This is less of a poll and more of a discussion.

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I cannot allow templates as is for players because their +2 CR is designed for monsters and doesn't always match up with the methods that characters are built.

Latro has proposed some interesting ideas. We could use the Advanced Race Guide to recreate templates as races.

But this opens the doors to custom races.

Traditionally, the arena did not allow customization, but with the release of the Advanced Race guide we started allowing people to customize WITHIN their own race (allowing you to add alternate racial traits normally intended to your race but not create entirely new races or add any traits not normally associated with your base race).

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Please discuss your thoughts on this topic.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:04, Wed 03 Jan 2018.

I approve of this idea, tentatively...

I feel that completely Custom Races shouldn't be allowed, though I'm happy for races built on a template to be used.

Interestingly, going through the Race rules, I realised a few assumptions regarding the Ogre race are incorrect, so it may be worth running all unusual races through the race guide.

This could then be maintained as a thread either here on the homepage, or as a page on the site.  Easy reference for anyone to check for approved races, what exactly the race offers, and can be maintained by a player or assistant GM.

I believe that a completely custom race, as in one made from scratch shouldn't really be allowed. There's way to much opportunity to min/max out that race with a much junk as possible and say "Oh, yeah, that's my Completely Original Race™."

Adapting other pathfinder material into races, however, I can see as a potentially viable option.
For example, so races that dont have an RP cost associated with them could be figured out with the Advanced Race Guide and submitted for approval

As a note on templates: its going to happen where a certain ability of a certain template just simply can't be recreated, no matter how much you try and finagle it.
I would suggest that instead of banning the template outright, one who desires said template simply does not have access to the ability or abilities in question and pays for the race as much as they were able to figure out.
So for example, if I wasn't able to figure out the lich's paralyzing touch and all that jazz, the Lich would be a 74 RP race that doesn't come with paralyzing touch, fear aura, and the negative energy touch attack.

Finally, I would suggest that the race's RP cost would be added to the base creature's RP cost to calculate a final RP cost to figure what the BP cost to play such a race with a template.

Edit: and as a side note, I'd be more than happy to help maintain this.
This message was last edited by the player at 00:09, Thu 04 Jan 2018.

I have not looked to deep into the templates at all but I think it should be like multiclassing a sliding scale the more BP you have the more expensive the template is and no to opening up the races any more than they already are to customization without a template.

I think the cost of the template is your level purchased with your entire BP, mine would be level 15 at a cost of 1750 let's say I want a +2CR template then subtract 2 level so that's 13 at 750 then take the difference of the two 1000 and that is my BP cost for the template.

So as you go up in BP so does the cost I.E . if I had 45 more BP it would raise the cost to 1500 BP because I would have enough for the next level.

In reply to Grunyar Fangblood (msg # 4):

I mean, that's a good point but +2 CR isn't a PERFECT match for +2 Levels. I guess that's my issue. It would certainly be simple to do that, but it's also not accurate. That's what's bugging me.

IDEA:

If we could calculate how expensive a template WOULD be if it were a race (approximately) and then use that as a scale to determine how high of a level a character would have to be in order to accept the template, we may be getting somewhere.

I mean, the biggest problem with templates is that they throw off balance but the higher your level the less relevant their difference becomes.

If you had to be "at least level 5" to get +1 CR, or "at least level 10" to get +2 CR, etc. then we might be getting somewhere (or something to that effect).

I like the idea of needing X class levels before you can use y CR template

I can get behind the idea of needing a certain number of levels to be able to attain a template of a certain CR value.

Looking at the lich template, it flat out says you need to be at least lvl 11 to even have a shot of becoming one.
with the Fey, template it says that for a creature of 9HD or less is +1 CR while a creature of 10 HD or more is + 2 CR

so we already have a sort of precedent for basing something like this around.

I think i have to disagree with Grunyar's suggestion of bassing template cost off of total BP cost, leaning towards Arkrim's argument that not all CR templates are created equal.

Take for instance the Lich and the Fey. both are + 2 CR templates at the right level (Let's call it 11 for comparisons's sake)
As my previous calculations suggest, a lich would cost about the price of it's phylactery in BP to play as a race. (so 1,200 BP for simplicities sake.)
A Fey creature at lvl 11, taking only the cheapest HD options available to it, assuming basic human as the base creature. is 50 RP, or only 250 BP

Bump both those characters to lvl 20 and the lich still costs the same amount as before: 1,200 BP.
The Fey gets uped a lot simply due to the bonuses it gets from leveling up, going all the way up to 88 RP (once again choosing only the cheapest options), which comes out to 774 BP to play.

Still much cheeper that the lich. But with grunyar's suggestion, both would cost the same amount at each level interval.

Possible suggestion:

Take a template's final RP cost and divide it by 10 then round up and thats the minimum level you need to be to have that template.

I just want to chip in that I’m interested in seeing templates etc in the arena, but that I don’t think I can contribute much to the balancing. Following this with interest!

In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 7):

Yep, that's exactly my concern. The templates are far from balanced because they're not designed for player balance, they're designed for monsters.

If this was a poll, I would vote no to templates, mainly because I think there’s already so much to play with (and new content regularly released still!)

I’m unlikely to contribute or use it, but I think the way you had unusual races priced mad sense ( squared divided by ten).
It meant the further you are from something “normal” the more ridiculously expensive it gets.

Another possible suggestion: Treat templates like mythic ranks in that up to a certain point, templates must be included as an extra in the challenge post.

where mythic ranks can (and should) be expected when both players have 10,000 BP, perhaps templates work the same way at 5,000 or so total BP.

Is this why monsters are so hard to beat?

In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 12):

Hmmmm....lump them together into a category of "you're playing with the big boys now"?

That could work.

Only higher levels and more experienced players.

10,000 BP + veteran status requirements in order to have access to certain oddities.

IF we were to allow it, I think that's a good restriction without too much complexity. What does everyone else think?

In reply to GM Arkrim (msg # 14):

I like it. Nice and simple, and only makes it available once you reach the point where the template imbalance should be less of an issue.
This message was last edited by the player at 05:33, Fri 05 Jan 2018.

I like that idea

In reply to Tinny Tina (msg # 15):
 I agree, once you can cast quickened 9th level mythic spells, there’s little imbalance a template could add.

Looks like we have a lot of agreement, especially since Latro, Grunyar, and Vry have stated something similar.

So unless I get any major objects I think templates are just going into the same pot as mythics.

I'm ok with this.

https://sites.google.com/site/...nt/level-advancement

Given these changes we may also consider non-core prestige classes.
This message was last edited by the GM at 02:49, Mon 08 Jan 2018.