardians until they found a way to cleanse their Sanctum.

9. Balance Magic: All forces are balanced, light and dark, cold and heat....use one, and an equivalent, but uncontrolled effect of the other will appear 1d4 rounds later.

For this one, the player and the GM should sit down and discuss what the Balance of a given effect is. After that, it is simple enough for the GM to have that effect occur later.

The issue is, what is the bonus worth? :L

Brock,
Here's a review of The Dying Earth by Jack Vance which was part of the basis of D&D magic.  Its got some interesting limits or quasi limits.

http://www.castaliahouse.com/r...-vance/#comment-3746

Alas, I do not have time to read it at this moment.

de nada.

I thought of an interesting and very broken idea.

Create a spell where one of the components is a human sacrifice, where the person being sacrificed will drop dead immediately as a component to your spell.

Use the spell in the presence of an enemy, whom you choose to sacrifice to succeed with your spell.

I would suggest making it a simple Will Power check for the victim to not be effected by the spell with a sit-mod in the victim's favor. Aside from potentially invoking Alliance deities' wrath, any suggestions on balancing a spell like this, where you use the sacrificial components on things that you don't own/can produce through other means?

Or would you suggest forbidding these kinds of spells, because the player character doesn't have possession over that life until the player character takes it him/herself?

That could be cool Krillis. Use the enemy general as a sacrifice in magic that wipes out his entire army.

Have you read 'Ameas rican Gods'? Not a great book,but it kinda has this.

In reply to Krillis(msg #35)
I personally wouldn't allow a player to kill an npc just by making him a sacrifice as a component to a spell. Think of how you would feel if a GM pulled that on you. Leaves a bad taste in your mouth right?(Generally it is a bad idea to kill someone important with no roll.)

Mind if you kill the general with a physical or magical attack, that counts as part of the ritual(as a +10 bonus for the need to roll another skill. and possibly another +5 bonus for the appropriateness if the spell was to slay his army(you are going to need it because the huge penalties to a spell like that.))

Slay at M13@10 gives you the same feel as you intended.

I would advise having that spell be a chain of sorts: the first part would need to be a magic that enervates the target for the duration of the sacrifice, thus meeting the technical requirements of "yours" (i.e. the general is completely under your power) and the second part would involve a petition with the Powers That Be to accept this life you are offering for a favor. Now, since Alliance doesn't see sacrificing your foe as a sacrifice, the forces accepting the sacrifice would have to be less discriminate, Anarch being likely. This means the effect of the spell, even if successful, will likely have some seriously nasty effects.

For example: the army you are trying to slay dies from their skeletons momentarily gaining undead sentience and deciding they want to leave their living fleshy prisons. The army is still alive when their skeletons want out. Anarch powers rarely kill cleanly, and this might require a sanity check of some kind, especially if you actually possess ethics and you realize what fell power you just unleashed for a momentary gain.

Short version: Hope it was worth it. (I'm open minded, maybe it was.)

That is seriously creepy. Well done.

I'd say you could do this spell, but then as Mentat has it, you have to go get the possession of the person.  The spell can be variable (those who die are a sacrifice to Odin) or absolute (all will die and will be a sacrifice to Ares).

The second has the problem that if the caster fails, the deity is likely perturbed at him.

The most lenient I would be would be to allow the player to try to claim them as property, which would be a very difficult contested will power check with sit-mods favoring the sacrifice if the sacrifice is unwilling.

And yes, if any part of it fails, the deity involved would take it in a bad way. If it were an arcane spell, I would remove the bonus, make it probably a negative sit-mod instead, and thus increase the likelihood of botching on the spell attempt.