Member

My goal is 50 magic limitations to try to offer a more flavorful magic. Because if its not laid out in front of people, they will tend to choose the most obvious choices. Give them a menu of choices, and their magic will get more varied.

I already dealt with this to some degree in a previous post, but I can't find it. So there will be some repeats.

Furthermore, I may be doing a lot of outlining which I can fill in later.

1. Bargaining. Forex: "Lord Ares, if you protect me from the Theban's arrows, I will sacrifice a golden arrow to your temple once I get back home."

2. Here I Am!: The caster's position is now known to everyone within a certain, specified distance who is sensitive to magic can sense you. Ranges vary from on the same street to the same county, same state, same continent, same world, and same universe. A special category which is a separate bonus is nearby dimensions.

Thus Caitlin Saunders,verser, Demon Slayer, and former Accountant from Earth casts her spell of Disintegration against a Foul Minion of the Shadow. In a neighboring dimension, a Hellworld, the Demon Grz'lak'nik wakes up to the smell of Power, and starts to track the spoor with his Hellhounds.

A further limitation is that the smell of magic does not leave you immediately. While close physical proximity to the caster's once location is the typical default, again greater ranges are possible.

Grz'lak'nik arrives ten minutes later on Earth with his hounds cloaked in a veil of invisibility. His hounds pick up the spoor, and he spots the smear where a foolish Minion challenged a Demon-slayer. He cackles grimly. He believes in the virtue of ambush. Caitlin will not be so lucky later tonight as he stalks her.

3. Same Alignment: The spell only works on those of the same alignment as the caster. Forex "The blessing of Gaia only affects those who love the Light."

4. Open Door: If the target has been hypnotized, this opens a door for this magic. And such doors are hard to close.

5. Umbrella of Authority: Forex: Joe had been disobedient to his Papa, the Policeman, and his Pastor. Now the Witch of the Woods who lives in a bubble universe with a gate in the thicket behind his school is able to cast Summon Child on him.

6. Trance: The caster must alter her state of mind to match a specific mind state in order to cast spells. This typically goes with concentration.

7. Solitude: Magic can only be cast in complete solitude from other sentients.

8. Sanctum: Magic can only be cast in the special, prepared grounds of a Sanctum. Frequently spells receive bonuses from the spells pre-woven into a sanctum, but this is not that. This spell requires a sanctum.

9. Balance Magic: All forces are balanced, light and dark, cold and heat....use one, and an equivalent, but uncontrolled effect of the other will appear 1d4 rounds later.

10. Wild Magic: The caster is able to generalize a wish, and then a GE roll is made. Based on that roll, and the skill roll, the GM tells the effect of the magic. Forex: "Sarah pulled up the slippery, strand of power from her chakra, and flung it into the world hoping that it would open the door that was locked so she could flee the mugger." GE 3: The door opens, and Sarah flees, and then it closes behind her, and locks. Any other door in front of her will do likewise. 15--It opens. 21--She blows a hole in the wall that can be used to escape. 30--She steps through the dooway into a bubble universe she just created.

11. Code of the War Wizard: The war wizard must follow the code, or lose his powers. He must practise daily, he must embrace the possibility of death for himself and his enemy, he must realize that truth is real, and that morality based on that truth requires action, even violent action. He must not shirk his duty.

12. Code of the Good Witch: She will do no harm to the undeserving by magic or physical action or by word. She will help the helpless who are in need. She will defend the Craft against unjust attacks.

13. Code of the Believer: He will harbor no sin in his heart. He will be obedient to God, and secondly to proper authority. He will promptly seek forgiveness from God, and from other people who he has unjustly offended. If he fails in this code, he will lose his prayer access to Heaven, although he is still a citizen of Heaven.

14. Three-fold Return: What you do with magic especially, come back to haunt you three-fold.

15. Limit of Mercy: If you cry to God to empower a weapon, and the target of that weapone pleads for mercy, you must grant it. See Tom Day granting mercy for the pschyopath Jay in his RPOL.net 'worldwalker' game.

16. Hand Over Control: The caster enters an unusual state of mind most of the time, and then hands over contol of your body and mind to a spirit. The spirit than casts the spell.

17. Fasting

18. Self-Flagellation

19. Twins: Some spells require two casters, others require that the casters be twins, or some form of opposed halves.

Forex: "At the end of the week of the Harvest Festival, the Priest, representing Father Sky and the Priestess representing Mother Earth in her aspect as the Crone, broke the binding on the north winds which allowed the rain-bearing, cold winds to come, and Winter to truly begin. This was necessary as the Cycle of Life, represented by Priest and Priestess needed renewing."

20. Some Deities Won't Listen: As hinted at in #19, where Father Sky needs a man to speak to him, and Mother Earth needs a woman to speak to her. There are also Male Secret's and Woman's Mysteries, and to dare to cast one from the other side is to dare the wrath of your deity.

21. Once and Never Again: Some spells can only be cast once by a particular person. A less restricting version would allow the spell to be only cast once in a particular universe.

22. The Time of the Casting is Now: Some spells can only be cast at a particular time which is often separted by great gulfs of time. This is typically used to release bindings, and anniversaries of the original binding are often the time of the potential release. This is usually an unwise spell to cast, but not always. Forex: "The Demon Lord Throatcutter and his minions are imprisoned in a dry well by the Sorceress Shandra. Once every hundred years, on the blackest night of the year, if the blood of an innocent human victim is dripped into the well, and the words of summoning in the Ancient Sumerian are shouted, then Throatcutter and his minions will be released to torment the Earth once more."

23. Sacrifice of Others: There is sacrifice, and then there is sacrifice of animals, and sacrifice of humans. Such sacrifice is generally unwilling, although more power is generated by a willing sacrifice.

24. Held Back Sacrifice: There is also sacrifice where someone thinks they are going to be sacrificed, and then at the last moment is spared, and another is inserted in his place. Forex: "The Case of Abraham and Isaac in the Old Testament which seems to signal Yahweh's dislike of human sacrifice, among other aims."

Forex: "The priests of Xorox, a harsh but just god, take initiates, and lay them out on an altar to be killed. Those who flee are banished from the order. The initiates are promised they will rise from the altar. A good deal of sermon follows as the priests attempt to use this moment to impress their beliefs about being reborn as a priest of Xorox means. And then the remaining initiates are released as new made priests."

25. Calm Heart: Casting requires calmness throughout, and emotional strains can cause checks to see if the magic fails.

26. Mental Focus: Casting requires concentration with a Difficult check at the beginning, and Simple checks at decision points along the way.

27. Caster Centered Magic: Magic does not adhere to a target. You cannot throw a fireball at someone, or cast an enchantment on someone. What you can do is clothe yourself in flames, and then touch them, or make yourself awe-strikingly beautiful, and then smile.

28. No Range Attacks: All magic is touch magic.

29. Hypnotic Trance for Caster: Casting requires that the mage place themselves into an altered state of consciousness where their willpower is temporarily reduced @5 thus making them suggestible.

30. Spells Fueled by Lifeforce of Caster: Spells may last as long as the caster likes, but for each five minutes of casting time the caster is required to make Simple Stamina check to continue. Failure may be blocked with a Difficult Willpower check.

31. Mana-Fueled Magic: Certain magics have the caster do a preliminary gathering of magical power in order to provide the oomph for the spell.

Forex: "Gregori the Mage walked the battlefield searching for the exact spot where the King of the Normarkans had fallen. Such a spot would be rich in mana, and he carried a Mana Trap. Already, he had found and drained the spot where the King had taken his first wound, but the spell he cast yesterday had taken all that Mana."

Typically, the Level of a spell from the skill charts is the number of Mana Points required by this system...if you're going to use Mana Points. Thus in order to cast Do Anything a 15@ skill, you might well require the mana from the King's deathground, and his first wound site, and the mana from a spot where two soulmates met for the first time.

Different worlds have different approaches to Mana. Some think that it is difficult to find as in the example above, and others think that it can be gathered and strained from the morning dew. In other words that it is a challenging chore, and not a minor quest to find it.

32. Invisible Magic: Magic is quiet. One does not shout, or cause fire to sprout from one's hands. Magic is subtle and quiet, but it can be unmistakably unnatural.

Forex: The old woman stood in the mud of the track facing the young knight and his party of bravos. They had come to her village as before to take sport with the young woman, and to thrash with their weapons the weaponless farmboys. Enough was enough, the old woman had decided. So she spoke a Word of Power under her breath, and the knight found himself fixed to the spot, and unable to move. Neither could any of his bravos move him.

He did not glow, nor did he fly, but he never moved for seven days until he died."

33. Magic is Unusual Luck Or So It Might Seem: A skeptic might not see it. An honest observer might feel the hair on his neck rise in the presence of magic because its obvious something weird is going on. But it could just be luck.

Forex: The Ranger Prince kissed his mother's ring, and walked out to the orc war party to demand their surrender. They responded treacherously as he expected. They filled the air with dozens of arrows. None hit him, which was....very lucky some said. He used the shock of it to convince the orcs to surrender.

34. Magic is Only Sacred: No one who is not initiated into a school of magic may see, touch, or experience magic without the magic losing its power. Opposing forces may experience it, as long as they are magicians themselves, but skeptics break the spell by their defiling presence.

Some traditions allow for the purification of the magic tools. Some traditions require that the purification be done with the defiler's blood.

35. Magic is an Unnatural Thing, and so the usage of such magic always rebounds to the detriment of the user.

Jonas Majeerle, verser, AC Tech, and Apprentice Mage opened the Black Book of Forbidden Spells while his master was out. He cast the first spell of entertainment and enjoyed a fine repast with beautiful waitresses, and the ghosts of famous men to converse with. Then he got up, and felt sick to his stomach.

He had a stomach flu.

Later as he ventured to the latrine, he tripped and fell down the hill.

Still later, he came in to see his master who was very angry with him. Inexplicably, he had forgotten to put up the Forbidden Book, and his master was aware of what he had done.

A bit humorous, but it gets the idea across. This is not 'no benefit to self'. Instead this is 'Magic is an aberration, and Nature hates it.'

36. Things Man Was Not Meant To Know: To learn magic is to risk your sanity. Every spell you cast threatens to take you further from the realm of normality, and into madness.

37. Magic is Pain, Horror, Corruption, and Madness: Only spells which degrade and terrify the caster can work if they have this limitation. The point of this limit frequently is to achieve pain in the caster's life. And since one tends to become blase' to shock and horror after a time, this means that increasing levels of suffering are demanded of the caster for the same effect.

38. Magic is to benefit others: If you use it to benefit yourself, the Universe will get revenge in creative ways. Generally speaking such limits do allow self-defense, but some do not. However, almost all of them allow one to kill monsters even if they are only threatening you at the moment because its assumed that they will be a threat to others later.

Forex: "The Lady Perilous, Sorceress Guardian of the White Order cast fire upon the demonspawn that boiled up in the demonpit in the basement of rancher house. The owner was behind her, a well-meaning magi, not intending to traffic in daemonic forces, but the Universe had rebuked him for his trying to rig the stock market with magic. It was a failing of young and untrained magi to seek a way to use that which was for the good of all, for themselves alone, which is why the Lady supported so strongly the creation of Mage Schools."

39. Magic Backed Up By Science: In order to cast a spell, you have to understand the physical processes you're trying to manipulate. In some cases, this allows the casting of much more powerful spells than before.

Forex: The Wizards of Wallingtree, a small trading center on the edge of the dessert, knew enough about wind to create sandstorms. But their visitor from another scientific reality understood the nature of the jet stream, and so he reached with his power, and pulled the jet stream to Earth, and scoured the enemy raiders from the face of the Earth. They had been expecting eighty mile per hour winds, and had prepared. But nothing they had done had prepared them for six hundred mile per hour winds as the jet stream slashed into their faces."

40. Magic vs. a Specific Target: Spells can be rigged to attack certain types of enemies more effectively. In some cases, spells are created that only effect a specific type of enemy, and do no damage to anyone else. What is not the concern of this list is the spell that might have some effect on one person, say a Scream spell, but will affect a specific monster devastatingly because they are vulnerable to loud noises.

Be cautious as overly specific spells can actually be beneficial.

Forex: "The vampire had grabbed the Red Cross worker, and held her in front of Paul St. Simon, Special Agent on the FBI's Undead Task Force. Paul smiled, and pulled out his vial of Unearthly Flames. The shattered, and the flames spread like a grenade, and the flames covered the both of them. The hostage screamed in fear, but in no pain as the vampire screamed in 'mortal' agony as it turned to ash."

41. Magic by a Specific Caster: Certain spells can only be cast by very specific individuals. Some magics bind the King and the Land he rules together so that health in one is health in the other. Other magics require a virgin. One common limit is 'not born of woman'.

I've used the last. It kinda sorta went like this....

Forex: "The Fimbulwinter Chest could only be closed by one not born of woman." The supervillain said with a smirk. "Its impossible for you to close it. The world will be covered by ice."

"Um, I'm not actually human. I was born of Chaos in interstellar space." The superhero replied....

42. Personal: One effect is the gaining of things that are personal. This goes several directions at once. Certain magics, such as Voodoo, require personal items to make the spell. Others require the True Name of the target. The True Name can be one of two things--an innate name that something has, perhaps gifted to it by Adam when that something was nameless, or by some other Namer. Or it can be a secret name which is held closely.

44. Roles must be respected: This is typically holy magic. The Prophet may not call down fire upon the Demon except in certain specific circumstances. Perhaps if the Demon manifests itself in its Hunting Form, a material killing machine, or if the Demon has been thrice rebuked by the Innocent, and it decides that instead of tempting the Innocent, that he will take the Innocent's cat hostage, then the Demon has stepped over his own boundaries, and may be dealt with by any means neccessary.

This is more common in worlds with strong codes of behavior and high magic, and potentially archetypical patterns are commonplace. It is a form of Armed Truce between the Host of Heaven and the Forces of Evil.

45. Magic is Crippling: Each spell casts cost in terms of stamina, and/or resistance. Frequently in such a world, the good guys have a serious problem as such magic allows for others to sacrifice for you.

Forex: "Gilandor the White stood leaning on his rod of power, old and white-haired, and not even half the age of his opponent who was full of health and vigor. It was because Viradn the Black had a sacrifice tied to his right hand. It was from her innocent body that he would draw the strength to cast the spells while he preserved his own health. She might well die of heart failure, but Viradn would ne'er touch his own health. Unlike Gilandor who figured he had one last fight in him before he had to retire. And that was if he was lucky, and ruthless. He struck fast as he could at the sacrifice to kill her, and take the fight to even terms, but it was not fast enough. This looked to be Gilandor's last fight for sure."

47. Uncontrolled Reactive Magic: You have magic which acts based on certain stimuli. You can't control it. For some, its the Full Moon, for others its Anger, and for others its the sight of a bird which throws their conscious mind into the bird.

Forex: "Joel Macross dodged the fire flung by the monstrous machine that tracked him. And as he rolled on the ground, he realized he really did not want to die. But it looked like there was no choice.

Might as well go out with style, he muttered to himself, and stood up to charge.

The machine was waiting for him, and fire launched at his chest. But it was met five feet away from Joel's chest by a bright, white light which took it, consumed it, and raced back along its path to its source. And there the white light took the demonic machine, and sucked it dry of energy leaving behind nothing but a rusty pile of metal that clanked in the breeze as it fell to the parking lot.

This had happened once before, Joel rememebered. He had always thought it had been a dream. There was a power in him, but it came out and did what it wished on its own terms. However, it did seem to have some desire to protect him, at least from demonic machines, anyways."

48. Magic is Illusion and Delusion: If you run through a fire unharmed, you're actually harmed. Your body is burnt, but you believe it not to be true, and so you don't feel it, and others don't see it. You can be so deluded as to be alive when you should be dead. But pierce the veil for one second, and all the weight of truth comes crashing into your self-deluded world.

49. Visualization: You must see clearly what you are trying to do. For some magic, this need extends throughout the whole use of the spell which for some spells can be difficult if they last for an hour or more.

50. Emotion: Some spells require emotion to fuel them.

Forex: "The Flaming Fist of Doom covers the hand with fire as the caster feels anger, and allows the caster who spikes his fury to an all-consuming level to throw bolts of fire."

This is obviously a Cast Once, Use Multiple Times spell. Many spells are Cast Once, Attack Once. Others are Cast Once, and Continous Use which is common for invisibility spells. The use of COUMT spells allows for the feel of two duelling wizards who have power beams blasting at each other which are met by the other's power beam, and they struggle to move the meeting point toward the other wizard.

It also allows a wizard to have what amounts to a hand pistol. You pull out the gun (spell), and each combat round, you try to hit the target.

....MORE LATER
Mon Nov 19 2007 5:33 pm #

Member

You're looking for Elements of Magic, Punishments, and Women's Status, currently tagged with "lists" and "societies", both of which appear in the increasingly-convenient Hot Tags side-bar. I went ahead and added "magic" to its tags to match with this thread.
Mon Nov 19 2007 8:21 pm #

Member

Yea!! I'll go take a look at it now.

Eric
Mon Nov 19 2007 10:57 pm #

Member

This is a re-copy so that I can merge some of it with the list above in this post. In other words, everyone should ignore it.

1. Code of Behavior

For some magic, you have to stay within the confines of a code of behavior, or the magic leaves you. The stricter the code of behavior, the greater the bonus.

A. Paladins
B. Good Witches
C. Prophets
D. Good Kings

2. Those sensitive to magic can sense you. Ranges vary from on the same street to the same county, same state, same continent, same world, and same universe. A special category which is a separate bonus is nearby dimensions.

Thus Caitlin Saunders,verser, Demon Slayer, and former Accountant from Earth casts her spell of Disintegration against a Foul Minion of the Shadow. In a neighboring dimension, a Hellworld, the Demon Grz'lak'nik wakes up to the smell of Power, and starts to track the spoor with his Hellhounds.

A further limitation is that the smell of magic does not leave you immediately. While close physical proximity to the caster's once location is the typical default, again greater ranges are possible.

Grz'lak'nik arrives ten minutes later on Earth with his hounds cloaked in a veil of invisibility. His hounds pick up the spoor, and he spots the smear where a foolish Minion challenged a Demon-slayer. He cackles grimly. He believes in the virtue of ambush. Caitlin will not be so lucky later tonight as he stalks her.

3. You use the magic for an improper use, and you get punished.

4. Balance of elements magic--you cast a laser spell, and shortly there after, you're surrounded by shadow.

5. The traditional time, body involvement, items, and speech.

6. Certain languages get a bonus. While the use of any foreign language gains a bonus, the use of certain languages gains a larger bonus. Thus Spanish will benefit the native English speaker, but writing in Runic will be more beneficial, and speaking in Ancient Sumerian even more so.

Any language that has a status as a 'Tongue of the Angels' or 'Language of the Gods' has an even higher bonus.

7. For some magics, every use of magic reduces the amount of magic in the world. The proper expression of this is by the Arch-Magi Newton in the Second Law of Magicodynamics which states "All magical processes tend toward maximum disorder given time."

8. For others, each magi only has a certain amount of power. This is a physical limit. Magic learned under this school has a maximum usage number which is the typical set-up for a verser character (or my suggestion of the same).

Jacob Winters, Verser, Space Fighter Pilot, and former Video Gamer on Earth has learned the Sunbolt spell. He knows that he can cast it ten times in his quasi-immortal life. He's already used it four times, and he's facing off against a difficult Vampire named Gavin. He wonders to himself if this is the time to use it the fifth time...

A more difficult way to utilize this is to say there is a limited amount of magic in the world, and each user uses up some of it. This can be visualized better, perhaps, or at least more concretely, with the Mana needed for magic in "The Magic Goes Away" by Pournelle and Niven or the way that 'Defilers' drain life energy from plants and kill a circle of Earth about themselves when they cast spells in the Dark Sun setting.

9. Magic has an altering effect. For some types of magic, its toward evil which is the more commonly understood effect. For others, its toward good, and it makes the character unearthly. This is seen in C.S. Lewis's The Space Trilogy where the hero Ransom by Book Three is not completely of Earth anymore. And for others like the Mythos, the thin shell of sanity may be broken by the revelation of things Man Was Not Meant to Know (although its not certain Lovecraft meant that for everyone...for some of his characters might have survived just fine mentally, but with the difficulty of being eaten they did not prove that to be the case).

10. One effect is the gaining of things that are personal. This goes several directions at once. Certain magics, such as Voodoo, require personal items to make the spell. Others require the True Name of the target. The True Name can be one of two things--an innate name that something has, perhaps gifted to it by Adam when that something was nameless, or by some other Namer. Or it can be a secret name which is held closely.

11. Mana is a magic power field which may be gathered. There are various techniques for this gathering. A large number of spells require mana to be cast, and another huge amount require mana to spread the effect of the spell over a large area. Effectively in Multiverser terms, this is the creation of a spell that enables the later casting of another spell. In some universes, the mana may be held in an item. In others, it is gathered by will at the last moment, and then the spell is cast.

12. Some magic is Just Plain Unnatural, and so the usage of magic always rebounds to the detriment of the user.

Jonas Majeerle, verser, AC Tech, and Apprentice Mage opened the Black Book of Forbidden Spells while his master was out. He cast the first spell of entertainment and enjoyed a fine repast with beautiful waitresses, and the ghosts of famous men to converse with. Then he got up, and felt sick to his stomach.

He had a stomach flu.

Later as he ventured to the latrine, he tripped and fell down the hill.

Still later, he came in to see his master who was very angry with him. Inexplicably, he had forgotten to put up the Forbidden Book, and his master was aware of what he had done.

A bit humorous, but it gets the idea across. This is not 'no benefit to self'. Instead this is 'Magic is an aberration, and Nature hates it.'

13. No magic may be cast that is solely of benefit to yourself. You may cast a spell to destroy a demon because demons are a threat to one and all. You may not cast a spell to turn lead into gold to pay for your tab at the inn. If you do, you will find the Universe is messing with you....like having all the gold you touch turn to lead for the next week.

A more extreme version of this would only allow you to spell the demon if he was clearly a threat to another in the immediate future.

14. Roles must be respected: This is typically holy magic. The Prophet may not call down fire upon the Demon except in certain specific circumstances. Perhaps if the Demon manifests itself in its Hunting Form, a material killing machine, or if the Demon has been thrice rebuked by the Innocent, and it decides that instead of tempting the Innocent, that he will take the Innocent's cat hostage, then the Demon has stepped over his own boundaries, and may be dealt with by any means neccessary.

This is more common in worlds with strong codes of behavior and high magic, and potentially archetypical patterns are commonplace. It is a form of Armed Truce between the Host of Heaven and the Forces of Evil.

15. As Wodium says:

You can have Wild Magic which is not under the control of the user directly. Cast the spell, and then roll a GE roll. '21' or higher, and roughly what the player wanted, occurred. '27' or better, and something better occurred.

As a further wrinkle, you can have Wild Magic which activates potentially when the character is stressed.

Another wrinkle, mentioned by the Champions game is the idea...

You wake up in the morning...your hands are sore....your superhero costume is bloody...you don't remember anything....you see on the news....'ten gangsters bloodily dismembered last night in one of the most brutal....'.

And then there's Bink of Spell for Chameleon who has a magic talent which prevents him from being harmed. But he doesn't know how its going to operate. For this, you create a specified aim, and when certain conditions are met, the magic fires up...and goes off if the roll is successful, and the method the magic chooses is up to the referee's discretion.
Tue Nov 20 2007 2:43 am #

Moderator

I feel I need to step in here and reiterate what I think is a vital point in the Multiverser rules:

Your "limitations" on magic cannot be rules in a universe, because that is an unfair limitation on a verser. For example, in Haston, every wizard and sorcerer must sing for his magic to work--but if a verser were to bring some other kind of magic into the world, it would work just as well as that which is sung.

In the case of Haston's song magic, what makes the singing necessary is the fact that all the wizards and sorcerers believe it is necessary, and thus on the one hand singing builds their expectation (bonusing their chance of success) while on the other hand not singing completely takes away any expectation they might have of performing magic.

What you need to do is review these "limitations" with an eye to the bonus that a caster gets for taking that specific limitation on any specific spell. That is, it's entirely possible that in Haston all magic must be sung and in this other world all magic must be quoted directly and accurately from the words of (various) scriptures, because for the casters in those worlds that's how it works--but for the verser, he's going to pick up some Haston magic and some Scripture magic, and he gets whatever bonuses acrue for that kind of magic in each spell individually.

Also, number 21, "once and never again", is nonsense to a verser. It can apply to an indig, but it really can't apply to a verser. For example, Let's say that there's a spell I can cast by which I recite the passage, "he has given his angels charge et cetera" when I am falling, but I take the limitation that I can only cast this once. Fine; I cast it. Now I'm in another situation, and I know I can't use that same spell--so this time, instead of reciting the scripture, I will sing the Mendelsohn setting of those same words, or I will claim the promise of Matthew 4:whatever, or take another passage about mounting up with wings like eagles. Sure, I could only cast that specific spell once, but there are a billion billion spells that are not the same but do the same exact thing, or something as like it as to make no difference. That limitation would only work if it were impossible to invent spells, and that means that the caster has to believe it is impossible to invent spells, and that it is impossible to do this spell more than once. I, personally, make a point of having as many different ways to do the same thing as I can devise, so a single use per universe limitation is a joke that costs me nothing.

--M. J. Young
Tue Nov 20 2007 9:15 am #

Member

1)I would have thought this to be attacking a horse with -10 HP in D20 terms. Let me add my blow to the horse. As I've said before, there will be a disclaimer emphasizing the optional nature of such lists at the top of the article. I think this is largely unneccessary, but not actively harmful, so demonstrating my flexibility, I'll go along with it.

Now, how about we find another horse to maul? Unless I'm missing something here?

2)Yes, I need to go over the limitations (why is that in quotes?), and affix values to them. But even someone as insanely fast as moi needs a little time.

2)Well, lets focus on trying to fix it, then. A note that this has a variable value for verser and indig is of potential use. Of course, on the other hand-a once and never again is actually more limiting to a verser because the verser is immortal.

Again, you're reasoning from your rather unique POV. Most people aren't like that. Some can do this to a degree.

Also, you would have to learn a new spell in order to cast. One disadvantage with this limit that I had not really considered was that you can never become an expert with a spell with this limit. Your top skill level is 1@3.

Also, another way to slightly broaden it is to say Flight Spell--1)Angels Lifting 2)Hand of God Carrying 3)Faith in Promises as large categories. So, once you used the first quote, we'll call that 'angels lifting', and that would block any other form of angels carrying you. So the Mendellsohn song would do nothing if it had the same limit.

An even stronger form would be for the character to forego usage in any other situation even without that spell. This could actually be a very serious limitation, and one I would never, ever use except in the direst straits. That would be basically the accepting of a geas on yourself in exchange for casting a spell.
Tue Nov 20 2007 3:46 pm #

Member

    Of course, on the other hand-a once and never again is actually more limiting to a verser because the verser is immortal. Again, you're reasoning from your rather unique POV. Most people aren't like that. Some can do this to a degree.

Apologies. I have issues with a verser using this limitation as well. Let me begin with an example.

In Piers Anthony's Adept series, Stile crosses over from Proton (sci-fi environmentally-destroyed planet of bubble-cities) to Phaze (related fantasy universe with mirrored geography and inhabitants) and discovers by accident that he is an Adept here. Every Adept performs his magic a different way - one draws glyphs, another makes gestures, a third brews potions. Stile, the Blue Adept, uses words and music. There is a catch: a particular spell, once used, can never be used again.

This doesn't mean that once he flies once, he can't fly again; he flies on several occasions. It means he can't reuse the same incantation twice. On one or two occasions, he accidentally uses a spell very similar to one he used before, and it only worked a very little bit. As time goes on, he has to continue to be creative with his spells, and in general he avoids using his magic when he doesn't have to because it wastes rhymes. However, over time he gets much better at using his magic, despite these restrictions.

Here begin the Muliverser mechanics. Stile does not have eighteen zillion unusable skills, one for every spell he's ever cast. He has one skill: a powerful 15@10 Do Anything skill, with a short time factor, a purely verbal component (-10) which must rhyme (+0) and be appropriate to his result (+5), and which must never use the same verbal component twice (greatly reduced effectiveness if substantially similar yet not identical).

I'm not sure if that last limit, the bit about having to change the words around, is even worth a bonus. I'm inclined to treat it as color - "the skill roll is eighty-nine; sorry, you couldn't think of a rhyme for C'Thulu fast enough. Try again? You've got twelve seconds before he eats the next villager."

"Success! But it's only 02; you must have used a similar spell on the Zulu last week. Still, it gets job done. The Elder God is now vacationing in Hawaii - as far as you know." "Well, then I guess 02 was enough, right?" "I guess. The villagers getting eaten by his un-teleported minions might disagree . . ."

The problem is that unless the limitation can somehow also limit the player, it should be worth no bonus.

    That would be basically the accepting of a geas on yourself in exchange for casting a spell.

This should be possible with holy magic. Removing the geas would also be possible. This is much better in terms of Multiverser-style magical mechanics.
Tue Nov 20 2007 7:43 pm #

Member

Of course, on the other hand-a once and never again is actually more limiting to a verser because the verser is immortal. Again, you're reasoning from your rather unique POV. Most people aren't like that. Some can do this to a degree.

Apologies. I have issues with a verser using this limitation as well. Let me begin with an example.

In Piers Anthony's Adept series, Stile crosses over from Proton (sci-fi environmentally-destroyed planet of bubble-cities) to Phaze (related fantasy universe with mirrored geography and inhabitants) and discovers by accident that he is an Adept here. Every Adept performs his magic a different way - one draws glyphs, another makes gestures, a third brews potions. Stile, the Blue Adept, uses words and music. There is a catch: a particular spell, once used, can never be used again.

====Right. Its a decent series.

This doesn't mean that once he flies once, he can't fly again; he flies on several occasions.

====I didn't say that. You could fly with wings, anti-gravity, wind-riding, force of will...and so on.

It means he can't reuse the same incantation twice.

====Right.

On one or two occasions, he accidentally uses a spell very similar to one he used before, and it only worked a very little bit. As time goes on, he has to continue to be creative with his spells,

====A limitation. Its like last week when we argued about languages. I ended up deciding you'd made my arguement for me to at least a degree.

and in general he avoids using his magic when he doesn't have to because it wastes rhymes.

====Another reflection of the limitation. You're very helpful.

However, over time he gets much better at using his magic, despite these restrictions.

====One could say his attributes went up. Or that a set of skills that supports his magic went up...tactics and poetry would be both be supportive. Or you could say what you're implying. Either works.

Here begin the Muliverser mechanics. Stile does not have eighteen zillion unusable skills, one for every spell he's ever cast.

====He could.

He has one skill: a powerful 15@10 Do Anything skill, with a short time factor, a purely verbal component (-10) which must rhyme (+0) and be appropriate to his result (+5), and which must never use the same verbal component twice (greatly reduced effectiveness if substantially similar yet not identical).

====This also works. In either case, its a limitation.

I'm not sure if that last limit, the bit about having to change the words around, is even worth a bonus. I'm inclined to treat it as color - "the skill roll is eighty-nine; sorry, you couldn't think of a rhyme for C'Thulu fast enough. Try again? You've got twelve seconds before he eats the next villager."

====Either way would be fine by me.

"Success! But it's only 02; you must have used a similar spell on the Zulu last week. Still, it gets job done. The Elder God is now vacationing in Hawaii - as far as you know." "Well, then I guess 02 was enough, right?" "I guess. The villagers getting eaten by his un-teleported minions might disagree . . ."

The problem is that unless the limitation can somehow also limit the player, it should be worth no bonus.

====You've demonstrated the limitation multiple times already. Very generous of you. :/

That would be basically the accepting of a geas on yourself in exchange for casting a spell.

This should be possible with holy magic.

====There has to be non-holy magic geases. And there is in D20 if I remember right.

Removing the geas would also be possible.

====I had considered this point, but didn't want to get into the complication of it.

This is much better in terms of Multiverser-style magical mechanics.

====No comprehende.

====Honestly, thanks. You might well have made my case better than I could make it.
Tue Nov 20 2007 9:59 pm #

Member

Eric, I have not made your case. At no point have I shown that the "limitation" of not being able to use the same incantation more than once in any way limits the player (as distinct from the character). Demonstrate to me that it does so, and I'll consider it.

Side point:

    I didn't say that. You could fly with wings, anti-gravity, wind-riding, force of will...and so on.

Yet this is not the case with Stile. He uses the same kind of magic every time, just with different incantations. I'm outlining Stile's case particularly because, although an indigenous caster most certainly could use your limitation, if a verser tried the same thing, I would treat it in a manner similar to the way I'm treating Stile.

    There has to be non-holy magic geases.

There are. The difficulty comes with trying to say that a person casting such an arcane geas on himself somehow, in so doing, makes something else that he does easier. The reason I restricted this to holy magic is because with a holy magic skill, it would be the divine power casting the geas; that is, the god is more lenient in allowing the character to perform the miracle [the player gets a +X bonus] because the character makes a deal with the god that he will accept a geas against performing some future activity [the god casts a geas on the character]. For a god who encouraged self-reliance, I could see this working for a geas against asking for the miracle again ("okay, I'll do it this once because you're a faithful follower, but find another way out in the future"). This logic doesn't work for arcane magic because it's the character doing both things: there's no in-game reason for the geas to make the other spell more powerful.
Tue Nov 20 2007 11:40 pm #

Moderator

    1)I would have thought this to be attacking a horse with -10 HP in D20 terms. Let me add my blow to the horse. As I've said before, there will be a disclaimer emphasizing the optional nature of such lists at the top of the article. I think this is largely unneccessary, but not actively harmful, so demonstrating my flexibility, I'll go along with it.

    Now, how about we find another horse to maul? Unless I'm missing something here?

O.K., one of us is missing something here; it might be me.

When I read your lists of limitations, they come across to me as if they are saying that no one can perform magic in this world unless the magic they perform follows these rules. Using Haston as a simple example, if Lauren Hastings came in there quoting scripture, it would do nothing, because despite the fact that Lauren is a very powerful clerical wizard, all her magic is based on reciting scripture and none of it is sung.

I am saying that it is not, in Multiverser terms, "optional" to prevent any one kind of magical ritual from working in a world, or to limit the performance of magic in a world to a limited number of ritual approaches. You can powerblock all arcane magic; you can powerblock healings, or morphs, or teleports, or any desired spell effect, but you cannot powerblock a type of ritual. When Lauren Hastings comes to Haston, she is as powerful a wizard as she was before she arrived, even though she sings none of her spells.

This is the same rule that makes it so that you can't say that a priest who calls on Odin for his magic can't work magic in a world in which Zeus is in command; it unfairly penalizes the player for his choices in ritual. Zeus may not and cannot powerblock Odin, nor Odin Zeus.

In the same way, the rules fundamentally do not allow a world in which specific types of ritual are blocked. Haston works solely because the people who do magic there all believe that they have to sing to have it work, and thus they cannot believe magic will work if they don't sing.

Incidentally, you broke that rule even in Haston: the ring I was given was magically binding despite the fact that no one sang in the passing of it. Thus there are at least two types of magic in the world, one which requires singing and the other which requires promises.

Now, if all you're saying is that the indigenous wizards of these worlds all take these limitations because they believe magic will not work otherwise, but the verser is free to create and use whatever magic he desires by any ritual method he prefers, then we are saying the same thing. However, that's not what I'm hearing when you speak. It might be my fault, that I am misunderstanding you; or it might be that you think making this "optional" makes it all right for a referee to create a world in which certain kinds of rituals don't work. I'm saying it is not optional and not all right to create a world in which certain kinds of rituals don't work, only one in which certain kinds of effects are impossible.

It would be comparable to having a character verse into a sci-fi world and being told that his lasers and blasters don't work here, and all that he knows about high technology is useless, because this world uses sapphire lasers and his are all ruby lasers. The answer is that a tech device of the same level as tech devices used in that world works in that world, even if it doesn't work the same way they do. That same answer applies to magic skills.

Are we on the same page?

Thanks.

--M. J. Young

Member

[Side point; main response is above.]

    Its like last week when we argued about languages. I ended up deciding you'd made my arguement for me to at least a degree.

Really? That's not how I remember it. I recall isolating the effect you wanted from the identity of the language and then creating a drawback to justify the bonus, when by your original argument the character would have gotten the bonus essentially for free, with the player having paid no cost and suffering no limitation.
Wed Nov 21 2007 12:09 am #

Member

Further Limits:
1. Magical Language: If you strive to learn the language for the purpose of doing magic in it, the extra efforts counts toward all spells you'll do magic with in that language. This is divided by the time you can use the language.

2. Tattoos: These are another bit of pre-magic bonus (or they can be).

3. Code of the Black Magician:
Wed Nov 21 2007 12:22 am #

Member

Now, if all you're saying is that the indigenous wizards of these worlds all take these limitations because they believe magic will not work otherwise, but the verser is free to create and use whatever magic he desires by any ritual method he prefers, then we are saying the same thing.

====Of course, I'm saying exactly this. Why would I be saying something else? Scratches head.

If this list of magic limitations was 'list of powerblocks' (which is something I'd like to do)....but that doesn't make sense because I'd write 'powerblock'.

And anyways, you were the one that insisted on my pointing out that the values I gave to the swords were 'optional'.

As to breaking the rule in Haston, I followed Christopher Stasheff's views for that world. With him, a vast majority of the magic was sung, but there were a few other things here and there that fit the general schema of the universe. It may be more accurate to say that you were not fully acquainted with all the subtleties of the universe you visited. But I may have made a mistake. Happens frequently.

================================

Eric, I have not made your case. At no point have I shown that the "limitation" of not being able to use the same incantation more than once in any way limits the player (as distinct from the character). Demonstrate to me that it does so, and I'll consider it.

====A distinction that in this case makes no difference.

====There is another Xanth character I think that does what I described. That Xanth character is more limited than Stile. Stile is still limited.

You might need two sets of some limits for this if they are as broad as Stile. I remember one magic series where Poetry is Magic...but only the very first poetry that describes an effect...next time that poetry is used...its not magical.

Stile had two limits...innovation and rhyming.

Its clear that Innovation is a limit. The question to me is how much is it worth?

And the geas is an essential part of the spell. Its part of the powergenerating apparatus for the spell.

Wodium: Really? That's not how I remember it. I recall isolating the effect you wanted from the identity of the language and then creating a drawback to justify the bonus, when by your original argument the character would have gotten the bonus essentially for free, with the player having paid no cost and suffering no limitation.

====Well, that too.
Wed Nov 21 2007 12:45 am #

Member

    A distinction that in this case makes no difference.

On the contrary, it makes every difference in every case. There are two fundamental requirements that every limitation must satisfy before it can grant a bonus:

1) It must make the skill less useful, that is, it must limit the player somehow. This maintains game balance; no bonuses for free.
2) It must have an in-game reason for providing a bonus to skill success. This maintains the connection between the mechanics and the fantasy reality those mechanics are intended to simulate.

If the player is in no way limited by the ritual's requirement that the incantations be varied from casting to casting, then it is unbalancing to award him a bonus to skill success for that requirement. In order to call it a limitation, the player must be limited. I fail to see how the distinction between player and character is irrelevant here - or anywhere else, for that matter.

    Its clear that Innovation is a limit. The question to me is how much is it worth?

It is not clear until you present some way in which it limits the player's ability to use the skill effectively. (I'm not saying that can't be done, mind you - just that you haven't, yet.)

__

Regarding magical languages:

    1. Magical Language: If you strive to learn the language for the purpose of doing magic in it, the extra efforts counts toward all spells you'll do magic with in that language. This is divided by the time you can use the language.

Didn't we agree that this alone isn't enough? Unless you work out some sort of secondary give-and-take for which the language is the "explanation" (as we did here and here, with the die mod penalty), I summed up my thoughts on this one in this post.
Wed Nov 21 2007 2:51 am #

Member

I think we ought to put the limit in, and then we can attach a note saying why it should not be there. Because to me, it looks like you're making my case for me. By your standards, this passes. And I'm not even sure your standards are right.

==========================

Well, in part, I kinda thought I'd stop because it was so obvious that I was right. Or at least thats my story.

Again, very probably the best way to handle such things is to present (in short form) the ideas involved, and let the GM who uses it make up his own mind.
Wed Nov 21 2007 3:14 am #

Member

    I think we ought to put the limit in, and then we can attach a note saying why it should not be there . . . Again, very probably the best way to handle such things is to present (in short form) the ideas involved, and let the GM who uses it make up his own mind.

I'd like to register my extreme disagreement with that course of action. It is always in the referee's power to unbalance his game or to modify it against the grain of the system's intended function; that doesn't make it our place to make suggestions along those lines.

Because it seems like you still don't get my point about the player vs. the character, here's an example of a way that Stile's limitation actually would limit the player. It's clumsy, heavy on the book-keeping, and difficult to evaluate, so I didn't want to suggest it, but maybe it'll help get my point across:

Every time Stile's player (let's call him Miles) uses his 15@10 Do Anything skill, he must use a different verbal incantation. He gets a bonus to his skill roll for this. To make sure Miles is properly limited in return for the bonus, his referee asks him - every time he uses the skill - to state for the record what incantation he's using. The referee then writes this down and compares it to a list of previously used incantations (which the player is never allowed to see). If it is not yet on the list, he adds it to the list and asks the player to roll his skill check. If it is on the list, he informs the player that he has failed. If something very similar is on the list, he asks the player to roll and applies a -50 sit-mod.

This is a very cumbersome method, and as a referee I would never subject myself to it. However, if, as you suggested earlier, you were to award Miles a bonus for the "limitation" without using this or any other system, you are only "limiting" the character, and Miles gets away with his bonus scot-free.

Is that more clear?
Wed Nov 21 2007 5:06 am #

Member

I don't see the problem that it is horribly cumbersome (I'd say its mildly cumbersome) as sufficient reason to disallow it. There is sufficient reason to suggest this system to the GM, and then point out how cumbersome it is.

In the Champions rule systems [If I remember right--but the general point stands] (another universal system) there are Powers Unconstrained, Powers with Magnifying Glass signs (to signify that the GM ought to be cautious about allowing them), and Powers with Stop Signs (which signifies even greater caution). Follow this example of a more successful system.

As a general rule of thumb, allow as much as you can. Player freedom is essential. 'Allowing' is even more important in a universal system because some specific systems don't need to deal with certain issues, so they can dodge things. Universal systems don't have that luxury. Let the GM use his judgement, and trust him, and remember--he's not you.

I understand that self-knowledge of what you would do is a very valuable tool, but you can't get stuck there. There are a lot of people who do things differently, and you have to design for them as well. (Well, thats how I do it anyways.) Try to make your design as broadly useful to as many different sorts of GM's and players as possible. In my experience, this is something that people who are naturally good at systems have difficulty with. I don't know enough about you to say thats the case.

Also, getting too worried about how people are going to misuse your system is counter-productive. If people do not misuse your system, you're dead in the water. Champions and White Wolf got horribly misused...and they were a success. Those two facts cannot be separated.
Wed Nov 21 2007 4:30 pm #

Member

Your advise is good advice, mostly. However, I'm still irritated that you claimed I was arguing your own points. This isn't productive irritation, I know, but I would feel better if you would admit that I had a point as distinct from your own.

My suggestion for dealing with Stile - the second one, the one with the bonus for the "limitation" - is not the magnifying glass or the stop sign. It is the critical hit table. The GM can use it if he wants, and depending on the players and they style of game they like, it could work for them. I'd give the limitation a +3 bonus.

My suggestion for dealing with Stile - the second one, the one with the bonus - is NOT what I was arguing against including. I was arguing against including a bonus for the the limitation WITHOUT doing what I did.

Awarding a bonus for this without making specific provision for how the player is limited - which is exactly what you were suggesting - isn't the magnifying glass or the stop sign, either. It's giving stuff away for free.

I've played Champions. I've run Champions. I've read the consolidated 1990's rules for fun. One thing they never advocate is giving stuff away for free. That's what I was arguing against. You cannot convince me that it's alright to award skill bonuses for non-limiting limitation. I was hoping that you would try to convince me that this "limitation" really was limiting - but alas, you found it easier to pretend that I had already done so.

    Champions and White Wolf got horribly misused...and they were a success. Those two facts cannot be separated.

Neither company published material that misused their own system.
Wed Nov 21 2007 8:59 pm #

Tadeusz
Member

Wodium, I'll admit to a bit of laziness, and to suffering from an attack of the cute's, but it seemed to me that your arguements could be turned to my side without much difficulty. Now perhaps this is because I'm not thinking in your terms....like I still don't see why a distinction between player and character is that big of a deal. I don't think that the player enters into it at all. Perhaps I have become befogged within my own glamour (in the Fey sense of the word).

I can write up something, and try to address your concerns when I get around to adding another Ten Limits to the Fifty Limits. You can tell me then if I've addressed it adequately, okay?

As to your last statement, thats highly debatable. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have to go very far at a gaming convention to find an experienced GM who would disagree with you.

Also, I don't agree with your orginal premise--that this is a misuse.

My solution for these times when honest disagreeement occurs is simple--lay out the points, and let the individual gamemaster decide. I understand that this is a scale...at one end are completely trivial disagreements, and at the other end are situations where the whole basis of the game is subverted. I would suggest that most disagreements are going to land on the trivial end of the scale and thus the proper response is to blow it off, or to outline the problem, and move on.

A lot of the time, I'm amiable. I blow it off, and accept the other guy's pov. I'm reminded of a story which had a managerial technique in it--this guy was manager but didn't have a clue what to do. So when two of his workers would come arguing passionately for one thing, or the other, he'd randomly decide. He figured his workers knew what they were doing, so either course would work. And it got things moving, and gave him a rep of a quick thinker. Thats actually not a bad idea...speed of decision making is frequently more important than making the exactly right decision.

And I've been guilty of being a Baptist preacher....like the ones that say in their sermons 'finally', a half-hour before they finish.

I hope this has assuaged your understandable irritation. I'd be irritated too at that guy with the smug smirk on his face who thinks he's cuter than he is, and is trying to dodge using his brain for more than a hatrack.

Eric
Wed Nov 21 2007 9:41 pm #

Member

All right. Here's why the distinction between player and character matters.

Let us say that to cast Spell X, the character has to imagine a new color that no one has ever seen before. That's really hard, so we give him +10 on his spell to compensate him for the difficulty.

Now let us imagine that when the character goes to use the skill, the player says, "I imagine a new color," the referee says, "well, that was really hard, but you made your skill roll so I guess you succeeded," and the spell works.

The question now becomes: why should the player ever create a spell that doesn't require that he imagine an entirely new color?
Wed Nov 21 2007 9:53 pm #

Member

    Wodium, I'll admit to a bit of laziness, and to suffering from an attack of the cute's, but it seemed to me that your arguements could be turned to my side without much difficulty.

If it wouldn't have been difficult, doing it would have been helpful. It's hard to argue with someone who isn't actually arguing.

Thank you, I'm not irritated anymore. I'm sorry I got perturbed in the first place, really. It probably clouded my rhetoric.
Wed Nov 21 2007 9:56 pm #

Tadeusz
Member

All right. Here's why the distinction between player and character matters.

Let us say that to cast Spell X, the character has to imagine a new color that no one has ever seen before. That's really hard, so we give him +10 on his spell to compensate him for the difficulty.

Now let us imagine that when the character goes to use the skill, the player says, "I imagine a new color," the referee says, "well, that was really hard, but you made your skill roll so I guess you succeeded," and the spell works.

The question now becomes: why should the player ever create a spell that doesn't require that he imagine an entirely new color?

====If the character made his skill roll, then yes, it works. I'd probably progressively increase the difficulty of this task on the basis that each new whacked out idea has to be harder to come up with than the last, and I'd at various points give him bonuses on a Creativity skill as he was trying to do something very hard.

Note, he could not practise this spell under my suggestion unless he was penny wise and pound foolish which is a significant limit all by itself.

Consider this example: Character has golden bowl. Character smashes bowl as part of magic spell. Now he has to come up with another golden bowl for the new spell. This is not at all hard on the player.

"I go down to the market and buy a golden bowl." Player's effort is now over.

Difficulty for the player does not enter into it. If we were doing actual magic, then yes, but its a game (and I know you know that.)

Hopefully, I've now engaged one of your arguements.
Wed Nov 21 2007 10:30 pm #

Member

Sometimes MJ understands what each side is trying to say better than the side trying to say it. I may ask him for translation services.

I've also lost track of much of the arguement although this corner of it I have a halfway decent grasp on. But I figure that doesn't matter right now. Once I get to making the limits again, then I can try to follow the twisted skeins of logic and come up with something appropriate.

Eric
Wed Nov 21 2007 10:31 pm #

Member

    Consider this example: Character has golden bowl. Character smashes bowl as part of magic spell. Now he has to come up with another golden bowl for the new spell. This is not at all hard on the player.

    "I go down to the market and buy a golden bowl." Player's effort is now over.

    Difficulty for the player does not enter into it. If we were doing actual magic, then yes, but its a game (and I know you know that.)

Here the player is limited because he can only do this if there actually is a market and they have a golden bowl. Further, he is presented with the dual challenges of getting there and buying it. If he has no money, or is locked in a prison cell, or is in a universe with no market or no bowl (Nagaworld, anyone?), he is now unable to perform his skill.

Clear?

    I'd probably progressively increase the difficulty of this task on the basis that each new whacked out idea has to be harder to come up with than the last, and I'd at various points give him bonuses on a Creativity skill as he was trying to do something very hard.

    Note, he could not practise this spell under my suggestion unless he was penny wise and pound foolish which is a significant limit all by itself.

If you have a system in place which limits the player - for example, requiring him to roll a skill or attribute check successfully before getting to roll for spell success - then the color limitation is limiting, and deserves a bonus. If you do not, as in my example, then the player is being bonused for nothing. This is my point: every time you add something to this list, you need to spell out how this limitation mechanically or circumstantially limits the use of the skill. See the Referee's Rules for examples of this. There needs to be a defined situation in which the limitation results in the player being disadvantaged or unable to use the skill.

I'll leave it to MJ as to whether a restriction on practice is valid within the framework of Multiverser rules.
Wed Nov 21 2007 11:48 pm #

Moderator

O.K., thanks for the extended discussion on the question of whether the use of a specifically learned magical language should bonus the use of a spell.

I have an answer; I think this should settle the matter.

The only way that the use of the magical language can create a bonus in casting the spell is this: the player must roll his skill at using that language as a necessary and separate component for his skill at the spell itself; if the use language skill succeeds, he is bonused for the spell, but if it fails, the spell also fails. He still must roll for the spell to see if it botches (without the bonus for the language skill), and if it shows successful, he's lost all the material components that would have been destroyed in the casting, and the spell has not worked because he failed to pronounce the words correctly.

That should satisfy the matter. It is not different from many spells Graeme has used, in which the successful use of one skill is a necessary part of the spell performance.

The same thing applies to the "imagine a new color" limitation: since this is something the character has to do, the character has to roll to successfully do it, and if that roll fails, the spell automatically fails as well.

If you have to do something that is a limitation that creates a bonus, outside those already justified on the grounds given, they it's almost certainly a separate skill requiring a separate skill check.

I think that's what Scott is saying, in essence. It means that yes, you can put those requirements in as spell limitations, as long as in doing them the player has to roll for the character to succeed.

So go ahead and include them, Eric, but note that these things are separate skills which must be checked separately.

Oh, and I apologize for misunderstanding what you were saying about limitations. I was concerned about situations in which verser mages would be prevented from using their magic in magical worlds. Call it a problem with which we wrestled quite a bit in the design phase (what happens if a verser lands in a D&D world, with fire and forget magic? if an adherent of Odin lands in Rome under the dominion of Zeus? stuff like that). I'm sensitive to it, and apparently saw it where it wasn't.

--M. J. Young
Thu Nov 22 2007 1:37 am #

Member

Thank you Wodium, and MJ. I think we've got this one covered as well.

Additional magic limits....

1. Preparation Time: The Sensei is willing to teach you how to manipulate your chi, after you spend seven years running, purifying yourself (eating vegetables, and other practises), and studying the basics of philosophy. And if you pass, then you can learn your first chi skill.

Now in ways that looks like a religion example. You could make it less religious, and more a straight apprenticeship. The wizard will not teach you his apprentic any magic for the first three years of the apprenticeship. He says that learning discipline is an essential part of the process.

2. It occurs to me that the Wish spell in D&D cost you a year of your life. Well, since versers are immortal, thats not quite an issue. However, a spell that aged you should be worth something. I know some versers who start young might consider this a bennie, at first.

And yes, I know there are ways to reverse this limitation. I'd have to say that the limitation would come with a sizable sit-mod against alteration. If you have a -50 on all youthening spells designed to recover what you lost, then thats a fairly serious limit.

3. I know Wodium was curious about the 'no practise' side effect of some spells whether that counts as a limit....well, what if we made that the main point. In my novel Worldwalker, the character has prayed for a miracle, but he doesn't know if it worked. He's prayed for super strength like Samson. He realizes he could test it by bending a penny he has in his pocket....see if he's superstrong before he challenges everyone and makes an idiot of himself. But he reasons this would show lack of faith, and be offensive to God (thats an open question as to whether it would, but this was his idea).....so, a limit that has the effect 'you cannot practise this spell'....the only way to get better is in the fire of combat. As noted, this is probably best for Holy magic that is miracles (as prayer is practised.). Again, I'm not sure this would be God's intention, but the character might think so.

I'd be interested in seeing more examples....Graeme's engineering calculations comes to mind...so does a Hermeticist knowing the thousand names of fire.....I'm willing to be that we could come up with another Fifty. At that point, I think I'd be willing to call it a day. A Hundred Magic Limits is certainly enough for quite some time.
Thu Nov 22 2007 3:00 am #

Member

I need to go back through this, and write up the numbers for these limits. It also would not hurt if I made magic spells for each limit. Of course, that is a LOT of work.

New Magic Limits:

*These are limits as the magicians in a world think that they are, and will teach them as this.

1. Magic is Conceptual. Inspired by Dr. Strange, Sorceror Supreme this magic does not use common objects or coincidences. Power bolts not fire bolts, wrapping sheets of energions, not vines.

The largest limit here is that magic is obvious and unnatural to the casual eye. Such magic is also quite visible in that it generates a fair bit of light.

In this school, you can't silently or secretly ambush someone unless you learn some silent/secret spell which will be weaker. This unfortunately does not qualify as a limit as School Limits don't.

2. Magic as Underlying Rules: Is the Vampire specially vulnerable to the Sun, or is the Sun attacking the Vampire as it has authority over the day, and he is a creature of the night? This school of magic leans toward Answer #2.

This is a type of magic meant to make the player think poetically and mythically. If the character can draw a correlation between his attack, and the target, then the magic may work. If he fails, then it won't.

Forex: Niburg the Court Wizard hears from his lord that traitorous knights are riding the Forest Road. Niburg looks through his large collection of items in his castle tower given to him by his lord, and searches for items relevant to 'Treachery' and 'Knights' and 'Pain' since he wants to create a spell that will fling a curse at the knights.

He finds a broken sword, and a counterfeit coin that do for Treachery, and goes to the stables for a nag, and he trades a new robe for the stained robes of a cripple who lives daily with pain.

He chants his spell, ties the sword and the coin up in the robe, ties it too the horse's back, and compels the horse to run up and down the Forest Road seven times.

The evil knights are afflicted with agony that enables the pursuing lord to easily capture them.

Forex Again: Beset by Fey, the wanderer and sometime magicworker, Lou the Amazing, found himself trapped in a forest as night fell. Knowing that Fey are Chaotic, he began to pray to the Lords of Order in a metronomic fashion for a shield against the Fey. The order in his prayers was reflected as taught in his shield which made the Fey specially vulnerable to it, and preserved his sanity that long night.

3. No Bargaining: I understand in Wicca that your working tools you may not bargain for. You have to pay the asking price (Or I imagine just refuse and walk away to another merchant.)

4. No Buying: You don't buy your working tools, you make them yourself. This teaches respect, and shows respect, and ensures that your tools are pure.

There is an echo of this in Star Wars where Luke is told that his skills are complete when he builds his own lightsaber.

Forex: JohnA1Nut is a blacksmith. He visits a world where war wizards use swords. One of them agrees for a price to teach him wizardry. He then has John spend the next six months making a masterpiece blade, only allowing his own hands to touch the steel, and to fetch the water, and hammer the stock.

5. Risk of Impurity: Your tools or powders might not be pure.

Forex: Dak Volcanis, Fire Mage, hired the local blacksmith to build him a wand of wrought iron, seven times heated. The blacksmith, who thought Volcanis had not paid enough agreed readily, and then proceeded to heat the wand only once to save on the effort and expense. He then handed it over to Volcanis with assurance that it was 'seven times heated'.

6. Risk of Defilement: You, or your tools might become not usable for magic.

Forex: The Shaman of the North Perinese was an old, irascible man of great magic until the day he fell, and young Kyla, a female of his tribe, helped him to his feet. Even as she touched him, he felt years of coiled magic power fall to dust for a woman had touched him.

Forex: Cho-jin, Samurai, sat on a bench eating rice with chopsticks. A peasant walked behind him, careful not to touch him, but the unlucky and clumsy oaf let his feet go over the shadow of Cho-jin's sword. At that point, there was nothing to do, but duty. Cho-jin was merciful. He stood and used iajeutsu to draw and strike in one motion, and take the peasant's head off so smooth and quick that the oaf had no chance to feel fear.

The sword was the soul of the samurai, and the shadow part of the sword. To allow it to be stepped upon was to allow dishonor, and to break the spells of protection woven about him by his honorable ancestors who waited for him in the Other World.

7. Numbers: Evil deeds are best done in thirteens and sixes. Seven is the number of completion. Three is the sign of being serious about one's declaration. Eight is the number for summoning infernal forces.

Forex: The Lady Glennys walked the woods on patrol, and came to a spiked tree, jabbed eight times. Praying to the Goddess thrice for protection, she drew her spelled blade and slipped deeper into the shadowed trees.

The noise of conversation drew her, and she came to a fire. Thirteen men sat about it, talking and drinking. It could be innocent travellers, but the Hand of the Goddess knew that no innocent company, not dedicated to the Dark would ever travel with thirteen. Her surmise was confirmed when the Dark Mages took out their robes, and their mallets.

8. A Sign Must Be There: It may be hidden, but every magician must carry on their person, a symbol of the Powers they serve. Anarch powers usually have no problem with multiple symbols being carried, perhaps one of the Light, and one for true allegiance. Some few Alliance powers also allow this.

Forex: "Search him." The guard captain snarled. The guards stripped the man none too gently, but found nothing. Suspicious, the captain looked at the waitress in the corner of the pub and demanded her be searched as well. Something was causing the sheep and cows in this region to die horribly.
The men more eagerly stripped the waitress for she was comely, but they fell back when they saw the Thorned Dagger tattoo on her back shoulderblade. She spun to them and began to cry in a loud voice that echoed with portents of the Unknowable as she drew magic into herself.
"Fools. The Lord of the Dagger will always..."
The guard captain's crossbow quarrel punched through her breastbone, and pinned her to the wall of the tavern.
Tue Jun 23 2009 4:09 pm #

Member

Bump.
Tue Jun 22 2010 6:45 pm #

Member

Argh. I was going to answer the debate going on here, but MJ already got to it with the same thing I was thinking. The player's knowledge doesn't translate, it's a roll for it, yadda yadda.

Maybe I should check the forum more often.
Tue Jun 22 2010 10:38 pm #

Moderator

Don't kick yourself, Brock--the last post on this thread before Eric bumped it up for Maxx to see was a year ago.

--M. J. Young
Wed Jun 23 2010 5:38 am #

Member

Oh, wow. I should really check the timestamps lol.