Ugrim begins shouting more things at the fish but it takes no heed of the orcs words. Granted, telling the fish to eat the other combatants probably isn't something the fish could do. Instead, it simply takes a step to the north, breaths in a big breath and expels a mighty jet of water towards the demon.

while the attack dealt hardly any damage, the blast was strong enough to push the creature forcefully into the wall and force it to concentrate on it's spell.


A = Ario's Large Earth Elemental
N1 = Nyssa's Vermlek
N2 = Nyssa's Wax Golem
U = Ugrim's Grodair



   ROUND: Round 1 (8)

Grodair: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...gical-beasts/grodair

Position: A10 to A9

Actions: 5-foot step to A9 (Free), Water Blast Vermiek (N1) (Standard)

66/66 HP

16:48, Today: Ugrim rolled 17 using 1d20+7 with rolls of 10.  Water blast. (vs touch AC)
16:48, Today: Ugrim rolled 1 using 1d8 with rolls of 1.  Damage.
16:51, Today: Ugrim rolled 18 using 1d20+11 with rolls of 7.  Free Combat Maneuver Check: Bull Rush CMD15.

Summary: Ugrim's Grodair deals 1 water damage to N1 and succeeds on initiating a bull rush with it's attack.

Seeing as theres no real answer in the rules about what to do when you're bull rushed while casting, I opt to treat the situation as if you were being grappled or pinned. So a DC22 caster level check is required to maintain the spell.

I'm pretty sure that if it doesn't say anything happens, then, RAW, nothing happens.

Also, since it would move me into a solid object, the bull rush automatically fails in any case.

Well, it doesn't say that the bull rush fails.  It says that they can't be bull rushed into squares with obstacles.  While bull rush says nothing about provoking a concentration, I'd call getting shoved to a wall by a jet of water "violent motion" (which does fall under concentration checks in general) and be done with it.

Actually yeah, our FAQ section has a spot for that. Probably should have checked that before jumping to conclusions. :P
It says that any creature forcibly moved is treated as suffering from vigorous movement.

so two concentration checks then?

1 for the initial damage and one for the movement? (that would be a DC12 for the damage and then a DC 11 for the movement.)

I would argue that since I didn't actually get moved anywhere, I wasn't subject to violent motion.

I also didn't actually take damage, since I have DR.

Though, I was in the middle of posting my turn, when I realized that Ario's attack on N2 was invalid, since N2 is 15ft away from his earth elemental.

I think vigorous motion would be valid.  Getting smushed into the wall, whether you go into a new square or not, is vigorous motion.  With no damage, it'd just be a dc 12.

As for the attack being invalid, the 2nd diagonal is threatened by creatures with reach.  Official FAQ:  http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9sp8

Fair enough. (I was kinda hoping that a non-descript typeless type of damage would bypass DR but beggars can't be choosers)

I had missed that part, Ugrim.  As an extraordinary ability (and not a weapon, nor dealing weapon-typed damage) I'm not sure that damage reduction would apply.  We might want a ruling on that, and for Nyssa's sake on the vigorous movement.

I can agree with that. Nyssa, would you also like to go with a GM ruling on the effects my attack has caused?

Hmm, was remembering earlier rules and had forgotten about that update with regards to reach.

I'm pretty sure a 'pressurized blast of water' would be subject to DR -- it is clearly doing physical damage and not energy damage.

Will wait for a GM ruling on all, though.

OOC: There are times where even the most detailed research cannot find an answer because the game creators did not provide it. The water damage is untyped and damage reduction just says "weapons and most natural attacks". It is not precise, but the closest presumption I can make is to categorize pressurized water as a natural attack. Maybe if a paladin blessed this monster it would become a terrifying horror to undead, but alas, that is not what we're talking about. So DR would apply.

However, no where in the "push" monster rules does it say the target has to take damage to be moved. It only says it has to be hit. So DR or no DR, push still applies.

But I am going to require that Ugrim state, "Grodair, use WATER GUN!" every time he uses that ability...Nah, I'm just kidding. But that is too damn funny. :P

Anything else needed?
This message was last edited by the GM at 13:38, Fri 16 Oct 2015.

I think the question for 'push' was less 'does it require me to take damage,' and more, 'does it count as vigorous movement even if the bull rush doesn't move me.'

OOC: Well yeah, OBVIOUSLY an attempt to shove you is vigorous movement. Arguing violent movement and more would be questionable based on how far you're moved. I feel like I'm insulting the intelligence of the person I'm answering with a question like that. :/

Looking at the other gladiators controlling monsters, Nyssa says, "Ario, you do realize it's impossible for my dretches to actually scratch your elemental?  Nor can they poison it -- kill the other guy while I have him at a disadvantage!"


A = Ario's Large Earth Elemental
N1 = Nyssa's Vermlek
N2 = Nyssa's Wax Golem
N3 = Dretch 1
N4 = Dretch 2
N5 = Dretch 3
U = Ugrim's Grodair
   ROUND: Round 1 (17)

(N1) Vermlek http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia.../demon/demon-vermlek

POSITION: J10 to J4
 ACTIONS:  Complete Summon Monster II (Free), Cast Mass Inflict Light Wounds (Standard), Move to J4 while drawing sword (move)

 HP: 30/30 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 15; FFAC: 15; Touch: 9
CMD: 15; FFCMD: 15; FFTAC: 9

EFFECTS: -
   GEAR: - Longsword (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: - Summon Monster 1/1, Mass Inflict Light Wounds 1/3

(N3) Dretch http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...tsiders/demon/dretch

POSITION: D9 to B9
 ACTIONS:  Charge U (Full, provokes from A)

 HP: 18/18 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 12; FFAC: 12; Touch: 9
CMD: 10; FFCMD: 10; FFTAC: 9

EFFECTS: - Summoned 1/3
   GEAR: -  (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: - Stinking Cloud 0/1

(N3) Dretch http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...tsiders/demon/dretch

POSITION: E8 to B8
 ACTIONS:  Charge U (Full, provokes from A)

 HP: 18/18 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 12; FFAC: 12; Touch: 19
CMD: 10; FFCMD: 10; FFTAC: 19

EFFECTS: - Summoned 1/3
   GEAR: -  (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: - Stinking Cloud 0/1

(N2) Wax Golem http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...ucts/golem/golem-wax

POSITION: I10 to B10
 ACTIONS: Charge U (Full, provokes from A)

 HP: 20/42 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 13; FFAC: 13; Touch: 7
CMD: 13; FFCMD: 13; FFTAC: 7

EFFECTS: -
   GEAR: -  (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: -

(N3) Dretch http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...tsiders/demon/dretch

POSITION: I5
 ACTIONS:  Cast Stinking Cloud (standard, provokes from A)

 HP: 18/18 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 14; FFAC: 14; Touch: 11
CMD: 12; FFCMD: 12; FFTAC: 11

EFFECTS: - Summoned 1/3, Stinking Cloud 1/2
   GEAR: -  (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: - Stinking Cloud 1/1

DICE:
04:05, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 9 using 1d6+3 with rolls of 6.  N2 damage.
04:05, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 24 using 1d20+8 with rolls of 16.  N2 slam attack vs U.
04:03, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 5 using 1d4+1 with rolls of 4.  N4 damage.
04:03, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 21 using 1d20+6 with rolls of 15.  N4 claw attack vs U.
04:03, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 10 using 1d20+6 with rolls of 4.  N3 claw attack vs U.
03:35, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 22 using 1d20+4 with rolls of 18.  N1 concentration for vigorious movement.
19:07, Tue 13 Oct: Nyssa Quess rolled 10 using 1d8+3 with rolls of 7.  N1 Mass Inflict Light Wounds.
18:48, Tue 13 Oct: Nyssa Quess rolled 3 using 1d4 with rolls of 3.  N1 summon number.
18:47, Tue 13 Oct: Nyssa Quess rolled 57 using 1d100 with rolls of 57.  N1 Summon success chance.
Summery: Various monsters charge, provoking AoOs from Ario, though he can only take one total unless I'm really misremembering the rules.  Ugrim creature has to make a DC 13 fort save or be nauseated from the stinking cloud.  A total of 14 damage is done to the Grodair.  Ario's creature takes 10 damage from the inflict spell, with a DC 16 will save for half.


OOC: Well, I certainly agree that it makes sense for it to be considered vigorous movement.  But as you're fond of reminding us, it's what the rules actually say that really matters, so I thought I'd make sure.  Not that it turned out to matter.

I think I have everything right, but may have made mistakes.

The Wax Golem sets off with violent intentions, but does not make it as far as it had hoped, instead going to the workshop in the sky.
After it downed the wax golem on its own, Ario ordered the earth elemental to target the boss demon next, which it did with alacrity... as odd as that was for an earth elemental.


A = Ario's Large Earth Elemental
N1 = Nyssa's Vermlek
N2 = Nyssa's Wax Golem
N3 = Dretch 1
N4 = Dretch 2
N5 = Dretch 3
U = Ugrim's Grodair

   ROUND: Round 2 (10)

Large Earth Elemental http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...arge-earth-elemental

POSITION: (G6,H7)
 ACTIONS: 5' step to (G6,H7) (free) Full attack - first on N1 (Full)

 HP: 58/68 (0 nonlethal)

EFFECTS: Charged
   GEAR: -
   USES: -

   SUMMARY:  The Earth Elemental takes his attack of opportunity on the the wax golem, and slams a massive fist into its chest.  He then stepped forward and swung at the Vermlek twice.

   DICE ROLLS:
14:54, Today: Ario rolled 32 using 1d20+12 with rolls of 20.  Earth Elemental AoO on Wax Golem's charge (AC 13).
14:55, Today: Ario rolled 21 using 2d6+14 with rolls of 1,6.  Earth Elemental AoO Damage on Wax Golem.
15:03, Today: Ario rolled 17,16 using 1d20+12,2d6+14 with rolls of 5,1,1.  Earth Elemental Full Attack, Slam 1 vs Vermlek (power attack, earth mastery).
15:03, Today: Ario rolled 23,20 using 1d20+12,2d6+14 with rolls of 11,5,1.  Earth Elemental Full Attack, Slam 2 vs Vermlek (power attack, earth mastery).
15:08, Today: Ario rolled 7 using 1d20+6 with rolls of 1.  WIll save vs inflict.

OOC: Earth elemental has no respect for your poison based cloud, but he does take the inflict to the face.

Ugrim was foaming at the mouth at this point. "KILL THEM, FISHY!!! KILL NEW DEMONS!! KILL THEM WITH DEATH! USE WATER GUN!! MAKE THINGS GO DEAD!!!"

The Grodair, surprisingly, tries to do exactly what ugrim suggested. Maybe because it actually listened to him, or maybe because that was the smartest thing to do at the moment. Regardless, the gordar deals a small bit of damage to one of the demons and manages to knock both of them to their feet, then steps out of the sloud


A = Ario's Large Earth Elemental
N1 = Nyssa's Vermlek
N2 = Nyssa's Wax Golem
N3 = Dretch 1
N4 = Dretch 2
N5 = Dretch 3
U = Ugrim's Grodair


   ROUND: Round 2 (8)

Grodair: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...gical-beasts/grodair

Position: A9 to A10

Actions: Full attack N4 and N3 (Bite and 1st Tentacle N4, 2nd Tentacle N3) (Full) 5-foot step to A10(Standard)

61/66 HP

18:10, Today: Ugrim rolled 18 using 1d20+11 with rolls of 7.  DC 13 fort save vs cloud. (Saved)
18:15, Today: Ugrim rolled 27,18,17 using 1d20+11,1d20+6,1d20+6 with rolls of 16,12,11.  Bite and 2 tentacles full attacks vs AC14. (all hit)
18:23, Today: Ugrim rolled 19,21 using 1d20+11,1d20+11 with rolls of 8,10.  Trip vs N4, trip vs N5 - CMD 12.
18:24, Today: Ugrim rolled 7,4,5 using 1d8+4,1d4+2,1d4+2 with rolls of 3,2,3.  Bite damage N4, tentacle damage N4, tentacle damage N5.

Summary: Ugrim's Grodair deals 2 damage to N4 after DR and trips both N4 and N5

OOC: Well, this might take some time. :P

Note that there is a 20% miss chance due to concealment.

I don't know, Stinking cloud says it functions like fog cloud except the clouds are natious. That might mean that instead of concealment, the clouds cause nasiua instead. ;P

But i'll roll concealment anyways just to keep things going.

19:03, Today: Ugrim rolled 34,55,25 using 1d100,1d100,1d100 with rolls of 34,55,25.  Concealment 1-20 - miss (Bite, tentacle 1, tentacle 2).

All attacks hit regardless of concelment

While the demons do their best to attack, the human looking creature blasts the elemental with negative energy -- and then reveals its own true demonic form, as its human body splits open to allow a vile looking worm to issue forth, feeding off the remains of the body.

<tt>
A = Ario's Large Earth Elemental
N1 = Nyssa's Vermlek
N2 = Nyssa's Wax Golem
N3 = Dretch 1
N4 = Dretch 2
N5 = Dretch 3
U = Ugrim's Grodair

   ROUND: Round 1 (17)

(N1) Vermlek http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia.../demon/demon-vermlek

POSITION: J4 to J3
 ACTIONS:  5ft step to J3 (Free), Cast Mass Inflict Light Wounds (Standard), Abandon Flesh (Swift)

 HP: 14/30 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 12; FFAC: 12; Touch: 9
CMD: 15; FFCMD: 15; FFTAC: 9

EFFECTS: - (not in body)
   GEAR: - (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: - Summon Monster 1/1, Mass Inflict Light Wounds 2/3

(N3) Dretch http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...tsiders/demon/dretch

POSITION: B9
 ACTIONS: Stand (move, provokes from U), Attack U (Standard)

 HP: 18/18 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 14; FFAC: 14; Touch: 11
CMD: 12; FFCMD: 12; FFTAC: 11

EFFECTS: - Summoned 2/3
   GEAR: -  (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: - Stinking Cloud 0/1

(N4) Dretch http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...tsiders/demon/dretch

POSITION: B8 to A9
 ACTIONS: Stand (move), 5ft step to A9 (free), Attack U (standard)

 HP: 16/18 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 14; FFAC: 14; Touch: 11
CMD: 12; FFCMD: 12; FFTAC: 11

EFFECTS: - Summoned 2/3
   GEAR: -  (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: - Stinking Cloud 0/1

(N2) Wax Golem http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...ucts/golem/golem-wax

(dead)

(N5) Dretch http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...tsiders/demon/dretch

POSITION: I5 to H5
 ACTIONS: 5ft step to H5, Total Defense (standard)

 HP: 18/18 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 18; FFAC: 18; Touch: 15
CMD: 16; FFCMD: 16; FFTAC: 15

EFFECTS: - Summoned 2/3, Stinking Cloud 2/2
   GEAR: -  (0 ACP, Light Load)
   USES: - Stinking Cloud 1/1

DICE:
15:06, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 5 using 1d4+1 with rolls of 4.  claw damage.
15:06, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 19 using 1d20+4 with rolls of 15.  N4 claw attack vs U.
15:02, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 15 using 1d20+4 with rolls of 11.  N3 claw attack vs U.
14:57, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 10 using 2d6+3 with rolls of 2,5.  N1 HP restored from abandon flesh.
14:54, Today: Nyssa Quess rolled 5 using 1d8+3 with rolls of 2.  N1 Mass Inflict Light Wounds.
Summery: The Vermelk uses inflict again on the elemental for 5 negative energy damage (DC 16 will save half), then sheds its body, restoring 10hp.  The two dretches near the grodair stand back up, one provoking an AoO, and claw at it, doing 5 damage.


OOC: Note that since the dretches are on the edge of the cloud but inside of it, and the grodair is outside, the dretches benefit from concealment against it, while it does not get concealment against them.

I forgot: the Vermlek would also be healed by the inflict spell.

Ignoring the clearly scared minor demon, the earth elemental steps around it and attacks the one that keeps hurting it.


A = Ario's Large Earth Elemental
N1 = Nyssa's Vermlek
N2 = Nyssa's Wax Golem
N3 = Dretch 1
N4 = Dretch 2
N5 = Dretch 3
U = Ugrim's Grodair

   ROUND: Round 3 (10)

Large Earth Elemental http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestia...arge-earth-elemental

POSITION: (G6,H7) to (G3,H4)
 ACTIONS: Move to (G3,H4)

 HP: 53/68 (0 nonlethal)

EFFECTS: -
   GEAR: -
   USES: -

   SUMMARY:  The Earth Elemental steps around the dretch and attacks the Vermlek.


   DICE ROLLS:
18:01, Today: Ario rolled 11 using 1d20+6 with rolls of 5.  WIll save vs inflict.
18:02, Today: Ario rolled 14,22 using 1d20+12,2d6+14 with rolls of 2,4,4.  Attack on Vermlek (Power attack, earth mastery). Hits out of body ac, regardless of whether Vermlek found a body to bring to the fight.

OOC: This is me wondering where your Vermlek got a body to bring into the arena.  I'm not worried about it, as it's about out of fuel for hurting the earth elemental, but Ugrim might want to call it into question.

It's part of the stats for the creature as presented in the Bestiary.

Fair enough.  Skills section has it both ways, but pretty much everything else lines up with having a body.  I had initially read the attacks as the two ways it could attack, but flavor says no weapons w/o body and the bite's bonuses are lowered to secondary.

Can you find something that backs up that claim? I'm under the impression that either your effected by the concealment that the cloud puts you under or your not.

As written "The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance)."
It says nothing about creatures getting to make attacks outside the cloud at no penalty. If you're in the cloud, you have obscured vision and your location is obscured. 20%-50% miss chance both ways.