Senpai noticed me in a good way!!!


But yeah, i see why thats whats up. If i didn't already have three characters I might offer to help with sheet work exclusively as an AGM or something.

Its just unfortunate that I cant take my 1 lvl dips anymore untill the arena is swarming with GMs.

would it be too much to consider using the variant system up to a point? For instance say I went variant system with Ugrim but only wanted the bravery class feature of the fighter class. I would sacrifice my 3rd lvl feat to gain access to that feature but would not need to sacrifice feats henceforth because all i wanted was bravery.

Also, once again, I put forth the possibility of buying back the lost feats as a BP expenditure. Something like lvl the feat was lost x 100 or something?
so a lvl 3 feat lost via the variant multiclass system would cost 300 BP to buy back while a lvl 15 feat lost via the system would cost 1500 bp to buy back. I dont know if thats over powered, underpowered or what cause i dont know whats going on inside those brilliant heads of yours but its a suggestion.

Also, maybe i can put out a call to arms for GMs on another dnd site I frequent and see what happens.
This message was last edited by the player at 15:12, Thu 23 July 2015.

Hey, when did Quick Draw get un-errata'd?

As it stands, i might have to go Primary fighter secondary barbarian to make any use of Ugrim with the new multi class system.

Also.... how do prestige classes work with the new variant system? Would they just overlay the secondary class when we wanted to start advancing in them, or would we stop progressing in our Primary class to progress in the Prestige class? What if we didn't have a secondary class but qualified for the prestige class and started progressing in it - i know thats a rare case but it happens.

 I don't think any gladiator has a level in a prestige class.
 It might be easier to just ban them entirely...
 One of the mission paizo set for themselves was to make the base class as interesting and customizable as the prestige class from Dnd; and boy did they succeed. I don't know anyone who uses prestige classes in pathfinder... archetypes and alternate class features are just so versatile...

 GM Arkrim, I'm not sure I understand what makes multiclassing more work for the GM (I'm not saying it's not! just saying I don't see it, probably because I'm not a GM in an arena)

 All in all, I think we can all agree that the "one level dip" is just one interpretation shy of cheating, or at least heavily cheese-optimizing.
 For Josep it's basically saying: this bloodline is cool, I'm going to pretend I'm a sorcerer and then use the powers that go with it to cast my wizard spells. Kinda cheesy.
 Same thing goes with one-level dip in cleric for domain powers, and so forth. The main problem is that these powers do not scale with level --you get the full benefits at first level. If they did, no one would bother dipping one level for a lousy 1st level ability.

 I'm rambling.

I was planing to at lvl 11 actually.

I think i've seen it stated that when a class refers to level, its actually talking about the levels in the class, not actual character level. But maybe i'm wrong.

I know I initially tried to build towards a prestige class with Krumm, but the introduction of the Bloodrager made the Dragon Disciple less favorable given what I was trying to accomplish. I can still see some value in the class - if I were to play a Draconic Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple(possibly with Barbarian thrown in as well), I would have many more spellcasting options. But in game like this where we're less focused on Roleplay, I think some of the draw of prestige classes is lost. Mechanically, many of them are either strictly inferior, or very difficult to balance versus newer classes/Archetypes. It also may that just nobody's figured out why they're awesome.

On a side note, I'm completely down with the BP system. Gotta say I love the idea that I can level any time I want if I have enough BP to do so or i can just keep racking up the BP for equipment and sourcebooks.

I may misunderstand you but it sounds like your saying bloodline and domain powers move with charracter lvl I don't think they do.  Only one I have come across is Oracle Curse that specifically states it moves with charracter lvl as well as class lvl (1 to 1 for class, 2 to 1 for charracter lvls not in class)

So if you dip 1 lvl into you only get full 1st level benefits.

"Dipping" usually is only good for martial characters with some VERY RARE exceptions as Grunyar points out.

---

But, if EVERYONE hates the multiclassing variant we can do something else but it has to be something EASIER to track. ANYTHING.

We CAN'T keep doing what we've been doing. If someone can think up a better alternative that doesn't force us to track dips so haphazardly, I'm open to listening but I just can't justify tracking ONE level in another class and throwing off the whole format.

Half-and-half would give us a consistent format and so would the multiclassing variant. It's got to be ONE of those two options unless one of you geniuses manages to come up with something at the last minute. I'm open to suggestions.

---

Ban prestige classes and ONLY allow regular multiclassing? Hmm...well I suppose that is technically less paperwork. I'm not sure if everyone else is happy with that idea.
This message was last edited by the GM at 01:14, Fri 24 July 2015.

Bruhli, the feat-starved barbarian, has tears of joy! I'll have to read more into this.

What exactly is it that makes tracking a 1 lvl dip difficult. I ask not facetiously but to pinpoint the problem and try and help find a way to resolve it without changing the multiclass system entirely.

I think there is nothing wrong with 3.5 rules, just means you have to plan your charracter out only issue is pathfinder changed favored class so you don't have class X that doesn't count for multiclassing.

Maybe open a thread "we" could help hash out a table of race to favored class
if that is a viable option.

This is an open discussion thread.

The tracking difficulty is just that. Tracking different HD, base bonuses, etc. instead of one. Go ahead and build a multiclass character FROM SCRATCH. That is how long the AVERAGE sheetwork request takes.

Some of you CLEARLY haven't comprehended how big of a scale of tracking we're talking here. There are nearly 42 gladiators. If only 1/4 of you are active at a time, that's 10.5 powergamed characters we have to build from scratch each week.

Going back to picking a favored class for a race would not solve the issue as that has nothing to do with tracking reduction.

And we can't homebrew custom hybrid classes, feats, and spells for people using (lots of homebrewing and houseruling and thus doesn't solve tracking issues)

---

Multiclassing alternatives so far:

Half/Half: You can only multiclass by doing 50% each class.

Unchained Variant: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classe...ariant-Multiclassing

These are the only suggestions that exist for reducing tracking with multiclassing. No one has yet to come up with anything else.

The last thing I can possibly think of is to have a Multiclassing division where multiclassers simply have to sit at the back of the bus while non-multiclassers get VIP access to sheetwork. Which doesn't sound very fair or nice....unless you'd all be okay with that?
This message was last edited by the GM at 03:32, Fri 24 July 2015.

Ohhh.... so you guys build us up from scratch every week just to make sure we're still in the right. Yeah, thats a bit of work, i'll admit.

Well, we can give this whole unchained variant system a try I guess. If I don't like it i can always spend BP to retrain myself.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:42, Fri 24 July 2015.

In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 36):

And some of you quote us faster than actually read what we just said...

Maybe i misinterpreted something? I dont know anymore. I've learned my brain does weird things every so often.

Maybe we should take this to a vote and call it a day cause i'm not smart enough to think of an alternative to the three options Akrim presented.

1) Unchained Variant
2) Half/Half 3.5 way
3) Original way - Non Multiclassers have priority VIP access over multiclassers in sheet work submissions.
This message was last edited by the player at 03:56, Fri 24 July 2015.

I think that spread is acceptable.

What do you think, Sehly?

That sounds ok to me. As long as the people multiclassing are aware that they may have to wait longer I don't think it should be a problem.

Okay, so unless anyone has objections, we can keep regular multiclassing you just have to be aware that your wait time for sheetwork is longer if you multiclass. And by longer, it's probably AT LEAST twice the normal wait. So you won't get to "repost" your request just because it's been a long time.

---

So, for those of you who might want to BRUTALLY EXPLOIT the battle points system, let's lay it all out for you guys:

Level vs. Gold
You can be a higher level with low gold or vice versa (to a point). Gold and levels become exponentially more powerful, so you can't lean one way or the other TOO much or someone will just exploit your weakness pretty easily. But leaning a little one way or the other gives you a lot more customization.

Race Points
No more sacrificing feats to play those cool races you guys want. Just spend a few battle points. And for those of you playing low-RP races, you get some extra BP in your pocket to put elsewhere.

Sheetwork
Because everything is liquidated to battle points, it's easy to track how much you gain and lose. Sheetwork is easier and faster.

Consumables/Ammo
Infinite. That's right, INFINITE. Because battle points assume a POWER LEVEL of a character, any consumable you have is assumed to be purchased over and over again. So you have it in every battle without having to constantly delete it from your character sheet and re-adding it. One quiver of 20 arrows will allow you to shoot 20 arrow every battle for the rest of your character's career. One potion of Bulls' Strength will allow the character to drink that potion over and over again once every battle forever. Careful though. You have an item limit, so even with infinite re-usability, you have only 20 items, regardless of your carrying capacity. You must choose carefully.

Who Got Nerfed?
We usually try to avoid intentionally nerfing people, but two types of players are nerfed just a bit by this update.

1) Book spammers: Yes, you're being charged BP to use Pathfinder sourcebooks. The more books you use, the more BP you have to spend to get access. We know the "most broken" abilities aren't broken at all. They're combined from different sourcebooks that were written separately, and we recognize the advantage this gives players who simply have more books and are willing to argue over "intent" more than other players. Because this puts more work and effort on everybody AND because it is a rules exploit, this is why it's costing BP. The LESS books you use, the cheaper this is (free if you only use core, DMG and/or bestiary 1).

2) Minion masters: We have a HD cap on minions. 4 x your level is the maximum HD worth of minions you can have a time. Where nobody has exploited this yet, not even our summoners, it was a loophole we didn't want anyone to hop through. Nor do we want someone spamming the diceroller any more than our summoners already have. 8 minions each with 1/2 your HD is enough for anybody.
This message was last edited by the GM at 06:11, Fri 24 July 2015.

I'm totally fine with having to wait more for sheetwork if I'm multi classing. I think it's actually a nice reward for those who keep things simple.

I definitely agree with you, Arkrim, regarding things that are deemed broken. They're usually only broken because we break them by using them in conjunction with something else. I'm actually anxious about by BP bill for sourcebooks...

I'm not seriously optimized by any stretch of imagination, but I've got 7 source books not including core :\

I think I might rebuild after the update though, my druid isn't able to do what I wanted him to do yet, and won't for a very long time.  After I get level 9 spells... We'll see then :P


5300 BP to jump to level 18, that's actually not as bad as I expected it to be :)

Yeah, if you have 7 books and aren't in the top tier ranking here, you're definitely not "optimized".

Even the most powergamey of the powergamed here are only 7-9 books.

If your "BP bill" is too high, you can always give up a sourcebook. If you have, SOMEHOW, already "overspent", you'll be allowed to retain what you have but listed at a higher BP than you actually are as a result (and you can just buy back your overspending by dueling some more to catch up).
This message was last edited by the GM at 07:28, Fri 24 July 2015.

 I just checked, I'm using 12 sourcebooks outside of core...

 Although quite a few of them are for spells that I never use (I definitely wouldn't have gotten those if I knew I'd have to pay extra for it ;)

 Once I know how much I ended up paying in BP for sourcebooks, I'll probably post a sheetwork to erase some spells or swicth some feats...

 This is definitely a game-changer, it's great! Keeps us evolving.

This is going to be painful, I don't even know how many source books I am using over all 3 characters.... Also if alternate class's are now archetypes I will need to rebuild Thumock....