I'm not saying I have all the right answers on rulings, I'm saying there's plenty that could (and will...) be discussed.

 A torch is an improvised one-handed weapon. (ref: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipm...vival-gear#TOC-Torch )
 A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. (ref: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons )
 A unicorn has no hand. (ref: https://img1.etsystatic.com/00...l.373945583_7zcm.jpg )

 Are you really going to force a 350 round play-out when we've clearly established a unicorn can't attack with a torch? ;)

1) Voluntarily dropping with intent/aim to deal damage is a STANDARD action. Doing so without a touch attack to deal damage to the target would be FREE. The difference is whether you can deal damage to a target below or not. RAW, not reality. And it would drop the target prone every time, no save since it is willing (and succeeding on an Acrobatics to reduce damage would equally reduce damage dealt, so it would be pointless).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamema...l-rules/#TOC-Falling

2) The rules don't say it's an area attack, but it doesn't say it isn't either. It can be a touch attack OR reflex save (one implies missile and the other implies area). I'd have a hard time believing that if I dropped a colossal tarrasque corpse on a crowd of peasants that only one unfortunate peasant would be squished while the others magically wriggled through its remains unscathed. The rules are mum about whether larger objects are area effects, but it seems to be the only sensible way to approach it. Of course, a LIVING falling object is going to take more damage than their target in nearly every possible case of this.

3) An object falling less than 30 feet and weighing less than their volume deals half listed damage (if an object is both, it deals 1/4 listed damage). So the unicorn would be dropping 10-20 feet each round to deal 1d6 to the swarm (Touch AC negates or Reflex for half) while taking an automatic 1-2d6 for himself (no save). That's...that's insane and brutal. Especially since he's going to take swarm damage and need a saving throw at the end of the swarm's next turn.

4) The rules are foggy about "hands" and improvised attacks. It never actually says what can and can't pick up a weapon or who can and can't wear what items. It's extremely vague and left open to interpretation. It doesn't strike me as impossible for a flying horse with the worst acne ever on its forehead to grab a torch in its mouth and try to whack bugs with it...however, definitely a -4 impromptu penalty and it would be an off-hand.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:34, Wed 21 Oct 2015.

In the name of time, I'll waive the dropping for reflex save attacks (though the unicorn could do a fair number without worry with 48 current hp and 4d8+14 healing), and go straight to the torches.  If everyone's okay with Arkrim's ruling on the torch attack, the unicorn has about 40 attacks at +2 (10 - 4 - 5 +1), and 40 at +4 (10 -4 -5 +1 +2 charge) before aid runs out, then 135 at +1, and 135 at +3 (as above without aid).

I'm going to roll those in a minute and post them.  At only 1 damage each, if there aren't hits equal to Ankou's hp, it's a draw.  If there are, Thraxis wins and Ankou takes 2nd.

Ankou's admitted there's nothing the bugs can do to effect the match, and the unicorn can't fail its fly checks so the attack rolls are all that matter (unless he decides to start moving the bugs around and provoking extra attacks).

If there are issues with it, I'm fine with re-rolling or whatever to get things straightened out.

Rolls:
23:57, Yesterday: Thraxis rolled 198 using 20d20+2.  Aid no charge vs AC 18 (1-20 of 40).
23:57, Yesterday: Thraxis rolled 223 using 20d20+2.  Aid no charge vs AC 18 (21-40 of 40).
23:58, Yesterday: Thraxis rolled 205 using 20d20.  Aid and charge (+4 to die rolls) vs ac 18 (1-20 of 40).
23:58, Yesterday: Thraxis rolled 203 using 20d20.  Aid and charge (+4 to die rolls) vs ac 18 (21-40 of 40). I had tried to get it to let me roll them all at once, it said I couldn't w/ more than 20 dice being recorded. I unchecked record each die, then realized that wasn't going to work and reduced to 20 dice without re-checking record each die.  Didn't notice until copy-paste time.

Also, the only way to get more than 7 or so at a time was to do the d20's and add the modifiers after, so the modifiers that need to be added are listed in the roll description and theoretical hits are bolded.  The Rolls are divided into paragraphs by bonus for easier reading.

23:59, Yesterday: Thraxis rolled 188 using 20d20 with rolls of 1,1,8,8,20,4,1,11,14,11, 13,6,14,17,3,19,7,20,9,1.  Aid no charge vs AC 18 +2 to shown dice (1-20 of 40).
23:59, Yesterday: Thraxis rolled 198 using 20d20 with rolls of 1,7,14,20,1,2,13,4,4,13, 11,3,13,15,12,6,5,15,19,20.  Aid no charge vs AC 18 +2 to shown dice (21-40 of 40).

00:00, Today: Thraxis rolled 184 using 20d20 with rolls of 1,6,11,16,1,11,18,2,8,3, 12,1,4,2,11,13,20,11,15,18.  Aid and charge (+4 to die rolls) vs ac 18 (1-20 of 40).
00:00, Today: Thraxis rolled 200 using 20d20 with rolls of 17,3,10,4,9,20,17,12,13,1,15,1,17,4,6,14,19,4,2,12.  Aid and charge (+4 to die rolls) vs ac 18 (21-40 of 40).


00:07, Today: Thraxis rolled 197 using 20d20 with rolls of 14,2,1,5,3,20,2,7,19,13,12,9,19,2,11,20,17,18,1,2.  no aid, no charge +1 added to rolls (1-20 of 135).
00:07, Today: Thraxis rolled 214 using 20d20 with rolls of 18,8,10,17,8,2,19,11,6,18, 4,13,20,4,17,6,2,7,12,12.  no aid, no charge +1 added to rolls (21-40 of 135).
00:07, Today: Thraxis rolled 203 using 20d20 with rolls of 14,7,4,17,12,9,10,6,2,14, 2,18,15,16,5,7,9,14,11,11.  no aid, no charge +1 added to rolls (41-60 of 135).
00:07, Today: Thraxis rolled 185 using 20d20 with rolls of 6,3,14,1,14,4,7,9,8,10, 17,4,17,8,14,16,10,10,9,4.  no aid, no charge +1 added to rolls (61-80 of 135).
00:07, Today: Thraxis rolled 188 using 20d20 with rolls of 18,3,11,14,1,16,7,12,11,15, 5,7,1,7,2,9,16,16,6,11.  no aid, no charge +1 added to rolls (81-100 of 135).
00:08, Today: Thraxis rolled 198 using 20d20 with rolls of 17,14,11,3,5,19,8,4,19,17, 2,1,2,5,17,10,15,14,9,6.  no aid, no charge +1 added to rolls (101-120 of 135).
00:08, Today: Thraxis rolled 187 using 15d20 with rolls of 14,3,20,9,5,13,17,15,12,18,17,16,12,9,7.  no aid, no charge +1 added to rolls (121-135 of 135).


I'm seeing over 40 hits without even getting to the rolling of 135 at +3.  Even if Ankou found ways to deny the charge without provoking, there are still over 26 hits without the charge bonus or the other 135 rolls.  Anyone want me to roll those out, or is Ankou going to require that we post round by round?

OOC: Thraxis, talk about counting eggs before they hatch...or even before you see the eggs. You go and roll a lot of useless attack rolls. You need to read the ENTIRETY of my previous post before you go spamming this thread any further. You didn't even wait for Ankou to respond.

And inevitably it won't come to attack rolls. Unicorns don't have reach and you don't autopass hover checks. It will be a combination of things.

If you guys are doing ANYTHING OTHER THAN A MUTUALLY AGREED UPON DRAW, it will be ROUND BY ROUND. Deal with it.

This message was last edited by the GM at 04:57, Wed 21 Oct 2015.

 Regarding your point #4, Arkrim:
 http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG...ndArmor/weapons.html
 

quote:

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand.

 RAW seems pretty clear; you need a hand to wield a weapon.

 Besides it sets a weird precedent. Could someone use a weapon with their feet? Could a snake use a weapon with their tail or an octopus with their tentacles? (assuming they have the brains to do it, one way or an other)

 Arkrim, could you clarify your position on wielding weapons with one's mouth? You've said it didn't strike you as impossible; is that your official ruling?
 If so, could you specify the penalties (-4 would be the same as a wizard using a longsword with their good hand), the reach, and whether it is a ranged or melee attack. Thanks.

 Thraxis, we can still call this a draw (centipedes have few options, but that doesn't mean they are going to wait helplessly for your unicorn to burn them...)

OOC:  Quick question whether unicorn can wield a torch or not is it not a weapon and the swarm is immune to weapon damage.  I am not that well verses in messing with swarms that's why I ask before does a swarm take damage from a person hold a torch in a space it enters?  I tried to find an answer searching it but only found debates about whether or not you can use a torch against a swarm immune to weapon damage.  Also this size swarm does not take damage from flaming enchant on weapons I read that in my search don't have the source handy but can go back and dig it up if you like.

Thraxis in my opinion unless GM makes a ruling that it does take damage from a torch being in the same space as swarm, you need to show an official source saying it does. Earlier in the interest of moving the game along Ankou took the damage from the torch on the wall.  I do not believe he agreed that it does he was just being nice.

So just take the draw and let's move on.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:30, Wed 21 Oct 2015.

ooc: hmm... I didn't even consider that. So apparently in Pathfinder torches and flaming weapons do not damage a swarm (of fine/diminutive creatures). Nor does a spell causing fire damage, unless it is an area effect (and then it does +50%).

 I'm sure if I was running a game where this occurred, I would let the characters try and do something with the torches though. 

OOC:  I appologize GM for asking for your ruling in previous post yet another post I vomit words before I truely realize what I'm saying.   As one of the combatants in this match I call for a vote on the following two items:

A) 1) Is a beast without opposable thumbs able to wield a weapon with its limbs?  2) If said creature has a mouth is it able to wield a weapon with it?

B) 1) Does a torch's fire do fire damage to a Diminutive swarm?



My vote

A) 1) YES, it would be inaccurate and unstabke but I believe its is plausable, 2) YES, again not easily done, a little side note I think in this case with a torch if it is in its mouth a Fortitude save vs nasea from smoke inhalation is needed as well as a reflex save to not burn itself should be needed in either case.


B) 1) NO, the swarm consists of 1,500 vermin swining the torch about my kill a few but not enough to matter.  Lets say you kill 10 centipede in one smack thats some awsome aim and luck.  You just killed 2/3 of 1% which is .31 HP and when it comes to rounding we round down right so that is 0 damage.  You would have to kill 49 in one hit to equal 1 HP.
This message was last edited by the player at 14:11, Wed 21 Oct 2015.

EDIT: Do you have a cite on fire damage is weapon damage, Grunyar?  Turn post coming up.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:42, Wed 21 Oct 2015.

We can both self-mutilate until we're below 50hp ; would that work ?
Or you can come down and the swarm will munch on your hooves until your down below 50% hp.
Anyway, I think RAI is that you can't concede a fight when things don't go your way on a whim, but this is quite different and obviously a stalemate.

A = Ankou's minions  (Centipede Swarm) -- initiative 20
T = Thraxis' monster (Half-Celestial Unicorn) -- initiative 6



   ROUND: Round 7 (6)
POSITION: (B7;C8)+1 to (F3;G4)+2
 ACTIONS: fly to (F3;G4)+2 (move), draw a torch with mouth (move)


Half-Celestial Unicorn,  HP 42/42
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG....html#half-celestial
EFFECTS: Aid-6 temp hp (7/90)
   GEAR: none (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USED ABILITIES: Aid

 SUMMARY:  The unicorn flies up and pulls out a torch.

 ROLLS:
(still can't fail the under half speed fly check)

 OOC:

I liked the first version of your previous post better...

I figured if you were willing to argue your heart out to deny me 100 bp, at no benefit to yourself, I could at least put in the effort to get the 100 bp, at no cost to anyone else.

I don't want to concede a defeat if the rules of the game say otherwise. I have no idea what the benefits to either of us are.
I actually think it's dangerous to consider that. Next step is arranging a draw to maximize our gain. Austria-Germany 1982 style.

Regarding Grunyar's point, the problem is not that the 1 point fire damage from the torch is also weapon damage (though it seems like it is), but that swarms are immune to any spell or effect that doesn't affect an area.

 Let's wait for Arkrim to weigh in on this though, we might have a houserule that says otherwise.

They are not immune to anything that is not area damage.  They are immune to weapon damage and take extra damage from area effects.
The fire damage from the torch is not weapon damage (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning), it is fire damage.  From Grunyar's example of it hitting several centipedes, it's not that it hits them (it doesn't depend on direct impact for the damage like slashing/piercing/bludgeoning, but it striking the swarm as a whole, it burns some of them (enough of them to constitute 1 hp of damage).

I did not get a chance to pour threw my history but just was flaming weapon is a single target and you can not target a swarm with single target.  In d&d 3.5 you could damage with energy from weapon but pathfinder did not bring that over.

My own thoughts if flaming weapon had an effect outside of the single target would it not also effect things like obscuring mist?

OOC:

Torch:

If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.

+1 fire damage to the WEAPON DAMAGE...which the swarm is immune to.

I still think a kraken can pick up a weapon in its tendrils and a unicorn can pick up a torch in its mouth. But it would not only be an OFFHAND it would also be -4 IMPROMPTU penalty. RAW is COMPLETELY mum about this. There is no definitive answer. I'm just filling in the hole with my own opinion.

But it doesn't matter in this case either way. +1 fire or no +1 fire, that would still be WEAPON DAMAGE.

If you're going to fight there is only one possibility:

(falling object damage) vs. (falling damage + swarm damage + distraction).

That's it. There are no other options other than calling it a draw. So call it a draw or let the unicorn smash itself against the floor until it is dead. I know a lot of folks who would pay big money to see that.

If the next post in this thread is anything other than Centipede Swarm and Unicorn agreeing to a draw or the Unicorn pummeling its body against the swarm and floor, I will disqualify the poster.

END OF DISCUSSION.

I agree to draw to avoid disqualification, I guess.

(I can't post a combat post the unicorn attacking, as it would be out of turn as it would be a foul, and Ankou can't post his combat turn, as it wouldn't be the unicorn attacking.)

OOC: That's a foul just for sassing me. You guys have the option of playing it out or agreeing to a draw. I specified no turn order, only the sole two plausible options left. There are no other possibilities so you have to pick one. You're choosing draw. If Ankou chooses draw too, you're good. If he wants to play it out then you have a new dispute and I get to pick which you have to do.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:36, Thu 22 Oct 2015.

 Draw it is.

 (my turn would be "climb on the wall" so there would be little falling damage possibility left)

That's game, then.

Arkrim: I'll take the foul, I'm not trying to argue that at all.  I just wanted to put this here to apologize (public offense -> public apology).  I'm sorry for the sass in my previous post.  I know you are very serious about your posts being taken verbatim, and it's your game so I was not going to debate any decision you had made for it, nor disobey your post while arguing my good intentions.  At the same time, I wanted to let the others know why I was choosing to draw at this point after having fought for the chance to win for a couple of days.  I worded it poorly, and disrespectfully, and I am sorry.

OOC: Fair enough. I'm sorry I called you names. It's the most stressful time of the year for me and it's down to just be keeping this thing running, but that's no excuse.

I'm serious when I say I don't have time for push back. It's not that you guys don't deserve a say, it's that I simply don't have time to give says after I've been called in. Please don't call the GM in to settle a dispute until your peace has been said because once I'm here, that's it. No more opinions other than mine. Not trying to be mean, I just don't have time to argue.

Okay, so which of your monsters died first? There's a lot of jibber jabber in this match to sift through.
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:39, Thu 22 Oct 2015.

First to lose all his minions:  Grunyar  (round 5)

Then: Edward (round 6)

Last and unable to kill each other: Thraxis & Ankou

WINNER: Nobody!
DRAW: Thraxis & Ankou
RUNNERUP: Edward