Bruhli, here are your options:

1) (And this one only if Boadicea permits you to make your fly checks even though your turn ended without them aa he called you on fly problems) Your flight straight up costs 10' of movement (including the cost to get into the higher square) and a dc 20 fly check, then turning to fly level will cost 5' of movement (not including the cost to get into your next square).  Failing either of those checks will cause you to fall in I1 as your first movement and take falling damage.  Then you could use your remaining 45' of flying movement to get where you want from I1+6.''

2) Ascend as normal giving up your standard to get to your current location with your 30' fly speed.

3) Use your standard to cast a spell and ascend as normal stopping short of where you did because of your 30' fly speed.

4) Call for a vote in the OOC and abide by the consequences.  (As a warning on this, I would not expect a request for "I can fly vertically and then turn more than 45 degress without needing a skill check or movement penalty" to get far in the ooc because it directly conflicts with the fly skill.)

Interesting, I’m still not entirely convinced that I wrong. Really, I floated up 5 ft and then I moved horizontally. There was no 45 degree movement. If you can quote me something besides that one match with Latro that says horizontal and vertical movement costs double, then I’ll choose option 2 where I just give up my standard to end up where I am. The below points are simply to show why the match with Latro is not enough.

First, the match I am quoting from is more recent than the match you are quoting from.

Second, the match I am quoting from is much more on point. First, it involves the exact same type of movement. In that match, I was using horizontal and vertical movement. In your match, Latro was also using diagonal movement. The match I am quoting from is much more on point because it involves the same type of movement.

Third, others have recognized a difference between horizontal/veritcal movement and diagonal (45 degree) movement.

quote:

The only possible routes you could take were 45 degree turns to go around the smoke (fly check), flying straight up through the smoke (AoO)

There is a difference between the two types of movement.

Bruhli, due to your lack of reporting any turns in your move or position line your flight path is assumed to be the most direct route which is a striaght line ascending at less than 45° so no need for a fly check but beings +6 is higher than +5 I due believe that is an ascent and per the Fly spell (I assume you are under) 

quote:

It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.

.  On a side note if Ario allows you to change your motion that would involve a fly check I would like to invoke the Forgetting to roll autofail. Move to a legal position and Lets move on PLEASE

quote:

Flying & Movement
You must declare your flying movement at the start of your round and make a fly check with it (hover, move<half speed, and so forth).

Forgetting to Roll: If a character forgets to roll an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check when they are supposed to, then the attacker/defender may choose to "call them out" and have the roll autofail. If it is not an opposed check, they can ask a GM to intervene. Everything must be listed clearly and in chronological order. The GM will rule in favor of whoever is MORE organized in the case of an argument over "vagueness" or intention. Note, posting the newest map in chronological order makes you "more" organized only if it is accurate.

Boadicea:

OOC:

Bruhli, due to your lack of reporting any turns in your move or position line your flight path is assumed to be the most direct route

I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure this isn't written anywhere.

In looking at other matches, people don't have to specify their exact movement path unless questioned about it. As such, I didn't have to specify mine until someone questions it. I don't have to report my exact movement unless called to do so by the ref, GM, or other player.

This is what I propose. As I stated, I moved up 5 ft (vertically) and then moved horizontally. For purpose of this proposition, I will agree with you and Ario that vertical movement takes double movement. So moving up would cost 10 ft. Boadicea, when you were a ref, you allowed everything up until the point of the error. What is the error in this case? In this case (if you and Ario are right that moving vertically costs double movement), the error was that I took 5ft of extra movement. So I would be stopped just before I took that extra 5ft which would put me in C8+6. In other words, I would move until my movement ran out. After that, I would continue with the rest of my turn. Because the rest of my turn isn't affected by where I am, it would still be the same.

I would like to move on to. Truthfully, out of all the things we could argue about, this seems to be exceedingly minor. The difference between my being right and your being right is whether I end up in C9+6 or C8+6. I mean 8 days? Really?




This message was last edited by the player at 01:51, Thu 19 May 2016.

Bruhli, the actual issue seems to be a lack of understanding of the flying rules on your part.  You are correct that path does not need to be stated unless asked for, but Boadicea is correct that (without his permission to make rolls late) your changed path would result in you casting your spell and falling in I1 due to automatically failed rolls (explained in one of my previous posts).  Even if he did let you roll the checks (which he appears not to be) you would be falling short 10', not 5' (explained in the same previous post).

He is allowing you to make a legal move that does not require you to make fly checks in place of the move action you botched, which is the point at which the error was made, as you requested.  This is much kinder than just requiring that you fall in I1, and I would suggest you take it.

In response to your complaint about time: you have 48 hours from this post to make a post correcting your movement, or make Boadicea an offer he accepts instead, as agreement between players trumps pretty much everything.  If any offers you make are not accepted and you have not posted a corrected action, you will default to your stated path and fall in I1 taking damage due to the failed fly check.

You are correct Bruhli 8 days is a bit much, but 6 days ago and again 2 days ago Ario made the call and ask for you to adjust location.  I am good with you making your move/moves to where ever you can as long as its legal and requires no check, Ario put a couple good choice in his post two days ago and as I pointed out before if +6 isn't super important just go to +5 and you can even move one more square closer.

OOC: You are right that two days ago Ario did provide options. And go back to my post, I already choose option 2 but just wanted someone to quote me a rule I can rely on. That's I'm waiting for or was waiting for.


Now that I have a 48 hour deadline to comply, I'll go back to my original choice of option 2 where I give up my standard to end up where I am.

ok, will have post up in a bit

"Cowards we are not Bruhli" Boadicea yells to Bruhli while moving towards him.  She pauses combining the pill in her hand and the potion she just drew creating a small cloud of smoke.  "I think I may join you after all" she states as she flys up and socks Bruhli in the jaw. "Let us start the show, try not to die to fast"



B = Bruhli
O = Boadicea
K = Kosh
P = potion

ROUND: Round 1 (22)
POSITION: C11+6:D12+5
 ACTIONS: Draw potion while moving to C17:D18 (via G19:H20 and E17:F18)(Move), (wait for Kosh to finish his 1st move action) Drop pill in potion bottle centered at D17:E18(Standard), Handle Kosh (Attack)(free), activate shirt (swift), fly to C11+6:D12+5 (less than 45° ascent no check needed)(move), punch Bruhli (Unarmed strike)(Hero point)

 HP: 124/124 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 11; FFAC:  9; Touch: 11
CMD: 29; FFCMD: 26; FFTAC: 9

EFFECTS: - Feats , Class Feature , spells 8/10, 9/10, 50/50
   GEAR: - Amulet , Belt , Cloak , Pill , Shirt , Potions , belt pouch, dagger, sling (ACP - 0, Load - Light)
   USES: -  Cloak: -/-, 0/1, 0/1; Potions 0/2 ; Pill 0/1 ; Shirt 0/1; Rage ?/?

Kosh: Position: I17:J18, HP 81/81, [AC 28, FFAC 26, TAC 10, CMD 25, FFCMD 23, FFTAC 10, Fort +7, Refl +8, Will + 3]
 Actions: - 1st move action move to E17:F18 (move), 2nd move action to C13:D14 (via c17:D18)(move)
 Effects: - Feats , spell 50/50

DICE ROLLS: Boadicea rolled 25 using 3d6+9 with rolls of 6,4,6.  Damage to Bruhli, amulet, unarmed strike.
Boadicea rolled 28 using 1d20+18 with rolls of 10.  Unarmed strike Bruhli, amulet, unarmed strike.

   SUMMARY: - Boadicea moves toward Bruhli while drawing a potion and awaits Kosh to join her then drops the pill into the potion creating a small cloud that quickly dissipates.  Bodicea then takes flight and punches Bruhli for 25 damage.  Kosh pads slowly towards Bruhli.


OOC: Sorry so long intended to have this up last night

In reply to Boadicea (msg # 52):

Boadicea, you don't get your attack. Using the shirt immediately ends your turn.


http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-.../shirt-quick-runners

Good catch however, that was added in the errata just released.  I did not get the memo until GM posted link (after my turn was posted).  I ask Ario for a call on that beings the change happened after our match began.  However all my moves are legal so worst case is I lose an action on my next turn for using a Hero Point out of turn.

OOC: The errata was released before you took your turn. When you found out about it is irrelevant.

Also, you can't use the act out of turn hero point usage. We said that wasn't allowed as an extra.
This message was last edited by the player at 19:43, Sat 21 May 2016.

Now comes the splitting of Hair did I really interrupt your turn beings you had yet to post/act, our extra is "No interrupting other player's turns with hero points" not no act out of turn.  Had you not continued to argue and listened to Ario my turn would have been well before errata came out.  So as this is an arena match should not rules, item, and everything else be locked in when the match starts?  Just a funny image as Boadicea is about to act arena official jumps out of the stands runs over and hands her a new shirt ordering her to hand over the one she is wearing. LOL

The below quote is from the Arena Competition Rules Thread.

quote:

Act out of Turn: You sacrifice a standard, move or swift action from your NEXT turn to take it immediately, interrupting another character's turn. Initiative does not change.

The below is a quote from you.

quote:

However all my moves are legal so worst case is I lose an action on my next turn for using a Hero Point out of turn.

Looking at both these quotes, it's clear what your intent was. You practically tracked the language from the "Act out of Turn" hero point usage.

quote:

"No interrupting other player's turns with hero points."

Once again, look at the Rules quote. It's clear what we intended to prohibit.
This message was last edited by the player at 20:31, Sat 21 May 2016.

We can argue all day long but it only matters what Ario's call is and I will wait for that.

Guess need him to answer:

1) Does errata effect already in progress match?

If yes then:

  A) Am I interrupting your turn?

quote:

Once again, look at the Rules quote. It's clear what we intended to prohibit.

Aw the ever present RAW versus the Intended meaning of the Rule, what I wanted to stop and I'm sure was your intention as well to stop all the retcons from I hit you with super duper Hammer of death killing you, you use hero point to activate anti super duper hammer shield right before I hit you. Leaving me with a move action into a position I only would be in because I could kill you now I'm stuck in a bad spot with just a standard action.

holding post while I re-write.  Thought boa's last post was bruhli.
This message was last edited by the player at 21:06, Sat 21 May 2016.

For 1) Frankly, I didn't want to rule on the Ultimate Equipment errata.  It's extremely game-changing to have an update like that mid-match, and more especially to have it come into effect in response to someone's turn being taken.  As you've both asked for me to rule I suggest a 50/50 chance of it going either way.  That is, one of you roll a die: evens errata goes into effect at the start of the match, odds it does not do anything for this game.  If you both refuse that I will make a specific ruling without the die roller's assistance.

For 2) As your extras line prohibited interruption but not acting out of turn, and as I cannot attempt to rule on RAI, but RAW, Boadicea's action would be legal as it did not interrupt Bruhli's actions.

That is fine with me Bruhli guess balls in your court you have a shirt in your inventory as well I assume the same brand how do you want to use yours?  If you want dice roll go ahead just please put in reason which is < 50/ >50.(I know you would anyway but just figured I'd say anyhow)
This message was last edited by the player at 22:09, Sat 21 May 2016.

Here comes Ario with his rules jiu jitsu to bail Boadicea out. LOL. JK. Or am I?


For 2) Okay as to the second point first because it's easier, once Boadicea ends his turn. My turn begins, whether I've taken a standard or a move action. It's still my turn. If he takes an action DURING my turn, he has interrupted my turn. I am quoting from Boadicea here

Boadicea:

quote:

using a Hero Point out of turn.

If Boadicea isn't using a hero point during his turn, then he is using a hero point during my turn. No rules jiu jitsu here.



For 1) As to the first point, the release came out before Boadicea took his turn. In other words, Boadicea had every opportunity to use the shirt correctly. Rules become effective when they are released unless they state otherwise.

Additionally, rules about how feats and equipment work have been created mid-match all the time here (i.e. there is an issue not addressed by RAW). If a GM rules that a feat/piece of equipment works this way or that way, from that point on, the players must abide by that ruling in that match. I don't see why this should be any different. (i.e. the player thought a piece of equipment worked one way. RAW supports the person's interpretation. And then because of a mid-match GM ruling it changes.)
This message was last edited by the player at 22:42, Sun 22 May 2016.

Bruhli, so far this game I've intervened 1) when you tried to post a partial (and illegal) sheet,  and 2) when you took an illegal turn and Boadicea called you on it.

I intervened now because you've both asked for it, and gave you my ruling on point two in good faith so it would not come as a shock when 1 is resolved, and so you could come to an agreement on it between you on how you want your match to proceed.

A quick PSA from the rules thread: "Arguing with a Referee or GM is an automatic foul."  I'm going to pass on that this once, because this is the first time the arena has had a problem with it, it seems.  If you think I am being partial, or am wrong, call me on it and go for an ooc vote and abide by the consequences.  If not: stop with the arguing and accept my ruling.  To make it easier: there are 11 initiative ticks that Boadicea could activate his hero point, and there is no rule that compresses time to binary alternating turns in the arena.  In fact, if you note your own post, you declare your initiative for each turn.  There is time between turns in Pathfinder.  Your extra says nothing about acting out of turn, only specifically interrupting.  If you want different rules in future games, request them then.

Side note: I believe this is the first time Paizo has changed RAW on anyone mid-match, regardless of whether there have been misunderstandings of RAW that were ruled on mid-match.

tl,dr: In the next 48 hours: 1) Make the roll for which way things will run for this game (this match ignores errata that comes out during it, or all errata takes effect before Boadicea's most recent turn), 2) make a proposal you think Boadicea will agree with, 3) cite a match where paizo errata came out mid-match and a GM made a ruling to set precedent on it or 4) call an ooc vote if you think that my call is completely, 100% wrong, per the rules thread.  Choose to continue to argue instead and I will give you the foul you've asked for and we can simplify the issue by moving on to your fly check in response to receiving damage.

I've spent a ton of hours reading and researching things for this match, and we haven't even finished the second round.  I will continue with due diligence and give you guys as balanced a match as I can manage, but do not argue with me once I've made a call that has been asked for.

In reply to Ario (msg # 63):

First, are you talking about the bailout thing? Or when I said you were using jiu jitsu? You are aware that only applied to the hero point interruption ruling, right? If not, I'll make it clear right here. It doesn't apply to the rest of the match. I agree, you did help me out in the beginning. About the flying movement, let's not go over that again.

Second, I'll agree with you that I was arguing with you if you can find two or more posts from me in response to you about the new errata. If you can only find one post in response to you, that's not arguing, that's just presenting my side of the story which hadn't really been heard.

Looking at most of the past challenges in the Challenge thread, most of us have "no interrupting another player's turn with a hero point." I'll have to remember this isn't specific enough.

I'll look for a match where there was a mid-match ruling. Actually, if you are ruling that "no interrupting another player's turn with hero points" =/= No act out of turn hero points, then there's no point in my looking for mid-match ruling.

I'll get my post up tomorrow. On phone
This message was last edited by the player at 00:20, Wed 25 May 2016.

B = Bruhli
O = Boadicea
K = Kosh
P = potion


   ROUND: Round #2 (10)
POSITION: C9+6 to O4
 ACTIONS: Fall (Free), Stand up (Move Action), Move (to G4) (Standard Action), Activate Shirt (Swift), Fly to R4+2 (less than 45° ascent no check needed(Move Action).

 HP: 97/101 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 13; FFAC: 12; Touch: 13
CMD: 25; FFCMD: 24; FFTAC: 12

EFFECTS: - 3/60 Spell 1, 3/50 Boots, Style
   GEAR: - Greatsword, Potion, Boots, Cloak, Shirt, Amulet, Belt, Backpack, belt pouch, dagger, sling, component’s pouch, spellbook (-0 ACP, Light Load)

   USES: - 0/?? blessings, 1/?? fervor, ??/?? shirt, ??/??, elemental assault, ??/?? rage

Spells: 0 Level 0/5, 1st Level 0/5, 2nd Level 1/4



DICE ROLLS: - 22:07, Today: Bruhli rolled 21 using 1d20+13 with rolls of 8.  DC27 fly check v. damage.
-  22:09, Today: Bruhli rolled 24 using 1d20+6 with rolls of 18.  Acrobatics to reduce damage.
-  22:11, Today: Bruhli rolled 4 using 2d6 with rolls of 3,1.  Falling damage.
-
   SUMMARY: - Falls, stands up, and moves.

OOC:

Position line should read:

POSITION: C9+6 to R4+2

Bruhli are you not at half speed because of ascent?  So you gonna roll on how shirt is played or going with pre errata?

Whoops, you're right.  I should be at M4+2. Or I can be in G4+0 because I failed to make the fly check and that's where I would have fallen. You can choose.

I argued that the new rules should apply. I stick by that, even if it only applies to me.




B = Bruhli
O = Boadicea
K = Kosh
P = potion

POSITION: M4+2