Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing.   Posted by GM Arkrim.Group: 0
Vry
 Sorcerer 3,046, 562 posts
 Advanced Gnome
 Shadow's Caress
Sun 11 Mar 2018
at 20:15
Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
B.

I do not favor one-two-level dips into classes for cool features much... But for me, they might as well be there to allow for all the other cool stuff. As Boadicea said, taking the first few levels in the primary class then switching out once the class is best built on by another class, is one example. If I was playing Gunslinger, I'd probably do it til level 5 (8 at the very most) and then go straight fighter with the rest to build the gunslinging, for example.

Personally I also like prestige classes. And even though I haven't played one in the arena, I may do so in the future. Dragon Disciple for example... I think it's a class that's hard to build well since it doesn't have full spell OR BAB progression, not having tried it myself. If I were to try it, however, I can see myself going Sorcerer2/fighter 3 (or vice versa) then dragon disciple 10... Or Sorcerer 1, fighter 4; or fighter 1, sorcerer 4; before dragon disciple, depending on what part I wanted to focus more on. I think that versatility is required to make many of these cool builds viable.

And I think a fighter dip for a level or a few is always easy to motivate...

So, I say B.
Grunyar Fangblood
 Summoner 3,236, 794 posts
 Skinwalker Summoner
Sun 11 Mar 2018
at 21:26
Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Option B
I'm with Jayce at the moment I am full Summoner but once I hit 20 I may want to go Antipaladin for those cool Auras around Latro or something fun like sorcerer for those scorching rays Josep used to throw about
Jayce the Tamer
 Summoner 2,543, 391 posts
 Human Summoner
Sun 11 Mar 2018
at 21:36
Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
B then.... Doesn't hurt to add in a thought. Or does it? Option B as current written language stands.
Brakt
 Brawler 2,929, 616 posts
 Ogre Brawler
 The Order
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 05:46
Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
I've got a suggestion which might make things easier?

When calculating levels, unless you are duel-classed, each level in your secondary class costs the BP equivalent of 2 levels.

This way it cuts out the math required, makes it possible for dipping, but makes it cost more, especially as you get higher levels.

If you don't like this suggest, then I'll vote for Option A.
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6427 posts
 Game Master
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 13:26
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Brakt:
I've got a suggestion which might make things easier?

When calculating levels, unless you are duel-classed, each level in your secondary class costs the BP equivalent of 2 levels.

This way it cuts out the math required, makes it possible for dipping, but makes it cost more, especially as you get higher levels.

If you don't like this suggest, then I'll vote for Option A.

Hmmmmmm. That is intriguing. It would certainly give the best of both options. Let's call that C.

Feel free to change your vote if you like this.
Josep Gavinho
 Wizard 1,987, 1312 posts
 Human Wizard
 Thaumaturgical Alliance
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 13:43
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Boy thatís a hefty price!

But yeah, if it allows more options, Iíll switch my vote to C.
Jayce the Tamer
 Summoner 2,543, 397 posts
 Human Summoner
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 16:00
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Vote C.
Vry
 Sorcerer 3,046, 563 posts
 Advanced Gnome
 Shadow's Caress
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 16:58
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
I donít understand what option C means, could you please give an example or two?
Also, is prestige classing separate from the proposed systems?
Boadicea
 Fighter 2,078, 1007 posts
 Advanced Human Fighter
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 17:56
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
In reply to GM Arkrim (msg # 13):

Question on option C

I assume secondary class refers to class you have the least levels in so again using my build as example I would just pay for level 4 to get my first two levels and all my fighter levels (level 3+) would start by paying the difference from level 2 to level 3 to gain level 3 or would continue to pay two levels ahead of my actual level?
Josep Gavinho
 Wizard 1,987, 1318 posts
 Human Wizard
 Thaumaturgical Alliance
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 18:17
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
In reply to Boadicea (msg # 17):
 I read it as if youíre Barb10/Ftr2, you need to pay BP for a 14th level.
 Although that does sound a bit extreme.
Jayce the Tamer
 Summoner 2,543, 399 posts
 Human Summoner
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 18:27
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
In reply to Josep Gavinho (msg # 18):

I read it differently than you all. It says the BP of 2 levels. Now as that stands, I can be a 10th level summoner and 2nd level paladin 12 levels total.

I buy summoner 2 as normal, 10 BP. Because the primary must not be lower than secondary. At 3 and 4 I buy Paladin with a cost of 3-6, 40 BP. 50 BP total. For levels 5-12, costs resume as normal. As his statement doesn't say it takes up 2 levels per level, it costs 2 levels per level.
Vry
 Sorcerer 3,046, 565 posts
 Advanced Gnome
 Shadow's Caress
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 18:35
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
GM Arkrim's original/edited post:
C) Get rid of house rules discouraging multiclassing and instead implement just this one: Pay extra BP for the level difference between your two base classes.


I don't get it >.<
Josep Gavinho
 Wizard 1,987, 1319 posts
 Human Wizard
 Thaumaturgical Alliance
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 18:40
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
How many optimisers does it take to break a rule? ;)

The edited Arkrimís post is clearly not what I was saying.
Since I donít care overall, as Iím playing full spellcasters, Iíll withdraw from that conversation:)
Jayce the Tamer
 Summoner 2,543, 400 posts
 Human Summoner
Mon 12 Mar 2018
at 19:10
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
In reply to Vry (msg # 20):

Mine was in response to post 13. The edited post sounds like you are level 18. 2 levels one class and 16 in another. You pay your 18 levels per normal(5,000). Then you pay 2500, the difference between levels. 7500 total.

You have 18 levels, 9 one thing 9 another. You pay 5,000. There is no difference between levels.


21 levels 17500. 20 something 2 other. 7,500. 25000 BP total

The effect is a balance. In my opinion, 750,000 GP (7,500 BP) is a bit steep for +2 BAB, cha +6-8 to all saves, +2 CMD, slotless, cannot be taken away like an ioun stone, 20 HP  plus con mod, lay on hands, oh wait maybe it is about right? Ha. But it will become over priced the higger you go. Thats the only thing thay worries me.


Option c doesn't penalize prestige in its written format. Just base classes. So seems like 1 base, prestige, mythic is ok.

This message was last edited by the player at 19:21, Mon 12 Mar 2018.

GM Arkrim
 GM, 6430 posts
 Game Master
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 01:53
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Option C Explained:

Brawndo the Mutilator is a Half-Orc Antipaladin/Bloodrager

He will pay more BP to have this multiclass.

At the moment I'm thinking...

Antipaladin 1/Bloodrager 2 would be a difference of 1. It costs 0 BP to be level 1.
0 Extra BP cost.

Antipaladin 1/Bloodrager 3 would be a difference of 2. It costs 10 BP to be level 2.
10 Extra BP cost.

Antipaladin 1/Bloodrager 4 would be a difference of 3. It costs 17 BP to be level 3.
17 Extra BP cost.

Antipaladin 1/Bloodrager 6 would be a difference of 5. It costs 37 BP to be level 5.
37 Extra BP cost.

Antipaladin 1/Bloodrager 8  would be a difference of 7. It costs 75 BP to be level 7.
75 Extra BP cost.

Antipaladin 1/Bloodrager 12  would be a difference of 13. It costs 750 BP to be level 13.
750 Extra BP cost.

Antipaladin 1/Bloodrager 19 would be a difference of 18. It costs 5,000 BP to be level 18.
5,000 Extra BP cost.

----
Assuming normal progression, a 20th level character should spend about 1/2 their BP on levels. At 10,000 BP, that means roughly a 25% loss.

However, a level 5 character has about 74 BP, 37 in level and costing 17 for the dip (roughly a 23% loss).

This pattern keeps you at about a 20-25% loss in BP as a result of a dip 1.

HOWEVER...

You can offset this by changing your dip CLOSER to a dual class.

An Antipaladin 5, Bloodrager 15 for example has only a difference of 10 instead of 18 at 20th level. By keeping them close, their penalty drops to 250 BP of their 20,000 total, a penalty of only about 1.25%.

So:

1-level Dips 25% penalty
Dual class: 0% penalty

or somewhere in-between
Jayce the Tamer
 Summoner 2,543, 409 posts
 Human Summoner
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 01:59
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
That's even cheaper than my idea. I love option C.


Question while you are here.

20 levels base class, 2 levels prestige, 2 levels second base class, rest mythic.

Is this still 18 level penalty?

I want every single level of summoner. I'm not super fond of the mythic classes but Marshal works for me. I'd rather prestigre and gain another class.

This message was last edited by the player at 02:00, Tue 13 Mar 2018.

GM Arkrim
 GM, 6431 posts
 Game Master
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 03:53
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
In reply to Jayce the Tamer (msg # 24):

Mythic and Prestige don't count against you in any way. You're just only allowed to have 1 prestige and 1 mythic.

It the base classes which you're allowed to have 2 of that make this whole thing tricky.
Vry
 Sorcerer 3,046, 566 posts
 Advanced Gnome
 Shadow's Caress
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 05:56
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Given this example Iíll change my vote to option C.
I like that the (actual, not relative) penalty gets higher the more powerful the character is and the smaller the dip for that special class ability is. A level 18 Druid taking two fighter levels for extra feats, bab and just to be able to attack better in general is going to have to pay for stepping outside of its zone... if the same character goes 12druid/8 fighter for more of a combat focused hybrid but still with a heavy emphasis on herbs and stone henges, it will have to pay less as the fighter training is a bigger part of it...
Ankou
 Druid 2,965, 575 posts
 Oread Druid
 Thaumaturgical Alliance
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 09:35
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Thanks for the tip, petite gnome!

I suppose we only vote once per player, not per character, but if the latter the Ankou also votes C.
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6432 posts
 Game Master
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 13:33
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
You can vote per character.

Perks of having been here a while.
Latro Dectus
 Antipaladin 3,120, 1571 posts
 Drow N. Antipaladin
 Shadow's Caress
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 14:41
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
 I do actually like option C a lot better so i'll change my vote to C
Madam Opal
 Witch 1,014, 653 posts
 Ratfolk Witch
 Shadow's Caress
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 14:41
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
opal votes for C
Ugrim
 Barbarian 1,868, 535 posts
 Adv. Orc Barbar/Fighter
 Shadow's Caress
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 14:42
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Ugrim will also vote C
Josep Gavinho
 Wizard 1,987, 1324 posts
 Human Wizard
 Thaumaturgical Alliance
Tue 13 Mar 2018
at 14:54
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Latro, youíre the swing state in this;
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6439 posts
 Game Master
Thu 15 Mar 2018
at 03:18
Re: Poll #33: GM vs. Multiclassing
Okay...looks like C is pretty popular. I'll get on it.