Wait.  What?  Then what IS it supposed to do?  What other purpose is there to classification?

It might not be the primary method of finding a game one would like to play in (or know about for whatever reason), but it is one way to do so.  I don't see that it serves any other purpose.
This message was last edited by the user at 22:14, Sat 29 Aug 2009.

In reply to daniel_t (msg #210):

No, the Fantasy tag is not useless in that combination.  By specifying it, I don't end up with the Vampire game, which suits me just fine.

However, the point is that by selecting extra tags, in addition to Fantasy, it reduces the number of results (as opposed to just selecting Fantasy).

That's how the system is designed to work.  Selecting multiple tags reduces the number of hits.  Obviously this is not quite as vital with the smaller categories, as you'd expect.

Simple.  They are to give you a broad idea of what the game is about.  IF the tags match what you are looking for, then you can go on to look at the game to see if it is a match for you.

What the game is actually about is not something we can effectively do a tag system for without having thousands of tags. ^^;

If I am misunderstanding your question, and seem dense because of it, sorry.

@Zag24 and ornot;

BBR said it infinitely more eloquently than I could have, and than I've tried to in the past (in this same post).

Facemaker, however, brings up the best point; we're getting (back) into circular arguments. For now can we put the debate on the merits of Fantasy and the intentions of the system aside to try and come to a consensus about the rest of the tags in the context of the current system? For ease I'll quote myself *again* from two pages ago, with a genre list (plus oriental/wuxia)

Anime
Arena
Comedy
Contemporary
Discussion
Dystopian
Fantasy (HOTLY CONTESTED)
Historical
Horror
Oriental/Wuxia
RPoL Forums
Sci-Fi
Strategy
Super Hero
Supernatural
Western

Now, I'll remind everyone that there were still debates going on about Wuxia vs Asian vs Oriental vs Martial Arts as the valid 'Eastern' type of tag. I'm, personally, still not sold on which one to use (if any).

I've essentially dropped 'Pokemon/Digimon' as a genre (it's well represented by other genres), combined 'Werewolf' and 'Vampire' into a 'Supernatural' tag (distinct, imo, from fantasy in that it's taking natural elements and making them 'super' in some way), and smooshed 'Cyberpunk' and 'Post Holocaust' into 'Dystopian' which could include both/either/neither for it, too (just to recap).

If what you are trying to say is what BBR said, then I'll agree with you (on both points).  BBR said that the category search is intended to help someone find a game they will like, by narrowing down the choices to a number for which reading the intros (at least) is a manageable task.  Of course no one is going to choose a game based purely on its tags (at least, I hope not).  But without meaningful tags to search on, the number of choices is too large to read every game description.

I would certainly say that, used that way, the tag system "assists you in finding games."  It doesn't complete the process, but it does start it, and the job would be daunting without it.

Honestly, I don't think that the tagging system is all that bad.  As BBR pointed out, with just a few searches, you can narrow down to a list that is reasonable to look at all the descriptions.

The biggest problem is locating a game that has only a single tag on it, especially if that tag is "Fantasy."  Since there is no way to search on, say, "Fantasy and NOT Western and NOT Contemporary."   If the game that you would really want, if only you could find it, has only that tag, you aren't very likely to find it through the tagging system.

What about just changing the tag to be "Fatastical"?  That would encourage GMs to use that tag along with some other (like Medieval).

Or just encourage all GMs to put at least two tags on their games.

I say keep Oriental/Wuxia 'as is'. I think it'll work.

I also think Mystery should be added in there. I've seen argued in another thread how Mystery would fit in under Strategy, but, as I pointed out in the same thread, nobody searches up Strategy, because they think of Strategy as games like Chess or Othelo. Those that wish to search Mystery, can't, because they don't know to look in Strategy, if any Mystery games are actually there.

As for Fantasy, it's simple. Does the game have magic, mystical creatures, and/or take place in a mystical setting? If so, then your game probably qualifies for the Fantasy tag, if not, then you should probably consider using some other tags before coming back to Fantasy. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. If it so happens that 99% of the games under the Fantasy tag actually fit, so be it. Fantasy IS rather popular.

jase said he was going to look into doing that (or that he is doing it?) earlier in the thread. I think it'll be a really great option, too.

It works, if you are familiar with what Wuxia is.  Until the term came up in this thread, I would have thought it was a made-up term if I happened to stumble across it.  I do think that there's merit to the category, however...I tend to regard martial arts movies as a genre unto themselves--while, for instance, there's a huge difference between Rumble in the Bronx and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, there are also a lot of common elements (though many of those tend to be stylistic, more than content.)  I would, however, prefer a tag that explains it to those of us who aren't already well-indoctrinated with the genre.



I'm of two minds on this one.  I can, to some extent, see the need for it, though to me, mystery is more of a plot and less of a genre (but, then again, I'm not an avid mystery reader and the fact that there is, in fact, such a category of novels does speak volumes--no pun intended--about the fact that there is a distinctive style of story that has a well-established fan base for those kinds of tales).  My only hesitation comes from the thought that ANY genre can have a mystery in it...but, then again, someone did ask about how to categorize a hypothetical Sherlock Holmes game earlier and I'd agree, Mystery would be a more logical place, to me, to start looking than Strategy (which I'd associate more with games associated with political intrigue, macro-scale military combat, resource management, and the like).

So, I guess I'd have to put myself on the 'yes' side of the line for this one...with a few toes on the line...*grin*

I agree with you on the Fantasy statement (it IS a rather popular genre and kind of the 'grandaddy of them all')...and, I think, because of that, it's also kind of the 'default'...when someone isn't really sure what other genres a game should be listed under, the easy answer is often to list it as Fantasy.  That, however, is not a problem that could be easily solved by simply breaking it up into other, smaller categories...

Tis why I suggest keeping the two together as one, so that people can infer the rest. And that's also what the tag description is for, as well. It's not anyone else's fault if a person doesn't read tag descriptions.



Which is why I suggested they look over the others first before using Fantasy as the 'default'. Maybe that should be in there somewhere when choosing tags? If you're not sure it should have a certain tag, look at the others before coming back to it.

uh guys you all forget, Wuxia is a TERM for martial arts novels, it is not exactly a genre or setting, in such cases most movie and bookstores I go to have movies classes as either Martial arts, in which case all martial arts films are kept. Same as eith bookstores and the local library, everything that is of martil arts is in that local and as such marked as martil arts. Not as Wuxia. So in which case using the term Martial Arts works best and looks better as well.

Zeldi; we don't forget, it's just not important to the discussion over whether or not it would be readily understood for what it means and the type of game that would use it.

Nah, I actually do think it's important...it goes back to my point of people who don't READ Wuxia having no idea what it is.  Even when in combination with Oriental...that gives me a little clearer hint, sure, but that's kind of like referring to American Westerns as Historical Fiction...technically, they are, but the Historical Fiction label becomes misleading if you're looking for a Western.

Yeah, I grant you, having the definition available helps...but I'm thinking in terms of the guy who's just browsing games to see what looks intriguing.  He's not likely to read all the descriptions of the different categories, he's just going to look at the category list and see what looks intriguing.  If the category title is unclear to him, odds are good he's not going to look for the definition to clarify it...he's going to get on with browsing games, in those categories which ARE clear to him.

How do I know this?  Because that's what I would do, if I was just idly curious and looking around.  I'm far more likely to understand what is being suggested by a 'Martial Arts' tag than by a 'Wuxia' tag (because, even now, having had the term explained to me, I still only feel like I've got a vague grasp of it...)

That's what I thought until I looked into it. The trouble is that lots of games that don't fit those criterion are being tagged fantasy. Ironically ToU prevent me from pointing out specific examples, but they're not hard to find. Fantasy is tagged whenever a setting includes anything impossible in reality, making genuine fantasy games hard to find. Obviously this is down to the users, so I have advocated making the descriptions and titles clearer, and possibly breaking fantasy down into 2 or more categories that are more self explanatory.

The more I debate this, the more convinced I become that genres and the categorisation they impose are impossible to maintain, since noone can agree on what a category should include. Even clearly understood categories eg. Western, are subverted by the perfectly normal process of mixing things up. Take a look. Western is mostly used in concert with sci fi for Firefly games, or Horror for Deadlands games. One could ditch it entirely as too niche. Genuine Westerns would still be covered by Historical.

Perhaps we should ask ourselves a more fundamental question. What are we using the genre system for? Is it simply a holdover from an earlier iteration of RPoL? If so, what do we lose from ditching it entirely? It relies upon consistent tagging by gms, which we aren't seeing, and consistent interpretation by users, which we small band can't even agree on between ourselves. You can still search without them, and probably get back better results, since you won't miss those games that have been accidentally tagged inappropriately. I'm no computer whiz, but ditching it altogether removes the need for a chunk of code in the server's cache, and means each game uses 3 less bits or whatever.

Will anyone step up to defend genres as something we can't do without?

By your opinion of what constitutes Fantasy.  Which, as we've seen here, is not necessarily the same as the GM's opinion.


As long as you know the name of the GM, or at least one significant word in the title of the game.  The genres are there for when you don't know the GM, or don't have a specific game in mind, but have a rough idea of the sort of thing you're looking for.


Reducing the size of the game list produced by a Search result (even if the list is produced by just the Fantasy tag) means less work for the server.  The saving on the game record size is not really significant compared to that.

I'm one of the only people who has said what I expect from a fantasy game. That is what my definition was all about. It was you that said a GM was the one to determine whether a given game was fantasy and advocated that the criterion to be used be left completely open.



Again you have been quite adamant that the genres are not for finding games. I'm really not all that sure what purpose one might have for browsing games if not to play one, but just supposing one is, say, looking for something to read, plugging a few words relevant to your interest such as "space", "twilight" or "dragon" will do a similar job to tagging a genre. It does rely on the GM using words like that in their game title, but we already rely on them selecting the right genre, so what's the difference?



And yet you are entirely anti any move to limit the number of games returned by the fantasy tag, from the 1000 or so it currently generates. I realise that you can self limit by selecting additional tags, but as has been aptly demonstrated by another poster, just selecting those additional tags whittles your list down to virtually the same number of games. The saving on server load of one less game in your search list is also pretty insignificant.

Pardon me for saying so, but you appear to be arguing entirely for maintaining the status quo, which is fair enough, but be honest about it. Don't tell us you are open to change if you aren't.

Frankly it's no skin off my nose if things don't change. The site works. I find new games to play in Players Wanted, and I'm not much interested in playing traditional fantasy anyway. The best games I've played have all been through referral from other players, and the worst have been traditional fantasy. I just think that if the system can be improved, it should.

No, I disagree with your definition, and feel that the current definition (with minor tweaks) is superior to it.  I did, however, point out that if a GM chooses to apply his own definition, there is nothing anybody can do about it.

No, I haven't.  MM is the one who has been saying that the genres aren't meant to be used for searching.  My own view is that the genres should be used for finding games, but in conjunction with the other options available (such as Wanted - Players and personal referals).  If you're going to use genres though, you should at least use them in the most efficient manner (by selecting all the ones that you think might fit what you're looking for).

Not exactly.  True, I don't see the number of Fantasy games as a problem, but if I see an alternative that I think will actually work better than the current system, then I'll say so.

Yes, with those specific tags (the first ones that came to mind).  With other tags, the reduction may be more significant.  Feel free to check all the other combinations, if you have the time.

Edit: You asked why we have genres at all.  Compare the result of searching for those three with the total number of active games seeking players on the whole site.  Six games, compared to 2,556.  That's where the saving on server resources comes in, and that is why we have genres.

I thought I'd been very clear on this - I'm not open to all change.  I am, however, open to improvements.
This message was last edited by a moderator at 10:03, Sun 30 Aug 2009.

Funny to me that one of the most impassioned voices for re-defining Fantasy/breaking it into sub-genres apparently doesn't enjoy playing traditional fantasy games (at least, on here.)  Of course, here I am, the guy who's declared several times in the past that I'm limiting myself to just one game on here because I don't know if I'll have time to devote to more than that, also arguing about the usefulness of browsing games...*chuckle*

The arguments made in support of the status quo haven't been, in my perception, because they feel that the system needs no improvements.  It's just that many of the suggestions made thus far don't actually seem to be improvements, necessarily--they create as many or more problems than they solve, which doesn't seem like a good way to proceed (unless you work for Microsoft, then apparently it's Standard Operational Procedure).

The fact that nobody else has been making suggestions for changes is due, in my case, certainly, to the fact that, even though I can see problems with the system as it now stands, I CAN'T see a solution that solves those problems effectively without creating a fresh set.  Since the problems that are in place now are relatively minor and people seem to be dealing with them quite well, for the most part, it's kind of a case of 'Better the devil you know...'

As for the somewhat dubious proposal to remove the tags altogether...even though I'm not currently interested in joining another game, I do occasionally like to poke around and see what's out there.  And, depending on my mood, I might look for a fantasy game, or a sci-fi game...or something else.  Oftentimes when browsing, I'm not even concerned about whether or not a game is looking for new players...I'm just curious, or I'm looking for something to jar me out of writer's block, or fishing for some form of inspiration (if I'm looking for another game to join, after all, it's been mentioned repeatedly that the WP forum is THE place to look, first and foremost).  But I do use the search system occasionally, and have no real complaints with it as is.  As I've stated in a couple of prior posts, there are some categories that could be added...there are some suggestions that have been made to eliminate others that I'm still mulling in my mind (for instance, I'm not altogether sold on the idea of combining Werewolf, Vampire, and Horror into Supernatural, which has been suggested a couple of times now, I just haven't really come up with a good way to express my hesitation/opposition yet).

I don't think the suggestion was for Vampire, Werewolf and Horror to be merged into Supernatural. My understanding was that we'd keep Horror along with Supernatural. You can have a Horror game without Supernatural elements, and you can have a Supernatural game that is not Horror. There are a lot of games that have both vampires and werewolves (along with ghosts, demons, etc.) but they're not necessarily Horror. These games get classified as Horror because traditionally that's what stories with vampire's and werewolves have been, and there is no other tag that fits them. But the typical Horror fan isn't looking for a Buffy or Twilight game.
This message was last edited by the user at 15:49, Sun 30 Aug 2009.

To be clear: I've been saying that genres IN CONJUNCTION WITH OTHER METHODS (such as adding one of BBR's system tags, or other defining terms) are meant to be used to find a specific game... but NOT to find games to play in. That is was Wanted - Players is for. It's meant for browsing and looking through games, not getting anything more than a basic idea (through title and genres) of what it might be about. You can't currently look through a list of games and find out anything about them without actually going into them; that's as it should be, in my opinion. If you want to find out more about a game... you have to actually look in a game. If you don't want to do that, you can look through wanted - players; that's the basic functionality of how to find a game on RPoL... and I like it. I think changing it would be a detriment, NOT an improvement, which is why I'm so vehement against it.

Facemaker, Nightowl's right; I wasn't advocating getting rid of horror at all o.O It was still on my list, at least. Did anyone actually advocate for removing it?

There were earlier suggestions for it...*grin*  Guess this highlights another part of the problem in this discussion.  There have been a lot of suggestions made and when one bears a lot of resemblance to another, it's hard to keep from associating the two suggestions in your mind and including responses to unpleasant aspects of the first when responding to the second.

No, I don't see any way to fix that particular problem, either...*grin*  But I stand corrected.  So, I guess you can chalk me up as another one tentatively supporting MM's proposal for that particular change (while there tend to be dramatic differences in how the vampire/werewolf games I've been involved with in the past have run, I don't regard them as major enough to demand separation when there's an acceptable blanket genre to cover them both...)

Yeah, because a Vampire or Werewolf game will usually be either Supernatural or Horror (or perhaps both). :-)

Another side effect though of the fact that they tend to be different styles is that they tend to have different kinds of story/game titles.  :-)  This has been true even before a certain company started producing a certain game world.

I do not think that merging some of the tags into Supernatural and Horror would slow most people down too much when they look for a game. :-)

There are 153 games that use the Vampire tag and 82 games that use the Werewolf tag. Of those, 57 use both tags. I guess it just makes sense to me to put them both under the same tag. A Supernatural tag would also cover witches. I don't think most people would characterize a game based on the TV show "Charmed" as Horror. Some of those games get tagged as Fantasy-Horror, but they might drop both those tags in favor of Supernatural if given the choice, and that would remove a handful of games from the bloated Fantasy category. I'm in a few games right now that are more Supernatural than they are Horror. As burlingk pointed out, some games could use both tags. I'm in one of those, too. Tagging it as Supernatural Horror would separate it from other kinds of Horror games. And, as I said before, there are a lot of Vampire, Werewolf, and Supernatural games that aren't really Horror.

What about adding a "Humanoid" genre for games with humans, elves and dwarves ? A "Role-Play" one could grand-father all the others too.

If we add Supernatural, I fear we will have the same problem as with Fantasy. Everyone knows what's a Vampire or a Werewolf game but who knows exactly what a Supernatural game is ? I've been reading this thread so I know what the "intended use" is but it will not necesseraly be the case for all other future GMs.

Then perhaps we should just drop Vampire and Werewolf and merge them into Horror. They just seem too specific to me. As you said, we don't have tags for Elves or Dwarves, or for that matter Witches, Demons, Zombies, and so on. Why single out just Vampires and Werewolves? There are several Zombie games, and game systems exclusively written for them ("All Flesh Must Be Eaten"), but Zombies don't get their own tag.

Personally, I think there are games with Supernatural elements that are not Horror, and a Supernatural tag would be most useful. But if we can't get Supernatural added to the available options, I'd still like to see Vampire and Werewolf dropped from the list.

I would agree that, if we were considering putting Vampire and Werewolf on the list, it wouldn't be worth it, for the reasons that you describe.  On the other hand, I don't really see that it is worth the trouble to take them off, now that they are there.  (At least, not until they are doing other changes to the list, so it is essentially free.)  They are extremely well-defined and well understood, and they aren't causing any confusion.