I guess i'm using sound then. :P
There has been quite a bit of it during this combat.

As far as size modifier to stealth go, I would say it’s +4 as you’re trying to spot individual squares (small size) rather than the whole wall (which you know where it is).

at the very least it would be a +0 to stealth considering the wall takes up the entirety of each 5x5 square it occupies. and at 10 square feet per caster level, it sounds like it's basically a large object stacked on top of its-self repeatedly.

But i'll leave it to Boadicea to tell me whats up.

Myself as long as you spend the effort I will give you the piece of information you want, not all of it unless you pull a trick or two out.

I mean, perception lets me know where invisible creatures and things are. I dont see why i wouldn't know how tall this wall is at this point.

Perception lets you « perceive » where invisible creatures are because they still have a breath, a heartbeat, a scent... all things a wal doesn’t have.

Tell me where it says i can't pinpoint an inanimate object in the same ways i can pinpoint a creature and i'll drop it.

If an inanimate wall that i've face planted on and isn't moving anywhere gets to benefit from 50% concealment just because its invisible and that's what the rules say, then surly i can perceive how tall an invisible wall is because that is what the rules allow me to do with a perception check.

I can shout at it and see how the sound reflects back. I can look at my wall of bones and see how the skeletal arms are reaching and banging their arms agains the Force wall. It can reach as high as +2 so if their arms are flat against an invisible wall there then I know at the very least it goes to +2. Heck, maybe I can smell the raw magic. Who's to say Force effects doesn't give off a scent of some kind.

The rules don't make sense sometimes. It makes no sense to me that I have a 50% chance to miss an invisible wall that completely block all forms of movement across it's surface but thats what the rules say so thats what we do.
Likewise it doesn't really make since that someone can just roll perception and figure out how tall an invisible wall is but the numbers are there. I've laid out the math. The wall has a lower base stealth check than Latro has a base perception DC, not accounting for distance. the distance is the only thing I can't know because it's something that is hidden from me.

If you really want me to declare it, Perception has always been a free action at the start of a turn and that is what i'm using.


Here's the math again, just so we're on the same page.
The wall has +40 to stealth because it is both invisible and non moving.
Because it cannot actively make stealth checks, by arena rules, its stealth check is assumed to be -10 + stealth mod + modifiers
Inanimate objects have 0 Dexterity, giving them a -5 dex modifier.
this gives the wall a stealth check of 25.
Latro's Perception DC is 36.
The wall fails to beat this.
Assuming the wall gets no size bonuses or penalties to stealth, Latro can perceive and pinpoint any space the wall takes up a maximum of 110 feet way.

This is no longer a question of if Latro can do this or not.
This is the math the rules as they are written have given us regardless of if they make sense.
Now, i will ask again.
How high does Latro estimate this wall to be?
To what space can Latro perceive this wall rising to?

You do know that the free check is just general info what you are asking for is specific so it requires a move you are saying that Latro is investing such an action to know how tall the wall is?

That's malarky if i've ever heard it. I don't know who told you that but the arena rules are very specific.

In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 198):

With your free check I will tell you the wall is as marked on the map that is a take location, if you would like specifics that requires you to shout/study wall arms/... Is more than free action
This message was last updated by the player at 13:01, Tue 26 June 2018.

Fine. I guess i'm not doing much else with my turn anyways at this point. I dont have time to make much of a post anymore now that this has dragged on as it is and id rather not call You-Know-Who to dispute this cause knowing my luck he'll hit me with a penalty for calling him once while he let Josep get away with it twice in a row.

Give me 30 minutes, i'll have a post up.

Yes, the ref has been so mean to you. Poor little thing. Shall I call you a wambulance ?

I'm not the one that forgot to put hight indicators on their dragon breath, Josep. That was your own fault.

my issue comes from the ref's arbitrary decision that free perception checks don't merit as much information as a perception check made as a move action even though area rules state no such thing.

Latro takes a step closer to the wall, completely unfazed by the now flying fallen angel and takes a moment to truly taken in its invisibleness. Using his remaining senses, Latro shouts at the wall, notices how his wall of bones reacts with it and even tries to see if he can smell the raw magical energies exuding off of it in order to gain a better grasp of how tall this thing is.

Tiaca, meanwhile, moves to a better position and summons a mist most obscuring.


L = Latro
T = Tiaca
a = Avi
J = Josep
P = Pedro
f = Wall of Fire
Je5 = Erinyes
" " = Black Tentacles (SR doesn't apply, difficult terrain)
w = Wall of Force
b = Wall of Bone (Rises to +1, 10 feet tall)
~ = Obscuring Mist

   ROUND: 8 (Initiative: 19)
POSITION: Q8 to P9
 ACTIONS: End Boot haste effect (Free), 5-foot Step to P9 (Free), Move Action Perception on Wall of force to know hight (Move), Call Fiendish Boon into Falcata (Standard)

 HP: 161/225 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 28; FFAC: 23; Touch: 15
CMD: 35; FFCMD: 30; FFTAC: 10
DR 10/Magic, SR 26
Fortitude: 36; Reflex: 33; Will: 38
Immunities: Electricity, Cold, Fire, Disease, Undead Stuff

AC Boosts:  AC and CMD cap at 46
SKILL DCS: Perception DC36, Spellcraft DC31,

EFFECTS:
Aura of Evil
Aura of Despair (Out to 10 feet: -2 to all saving throws. Does not stack with saving throw reduction of Aura of Cowardice)
Aura of Cowardice (Out to 10 feet: Lose immunity to fear effects or -4 to saving throw vs fear effects if not immune)
DC 26 Will save to negate each aura, starting with Aura of Despair.
Choker Aura 1 (out to 120 feet: -2 to perception checks if good aligned.)
Choker Aura 2 (out to 30 feet: Shaken while within 30 feet if good aligned.)
DC 18 will to negate Choker auras. Aura 1 happens each round. Aura two happens once every 24 hours.
Boots of Haste (6/10) (Innactive)
Source Severance (9/33)
Wall of Bone (7/24 rounds)
Unfettered Shirt (10 minutes)
Fiendish Boon (1/13)
Obscuring Mist (1/9) -


   GEAR: Falcata, O-Yori, Headband, Cloak, Choker, Shirt, Belt, Boots, Ioun Stone, Tattoo, Potion #1 x1, Potion #2 x1, Tools x3, Free Gear (ACP: 0, Load: Light)

   USES:
 - Spells: 1st 0/X, 2nd 0/X, 3rd 0/X, 4th 1/X,
 - SLAs: Drow 0/X, Fiendish Boon 1/X
 - SUs: Smite Good 0/X, ToC 3/X, Devastating Blast 0/X, Phantom Mount 0/X, Mythic Power 1/X
 - Other: Scroll #1, Scroll #2

 MINIONS:
 Tiaca, Latro’s Handmaiden
 Position: G9
HP: 55/63
AC 12 - TAC 12 - FFAC 10
CMD 15 - FFCMD 13 - FFTAC 10
FORT 6 - REF 6 - WILL 11
 Effect: None
 Gear: Cloak, Headband, Belt, Unholy Symbol, Potion #3 x1, Scroll #3 x1, free gear (ACP 0, Load: Light)
 Actions: Move to E8 (Move), Cast Obscuring Mist (Standard)
USES:
 - Spells: 1st 1/X, 2nd 0/X, 3rd 2/X
 - Other: Scroll #4 1/1

 Avi, Tiaca’s Familiar
 Position: Where Tiaca is
HP: 23/31
AC 19 - TAC 17 - FFAC 14
CMD 10 - FFCMD 8 - FFTAC 12
FORT 2 - REF 5 - WILL 7
 Effect: None
 Gear: None (ACP 0, Load: Light)
 Actions: Be inside Tiaca’s backpack (free)


DICE ROLLS:

08:48, Today: Latro Dectus rolled 41 using 1d20+26 with rolls of 15.  Move Action Perception.


SUMMARY: Latro Takes some extra time to figure out this wall. Tiaca shrouds herself in Obscuring Mist



OOC: Arbitrary perception checks are arbitrary.

I suppose True Seeing does nothing against Obscuring Mist...

Latro I have ref'd a couple of your and Josep's match and I know on more than one occasion I have reminded you/him that specific information is a move action, and that was just on you guys wanting each other's location (specifying that you want his or he wanted your location)

The Wall of Force goes to the cieling except in M11.

Yeah amazing how something simple as mist can mess up "True Seeing"

Josep walks away and casts a spell, after having given instructions to the Erinye to shoot the obscure Tiaca.

 She flew up just a bit and released three arrows, two of which struck true.     


L = Latro
T = Tiaca
a = Avi
J = Josep
P = Pedro
f = Wall of Fire
Je5 = Erinyes
" " = Black Tentacles (SR doesn't apply, difficult terrain)
w = Wall of Force (full height except in M11)
b = Wall of Bone (Rises to +1, 10 feet tall)
~ = Obscuring Mist


<tt>
ROUND: 9 (37)
POSITION: M13
 ACTIONS:
 - Yell after The Fury (free) 
 - Walk to A12 (move)
 - Cast some spell (standard)

 HP: 212/221 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 33; FFAC: 19; Touch: 19
CMD: 35; FFCMD: 26; FFTAC: 11
Fort: 33; Reflex: 33; Will: 35

EFFECTS: - SM7: 8/17, WoF 9/17, BT 8/17, AS 7/34, Haste 7/17, Spell 7th 1/17

   GEAR: - Ring, Stone, Rod, Cloak, Headband, Helmet, 4 Diamonds, Ioun Stone, Bracer, Buckler, Tattoo, Scroll, Champion Belt, Free Gear,  (ACP - 0, Load - Light),
   USES: -  Spells 1st 0/X, 2nd 0/X, 3rd 1/X, 4th 5/X, 5th 1/X, 6th 0/X, 7th 3/X, 8th 2/X, 9th 0/X, scroll 1/1; diamond 3/4, Prescience 3/X, Foretell 2/17

MINIONS:
The Furies (Erinyes)
Je5 - position K9,+6
 HP: 112/112
 AC: 23; FFAC: 17; Touch: 16
CMD: 33; FFCMD: 27; FFTAC: 10
Fort: 24; Reflex: 23; Will: 18; SR19
Effect: Augment Summoning, True Seeing
Actions: Perception (free), Fly up (5ft step), full attack (full round)

Minion HD cap: 9  = 9/68

DICE ROLLS:
21:03, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 7,1,11,2 using d8+6,d6,d8+6,d6 with rolls of 1,1,5,2.  Erinye Damage .
21:03, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 1,65,58 using d100,d100,d100 with rolls of 1,65,58.  Erinye Miss chance .
21:02, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 23,16,18 using D20+14,d20+14,d20+9 with rolls of 9,2,9.  Erinye Full Attack Bow vs Tiaca (rapid shot) .
21:01, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 33 using 1d20+19 with rolls of 14.  Erinye Fly (less than half speed).
21:01, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 32 using 1d20+16 with rolls of 16.  erinye perception
 - Tiaca takes a measly 21 damage

SUMMARY:
Josep moves out of sight, Erinye flies up and shoots.

24 rounds to go!
 

So as i understand it, The only point i can pass through the force wall is at M11+9?

That is not what was said, read it again and the wall of force description

In reply to Boadicea (msg # 208):

So i'm guessing the free action perception on my turn won't get me what i want to know, right?

In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 209):

yep, need to be looking close or you will miss it

Latro snaps his fingers and a point in space not too far from Latro explode in tiny multicolored particles, instantly coating anything and anyone  within 5 feet of the explosion.
While he is doing this, Tiaca desperately scours her bag for a potion. Finding it, she rips the cork off and downs the whole thing in a single chug, healing about as much as the potion could.


L = Latro
T = Tiaca
a = Avi
J = Josep
f = Wall of Fire
Je5 = Erinyes
" " = Black Tentacles (SR doesn't apply, difficult terrain)
w = Wall of Force
b = Wall of Bone (Rises to +1, 10 feet tall)
~ = Obscuring Mist

   ROUND: 9 (Initiative: 19)
POSITION: M10
 ACTIONS: Use Faerie Fire SLA on square M10+5 (Standard), Move to M10 (Move)

 HP: 161/225 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 27; FFAC: 23; Touch: 15
CMD: 36; FFCMD: 30; FFTAC: 10
DR 10/Magic, SR 26
Fortitude: 36; Reflex: 33; Will: 38
Immunities: Electricity, Cold, Fire, Disease, Undead Stuff

AC Boosts:  AC and CMD cap at 46
SKILL DCS: Perception DC36, Spellcraft DC31,

EFFECTS:
Aura of Evil
Aura of Despair (Out to 10 feet: -2 to all saving throws. Does not stack with saving throw reduction of Aura of Cowardice)
Aura of Cowardice (Out to 10 feet: Lose immunity to fear effects or -4 to saving throw vs fear effects if not immune)
DC 26 Will save to negate each aura, starting with Aura of Despair.
Choker Aura 1 (out to 120 feet: -2 to perception checks if good aligned.)
Choker Aura 2 (out to 30 feet: Shaken while within 30 feet if good aligned.)
DC 18 will to negate Choker auras. Aura 1 happens each round. Aura two happens once every 24 hours.
Boots of Haste (6/10)
Source Severance (10/33)
Wall of Bone (8/24 rounds)
Unfettered Shirt (10 minutes)
Fiendish Boon (2/13)
Obscuring Mist (2/9) -


   GEAR: Falcata, O-Yori, Headband, Cloak, Choker, Shirt, Belt, Boots, Ioun Stone, Tattoo, Potion #1 x1, Potion #2 x1, Tools x3, Free Gear (ACP: 0, Load: Light)

   USES:
 - Spells: 1st 0/X, 2nd 0/X, 3rd 0/X, 4th 1/X,
 - SLAs: Drow 0/X, Fiendish Boon 1/X
 - SUs: Smite Good 0/X, ToC 3/X, Devastating Blast 0/X, Phantom Mount 0/X, Mythic Power 1/X
 - Other: Scroll #1, Scroll #2

 MINIONS:
 Tiaca, Latro’s Handmaiden
 Position: E8
HP: 42/63
AC 12 - TAC 12 - FFAC 10
CMD 15 - FFCMD 13 - FFTAC 10
FORT 6 - REF 6 - WILL 11
 Effect: None
 Gear: Cloak, Headband, Belt, Unholy Symbol, Scroll #3 x1, free gear (ACP 0, Load: Light)
 Actions: 5-foot to E7 (Free), Draw Potion (Move), Drink Potion (Standard)
USES:
 - Spells: 1st 1/X, 2nd 0/X, 3rd 2/X
 - Other: Scroll #4 1/1

 Avi, Tiaca’s Familiar
 Position: Where Tiaca is
HP: 23/31
AC 19 - TAC 17 - FFAC 14
CMD 10 - FFCMD 8 - FFTAC 12
FORT 2 - REF 5 - WILL 7
 Effect: None
 Gear: None (ACP 0, Load: Light)
 Actions: Be inside Tiaca’s backpack (free)


DICE ROLLS:


09:23, Today: Latro Dectus rolled 8 using 1d8+1 with rolls of 7.  Tiaca, Potion of Cure Light Wounds.


SUMMARY: Latro casts Faerie Fire in an attempt to expose the wall’s weak point. Tiaca drinks a potion to help with the pain.



OOC: So with this SLA, Latro covers everything in green light particles, revealing invisible creatures and objects. I should now know, without any perception checks, if the wall of force extends to +4, +5, and +6 in M11

faerie fire... nice move.

Josep stays away.

 Erinye flew up just a bit and released three arrows, one of which struck true on Tiaca.     



L = Latro
T = Tiaca
a = Avi
J = Josep
f = Wall of Fire
Je5 = Erinyes
" " = Black Tentacles (SR doesn't apply, difficult terrain)
w = Wall of Force
b = Wall of Bone (Rises to +1, 10 feet tall)
~ = Obscuring Mist

<tt>
ROUND: 10 (37)
POSITION: A13
 ACTIONS:
 - Yell after The Fury (free) 
 - 5ft step to A13
 - Ready Action (standard)

 HP: 212/221 (0 nonlethal)
 AC: 33; FFAC: 19; Touch: 19
CMD: 35; FFCMD: 26; FFTAC: 11
Fort: 33; Reflex: 33; Will: 35

EFFECTS: - SM7: 9/17, WoF 10/17, BT 9/17, AS 8/34, Haste 8/17, Spell 7th 2/17

   GEAR: - Ring, Stone, Rod, Cloak, Headband, Helmet, 4 Diamonds, Ioun Stone, Bracer, Buckler, Tattoo, Scroll, Champion Belt, Free Gear,  (ACP - 0, Load - Light),
   USES: -  Spells 1st 0/X, 2nd 0/X, 3rd 1/X, 4th 5/X, 5th 1/X, 6th 0/X, 7th 3/X, 8th 2/X, 9th 0/X, scroll 1/1; diamond 3/4, Prescience 3/X, Foretell 2/17

MINIONS:
The Furies (Erinyes)
Je5 - position J9,+7
 HP: 112/112
 AC: 23; FFAC: 17; Touch: 16
CMD: 33; FFCMD: 27; FFTAC: 10
Fort: 24; Reflex: 23; Will: 18; SR19
Effect: Augment Summoning, True Seeing
Actions: Perception (free), Fly up (5ft step), full attack (full round)

Minion HD cap: 9  = 9/68

DICE ROLLS:
22:48, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 10,3 using d8+6,d6 with rolls of 4,3.  Erinye damage.
22:47, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 14,45,60 using d100,d100,d100 with rolls of 14,45,60.  Erinye miss chance .
22:46, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 26 using 1d20+14 with rolls of 12.  Erinye full attack (bow, rapid shot) (there was a typo in the second attack).
22:44, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 23,34,14 using d20+14,20+14,d20+9 with rolls of 9,5.  Erinye full-attack (bow, rapid shot) .
22:43, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 31 using 1d20+19 with rolls of 12.  Erinye Fly Check (less than half speed).
22:43, Today: Josep Gavinho rolled 19 using 1d20+16 with rolls of 3.  Erinye Perception.


SUMMARY:
Josep doesn't move, Erinye flies up and shoots, Tiaca takes 13 damage.

23 rounds to go! 

So, free perception, Latro observes the faerie fire he made last turn.
what does he see?

01:29, Today: Latro Dectus rolled 34 using 1d20+26 with rolls of 8.  free perception ,if needed. Otherwise Perception DC is 36.

In reply to Latro Dectus (msg # 213):

The East side of M11 there is a 3" gap floor to ceiling between the wall of force and the wall in N11
This message was last edited by the player at 10:41, Fri 29 June 2018.