I think the +1 Perdo is probably necessary. I could see laying pipe in the ground without it, but you very specifically need to destroy the ground in the cavity as well.

I think Vespera is right about laying the pipe. Usually if you do this sort of area attack that doesn't have a Range to its target you need to hit the target with a Finesse roll. So that would be R: AC or Finesse.

Very well, needs a Perdo Req. I thought I was being careful with a non+1 req considering there is no perdo req for Conjure the Mystic Tower.


A foot radius is much too large. I don't want to drain the river. I was thinking 2 inches inside the pipe, maybe .75-1 inch thick walls of the pipe. That said 5 miles is way more than enough as the river is a mile away though more than a mile would be necessary due to change in elevation.



If I up range to AC I don't see a need for Intellego and, as a ritual, I would like to get rid of a need for finesse. Placement in the river is not particularly important, long as it's below water level.

So redesign:
Create the Subterranean Aquaduct Cr(Pe)Te 40
R: Arc, D: Mom T: Ind
A pipe of stone is created between the part of the river which you have the AC to the caster's finger. The river, pond, or lake must be within X miles of where your finger is placed. (Not sure how many miles of pipe 3 Size Mags could give)
(Base 3: Create Stone, +4 Arcane Connection, +1 Perdo, +1 Complexity, +3 Size Mod)

With the change in dimensions and needing only over a mile not 5 miles I wonder if +2 size mags might do it but didn't check (would have to look up the functions necessary and Macrinus has those in hand) and I assume it would be close if it could.

At 40, or even 35 my idea to create a magical ReAq "pump"/valve that fits on the submerged end of this pipe is pretty unfeasible for a covenant without any terram-focused magi and even with a terram-focused magus it's a long way off. That sucks.

Any thoughts on how I could get the level down? Do it in pieces? a pipe down to the river, that could just be touch as long as I can see the river at the bottom of the cliff, right? I would definitely want the pipe encased in earth until it comes out the other end. I could maybe forgo the AC and just have the spell create a straight length of pipe and determine the angle using math, any Hermetic Geometrists in the bunch?

Water will not flow 5 miles down a 2 inch pipe. I can do the math. But I really don't want to. There is a reason water mains are really big.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 188):

a) not gonna be 5 miles. 1-ish mile though uphill, I was assuming ReAq "pump/valve" at one end would push the water through due to displacement.
b) I just need a trickle if set up with cisterns at our end.

How large a pipe do you think it needs to be? Ballpark, this is not a water main this is a slow but constant flow to fill up cisterns and any runnoff after those were full would go to whatever agriculture we have but this would likely be in addition to other sources.

So... I don't have the friction numbers for stone pipes. Because I'm a chemical engineer in 2021 not a roman civics engineer but lets suppose your stone is marble or something that can be as smooth as PVC...

You want to have enough for your people and agriculture. I have no idea how much water plants need in the desert. But people should be getting a gallon-ish per day. with decent covenant growth eventually call that 50 people? doubled for agriculture? 100 gallon per day is nice and round.

Actually there are too many unsolved variables if you have a pump.

But you could move 100 gallons a day through a 2 inch pipe 1 mile uphill by 100m with the equivalent pressure of a 100m water column. 0.015m3/hour is a pretty low flow rate. 4ml per second. That is less than what I let my cat play with in the sink.

Well, we aren’t in the desert, mountainous scrublands that get some rain at least part of the year but, like I said I don’t think this would be the only source, just beats sending the grogs a mile with buckets. In Roman times a reasonably sized town was supported using mostly rain catching cisterns. Of course removal of the forest and it drying out some was likely a significant reason this site is not much inhabited in 1220, probably some shepherds or goatherds but not much else. Either way it seems like a much more expensive solution (in both vis and time) than a lvl 20 CrAq “create spring” ritual. Might be good if we need to expand beyond what a magically created spring can provide.

Might up it to a 3 in pipe but a foot seems much larger than necessary for a constant but low-ish flow and utilizing cisterns for use.

You could also just Rego channel all of the rain water over a very large area into a cistern.

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 192):

Good for us, bad for our agriculture and the natural areas around us. Also may piss off our neighbors who’re grazing sheep and whatnot. Might also threaten a vis source of ours but that would be a separate, specific thing.

In reply to Salma ex Miscellanea (msg # 189):

I think you'd be much better off, especially if you don't have a Te specialist, to take two stones from the river, and make one of them an AC to the other. Lave the one with the Ac in a river/stream/lake/oasis, and enchant the other with ReAq to bring water from the AC to it's location.

As long as nobody disturbs the AC stone, or the water source dries out, you're good to go.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 194):

Ah yes, ye olde inconspicuous water floating uphill.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 194):

On second thought that could be quite an elegant solution. Take any stone, cut it in half, fix both as ACs to each other, and either enchant the one to teleport a certain amount of water near it when activated to the other using the "activate an enchanted item at AC range" spell or just cast a "teleport water spell" to bring it to you when necessary. Finesse would not be a huge issue, merely waste some of the water. Hrm... good idea. Not that we have an Aquam-focused mage either but...

TME (pg. 107) gives a ReAq guideline Base 4 to teleport water 5 paces, add 3 magnitudes for a League. Add another for part and you have the base effect effect for the item.

While Arnaldo doesn't have any of these spells, yet. I have decided to jump ahead and figure out some spells that I'd like for him to eventually research, and once researched, he'll try and make his lab texts usable, and bound into a folio of animal magic that he would be willing to sell.

Carry the Beast
MuAn(Te)30
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
The spell transforms an animal into a miniature clay sculpture about 2 sizes smaller than the target animal.
(Base 15, +2 Sun, +1 Terram)

Remove the Feathers’ Cloak
PeAn15
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
When cast, a single bird within range loses of its feathers. If the bird was flying at the time, it will no longer be able to do so without its feathers and drop immediately - probably to its death. When cast on birds like a dead chicken, this spell is even useful as kitchen magic.
(Base 5, +2 Voice)

Sight of the Lowly Beast
InCo(An)15
R: Arc, D: Con, T: Ind
Let’s you use the sense of an animal you have an Arcane Connection to. Thus, though the animal may not be able to understand speech, the caster, hearing the sounds, could.
(Base 1, +4 Arcane Connection, +1 Concentrate)

Commune with Animals
InAn20
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
Allows you to converse with an animal as If you share a common language. Animals are still limited by their cunning in what information they can impart.
(Base 10, +2 Sun)

Call the Simple Beast
CrAn15
R: Touch, D: Con, T: Ind
You create a single bird/fish/amphibian/reptile of up to size +1. The creature isn’t under your control, and will act as a normal animal as long as you concentrate.
(Base 10, +1 Touch)

Call the Land Beast
CrAn20
R: Touch, D: Con, T: Ind
You create a single mammal of up to size +1. The creature isn’t under your control, and will act as a normal animal as long as you concentrate.
(Base 15, +1 Touch)

Rhino’s Hide
MuAn15
R: Per, D: Sun, T: Ind
Your flesh becomes resistant to physical damage. You get +3 to your Soak. Your flesh is tough and insensitive; any rolls that involve a sensitive touch (such as for picking a lock) are at –1.
(Base 5, +2 Sun)

Hump of a Camel
MuAn(Ig)30
R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Ind
Grants the animal a +3 to resist water and food deprivation, and to survive the heat.
(Base 15, Sun +2, Ignem +1)

Tail of a Monkey
MuAn40
R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Ind
The animal grows a prehensile tail, that can hold and manipulate objects, as well as improve its balance, if it’s got less than 4 legs.
(Base 25, Touch +1, Sun +2)
This message was last edited by the player at 22:30, Tue 09 Mar 2021.

In reply to Player 6 (msg # 198):

I found and have this spell. Works like your Rhino's Hide, but Animal transformations are easier than people.

On page 61 of BCoC. Gift of Man’s Fortitude (MuAn15): As Gift of the Bear’s Fortitude, but for animals.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:21, Tue 09 Mar 2021.

Took a while to get through all these:


That requisite is part of the guideline, so no +1 for Terram just like we see no +1 for Animal in the MuCo(An) shapeshifting stuff. You're missing the +1 Touch there, though.


Having seen a squirrel fall several stories onto concrete and run off, I'm aware smaller animals fall better than bigger ones. Birds, with their hollow bones are even lighter compared to their size, and that's even neglecting the feathers. So I'd get rid of "probably to its death." It is likely the animal will be injured.

The base 5 guideline is supposed to "roughly [halve] the effectiveness of the targeted thing," while you're entirely removing the effectiveness. So this goes beyond what the base 5 guideline can manage.


This would be InAn, not InCo, if you're picking up the senses of an animal. If it were from a human or other intelligent thing, it would be InMe.

For InMe the core book says

However, A&A went through more carefully and said

And the core book says

So it should be InAn base 5 for one sense or InAn base 15 for all senses.


How about a Range greater than Personal to affect the animal? This isn't an InMe effect that give the caster a new mental effect. You might be able to recast this as Personal with a sense Target, though that wouldn't let you deliver messages, just receive.


That's a lot of variety for one spell. Consider spells like Preternatural Growth and Shrinking, which requires a +1 just for the flexibility between growth and shrinking. This spell can make a bird or a fish or an amphibian or a reptile, each of which includes a vast number of possibilities and sizes. You'll need a lot of extra magnitudes to get this kind of flexibility out of such a spell.


This is better as there is not nearly so much flexibility. But it's still way too flexible without extra magnitudes.


This is fine.


I don't think Ignem is really needed. It's not an Ignem ward, just giving some camel benefits. I think MuAn base 15 is sufficient.


At very least, I wouldn't call it that. With information today, we tend to forget. Fully prehensile tails are almost entirely exclusive to the Americas. There are a few, though. The tree pangolin and binturong live far from Europe. The only one I'm aware of is the harvest mouse. Did people in the middle ages have any idea the harvest mouse had a prehensile tail? I'm not saying such a spell won't work, mostly that the name is odd.

Ok, so it's:
Carry the Beast
MuAn(Te)30
R: Touch, D: Sun, T: Ind
The spell transforms an animal into a miniature clay sculpture about 2 sizes smaller than the target animal.
(Base 15, +1 Touch, +2 Sun)



Would that be the level 15 guideline? "Change an animal in a major unnatural way (for example, give a horse claws, fangs, and scaly armored skin)."

That would be:
Remove the Feathers’ Cloak
PeAn25
R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind
When cast, a single bird within range loses of its feathers. If the bird was flying at the time, it will no longer be able to do so without its feathers and drop immediately - probably to its death. When cast on birds like a dead chicken, this spell is even useful as kitchen magic.
(Base 15, +2 Voice)



So that means, it should be:
Sight of the Lowly Beast
InAn30
R: Arc, D: Con, T: Ind
Let’s you use one sense of an animal you have an Arcane Connection to. Thus, though the animal may not be able to understand speech, the caster, hearing the sounds, could.
(Base 5, +4 Arcane Connection, +1 Concentrate)

And possible:
Commandeer the Senses of the Beast
InAn40
R: Arc, D: Con, T: Ind
Let’s you use all 5 senses of an animal you have an Arcane Connection to. Thus, though the animal may not be able to understand speech, the caster, hearing the sounds, could.
(Base 15, +4 Arcane Connection, +1 Concentrate)



The idea was that the spell allows me, in animal form, to communicate with other animals. Therefore, it wouldn't need a range other than Personal, unless I wanted to be able to cast it on another. (Though then it would probably become InMe to be cast on humans.)
I can see it possibly requiring an extra magnitude for complexity, since it allows to commune with any animal.



Could this be just a general kind of spell, where each version creates a specific animal of those types?



Could this be just a general kind of spell, where each version creates a specific animal of those types?



Ok, so this becomes:
Hump of a Camel
MuAn25
R: Personal, D: Sun, T: Ind
Grants the animal a +3 to resist water and food deprivation, and to survive the heat.
(Base 15, Sun +2)



Yeah, I'll have to rethink this one.

Thanks for being patient.

Looks good now.


I'm a little confused. You're quoting a MuAn guideline for a PeAn spell? It's probably most similar to "Cripple a beast’s limb, so that it is unusable but could heal." The reason I say similar is that it completely stops their ability to fly, which is pretty similar to crippling a limb. Yes, that is base 15, so the spell as written works. I just don't understand the reference beforehand.


I would adjust the first one to being a specific sense, and if you add +1 you can choose any sense, not that the latter would matter for spontaneous magic. Otherwise, yes.


Yes, I understood what the idea was, but that doesn't match how the guideline works at all. This is easier to see if you look at InMe since there are example spells. Why isn't Thoughts Within Babble T: Individual? After all, it's basically the same as what you're doing. Because it needs to detect the thing. That's either by extending Range or by using Personal and a Sense Target. So the typical version of "speak with any one human" would be R: Eye, D: Concentration, T: Individual, or similar. Then you can speak with the human at Eye Range. Same thing with this InAn guideline.


Yes, these work for specific animal types fine. It's also a different version for a male v. a female according to canon.


Looks good.


Mostly it's a name change. I don't think there is anything wrong with a prehensile tail, though I don't know how many in Medieval Europe are likely to have even considered it.

Snakes are known and so are tentacled creatures. I don't see why it would be a huge leap to say it is a tail that can move with all the grace of a serpent (AKA prehensile). Especially among Magi where we encounter intelligent snakes on occasion and can see that they can do a great deal of manipulation with their bodies.

That's why I say it's fine. I wouldn't use that name, though.

Sure, I only mention in case he was having trouble with a name. "Graceful Serpent's Tail" is a more elegant name than "Tail of a Mouse We May Have Never Observed Using Its Tail as a Hand".

In reply to Player 4 (msg # 205):

LOL. That was great! Yes, that is a much better name!

But the latter is so much more awesome as a spell name... :-)

Is there a spell out there that lets you full on possess someone? Like would it just be complexity to use your Great weapon skill through a victim target

There isn't a spell I know of yet, but Core book page 152 has Rego Mentem Exchange of Two Minds. A modification on that ritual spell might function for a short while.

This isn't a specific spell, but a spontaneous spell Jaegar intends to use regularly:

Unraveling the Fabric of ______ PeVi5
Range: Touch
Duration: Momentary
Target: Individual
This spell will cancel the effects of any one Hermetic Spell of _______ whose level is less than or equal to 20 + Stress Die (No botch).

At touch range, or personal range, this spontaneous spell is useful for becoming visible if invisible, removing effects that are Sun duration or longer, when they are no longer useful, etc.