Poll #34: Fixing Retcons.   Posted by GM Arkrim.Group: 0
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6442 posts
 Game Master
Sun 18 Mar 2018
at 05:05
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
Immediate actions, AOOs, and incomplete combat posts are slowing down the arena. I have some ideas on how to fix it and need feedback.

I do not want opinions. I want solutions.

I WILL fix these problems. "Keep it as is" IS NOT AN OPTION.

If you can't come up with a solution or are incapable of knowing the difference between an opinion and a solution, then you have no business posting anything in a poll thread.

If you DO have some ideas about this issue, now is the time.




48 HOUR RULE:
No longer optional. It is the REFs responsibility to call it NO MATTER WHAT. At the end of every match I will check the day I posted it and the number of rounds it took to finish. If it took more days than 2 * number of PCs * rounds, the referee's reward will be divided by the number of days beyond this number that it took.
     If you want to be a "good sport" about it because someone is facing a seriously difficult IRL problem, you can simply say "I take the total defense action" during your next turn.
     And yes, this means if you don't post initiatives within 2 days of me posting the match thread, it counts against the Referee. So Ref, feel free to call 48 hour rule for not posting initiatives on time.

ACT OUT OF TURN:
Hero points will no longer allow this.

ATTACKS OF OPPORTUNITY:
Everyone will automatically take all AOOs that they can in the order that they are given and will only make a basic weapon attack to deal damage (unless they have a special ability that adds other effects to their basic attack). You can choose to turn your AOOs "off" so that you take none but must do so in a private message to the referee INSIDE your combat post in the ACTIONS line for EACH round you do so (lasts until the start of your next turn).

In addition, everyone will post their melee weapon attack bonus and base damage in their combat posts privately to the referee. If they wield multiple weapons, list both and always assume you're using the most damaging one first. You cannot add extras to your attacks such as Power Attack or Rage, even if you'd normally be able to add them as a free action or on an AOO unless those effects are already active/always active (in which case you include them in your private to referee message).

If the referee checks the post before the opponent responds, they can roll attack and damage for them and let the provoker know.

Anyone that fails to post this attack and damage in their combat post automatically loses the ability to take an AOO.

They can choose to make it public if they want, allowing the opponent to roll AoO and damage against themselves, but this is optional.

CLARITY:
You will list your class' archetypes and/or alternate features in a private message to the referee right beside your class name. For example: Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager) 4/Fighter (Viking) 4

You will list all appropriate rolls with a label A/B or X/Y.

You will give a final total in your summary.

We need to be open about which actions are taken, which spells are cast, which class features are used.

If the referee is confused by your post, they will make a decision as to how to interpret. REGARDLESS what you meant to do, the referee's interpretation of your post is the final outcome of your post. MAKE YOUR SUMMARY SHORT SWEET AND SIMPLE. KEEP YOUR ROLLS IN ORDER. LABEL EVERYTHING PROPERLY. BE CLEAR, CONCISE, AND STRAIGHTFORWARD.

COMBAT POST ORDER:
Your ACTIONS line must include ALL your actions and must be in the proper order. If they are out of order and your opponent mentions it, you either get an automatic FOUL or your entire turn is undone and you take the total defense action instead.

IMMEDIATE ACTIONS:
IN EVERY SINGLE COMBAT POST, you must list in a private message to the ref ALL YOUR POSSIBLE IMMEDIATE ACTIONS and what will trigger them. Each spell, feat, or other special ability you have that can be activated as an immediate action will have ONE trigger you can list. You have a maximum of 25 words you can spend describing each trigger and you can only use the words "or", "and", and "but" each once in each trigger. If your strategy required more complexity than this, then it will not be allowed in this arena.

You can only take immediate actions if the appropriate trigger occurs and you will take the action upon the trigger. You have 48 hours to declare your immediate action after the person triggering it posts, regardless whether other people in the match are taking their turns. You will declare it ASAP (all rolls included) instead of waiting for the next person to post (if in a match with more than 2 PCs). Otherwise, your immediate action will be the FIRST action in your ACTION LINE.

INCOMPLETE POSTS:
It is henceforth illegal in this arena to post a combat post that does not include ALL your actions for that turn. You cannot say "pending rest of turn based on something else".
     Any players that even ATTEMPT to do this or even TRY to argue that they should be allowed to do so will be automatically given a FOUL and possibly disqualified and banned. I am seriously sick of this and I'm putting my foot down. Cut it out. ALL of you.

MINIONS:
Minions cannot "hold" or "ready" their actions. They always act immediately after you do in the initiative order. All minions will be labeled in alphanumerical order in which they are summoned. A1, B2, C3, etc. Numerical determines the order they were summoned, alpha determines their creature type. So if you summoned a horse and then summoned two crocodiles, the horse would be H1 and the crocs would be C2 and C3. If there are multiple summoners, add a prefix of the summoner's name to summons. Example: Jake vs. George. Jake summons a horse and then two crocs. George does the same. Monsters on the field are: JH1, JC2, JC3 and GH1, GC2, GC3.

PAUSING THE MATCH:
Every player will get 1 free pause. If you do not understand someone's post, you can pause the match to ask for clarification. This puts the 48 hour rule on pause until the REF or opponent clarifies. However, the REFEREE will make a call EVERY TIME A PAUSE IS USED: IF the ref felt it was a necessary pause, the person whose post is being questioned loses their pause. If the ref felt the clarification was unnecessary, the person asking for clarification loses their pause. Once you're out of pauses, every pause thereafter costs you 1 hero point. If you're out of hero points, every pause thereafter costs you a foul. Remember, 3 fouls and you're disqualified.
     Don't stop and ask for clarification until you've read the entire post and make sure you're clear on your posts so people don't keep pausing it to interpret chicken scratch. BE POLITE by BEING CLEAR.


SAVING THROWS:
From now on, everyone will have a "save defense" for each saving throw and attackers will roll their spell attacks against it on their turn.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/vari...rsRollAllTheDice.htm

TOTAL DEFENSE:
From now on, Total Defense does not add a +4 Dodge bonus to AC. Instead, it adds a +4 circumstance bonus to AC, CMD, and all saving throws.

This message was last edited by the GM at 04:22, Mon 19 Mar 2018.

Brakt
 Brawler 2,929, 621 posts
 Ogre Brawler
 The Order
Sun 18 Mar 2018
at 05:59
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
This is amazing, and I think it will really help things.  I know I've been one of the worst for confusing matters, but after my last fight with Ankou, I've been spending the time to make sure I triple check everything, and don't end up with any issues again.

One other thing to look at I think is matches like the Championship, where we end up with rounds and rounds of hiding, where no one can find anyone.

Should Hidden-on-the-map be a compulsory rule? This way we're not sitting and waiting for perception results every post?  If this is the case, I do think H-o-t-m needs a few things updates, such as providing total cover instead of normal cover, so that they aren't able to be targeted without passing a perception check.
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6443 posts
 Game Master
Sun 18 Mar 2018
at 08:06
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
In reply to Brakt (msg # 2):

Okay, "Hidden on the Map" option becoming mandatory or at least default sounds like an idea.
Jayce the Tamer
 Summoner 3,214, 432 posts
 Human Summoner
Sun 18 Mar 2018
at 08:18
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
Let's change Attacks of Opportunity to Attacks of Opportunity and Saves. Use same language with saves. Ref can roll the save  on behalf of either player and save time. Also same language, players may make it public if they want. Doubt it but at least a ref can knock it out. And brave players matches will go faster.

Is the delay action still legal? This is an action I use on myself but not my summons. I have always had them go in the order I summon them. And take their full turn. This is important to know for strategy.
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6444 posts
 Game Master
Sun 18 Mar 2018
at 08:28
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
In reply to Jayce the Tamer (msg # 4):

I like the idea of applying it to saves.

Yes and No. Its only legal for PCs, not minions. Minions always act on your turn immediately after you, regardless of what you do.
Josep Gavinho
 Wizard 1,987, 1346 posts
 Human Wizard
 Thaumaturgical Alliance
Sun 18 Mar 2018
at 08:55
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
I have a couple of suggestions:

Act out of Turn
Ban it as a use of hero point. It always results in retcon and I find it terribly unfair for someone who 1-has to spend resource on initiative to ensure they go first; and 2-revealed their strategy/build/spell only to be told that someone else actually goes first.
(If we’re concerned that Hero Point become less versatile, you could allow the Recall use)

Hidden on the Map
I agree with the need to make this a standard.
We may need to dust off that rule though.

Immediate actions
Should only be allowed if they’re readied.
Not per the “ready action” action, because that is a standard action in itself, but something similar.
I’ve used immediate actions to interrupt someone’s actions before, and I find it quite unfair.
Around a tabletop game, you would be given an option to use an immediate action when a trigger happens, but you wouldn’t know the result of a whole turn before you can decide whether to use that immediate action or not.

Which actions are taken
 We need to be open about which actions are taken, which spells are cast, which class features are used.
I know it reveals more than we want to about our building, but if we don’t we always end up with confusing posts and having to retcon because something didn’t play out the way it was supposed to because someone didn’t know that this or that effect was in place.
Maybe that is a bit extreme, so I’m rather throwing the idea out there, if someone has solutions for a better way to manage this.
Vry
 Sorcerer 3,046, 578 posts
Sun 18 Mar 2018
at 12:21
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons

This message was deleted by the player at 12:45, Sun 18 Mar 2018.

GM Arkrim
 GM, 6445 posts
 Game Master
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 03:45
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
In reply to Josep Gavinho (msg # 6):

All good suggestions. Incorporating now.
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6446 posts
 Game Master
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 04:14
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
MORE POSSIBLE CHANGES

SAVING THROWS:
From now on, everyone will have a "save defense" for each saving throw and attackers will roll their spell attacks against it on their turn.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/vari...rsRollAllTheDice.htm

TOTAL DEFENSE:
From now on, Total Defense does not add a +4 Dodge bonus to AC. Instead, it adds a +4 circumstance bonus to AC, CMD, and all saving throws.

Example:
Example Combat Post:
   ROUND: 1 (Initiative: XX)
POSITION: XX
 ACTIONS: Cast Spell (Standard), Move to XX (Move), draw blade (Free Part of Move), XX (Swift)
 HP: 00/00 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 00; FFAC: 00; Touch: 00
CMD: 00; FFCMD: 00; FFTAC: 00
Fortitude:00; Reflex: 00; Will: 00

EFFECTS: XXX
   GEAR: XXX
   USES: XXX

MINIONS:
NameOfMinion
POSITION: A2
 ACTIONS: XYZ
 HP: 00/00 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 00; FFAC: 00; Touch: 00
CMD: 00; FFCMD: 00; FFTAC: 00
Fortitude:00; Reflex: 00; Will: 00


DICE ROLLS:

   SUMMARY: So and so does the thing and deals 28 damage to Such and Such.

This message was last edited by the GM at 04:22, Mon 19 Mar 2018.

Jayce the Tamer
 Summoner 3,214, 435 posts
 Human Summoner
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 04:47
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
Could we leave it as a dodge bonus(as that stacks with our saves) because circumstance bonuses don't stack? Unless we are saying this one does? As you already have a rule that untyped bonuses are competence or circumstance. Such as defending weapons are just AC Bonus(not luck, enhancement, dodge, sacred, etc), which would transfer to a circumstance(always on just by being held).

Dodge bonus to ac, cmd and all saving throws works just as well.

Example Combat Post:
   ROUND: 1 (Initiative: XX)
POSITION: XX
 ACTIONS: Cast Spell (Standard), Move to XX (Move), draw blade (Free Part of Move), XX (Swift)
 HP: 00/00 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 00; FFAC: 00; Touch: 00
CMD: 00; FFCMD: 00; FFTAC: 00
Fortitude:00; Reflex: 00; Will: 00

EFFECTS: XXX
   GEAR: XXX
   USES: XXX


[Private to ref:AOO Greatsword d20+14, 2D6+8, 4 AoOs available 10ft reach due to large]
^ add in.

[Private to ref:Immediate action, feather fall if any falling occurs, Immediate Heal summon via Instant Restoration if Summon X drops to 10 HP or less.]
^ add in.

MINIONS:
NameOfMinion
POSITION: A2
 ACTIONS: XYZ
 HP: 00/00 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 00; FFAC: 00; Touch: 00
CMD: 00; FFCMD: 00; FFTAC: 00
Fortitude:00; Reflex: 00; Will: 00


DICE ROLLS:

   SUMMARY: So and so does the thing and deals 28 damage to Such and Such.

This message was last edited by the player at 05:13, Mon 19 Mar 2018.

GM Arkrim
 GM, 6447 posts
 Game Master
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 05:17
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
In reply to Jayce the Tamer (msg # 10):

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics...ity-scores/glossary/:
Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don’t generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.


No. It will stack. Also makes it easy because it will apply to all possible defenses even when flat-footed (making it viable in case "all else fails").

Good call with the example private text though.

This message was last edited by the GM at 05:24, Mon 19 Mar 2018.

Jayce the Tamer
 Summoner 3,214, 436 posts
 Human Summoner
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 06:02
Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
Learn something new everyday.
Latro Dectus
 Antipaladin 3,120, 1579 posts
 Drow N. Antipaladin
 Shadow's Caress
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 09:29
Re: Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
GM Arkrim:
SAVING THROWS:
From now on, everyone will have a "save defense" for each saving throw and attackers will roll their spell attacks against it on their turn.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/vari...rsRollAllTheDice.htm


I'm completely on board with the saving throws variant, mostly because it gives my yet another hard number that's about to skyrocket above 30.

However, I do notice that the variant does not mention anything for class abilities.

I'm going to go ahead and suggest that in place of "Spell level," the term "1/2 class level, rounded up" be used when rolling to determine if someone passes or fails vs a class ability. I'm suggesting rounded up simply for the reason that by the time a class that relies on class abilities has reached lvl 19, full casters have been tossing around lvl 9 spells for years. Give the non casters/ non-full casters a break on this one.
Josep Gavinho
 Wizard 1,987, 1351 posts
 Human Wizard
 Thaumaturgical Alliance
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 09:50
Re: Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
Love that saving throws variant.

One thing though, does that mean one can use hero points on the attack rather than on the défense then?
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6449 posts
 Game Master
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 13:02
Re: Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 13):
No rounding up, but otherwise yes.

Josep Gavinho:
Love that saving throws variant.

One thing though, does that mean one can use hero points on the attack rather than on the défense then?

Yes. Just by reading hero point rerolls that means you're good.

SIDE NOTE: Ongoing effects that have you roll saves to end still have the victim roll saving throws. This new variant merely means that ALL rolls (except Immediate actions and AOOs) are done by the person who's taking their turn.
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6451 posts
 Game Master
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 14:29
Re: Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
Also, identifying spells,Stealth checks, etc.. Let's not roll for that.


Let's just have people put DC10 + their skill bonus on their sheet.

Spellcraft DC15
Perception DC14
etc.

So when you use Stealth or cast a spell, you roll to determine your success against someone else and reveal your spell if you fail.

(vs. Spellcraft to identify it's always 5 + spell level).
(vs. Perception it's always Disguise or Stealth vs. DC)

etc.
Latro Dectus
 Antipaladin 3,120, 1580 posts
 Drow N. Antipaladin
 Shadow's Caress
Mon 19 Mar 2018
at 18:40
Re: Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
In reply to GM Arkrim (msg # 16):

so then as an example

Spells Magee casts a lvl 5 spell and rolls 1d20+10
Stealthy McStealthface has no ranks in spellcraft so they wouldn't have a DC as spellcraft can't be used untrained and Spells automatically passes against Stealthy.
Looks Von Lookingston has a +10 modifier to spellcraft due to ranks and ability mods so thier DC would be 20. Spells Magee must rolla a 10 or higher so that Looks von Lookingston would not know what the spell is.


Stealthy McStealthface has a +16 to their stealth due to high dex mods and full ranks so will roll 1d20+16
Spells Magee made the mistake of not putting ranks in perception and as such will only get their wisdom mod to perception for a DC of 14.
Looks von Lookingston has max ranks in perception, a special tool, a magic item, and a good wisdom modifier giving them a Perception DC of 30.
Stealthy must roll a 14 or higher to succeed vs both Spells and Looks on his one roll to hide in the arena.

Is this how you imagined it would go down? One roll vs everyone in the arena, or should it be one roll for one opponent?
Bonus round, distance modifiers? how will that work against multiple opponents because unless you're equidistant from each of your opponents, you can't necessarily add a distance mod to a single roll. It either needs to be logged in the Reason for Roll and added after the fact for each opponent, or we roll individually which, against certain hord bringing combatants, can get problematic regardless of if you're rolling individually or logging distance in the "reason for roll" section.
GM Arkrim
 GM, 6452 posts
 Game Master
Tue 20 Mar 2018
at 01:32
Re: Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 17):

Yes. Well done.


GM Arkrim
 GM, 6459 posts
 Game Master
Sun 25 Mar 2018
at 08:16
Re: Poll #34: Fixing Retcons
All these rules are now in play.

Referees, please let me know if you need guidance on them:

http://sites.google.com/site/t...ules/running-a-match

This message was last edited by the GM at 08:20, Sun 25 Mar 2018.